Bitcoin Forum

According to this video, https://www.facebook.com/cnbccrypto/videos/1688689147880991/

Bitcoin is considered as property and therefore whenever you sell your BTCto cash, there are two transactions. You first sell the ‘property’ to cash value then what you gain from the sale is used as cash. These transactions are therefore taxable.

For HODLers, if you cash out it in less than a year then it would be considered as income so there’s tax for that. If you hodl for more than a year, then IRS will consider it as 20% capital gains.

Such difficulties with the payment of taxes due to the fact that the ultimate goal of the government to make sure that people abandoned the use of cryptocurrencies. With a great desire, it was possible to make a separate account for cashing out cryptocurrencies and through this account people could buy and sell cryptocurrencies. The difference between withdrawal and proceeds could be subject to a small tax. But governments don't need it. They want to make tax administration as difficult as possible.

I am not totally convinced with this 'though the possibility is there, the thing is,  how can we consider it as property if bitcoin is only existing in the internet and the holder has no control with the price? Property is a thing that no one can control it and also when we talk about property we are talking about the physical thing. Could you please give me more explaination regarding this matter? I do really want to understand it? Thanks.

Property can be always classified or do mean on all the things we do posses and bitcoin can be considered as one but we do all know in the word "property" it would turn out always to see it on physical form and i do rather believe that bitcoin is an asset rather than a property.You said it hasnt a physical form and do only exist digitally and market price cant really be dictated and it do matter most on supply and demand where i somehow disagree into this matter.

How about my government decide not to legalize bitcoin ?
If they don't legalize bitcoin, they don't have the right to apply the tax,right ?
They still not make any restrict policy yet so I can still use bitcoin without paying any tax !

You're wrong. The fact that your government has not legalized bitcoin does not mean that you are exempt from taxes. When you change bitcoin to Fiat you get money into a Bank account. This amount is your income and is subject to income tax. The rules are written so you can avoid taxes only if you do not use Fiat.

You have a point but indirectly, you pay tax whenever you change your Bitcoin to Fiat.
Many people consider Bitcoin as an asset whereas others see it as a currency but irrespective of the angle of view, the whole concept and principle of Bitcoin does not change. As long as it serves the purpose we want, I don't see the point in worrying much about whatever substance it is regarded as.

But that also depends that under which head you classify your bitcoin income. It cannot come under the head of salary because it doesn't match the criteria to be classified as a salary income. And property income, I don't really think it is... It cannot be classified under the head Profits and gains from business and profession. Then all we are left with are Income from capital gain & Income from other sources. To be qualified under the head capital gain income, it must meet the definition of the CAPITAL ASSET given under the Indian Income Tax Act 1961, i.e., Personal effects of movable nature including wearing apparel, furniture and vehicle used for personal use by the tax payer or any dependent member of such taxpayer.
So, bitcoins could be deemed a capital asset if they are purchased for investment. Any gain arising on transfer of a bitcoin shall be taxable as capital gain. However, if the transactions in bitcoins are substantial and frequent, it could be held that the taxpayer is trading in bitcoins, and the income would be taxable as business income. (Source: https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/opinion/taxing-cryptocurrencies-in-india/article10012267.ece )

In essence,For me its a special kind of property  and thats why goverments,In particular legislative bodies are trying to create different and unique norms to regulate this economical relationships.Just imagine there are the same principles as for example when you are meeting a cheque,the bearer of this note can redeem it for real funds and also bitcoin holder too by its own,unique signature.What about capital gains,I think there will be the drawbacks,because of executive mechanism,Its also so hard and takes a lot of special knowledge and time to monitor everything connected with this cases.

It's not clear to me at all that this is the case, if you got paid in bitcoin instead of buying it. For instance, we the people that get paid for signature campaigns... this is income gains. Are you saying that if you hold the bitcoin transacted to you in exchange of the signature campaign work for 1+ year, you are able to cash these gains out as capital gains? Im not sure about that at all.

In fact we should be reporting our monthly bitcoin income from signature campaigns, but who the hell does that? I would do it, but im too scared to get a penalty for not doing so earlier, and I also don't know what kind of proof they will demand, I just don't know what to expect, and nobody has clear answers for this, therefore I've resorted to holding it all until I have a clear vision of what we are talking about in this case.

According to the legal doctrine if something is not forbidden at the legislative level,means that its legal,So how is this issue  regulated in your country?It sounds a bit antagonistic,if they don't legalize bitcoin how they can ask people for the tax? its nonsense,but there is one drawback,In particular,Everything depends on how your country's court defines the legal definition of bitcoin,I say this because may if there are no special,unique norms for concrete realationships may there will be used general norms for property right or tax law,etc.Anyway this is a very complex issue which takes a lot of time to deal with it.

