Bitcoin Forum

First Speculation thread for Mastercoin VS Bitcoin ever

I am proud to be one of the first in the speculation section to make a speculation thread on Mastercoin and tieing it too Bitcoin, for the sake of speculation  ;D


BTC - 21 million coins                                                MSC  - 600k  -Mastercoins
Market cap - 4 billion dollars                                       44 million dollars
Price per BTC - $420                                                   price per Mastercoin - $105
World GDP right now is around 53 trillion               Total derivatives market in the world -$1.2 quadrillion in value
BTC is divisible                                                     MSC is divisible
Ratio BTC/ MSC-----  1                           :                     40
each fraction of MSC in relation to bitcoins coin cap  is currently therefore 0.25/40 = 0.00625 = $2.50 MSC/21MILLION (just for speculative purposes) in relation with Coin cap


A good explanation of mastercoin speculative value is written below by Luckybit in an easy to understand manner

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Yes please read the thread. You'll learn a lot about Mastercoin and ColoredCoin.
Unlike DillPickleChips, I believe with over a 180 trillion dollar market cap for derivatives in the US alone there is plenty of room for both Mastercoin and ColoredCoin.
My reason for preferring Mastercoin is that it does not depend on Bitcoin being stable and isn't backed by Bitcoin, you don't have to worry about Bitcoin or even know what Bitcoin is. Mastercoin is high level enough and can be built in such a way that you don't have to directly interact with Bitcoin to play with it. Perhaps ColoredCoin will reach that state too but ColoredCoin has a lot less development funding, a lot less momentum, and my opinion is you should hedge your bets on this. Get some Mastercoins while they are "a steal" cheap and if you see a clone which is even better than buy the cloneCoin and you'll probably profit from them both as the market is big enough for many players.
Bitcoin has around a 2.5 billion dollar market cap. So to put this into perspective we are talking about a market cap in the trillions of dollars for Mastercoin, the clone, Bitshares and ColoredCoin. 100 Mastercoins could easily be worth over a million dollars and right now it's at a price of around 10 Bitcoins so that is a very cheap gamble. It has a similar amount of risk to buying Bitcoins at the current price and if you think it will go up to $1000 then perhaps buying it at $200 isn't much of a risk.
The good news is if you do buy Bitcoins and Mastercoins only you'll probably watch the price of both go up because they are in synergy, in symbiosis. Mastercoin is what will help drive the price of Bitcoin into the $100,000 range so that 10 Bitcoins is a million dollars. So when I say 100 Mastercoins is a million dollars I'm assuming the price of Mastercoins will stay exactly as it is right now forever at 0.1 BTC.
But if you want my true opinion, I believe it will be at least 3-4 BTC per Mastercoin even if there were half a dozen clones, Bitshares, etc. The reason is you have to consider the amount of marketshare Mastercoin will have when compared to the clones, to Bitshares, and to ColoredCoin. Even if it has a very small amount of market share in a 100+ trillion dollar market cap it's a ridiculous amount of money so I advise you to take out your spread sheet and do the math for yourself and if you decide to take the risk only risk what you can afford to lose.
To move beyond speculation, I have personally tested the decentralized Mastercoin exchange prototype and it was a smooth sail. The fact that it's only early November and the prototype is working indicates to me that a nice polished client can be available sometime in December. Mastercoin as far as I know is the first of the decentralized exchanges to be successfully tested but I hear rumors that ColoredCoin had something working in 2012.

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Some more speculative fuel - by OP

MasterCoins features will things like betting for instance a decentralised satoshi dice being added to the protocol- lets call it Masterdice, satoshi dice was sold for $12 million, therefore if one feature of mastercoin could generate $12 million feature, whats happens when theirs hundred of useful features !? 8) Speculate

Speculate the price of mastercoin in one year!

For more info on Mastercoin, see my signature!

I'm very very excited about MSC but a lot of the arguments here are flawed.

You can't assume it will infiltrate the derivatives market just like that. Bitcoins and mastercoins are new technologies that create new markets far more than they disrupt current ones. Like bitcoin, it will probably create many new users who will start buying and selling shares who never would have traded a derivative in their life before this opportunity. Anyway, I still don't like the comparison of using current markets. I prefer to look at it like, BTC is useful for moving money around the world extremely quickly at a low cost (with the added bonus that it can be anonymous). The mastercoin protocol is useful as it allows not only this but also allows people to trade shares, trade currencies, bet, lend, hedge and do pretty much anything they would do with their money in the real world without having to go near an institution that charges fees for granting access to these opportunities. 

Further, just purely looking at the maths, since only 600k of MSC were minted, if they achieve anything like the adoption of BTC, their price will be far far higher than 3/4 times BTC. 100 times higher maybe.

This is Exodus.

Derivatives are by definition derived from something. MSC's worth isn't derived from anything. Therefore it isn't a derivative, and since it doesn't have nearly the network advantage Bitcoin has, its just another crapcoin, only marginally more crappy than the others due to the fact that it also bloats the blockchain.

