Poll: Do you believe the MtGox trustee is saying the truth?

[RamonBTC]

I agree that there is two scenarios that the mtgox controversies are might be lying or maybe telling the truth. What if they do both, they might hiding some important information between the lines. We can’t judge them, but we can’t trust them again? or we must because this is what bitcoin community build of, by trusting each and everyone.

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[vintages]

It looks like this story is getting twisted day after day. I don't know if it's their rivals that are getting back at them to put them in more bigger mess by paying the media to write controversial articles about them. But from the stories I read and followed up;  it is said that they 'sold' the coins not 'moved' them. And they even confirm that more will be sold out then. I will be remain neutral on this till all is resolved.

[MoonJeina]

Option 1: Yes, he did sell the coins at these givens dates, which means, he is lying, and he did indeed sell:



https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-07/bitcoins-tokyo-whale-sells-400m-bitcoin-bitcoin-cash

Optcion 2: No, he did not sell on these days, only moved the coins, which triggered panic sellers into believing these coins were getting dumped:

https://cointelegraph.com/news/breaking-trustee-of-infamous-mt-gox-denies-btc-bch-sales-affected-crypto-markets

The official statement in MtGox website:

https://www.mtgox.com/img/pdf/20180317_qa.pdf

Due the polarizing opinions on this subject, I would a poll on it. In September we should have some clarifying news so the poll will remain open until around next December.

I don't think that is lying about it anymore . I mean , the statistics are clear and there was certainly a big sell off that led to some crash that lasted for like more than two days . There will be bad consequences if someone find out that MT Gox is still not selling or sold its bitcoins as being a public figure any such lie might cost him a big crisis . The other way out maybe that they have invested in bitcoin and the things are still under the wrap.

[dothebeats]

The trustee hasn't laid any definite dates on when he liquidated those huge amount of coins, and no, it's not believable that he only moved these coins and not sold it because the trail is there, and why would he be moving it if the address needs to be monitored since it's needed to pay off their creditors? His stories are not panning out, and whether he admits it or not, the market has obviously crashed due to those coins being sold.

[cellard]

The trustee hasn't laid any definite dates on when he liquidated those huge amount of coins, and no, it's not believable that he only moved these coins and not sold it because the trail is there, and why would he be moving it if the address needs to be monitored since it's needed to pay off their creditors? His stories are not panning out, and whether he admits it or not, the market has obviously crashed due to those coins being sold.

Well there's money coming in and out of that MtGox address for some reason... something strange is going on. In the last few months someone has put there around 50,000 BTC. Why would they be sending bitcoins into an address that just has to sell whatever's inside? Literally everything must be sell as far as I know.

There are missing pieces in this piece that we don't know. We don't know if the coins where sold when they moved somewhere else and we don't know why someone is filling the address back with more BTC.

[exstasie]

The trustee hasn't laid any definite dates on when he liquidated those huge amount of coins, and no, it's not believable that he only moved these coins and not sold it because the trail is there, and why would he be moving it if the address needs to be monitored since it's needed to pay off their creditors? His stories are not panning out, and whether he admits it or not, the market has obviously crashed due to those coins being sold.

What if I told you the market was going to crash anyway?

It's impossible to know either way, but it's not logical to attribute the bear market to the MtGox trustee. This is no different than blaming the 2014 bear market on the MtGox collapse.

In both cases, we had just experienced massive, unsustainable uptrends. All markets (like all things) eventually experience mean reversion.

Well there's money coming in and out of that MtGox address for some reason... something strange is going on. In the last few months someone has put there around 50,000 BTC. Why would they be sending bitcoins into an address that just has to sell whatever's inside? Literally everything must be sell as far as I know.

Why do you think that? I believe all liabilities (at time of bankruptcy) were converted to JPY. That means the trustee controls assets far and above the actual liabilities now, due to BTC's price rise.

Sell everything, why?

[cellard]

Sell everything, why?

How are you so sure that the trustee has already sold everything in order to pay all creditors, including Karpeles and other MtGox associates? Remember that Karpeles will get his share back too. I don't believe the official version.

In any case, what do you think that will happen to the rest of these coins? When a government controls it, they usually don't hold the Bitcoin (because they are idiots) they will dump it in (hopefully) an OTC auction, the problem is we have seen amateurism with this case, so they may dump it on the market, wouldn't be surprised.

[exstasie]

Sell everything, why?

How are you so sure that the trustee has already sold everything in order to pay all creditors, including Karpeles and other MtGox associates?

