Bitcoin Forum

Hi,

I have invented a pretty good method to prevent chargebacks and unauthorized accounts. It involves tracking for seller protection and advanced "scam the scammer"-method. This account is created solely to promote the idea and try the system with small amounts.

This program is going to advance slowly, though.

how can you track something that isn't physical?
explain your method :D

You're crazy

you're crazy.

I won't, because people might copy it and if it's not working they would blame me.

They might, if my method works. And if they won't I might be able to scam the scammer. Gotta try this first for BTC0.005 transactions.

EDIT: people called Van Gogh crazy, too!

The only way I know of preventing a chargeback is to force the person to chargeback and cancel it.

PayPal doesn't allow you to chargeback a second time on the same transaction.

Good luck with that  ::)

Yeah, I have investigated the possibilities. I just need to experiment a bit, but the fees of my transaction would be something like 5-20%
Thanks?, I hope there are people actually willing to buy bitcoins via paypal and not just scammers. Otherwise it is going to be a hard work.

I want to buy your BTC, or even LTC if you have, paying with paypal.

Are you still interested ? Please let me know

Bye

You're crazy :S

i guy on uk ebay sells bitcoin you get sent a bit of paper with a code (tracked post) then you have to email him the number on the card send him your wallet details then he put funds into your account.

i also have been buying 0.1 at a time with paypal off there i just pay, send the guy my wallet number and he puts funds into it, simple as that.

If your right, you might make fortune.
But when PayPal notice you trading BTC, they close your account  :)

It wil eventually fail because Paypal will ban you.

You ARE crazy.
Paypal hates bitcoin, but oh, yeah, they'll definitely protect you.

Let me know when you do. I'd definitely buy some from you on day 1...and not scam you.

hey ill buy some from you right now...

I've seen people on ebay selling a something like a penny with the bitcoin used as a bonus then ships them the penny with tracking.  Anyone know if that has been working?

Crazy or not, it sounds rather risky... good luck. Don't sell more (at once) than you're willing to lose / or that you can't make back easily in a few weeks.

I bought BTC via Paypal twice... Paid a pretty high premium too. Too bad this community is full with scammers.

i bought with pay pay twice TODAY, scammed BOTH TIMES TODAY. fucking scum around here.

How you got scammed? I mean since you are the buyer...

i sent payment to both of them, i already made disputes but its just such a pain in the ass.

This bears repeating...

Can anyone more experienced with Paypal verify this?

Dude, I think technically Van Gogh *was* crazy! :-)

As for your scheme, it might work with small amounts, but once the amounts get bigger it might fail.  Very common for business schemes to not be "scalable".

TonyT

PayPal and Bitcoin do not mix.

One has irreversible transactions, the other says the merchant may never get paid in the Terms of Service.

sell bitcoin through paypal is quick and dirty lol

Lol I dont know if paypal has changed their view of bitcoin yet.  Seems like yesterday people having any association with bitcoin and paypal were gettn hammared....read about it anyway...not only that youd send someone the btc, and they open a dispute saying they never got it and try to make you give their money back... I think the ebay sellers had a rough time with it origionally.

PayPal has no control over chargebacks. They never allow or disallow them. They just happen and PayPal responds to them. Perhaps you're confusing a chargeback with a dispute?

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/security/chargeback-faq
"A chargeback, also known as a reversal, is when a buyer asks their credit card issuer to reverse a transaction after it has been completed. It is available only to users who make a payment funded by their credit or debit card."

How much prermium did you pay for it

Things would be a lot less complicated if people would just use bitcoins already....for everything....stupid fiat money. lol if i were to carry cash, it feels no different really than what the spartans carrying around those heavy bars for currency would have felt.....and i feel used....

Damn near twice as what they're worth! Usually I use BTC quick, but when they're out, I have to resort to localbitcoins. I've used Virwox many times and paid with Paypal, but the limits are really low and they cap you everyday. I'm a platinum member at BTC Quick, so just waiting to get my hands on some more mula. I'm able to purchase up to 2k per day with them.. and I've done it many of times. Hell, I'm broke now - which is why I'm selling my miners  :'(

Son of a gun! I didn't realize you could get scammed for buying with Paypal! I always assumed it was the other way around... So if the risk is both ways, then I've been getting scammed by paying twice as much, thinking that the seller is assuming all the risk? Well I'll be damned!

goodluck not getting scammed. you're crazy

Selling Bitcoin for Pay-Pal is a big no no. Good luck.

