I might start selling bitcoin for Paypal, call me crazy

[naphto]

I think that it is a good idea because there is a demand for that ...
But you should be very careful and do not deal with everyone.

[phillipsjk]

Damn right he was! Small amounts at first, but paypal might accept blockchain as a reliable verification at some point in the future. I actually sent Paypal an email inquiring their policies, but they seemed rather neutral. If someone finds a ToC saying virtual currency trading is not allowed, I'd be happy to see it.

Bitcoin is not a virtual currency: those are issued and backed by a specific issuer. Linden Dollars and Facebook credit, and Q-coins (or whatever QQ calls it) are virtual currencies. China bans using virtual currencies to buy real-world goods, but not Bitcoin.

PayPal Acceptable Use Policy

You may not use the PayPal service for activities that: ... 3(f) are associated with the following Money Service Business activities: the sale of traveler’s checks or money orders, currency exchanges...

But it is not a currency, it is a commodity!

PayPal requires pre-approval to accept payments for certain services as set out in 6 above and detailed in the chart below. ... dealing in jewels, precious metals and stones; acting as a money transmitter or selling stored value cards...

[bitcoin44me]

What makes you say that Bitcoin is a commodity and not a currency?
I am not sure that Paypal thinks the same way.

[phillipsjk]

What makes you say that Bitcoin is a commodity and not a currency?
I am not sure that Paypal thinks the same way.

It is both; sort of like how light can behave as both a series of particles and a wave: depending how you set up your experiment.

[bitcoin44me]

What makes you say that Bitcoin is a commodity and not a currency?
I am not sure that Paypal thinks the same way.

It is both; sort of like how light can behave as both a series a particles and a wave: depending how you set up your experiment.

Yes, so it is forbidden by Paypal ToS right?

[BitPal]

Yes, so it is forbidden by Paypal ToS right?

I do not believe it is. Paypal even responded to me something like "you are allowed to trade Bitcoins however we can not provide buyers or sellers protection to digital products".

"are for the sale of certain items before the seller has control or possession of the item,"
This is probably the reason why Paypal "hates" the miner preorder sellers and most of their "hate" is due chargebacks and not understanding the concept of BTC.

[coinpr0n]

Great to see some replies, I've been a bit busy recently. Currently I have not enough time to start this project, but I'll get back to this in month or less. I am going to start with transfers of less than 0.1 BTC and hopefully build my trust level on the way.

...

Seen it advertised and was curious to see if it worked. Are you up and running now?

[StefanThePro]

This is massively popular on the darknet and if you want to abide by the TOS, ship a postcard as the physical product

[BitPal]

Seen it advertised and was curious to see if it worked. Are you up and running now?

Advertised? I'm not up and running yet, this is currently not my n:o one priority.

This is massively popular on the darknet and if you want to abide by the TOS, ship a postcard as the physical product

Yeah, I probably implement shipping of a postcard -method, too. Thank you for pointing out deep web, didn't know the market has expanded that much.

[johnestim]

I have traded a couple of times with BTC and paypal. There were times, when paypal approwed chargeback, i had lost a lot of money. Too bad this community has a lot of scamers. Paypal has a strange attitude to anything related to BTC aswell.

[coinpr0n]

Seen it advertised and was curious to see if it worked. Are you up and running now?

Advertised? I'm not up and running yet, this is currently not my n:o one priority.

Maybe I confused it... is this not your site? https://bitp.al/ 

[vervolioman]

I have traded a couple of times with BTC and paypal. There were times, when paypal approwed chargeback, i had lost a lot of money. Too bad this community has a lot of scamers. Paypal has a strange attitude to anything related to BTC aswell.

This mean you should not use Paypal, you can loose your money anytime

One would say it cant happen - but it can

[deepceleron]

Seen it advertised and was curious to see if it worked. Are you up and running now?

Advertised? I'm not up and running yet, this is currently not my n:o one priority.

This is massively popular on the darknet and if you want to abide by the TOS, ship a postcard as the physical product

Yeah, I probably implement shipping of a postcard -method, too. Thank you for pointing out deep web, didn't know the market has expanded that much.

That's about stupid. Electronic proof of delivery is a cursory requirement to seller protection, but PayPal can unilaterally decide to refund when the seller returns the "item" with their own proof of delivery. Or refund whenever they want. Or pull money out of your account because payment was "unauthorized" or charged back. Or close your account and freeze your funds.

Your PayPal adversary is fallen-state cybercriminals who have stolen PayPal account credentials and are looking for suckers to send them something irreversible like Bitcoin.

Click the NEWBIE README sticky, and go to the linked PayPal thread. You're gonna have a bad time.

[BitPal]

Paypal has a strange attitude to anything related to BTC aswell.

Yeah, they're a bit bipolar about it.

Maybe I confused it... is this not your site? https://bitp.al/  

This is the weirdest coincidence I've faced for awhile.

Your PayPal adversary is fallen-state cybercriminals who have stolen PayPal account credentials and are looking for suckers to send them something irreversible like Bitcoin.
Click the NEWBIE README sticky, and go to the linked PayPal thread. You're gonna have a bad time.