Not agree with the idea given in the video. I made out a similar doctrin using the Sales of good act as per which bitcoin can be considered as good. A good buying of which entails indirect tax while selling of which entails you direct tax. But I was able to draw up a similar doctrine with the financial instituions act. As per which bitcoin may be a financial instrument which can be traded and will be treated as a share or debenture when coming to payment of taxes. I would say its better if we wait for instructions of the authorities as to how to declare this income of bitcoin.

For your information all transactions involving a sell of good or services regardless what kind of payment you have given or receive involves tax. Sometimes it mostly involves value-added tax. Bitcoin being defined as a property won't change the fact that it is taxable. The only problem is how will the government deal with it? As a sell of property requires a lot more documents before the trasfer of property.

Even though the transaction is recorded in the Blockchain you will still need a notarized deed of sale before the sale of Bitcoin proceeds. So if I were in the government I would really make a bill were I give several exceptions and a specific definition to Bitcoin in order to end a lot of confusion.

It depends per country. I have been a freelancer for a good while, and haven't had one single time where the tax department required me to provide any proof. I recorded everything obviously, for in case they did ask for it, but it didn't happen. In some cases I had to pay like 50% in tax over all my earnings as freelancer, which is just insane. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind paying tax when reasonable, but this is a clear form of theft, and for that reason will never pay tax over my signature campaign earnings, and I'm sure others think alike -- just don't let greedy governments take away even more from you. Don't wake sleeping dogs....

This rules or law are now applied from some countries. All profits comes from cryptocurrency is declared, filed and stated for taxation either it will be classified as property, asset or income. Cryptocurrency there are legal but taxed and that was a way better than nothing.

Bitcoin wont really suit out that kind of implementations since its a digital currency and it isnt really right to think off about having any documentation unlike on physical properties which do really have those kind of steps or transactions.We might be already on such regulation but cant be considered for bitcoin to be as a property.On just on your own treatment it can be considered as your possesion just like money.Its our property on anythings that us as an owner.

It is just a matter of time, transaction will be done without exchanging bitcoin to fiat all over the world. In the same way if bitcoin is considered to be property this mean all other Fiat for different countries in the whole world  is also a property because people exchange one money for another. E.g Dollars to pounds.

I really love the idea that bitcoin can be considered as a "property" but the question is "how can we accept bitcoin as property if property is something which is legal?" Look government in other countries don't like or support bitcoin and they declare it as illegal others are being quiet about it. Also if we are talking about property we are talking for something that no one has control over it except you and the government law. Outside this authority I doubt to accept the op's opinion.

I do not like any attempts by the government to bring the legislative base for bitcoin. It's even funny to read how you talk about what you like 20% tax bills in bitcoin. Taxes are a fee for the convenience and comfort of living in the country. I am against any attempt to tax bitcoins.

That is right, it is so sad to think that we are giving away 20% of our supposedly allotted for investment or for our  savings for future purposes but we need to pay tax for the sake of the corrupt politicians, we are just glad that right now we are not yet required to pay for the tax if then, you already losing 20%.

Yes bitcoin is property. Any cryptocurrency can be owned by anyone. And, they are all "intellectual property," as well (see http://www.wipo.int/about-ip/en/). Now, how a government can tax them is a legal quandary. So, yes governments are scrambling to tax your property, except they have some real problems because they want to protect their citizens "intellectual property," and they can't afford for you to question how the multi-billionaires, and corporations, banks and governments are trading TRILLIONS of fiat electronically every single day, and no one is taxing these transactions (property). So, why exactly are you paying taxes on your property? Just want to know ...

This was around December 2017 I guess and in US they are already treating bitcoin as an asset, not a currency.

So that's normal when you are able to sell bitcoin and you profit to it, the government will take portion from that money and you owe them with tax.

Better to see this type of support from the government instead of banning it right?

Exactly, it really depends on what country you are in. For me, I've been in the freelancing business as well since 2009-2013, keeps everything documented, but governments didn't ran after me, so I guess I'm still good with my government.

But if they are going to look and have me paid my taxes, then I would be willing to do. What I hate is that my taxes are going somewhere else. Like to see it being used in projects that our people can benefit.

P.S. I also not reporting my signature earnings but everything can be tracked in blockchain.

They are not. Also, every state seems to have different views and tax policies on crypto in its entirety, so it's not that the US as a whole will have the same rules applying to crypto.

In certain states you may even end up paying close to 50% in tax over your short term gains, while other states aren't as brutal with their extortion attempts. I however aside from tax purposes don't see why this is important.