What about buying? I get desperate sometimes... ???

yes its one of most dangrous pay system in term to sell by paypal you must burned out after this :(

I sell BTC for PayPal on another forum, to highly trusted members. It always works out fine for me.

It only mean internally Paypal will not assist a buyer who did a dispute and then canceled it or in other words said seller corrected what ever he was initially disputing.  In no way does it somehow magically protect the seller if the payment source turns out to be fraudulent.  The issue is that the modern financial system is a full recourse system when it come to fraud.  Nothing is irreversible.  Bitcoin is the exact opposite and therefore very incompatible.  On the practical side OP is in a situation where fraud prevention takes effort and resources and thus raises the cost of bitcoins sold which in turn of course only attracts the scammers since a regular customer is price sensitive and a scammer is not.

This has allready be donne www.bitonic.nl with ideal.

Great to see some replies, I've been a bit busy recently. Currently I have not enough time to start this project, but I'll get back to this in month or less. I am going to start with transfers of less than 0.1 BTC and hopefully build my trust level on the way.

My initial idea was something like this: send a username and password to and account containing the bitcoins with tracking information. At the same time I could send the info to buyer and paypal would give me sellers protection. This method is a bit too time consuming and not reliable enough, though.

Yeah! I'll get back to this later when I have more time for this. I'll post a thread in some more relevant subforum and inform this thread, too.

My premium would be 10-20%. Does that seem too much to make a deal? This community is kinda flooded with opportunists and paranoid people.

Damn right he was! Small amounts at first, but paypal might accept blockchain as a reliable verification at some point in the future. I actually sent Paypal an email inquiring their policies, but they seemed rather neutral. If someone finds a ToC saying virtual currency trading is not allowed, I'd be happy to see it.

+ I read one of the posters was "pageporn"

Not understand language. German?

I think that it is a good idea because there is a demand for that ...
But you should be very careful and do not deal with everyone.

Bitcoin is not a virtual currency: those are issued and backed by a specific issuer. Linden Dollars and Facebook credit, and Q-coins (or whatever QQ calls it) are virtual currencies. China bans using virtual currencies to buy real-world goods, but not Bitcoin.

PayPal Acceptable Use Policy (https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full)


But it is not a currency, it is a commodity!

What makes you say that Bitcoin is a commodity and not a currency?
I am not sure that Paypal thinks the same way.

It is both; sort of like how light can behave as both a series of particles and a wave: depending how you set up your experiment.

Yes, so it is forbidden by Paypal ToS right?

I do not believe it is. Paypal even responded to me something like "you are allowed to trade Bitcoins however we can not provide buyers or sellers protection to digital products".

"are for the sale of certain items before the seller has control or possession of the item,"
This is probably the reason why Paypal "hates" the miner preorder sellers and most of their "hate" is due chargebacks and not understanding the concept of BTC.

Seen it advertised and was curious to see if it worked. Are you up and running now?

This is massively popular on the darknet and if you want to abide by the TOS, ship a postcard as the physical product

Advertised? I'm not up and running yet, this is currently not my n:o one priority.

Yeah, I probably implement shipping of a postcard -method, too. Thank you for pointing out deep web, didn't know the market has expanded that much.

I have traded a couple of times with BTC and paypal. There were times, when paypal approwed chargeback, i had lost a lot of money. Too bad this community has a lot of scamers. Paypal has a strange attitude to anything related to BTC aswell.

Maybe I confused it... is this not your site? https://bitp.al/  ???

This mean you should not use Paypal, you can loose your money anytime

One would say it cant happen - but it can

That's about stupid. Electronic proof of delivery is a cursory requirement to seller protection, but PayPal can unilaterally decide to refund when the seller returns the "item" with their own proof of delivery. Or refund whenever they want. Or pull money out of your account because payment was "unauthorized" or charged back. Or close your account and freeze your funds.

Your PayPal adversary is fallen-state cybercriminals who have stolen PayPal account credentials and are looking for suckers to send them something irreversible like Bitcoin.