I have read pretty much half the threads about PayPal's risks and my method is something that either forces PayPal to accept blockchain as a verification method or costs them a lot of money. If every fourth customer is a scammer then the business is not profitable. Only problem is, that the amount of work to make one transaction is humongous.

EDIT: Currently I just need to know, if the seller is somehow capable of seeing how the buyer paid for the item. I could accept only payments paid by PayPal balance.

[Probably]

My premium would be 10-20%. Does that seem too much to make a deal? This community is kinda flooded with opportunists and paranoid people.

You're not being very logical.

1. You create a crappy deal to sell through PayPal.
2. This only filters out legitimate purchasers, as ...
3. at that point they would be safer going with a legit exchange versus using paypal. one dispute and your paypal is locked and if you had anything pending going on they're screwed.
4. on your end paypal fees are to "eat fraud" that's why its more expensive. Except 10-20% will come nowhere near the costs you'd likely take on. Another logical flaw... it's not "1 in 4" to be profitable. You're on the winning end with the bitcoin holding. Its the person giving you money that don't know if they'll ever see the bitcoin, and they can't protest it. without losing their account / locking it because it was for bitcoin. Oops. I give you paypal, you never send, I can't report it. You can send, I can report it if I have a throwaway account. That's not a "rate" that's a "once it happens the first time you lose the account."
5. in the end you will only end up with people who don't care what your fee is because they're scamming you.


There are others on this board who have done paypal businesses with no problems. But their fees were nearly zero. And they were huge presences on this board and in various other channels that other huge presences would vouch for.


The problem isn't paypal. They have no way of knowing what you're doing. I send money for rent to my friend at zero fee. They don't know what I'm renting or that it's not a gift, etc. The problem is when someone scams you paypal will cut you off no questions asked if you're honest regarding what its about.

The position the other sellers were in was "I'll use paypal until they fuck up, and then it is done."

Their volume was so large that it was paypal's loss to not use them, essentially.

[BitPal]

You're not being very logical.

Thank you for criticism, it is always good to keep feet on the ground. I have to charge high premiums for first purchases, because unfortunately newcomers are more probably to be scammers. Returning customers and perhaps trusted members are getting discounted premiums (8, 6, 4, 2, 1)%. I will probably start with 10% and then lower the premium every time. My fee policy is open for suggestions.

1. I sell bitcoins for PayPal balance money and this experiment might scale in the future, if I have the time and resources.
2. I hope not since most PayPal sellers offer higher premium.
3. Paypal is instant, therefore attractive way to buy bitcoins. I start with small amounts building the trust.
4. My precautions are theoretically bulletproof, but as said I will test this with small amounts. "1 in 4" is a rough estimate: every scammer costs me 20$ and with average new purchases of 50$ it will be covered.
5. Adjusting the fee with amount of scammers and identifying reliable people among the community is essential.

one dispute and your paypal is locked and if you had anything pending going on they're screwed.

This is a good point, thank you. I had to further develop my model, but now things look even better. I implemented a trust level system and fees are calculated using the system.

The problem isn't paypal. They have no way of knowing what you're doing.

I agree with this, people are demonizing PayPal as an anti-bitcoin, but they are just doing their job.

[meee]

You're crazy. Nah not really, I commend you for having a go! I'm sorry, not read all the thread as too tired and about to hit the sack. But just posting so I can come back easy and read how you got on!

Thanks

[Probably]

I agree with this, people are demonizing PayPal as an anti-bitcoin, but they are just doing their job.

Yes - that's the lapse in logic. People use bitcoin due to the semi-anonymity, yet sniffle when paypal has no choice but to kill accounts because a semi-anonymous currency is untrackable.


Think of it the other way, how would paypal ever decide who was right with a bitcoin transaction without requiring authentication of some sort, ie, knowing 2 addresses on both ends and being able to witness the transaction as well as an input "this is a deal of X$ for Y bitcoins" field?

They have every right to not support a currency/valuestore/method that undermines their business. In order for them to make it non-fraudulent they'd have to perform extensive credit check / audits beforehand (slowing down the process) and build an interface as I've mentioned to track the payment.

Now explain why they'd do all that, if support and adoption of bitcoin threatens their livelihood in the market? To take an extra cut off bitcoin sales, perhaps?


Paypal is clearly anti-bitcoin, until it can monetize it and then it will be pro-bitcoin very fast when it adds an authentication layer on top of it that people opt-in to, just like they've opted in to these other exchanges. The problem there isn't paypal, its the credit card companies and banks that bitcoin would kill off if paypal adopted this strategy.

[rurikar]

If you could somehow guarantee not dealing with the ton of scammers you are definitely going to come into contact with, I think you could make quite a bit of money selling bitcoin with paypal. Just remember that you also have to worry about Paypal just as much as the scammers though.

[BCB]

Paypal is one of the BEST ways to buy and sell bitcoin.  But as soon as paypal figures out what you are doing they will terminate your account and freeze any funds in your account and linked bank / card for up to 180 day.