Not true, Mastercoins worth is derived from the bitcoin block chain and the features made on it through the protocol  ;)

Semantic dancing is the tactic of morons, cowards, and people who know that they are wrong.

none of the above, however i might have been off with the use of semantic  8)

We weren't talking about it as a derivative of bitcoin. We were talking about how it enables derivatives trading and speculating as to its possible worth given this ability.

Are you being paid for this thread?

unfortunately not, i just thought it was a good discussion point

move this thread to alt coin area, please.

+1

It's a protocol layer that operates leveraging the power of the Bitcoin blockchain, thus is directly tied into the Bitcoin network. I first heard about mastercoins from adamstgBit in the mtgox wall thread early in August.

mastercoin isn;t an alt coin, its a protocol which piggys back ontop of the bitcoin block chain, therefore this section is actually appropriate in regards to it being an extension to bitcoin and an extension to bitcoin speculation, as both mastercoin and bitcoin will cause some speculative change in value to each other by co-existing together, thanks

OP, are you paid per thread view, or number of replies/pages?

My gripe with mastercoin is that as something built on bitcoin using it will entail bitcoin transaction fees presumably on top of mastercoin fees. Right now this isn't a big deal. However bitcoin is capped at what? 70,000 transactions a day? Bitcoin functions best as a reserve asset, like gold. If you can send bitcoin from Mexico to China in one hour you probably don't care if the transaction ends up costing $5 equivalent. It's still way cheaper than a wire transfer. However if you're using mastercoin as an exchange you're looking at paying a bitcoin fee everytime you enter an order or perform any other actions. Now I'm not saying it won't have compelling uses, but I'll bet it would be more cost effective to use the mastercoin forks running on less busy altcoins. Any Litecoiners up for a Leviticus address?

You may be right but there are compelling reasons to build on bitcoin too. Security being one. The main one reason however is that bitcoin is the front runner in crypto-currencies by a distance. Using its network fosters far more innovation than running on an alt coin. There's been disturbingly little innovation in the space considering the opportunities Satoshi Nakomoto opened up to us. This is a well-funded project that has some really exciting propositions. Its place is on the bitcoin network. It can flourish there most. It will provide the bitcoin developers with challenges down the line for sure. If they can't meet them, mastercoin may have to migrate and contingency planning for that is already in place.   

+1 from me as well. Keep the latest flavor-of-the-monthcoins in the appropriate subform.

I suppose you're right yeah. When Satoshi Nakamoto invented bitcoin, he just intended people to buy and sell them on exchanges and not actually do anything else with them. All he had in mind were pump and dumps, weekend dips and bi-annual bubbles. He didn't actually intend them to be revolutionary for humanity at all. Best we forget about any other silly aspirations people may have.

Heh, yeah. I didn't want to be too quick to judge, because admittedly, I don't fully understand how mastercoin works. I read the white paper and some articles on it, and I have an idea of what it's supposed to do, and it's something that I believe is inevitably coming to bitcoin. I think the reason people are dismissing it outright (and understandably so) is that it has the word "coin" in the name. That was a pretty poor marketing decision. With so many new altcoins coming out all the time, we can't be bothered to learn up on them all and what makes them slightly different than the last one, only to realize that it offers no functional advantages. As a result, we've been conditioned to pass right over thiscoin or thatcoin. Mastercoin isn't even a coin, in the sense that the other alts are, it's purpose and goals are entirely different.

marcelus would if Mastercoin was an altcoin. Furthermore:


You should explore what a protocol like Mastercoin would mean to the market place in value if it can actually provide a trustless way of creating contracts, betting, distributed exchange, smart property signatures, etc.

There is still quite the ignorance in the BTC community that you can directly invest in the colored coins idea(+more features) in the form of Mastercoins. Most people active in the community are aware and excited about colored coins, but the Mastercoin project is so easily dismissed with the usual "premined and centralized" accusations, and I think this is wrong.

So is there a mastercoin/ripple gateway? I'm serious. I could figure out how to transact XRP/BTC in an automated manner. It appears that mastercoins are currently only trading out of a spreadsheet. What is the ETA on a bitcoin/mastercoin exchange?

Not sure yet, nothing concrete. I don't see there being a MSC <-> XRP link but I could very well be wrong. Perhaps in the form of MSC-backed user-currency RippleCoins that would follow the value of XRP.

You can watch the developers log their progress in this project development thread  (300 BTC Coding Contest: Distributed Exchange (MasterCoin Developer Thread) (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=292628.0)).

And being condescending interblag forums will help save humanity and free us from enslavement from the big banks and then we can all sit in a circle and sing Kumbaya, amirite? You could explain why moving it to the altcoin forum is a bad idea rather than being a prick, but I suppose that would be too easy. And not involve a Moral High Horse +3/+3.