Click the NEWBIE README sticky, and go to the linked PayPal thread. You're gonna have a bad time.

Yeah, they're a bit bipolar about it.

This is the weirdest coincidence I've faced for awhile.

I have read pretty much half the threads about PayPal's risks and my method is something that either forces PayPal to accept blockchain as a verification method or costs them a lot of money. If every fourth customer is a scammer then the business is not profitable. Only problem is, that the amount of work to make one transaction is humongous.

EDIT: Currently I just need to know, if the seller is somehow capable of seeing how the buyer paid for the item. I could accept only payments paid by PayPal balance.

You're not being very logical.

1. You create a crappy deal to sell through PayPal.
2. This only filters out legitimate purchasers, as ...
3. at that point they would be safer going with a legit exchange versus using paypal. one dispute and your paypal is locked and if you had anything pending going on they're screwed.
4. on your end paypal fees are to "eat fraud" that's why its more expensive. Except 10-20% will come nowhere near the costs you'd likely take on. Another logical flaw... it's not "1 in 4" to be profitable. You're on the winning end with the bitcoin holding. Its the person giving you money that don't know if they'll ever see the bitcoin, and they can't protest it. without losing their account / locking it because it was for bitcoin. Oops. I give you paypal, you never send, I can't report it. You can send, I can report it if I have a throwaway account. That's not a "rate" that's a "once it happens the first time you lose the account."
5. in the end you will only end up with people who don't care what your fee is because they're scamming you.


There are others on this board who have done paypal businesses with no problems. But their fees were nearly zero. And they were huge presences on this board and in various other channels that other huge presences would vouch for.


The problem isn't paypal. They have no way of knowing what you're doing. I send money for rent to my friend at zero fee. They don't know what I'm renting or that it's not a gift, etc. The problem is when someone scams you paypal will cut you off no questions asked if you're honest regarding what its about.

The position the other sellers were in was "I'll use paypal until they fuck up, and then it is done."

Their volume was so large that it was paypal's loss to not use them, essentially.

Thank you for criticism, it is always good to keep feet on the ground. I have to charge high premiums for first purchases, because unfortunately newcomers are more probably to be scammers. Returning customers and perhaps trusted members are getting discounted premiums (8, 6, 4, 2, 1)%. I will probably start with 10% and then lower the premium every time. My fee policy is open for suggestions.

1. I sell bitcoins for PayPal balance money and this experiment might scale in the future, if I have the time and resources.
2. I hope not since most PayPal sellers offer higher premium.
3. Paypal is instant, therefore attractive way to buy bitcoins. I start with small amounts building the trust.
4. My precautions are theoretically bulletproof, but as said I will test this with small amounts. "1 in 4" is a rough estimate: every scammer costs me 20$ and with average new purchases of 50$ it will be covered.
5. Adjusting the fee with amount of scammers and identifying reliable people among the community is essential.

This is a good point, thank you. I had to further develop my model, but now things look even better. I implemented a trust level system and fees are calculated using the system.

I agree with this, people are demonizing PayPal as an anti-bitcoin, but they are just doing their job.

You're crazy. Nah not really, I commend you for having a go! I'm sorry, not read all the thread as too tired and about to hit the sack. But just posting so I can come back easy and read how you got on!

Thanks :)

Yes - that's the lapse in logic. People use bitcoin due to the semi-anonymity, yet sniffle when paypal has no choice but to kill accounts because a semi-anonymous currency is untrackable.


Think of it the other way, how would paypal ever decide who was right with a bitcoin transaction without requiring authentication of some sort, ie, knowing 2 addresses on both ends and being able to witness the transaction as well as an input "this is a deal of X$ for Y bitcoins" field?

They have every right to not support a currency/valuestore/method that undermines their business. In order for them to make it non-fraudulent they'd have to perform extensive credit check / audits beforehand (slowing down the process) and build an interface as I've mentioned to track the payment.

Now explain why they'd do all that, if support and adoption of bitcoin threatens their livelihood in the market? To take an extra cut off bitcoin sales, perhaps?