Nobody can be sure without seeing the books, but that's how the math works. ~800K bitcoins lost = $480M at bankruptcy. ~200k of those bitcoins were "found" by Mt Gox, leaving the BTC insolvency ~ $360M.

The trustee recovered ~ $405 million from selling BTC and BCH. The vast majority of claims were denied by the trustee. The court approved only $414 million total in claims. The $405 million recovered by the trustee roughly covers this. That leaves only Coinlab (consensus seems to be that $75M lawsuit doesn't have legs and will settle for pennies on the dollar if anything).

I did forget to account for court fees, which are upwards of $55M now. It's not clear to me when the court takes payment for that or if they already have. If not, we're probably looking at no more than $75M in outstanding liabilities, based on public information.

Anyway, I was just responding to your point that everything must be sold. That's not true at all. It partly depends whether the court approves civil rehabilitation proceedings. If so, some BTC creditors will gladly take payment in BTC rather than from the $405 million the trustee is sitting on. The trustee seems more open to it now than in 2014. The main problem is time because of Peter Vessenes and Coinlab.

Remember that Karpeles will get his share back too. I don't believe the official version.

In bankruptcy, creditors come before shareholders. Creditors need to be fully repaid before Karpeles gets anything.

In any case, what do you think that will happen to the rest of these coins? When a government controls it, they usually don't hold the Bitcoin (because they are idiots) they will dump it in (hopefully) an OTC auction, the problem is we have seen amateurism with this case, so they may dump it on the market, wouldn't be surprised.

The case can be moved to civil rehabilitation. In that case, the company would be restructured and protected from the Coinlab lawsuit. And BTC creditors can legally take payment in BTC rather than JPY/USD.

If all liabilities are covered and suits are settled, there's no cause for bankruptcy proceedings. If not civil rehabilitation, then any remaining funds go to equity holders (Karpeles).

[pereira4]

I doubt the funds will ever sent back in bitcoin. They will sell first, then pay them in whatever fiat currencies where the person is residing at. In all previous cases, the coins were never sent back, they were sold first.

Can you mention a previous case in which the people involved got paid in BTC? I don't think this ever happened.

[exstasie]

I doubt the funds will ever sent back in bitcoin. They will sell first, then pay them in whatever fiat currencies where the person is residing at. In all previous cases, the coins were never sent back, they were sold first.

Can you mention a previous case in which the people involved got paid in BTC? I don't think this ever happened.

Can you name a previous bankruptcy case that resembles the Mt Gox debacle, where assets significantly outweigh liabilities? And where assets are denominated mostly in BTC? It's completely unprecedented. Bitcoin has only existed for nine years. Of course there isn't court precedent for every possible situation.

Few bankruptcy cases, especially outside of civil rehab, end with solvent entities with significant budget surpluses. The court's mandate is to repay debt holders, then equity holders. The only way to compel debt holders to accept payment is to use legal tender, so the liquidation of BTC/BCH to cover outstanding claims in JPY was expected.

But nobody seems to be able to point to a legal reason why remaining BTC beyond outstanding claims would need to be liquidated.

[CryptoBry]

Hasn't it already been determined that he sold in such a way that wouldn't affect the market price? He's said just that in his statement. It's implied that they sold OTC as there was a mention of ensuring the security of the transactions. If that were true, then it doesn't really matter when they were sold. Heck, even if he did sell at those dates through a regular exchange, what of it? We always say that Bitcoin is for controlling your own money, having uncensorable transactions with no intervention, etc. so shouldn't he be free to do whatever he pleases? The entire issue is way overblown in my opinion.

And I fully agree. In case the whole sell-off affected the price movement of Bitcoin then it is something we have to accept and be used to because I am sure this whole thing may not be the last...there can be similar stories later on. This is actually a strength test for Bitcoin showing us how agile is the network and the market.

[nc50lc]

Why is he lying if he really sold his coins over that period?
There was a statement in the MtGox gox site similarly saying that "he sold some 'safe' amounts last December, January and February".
He certainly didn't lied, but in the poll, the second option must have happened because of the first option.

I agree that there is two scenarios that the mtgox controversies are might be lying or maybe telling the truth. What if they do both, they might hiding some important information between the lines. We can’t judge them, but we can’t trust them again? or we must because this is what bitcoin community build of, by trusting each and everyone.

Actually, Bitcoin was built by the community in order to directly transact to anyone without handling your money to someone you cannot trust.
Persons behind it didn't trust each other, that's why the code is hosted as "open source".