2 minutes of poking around on Google netted me the following explanation of Mastercoin from Reddit: "The Mastercoin protocol layer mediates between the existing bitcoin protocol and users-generated currencies. It is intended to be a base upon which anyone can build their own currency."

At the risk of sounding obtuse, I don't see how this doesn't relate directly to altchains; this allows users to build their own currencies based on the Bitcoin protocol, correct? Which would by definition make them alternative cryptocurrencies? Perhaps I have misunderstood and/or this description is inadequate.





EDit:

Pretty much this. If MSC is a protocol and not a "proper" cryptocurrency, why put the word "coin" in its name at all?

Because it's more than just about user currencies. Read on :)

Give me a sec to pull up the Whitepaper for you.

Edit: https://sites.google.com/site/2ndbtcwpaper/

I did my homework, and as far as I am concerned Mastercoin is bloating the blockchain.

with time it will implode.

I suppose it'd be a good idea to xpost this here now:
Clearing up 10 Misconceptions about the Mastercoin Protocol (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=328118.msg3523236#msg3523236)

For you: see #2 :)

I've heard the DEx should be ready for OSX and Linux users by the end of next week. Windows shortly after.

This plus the meme-based explanation in your post prior to this one helped my understanding of MSC significantly.


I do like this concept on paper and it would address several of my concerns with Bitcoin. Whether or not it will ultimately be successful, I suppose we shall see...allow me to backpedal and apologize for some of my earlier remarks now :P

no worries :) we definitely shall see if Mastercoin can cut it.

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming, let us speculate!

Bitcoin is a protocol as much as it is a currency - think of mining, proof of work, trustless transactions, anonymity. Why put the word 'coin' in its name?

PS. I guess I don't have an explanation of why this shouldn't be moved to the altcoin section. I just take exception with people dismissing the project when it has so much to offer after a 4-year period of empty space since bitcoin was released. It's bloody well time to harnass this technology and start making things happen instead of merely having 'play money' for gambling. Ironic I know considering this is the speculation forum.  

Simple idea

HTTP:TCP/IP::Mastercoin:Bitcoin

This.

Yeah, this is a layout I can understand and support.



OK, as far as speculation goes, let me start with the most simple question for potential discussion: What gives MSC it's inherent value? Or, putting it more bluntly, "why should I believe this protocol will raise in value"?

Say Mastercoin didn't exist for a moment. Please consider: What might the value be to a market may be if there was a money protocol that would allow a trustless, distributed way of creating contracts, betting, distributed exchange, smart property signatures, etc.? No middle man, no associated costs with such a middleman, no associated trust necessary of a middleman. This would be like what bitcoin has accomplished, but just at a higher functioning, higher capability level*

*Assuming the logic for all the features are sound.

Yes and to separate mastercoin the currency from mastercoin the protocol, the currency will have value as it will act as the gold standard for all of these economic transactions the protocol allows for. It will have value as it will be required for collateral.

This is completely analogous to bitcoin the currency having value as it is required to avail of the things the bitcoin protocol allows one to do.

when will the homepage work again?

I'm assuming you mean the distributed exchange. This is software you will have to download. I'm told it's ready for linux and macs late next week. Windows shortly after.

There is already a homepage up and running. mastercoin.org.

i mean mastercoin.org   I have tried to acces it for a week but i get "server not found" every time.

working fine for me...

/\$MST(MASTERCOIN) v//^LOOKS GOOD! ~i'm loading the boat!  ;D

https://www.cryptsy.com/markets/view/62

How about Android? On the way available? Thx

SInce bitcoin already has value, it does not seem very clear why there is a need for a whole new altcoin to serve as collateral. Is there some technical problem that made it impossible for bitcoin itself to be used as collateral?

-MarkM-

This is not the real mastercoin, do not invest in this.

Bitcoin doesn't support the distributed exchange or smart property or betting or all the other cool things mastercoin allows.

But it does, the whole point of the mastercoin project is that such things can in fact be done using the bitcoin blockchain.

So far I have not come across any technical problem/glitch that necessitates a whole alternative currency to serve as collateral instead of bitcoins themselves serving as the collateral.

-MarkM-

What an idiotic thing to say.

MSFT is moved on NYX's exchange, that doesn't make MSFT a derivative of NYX.

Mastercoin is moved on Bitcoin's blockchain, that doesn't make Mastercoin a derivative of Bitcoin.

The two examples don't analogize. Mastercoin makes use of Bitcoin's allowed functionality to add functionality and value to Bitcoin, MSFT just exchanges shares through NYX.

~ I know that's what i'm saying i've been talking to BitJohn and Vern in depth about this!

MSC ? is not listed on any exchange that i'm aware of!!!

 ::)

~*~/\$MST-Mastercoin~*~the real one I've been buying up all I can, imo it's way undervalued!!! -vvv-(*link below*)-vvv-



https://www.cryptsy.com/markets/view/62