Paypal is clearly anti-bitcoin, until it can monetize it and then it will be pro-bitcoin very fast when it adds an authentication layer on top of it that people opt-in to, just like they've opted in to these other exchanges. The problem there isn't paypal, its the credit card companies and banks that bitcoin would kill off if paypal adopted this strategy.

If you could somehow guarantee not dealing with the ton of scammers you are definitely going to come into contact with, I think you could make quite a bit of money selling bitcoin with paypal. Just remember that you also have to worry about Paypal just as much as the scammers though.

Paypal is one of the BEST ways to buy and sell bitcoin.  But as soon as paypal figures out what you are doing they will terminate your account and freeze any funds in your account and linked bank / card for up to 180 day.

Whenever I bought, I bought via eBay using Paypal, and I'm thinking to do the same, because you get paid very well over there, but reading here has just confused me.

Ok, how about selling via Skrill/Moneybookers, anyone has tried that?

Also, where does it say Paypal will ban your account, if you sell BTC? I searched the TOS and couldn't find anything, as it's not like Skrill or whatever.

I exchanged on Okay and they give you dirt cheap rates and will never use them again!

Looking forward to see how it works for you, so that I'll start doing so too  8)

I might even start by selling here with as small as 0.001, then I'll jump to 0.1 when I can build a list of trusted buyers.

Good luck everybody.

This is me calling you crazy :P

Paypal may have changed their terms of services since the Presidents of both Paypal and Ebay have publicly expressed interest in bitcoin.

Skrill/Moneybookers has also been know to shut down account selling virtual currency.

This was also being sent out to paypal member selling virtual currency back in may.

Hello ,

We have reviewed your PayPal account and found that you are operating as an
e-currency dealer/exchanger including the sale of electronic media of
exchange (such as electronic money or digital currency). Per our current
Acceptable Use Policy for Money Service Businesses, PayPal may not be used
to operate a currency exchange, bureau de change or check cashing business
including the sale of BitCoins.

To continue using your PayPal account, we need some additional information
from you. Keep in mind that we have placed a limitation on your PayPal
account, and this limitation will remain until we receive and review this
information. Please provide us with the following:

   • A brief affidavit stating that you understand and will comply with
PayPal's terms and conditions.
   • A listing of the products and services you offer.
   • A detailed explanation of your business model.
   • A list of all URLs or websites that will be used to receive payments.
   • The type of payments you will send and receive, including the type of
goods or services you will accept payments for.

Below you will find suggested affidavit language. Please make sure that the
requested affidavit is signed and notarized.

I the undersigned do affirm that I understand and will comply with PayPal's
policy regarding the use of PayPal Accounts to operate an e-currency
exchange business. I understand that PayPal may not be used to operate a
currency exchange, bureau de change or check cashing business. I further
affirm that any further detected violation of the policy may result in the
immediate closure of, or restriction to access to the account.

Please log in to your account and go to the Resolution Center to find out
what you need to do. Your account will remain limited until the issue is
resolved.

Additionally, in the future, if we find that your account is acting as a
dealer/exchanger, we will need to sever our business relationship with you.

We look forward to hearing from you and thank you for choosing PayPal as
your business partner.

Sincerely,
Robert
PayPal Compliance Department
PayPal, an eBay Company

not sure if this applies.


https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/acceptableuse-full

You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

relate to transactions involving  ...(d) stolen goods including digital and virtual goods

relate to transactions that ... (h) involve currency exchanges or check cashing businesses

Escrow may help, but the 6mth chargeback policy is the killer.

You need to get around that by accepting payments as gifts, which I believe cannot be done via Credit card, and therefore can't be charged-back even through a credit card company.
If I remember correctly, paypal gifts aren't able to be charged-back.

People use this method to sell accounts and other digital items without fees or the possibility of a chargeback.
-

If you skirt the polices in place, you also enter the realm of breaching policy.

-

Though what you're doing would be very useful if you have a good reputation/trust system and also lucrative, in volume transactions.

I would love to buy bitcoin with paypal & I've only just discovered shop.crowdcoin.biz and have been holding back, but now is the time to invest in coin...

How did you get scammed buying with Paypal? I thought Paypal were on the buyer's side?

Maybe you can (or already have) test your methods with someone you know. I think including a physical product is a good idea. Good luck!