At the end of the day the usage by yourself is the only thing that matters, not what category the government think is fitting for crypto. They'll never acknowledge crypto to be a currency, even when people use it as such.

In that case it would be depends on what country we are for not all countries do the same thing with tax on bitcoin. Probably this kind of doing is for the country who make bitcoin as legal. For those who make bitcoin as decentralized it is not taxable for government cannot interfere to crypto.

Interesting to watch the video created. New way of getting tax to what is earned from bitcoin. How can you consider crypto currency bitcoin as a property. In order charge tax how can you term bitcoin as a property. Why such a foolish expression? Lets pay tax if the government asks for but it depends, we can pay if the respected government legally accepted bitcoin and other crypto currencies. What is the use of creating such a video which is not a use and viewers time is wasted as well.

How every bitcoin is called, never mind, i take it as an asset to save for future. I love to save bitcoin instead of exchanging bitcoin into fiats and use it for other purpose. I am saving the earnings though it is very small. I love to rank up soon with merits which will help me earn bit more and save them for future. This savings should help my son's studies as well it should help me invest on other crypto currencies.

This, by the way, is a very interesting idea. From a legal point of view, the right of ownership includes the right of possession, the right to use and the right to dispose of any thing to assert that this thing is property. The right of ownership is precisely that for property it is necessary that you really own a digital coin, the right of use - they could extract its useful properties and the right to dispose - to actually dispose of it. If you do not have at least one of these rights, then you are not the owner of a certain thing. Do we have the right to own a crypto currency in this case, if it is actually on the Internet and some hacker can take it away from us because we practically do not own it, this coin does not exist with us? This is really a good reason to prove in court that the crypto currency can not be recognized as property.

This is quite an interesting topic and I never thought about it until I read this thread. And yes I think it could be taxable once you convert it into cash and place it in your bank, that’s why banks asks where the money came from so they would know if it was from work or whatever to have it taxed.

yes of course its property we can wants money then we going to our wallet and convert to our county money so i thought it is our property.

Mostly we are considering bitcoin as a commodity and has the chance to increase its price even higher, there is a chance of holding the bitcoin for certain period of time is always good and many people considering it as property only because people want to hold it for the long term.

Agreed. The way it is. But it seems to me that this is only a temporary phenomenon. Sellers of goods will be happy to accept bitcoin for payment because its price will always have a prospect of growth. If the seller does not want to store coins, he can always exchange them for Fiat and not lose profit. Bitcoin is bound to become a currency.

Indeed, to treat bitcoin as a property, we must have the right to use it, possession and disposal. With the right of ownership, there can be certain difficulties, because we do not actually own our crypto currency, it is somewhere on the Internet. Although this is a controversial issue: where is actually the crypto currency - on the Internet or not.

In my own understanding if it is declared by the government then that is reasonable enough.

Suppose it is applicable to the country who have deal to cryptocurrency strictly. They have the power to implement tax if they could for they have an authority over the matter. However this kind of issue are not yet applied all over the world for there are country that no business to deal with this crypto. They never mind the income of others but they question where did it come from until such time they think they can get some extra money from cryptocurrency lovers.

And maybe over time.., it will become more powerful and closer to many people because of its superiority and many other things that can be done until it really can play an important role for life as a complement that's really needed as a source income. Not to mention if more countries can accept it and make it legitimate to buy anything with online.

I suppose for bitcoin being a property is also a sensible thing. Because if bitcoin is an asset, its value will be determined by the law of supply and demand, and if it is currency, it will be subject to many legal frameworks of government.

Bitcoin in its nature is like the two faces of a coin. It can be seen as an asset and also as a currency. Either ways has it own advantages and disadvantages. As said, if Bitcoin is considered as a currency, it makes it liable to government regulations such as payment of taxes with each transactions and other authoritative suggestions. On the other hand, being a currency grants Bitcoin the ability to serve as a medium of exchange.

Yes it seems that bitcoin can be expressed like that, bitcoin is an asset, just like a property that if sold and scarce will be more expensive its price, as well as bitcoin, in the future bitcoin will be rare because it will run out after being mined. So saving the bitcoin for a long time I think it's very profitable.

Yeah if you follow law of  taxation it seems that  bitcoin be sold like and asset in the law of taxation if you sell properties there is a corresponding tax, these  will happen when we legalized bitcoin but  since this is a crypto currency and anonymous, decentralized and no boundaries I don't think that government can emposed  tax easily but  it will entail a thorough study and evaluation. Before they can emposed  taxation.

I can't understand why all people are discussing how to properly pay taxes for using bitcoin. You completely lost the craving for freedom? I have an Association with what the pet itself is leafing through the catalogue and chooses the method of his murder. Maybe it is better to think about how not to pay taxes and generally less dependent on the government?

Bitcoin is indeed, an asset and a property according to the Banko Sentral ng Pilipinas (Central Bank). A friend of mine interviewed a group of lawyers at our Central Bank and they viewed bitcoin, not as a currency but as a property. Therefore, bitcoin is not subject to legal tender since the country does not view it as a currency. Though it may be different from other countries as well, bitcoin can be regarded as a property due to its amount and value to the market.


Bitcoin cannot be a currency yet, as the government should accept its existence and view at as a standard medium of exchange in the country. Other countries must also confer to this stipulation as it may deemed worthless if exchanged to a country who does not see bitcoin as a currency. Though in the future, once we adapt to the digitalized form of payment, bitcoin can be seen as a gateway towards this ideal scenario of having electronic money.

When bitcoin is said to be a property it must have a physical form, while bitcoin is known to everyone just stored on the internet. Then I tend to be more bitcoin as an asset because the data from bitcoin is complete and has value, the only bitcoin has no physical.

I agree with you. Bitcoin has no physical form and therefore cannot be recognized as property. Governments are inventing different ways to put cryptocurrencies under control. They don't follow the rules. It is important for them to win bitcoin at any cost. That's why I don't support the government and will do anything to keep bitcoin out of control.

I think what you mean by the word property is not what you think, maybe what you think is a barng but that is said there as a stash.

What we can expect from our government they will really do something that will imposed tax on cryptocurrency. So, we cannot do something about it if our government will push that bitcoin should be tax since it is just like a property then we should just follow them.

I am against the position of the outsider. We have to be part of the system. If the government calls bitcoin our property, then so be it. You need to be able to protect your property. Attempt to levy a tax for the use of bitcoin is an attempt to capture a portion of our property. We must not let the government into our territory. If for this need to abandon Fiat the need to do this.

The complete adoption to the cryotocurrency will give us the full freedom to use it and governmenys can't control our cryotocurrency when there is mass adoption but government don't let us to do this they will alwyas try to control us and impose tax on us because governments are running on the people taxes only.

I just went through the article. Feel bit silly. Tax can be paid in any means. In order to pay tax, should this be a property. How can a currency be decided as a property. Currency is currency. Will you consider gold, silver and diamond as a property? Kindly avoid bringing such silly news here dude. This does not help. You just say, its worth buying a property instead of holding back the bitcoins in the wallet. We can command if its really worth to have or not.

Bitcoin is both an asset and currency. In some countries, Bitcoin is used as a one of the transaction. Some of the country try to regulate the bitcoin in their country. Bitcoin is used as asset to inverse the savings and it is now consider as trusted asset as like a gold.Bitcoin holders should keep the bitcoin till the price of bitcoin reach maximum value.

Assets are gained via currencies. Currencies as well is an asset as you said above. A property can be bought as an asset with currencies but how can a currency be a property in any means. I wonder what can make one to think a currency as a property. Bitcoin and other crypto currencies are so valuable to enrich our assets and our lives. Bitcoin has set its standard. The authorities who adapt bitcoin will be healthy in economy. This is what can be said now.

It is simply an issue of time, exchange will be managed without trading bitcoin to fiat everywhere throughout the world. Similarly if bitcoin is thought to be property this mean all other Fiat for various nations in the entire world is additionally a property since individuals trade one cash for another. E.g Dollars to pounds.

I am investing in bitcoin on a monthly basis because I am treating Bitcoin as a property. There is a huge chance in the coming next 5 years it may reach more than $70k and it will increase even higher value in the coming 10 years.

There's no implication that (real estate) property is worth having as compared to crypto(currency). Crypto may be a currency but not in the eyes of other authorities. I was in no way discrediting the value of Bitcoin nor does the video say anything like that - it even recognizes how high the price of Bitcoin went up just last December of 2017. I just reiterated what the video has showed which is what the United States and the IRS views on Bitcoin. Even if we call crypto as a currency, it's still not applied as such.

Bitcoin cannot be regarded as property. The government are deceiving us. The property has a material form. Moreover, the property has a price only at the time of sale. How can bitcoin be considered a property? Today it can cost $ 20,000 and tomorrow $ 5,000. Who will return the difference? I think there will be a lot of questions about taxation.

the more rampant bitcoin, bitcoin used as a means of payment, even in dubai, we buy properties can use bitcoin, even can also as an investment tool, it's really a very amazing development

We know how much important of legalization of bitcoin. We know how the bitcoin is being legal for these days. We can own our own bitcoin or being registered the bitcoin in your own name. For now, we should expect a lot of transaction fees for we have bitcoin as property. Bitcoin  under your name is like registering your own car on your own name.

In General, taxes vary from country to country. For example, in Russia there is very little tax to work with cryptocurrency.

I think this has two different point of view depends upon the philosophy of every bitcoin hodlers and supporters so it could be acceptable as property and/or it could also not a property.

When we talk about property we are talking about for something own by a person and stands as a source or assets of his/her income. It is also a thing you bought or received as a gift, and far as I know money is not a property but the product of property or of the source.

Well, it really depends on every countries regulation on how they have to accept bitcoin. But bitcoin could be accept as property but digitally so if they wanted to tax something from digital money because they think it is a thing but its not they don't know the feelings.

Since the government cannot totally track the transactions of its citizens then it would be good option to just levy tax on the platforms use by the people. The platform would just automatically charge tax on every transaction so that the tax would already be accumulated and the platform would just have an option to generate reports so that taxpayers can include it in their filing of taxes as already paid.

As for our country, there is no regulation yet as to how we would recognize cryptocurrency but our government is not against it since they grant some licenses to some crypto related platforms and we can even directly deposit or withdraw to our bank accounts. For the payment of taxes, I am willing to pay my share if there would already be proper rules and regulations about it.

It's funny seriously, I don't know where the government is taking it to but one thing is sure these are all government tactics. They don't want people to deal Bitcoin so, they are making the regulations tight and tough. This is how government deals with the things they are indirectly pressurising the people to stop using Bitcoin. They did the same with tobacco so that the farmers stop cultivating it and it worked for them.

In general, I disagree with you. The governments control everything (inside their countries) and even if they do not recognize Bitcoin, it does not mean that they will not tax their users, there is always exploitation. Their goal is to profit from every financial transaction, that's the issue.

Furthermore, I think if the majority of governments will recognize Bitcoin and cyrptocurrencies in general, then I am pretty sure that the value of taxes will increase, But the positive thing, they cannot control Bitcoin, so they will have many problems. I think the tax problem will always be present in many countries, because the global economy has some crises, so they want to compensate some of financial losses through those taxes.

indeed bitcoin as a property for cash containers
I also consider bitcoin as a cashmaker for me
if to discuss the matter of HODLrs, the profit earned may be 20% of the initial capital, but now the taxes almost eat 0.025% of the sale of bitcoin

If taxation is concern we should pay taxes according to law, but how to implement tax to crypto currency it be passed into law so that proper documentation and will define policy will be imposed.

Every government have their own rule and yes, bitcoin consider as asset / property just like real estate/land so it can't be compare with fiat, IMO


My government forbid bitcoin because security reason although they can earn revenue by applying tax on bitcoin.
Or I think my government still short thinking about btc , idk

It seems to me that attempts to compensate for our own inability to manage the economy of the state is a bad idea. Why should we pay for government mistakes? By their actions, they pushed people to use bitcoin. Now it will be very difficult to find consensus with bitcoin users. Today in the United States over the period of payment of taxes. Let's see the statistics. I don't believe a lot of users have paid taxes.

I understand that this is a tax on transactions for the purchase and sale of BTC, that if over time bitcoin will be a self-sufficient payment unit, in this case they can be paid for without conversion and then there will be no basis for taxes. Or I'm wrong ?

I think bitcoin is a valuable asset. is a trend in the future

You're right. Using bitcoin without converting to Fiat is the worst that can be imagined by the government. They'll never let that happen. For this reason, bitcoin is recognized property, the asset etc etc But it will never recognize currency. It is the duty of the bitcoin community to create conditions for the use of bitcoins autonomously.

a transaction with Bitcoin at first is the idea of the buyer. Although the further development of Bitcoin in the Lake Tahoe property market has not been predictable, it indicates the potential for digital currency in the industry and paves the way for future supply in both residential and commercial sectors.

I fully support you. The government can't ban bitcoin. Total ban tactics will not succeed. So they want to destroy bitcoin from the inside. The rules for using bitcoins will be constantly tightened and taxes will increase. I'm sure of it. That's why I'm against any attempt to legalize cryptocurrency. We need to adjust our independent turnover of cryptocurrency on the Internet. Then it goes into the real sector.

I think it is also like that bitcoin is a property even when viewed from the increase of bitcoin price more than property and so far I think bitcoin has the highest value in the increase.

because bitcoin can be used for investment, and property can also be used for the investment of both different but the same keguanaanya that is to invest long term, because the price can rise in the future