Bitcoin Forum

The last week, with the last difficulty and 900$/BTC the price in cex.io was 0,086BTC/Ghs or 77$/Ghs

With simple maths 77$ minus 16%= 65,016$ / 1200$/BTC = 0,054BTC/Ghs for the same bitcoin production.

¿Are we stupid? ¿are we paying less than the real price the last week or more this week?

I cant understand cex.io investors.

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                                                      Edit 19/01/14
Cex.io Price for 1 GH/s: 0.046BTC

Diff. inc.       1 Year Production             Profft

15%                       0.052BTC              0.006 (13%)

20%                       0.043BTC             -0.003 (-6%)

25%                       0,037BTC             -0.009 (-19%)

no but they think their customers are  ;D

+1

They think right:   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=347053.0

 ;)

Consider this scenario.

I have 1 btc. I buy some ghs on the exchange for say .07btc per ghs. i mine with it for a few days I make some more btc with it. Then sell my position in the exchange because the price of ghs went up to .075.

Its like getting dividends. Also you can trade on the exchange 24 hours a day.

Its not as simple as buy cloudmining from bfl that doesnt even start yet.. it starts right away.

Mind you, it isnt perfect, but you dont have to wait on a preorder set it up wait for shipping pay for electricity, keep your cat off your miner.. etc. it just works.

so that piece of mind is worth a premium alone, but you also get to make profits trading too should you be so inclined.

i lost about 20% there and pulled out. theres serious price manipulation going on. but if youre paying attention you can profit from it too.

Ok, I think you are right but, it isnt the same the last week? you can trade and blablabla but the price was better than this week.

Yep, bought around 50ghs, mined with it for couple of weeks before selling everything and still getting a profit alone by just selling my ghs. It was around 0.067 and now its reaching 0.73

Or think about it this way: It is a medium to high risk investment that pays 23% interest monthly. (at 0.07/GH and today's difficulty). Slightly better if you reinvest (compound) that interest by buying additional GHS on a regular basis with your interest. Obviously the "interest" will continue declining as difficulty increases which is why over a long period of time the average returns are going to be worse because the cost/GHS will continue to decrease in line with the "interest".

Don't think of it as buying mining power but rather from the investment/returns perspective and it makes a lot more sense.

I've seen posts where people say the GHS price should be 0.03. If someone was offering you an investment that made better than 10%/week and was backed, at least somewhat, by a company rather than some guy with a hammer that would break kneecaps of debtors if they didn't pay that would be pretty popular, hence the current cost.

The price isn't as relevant as you would think if you're trading. Volume and price fluctuations matter. If you haven't noticed theres a significant premium being paid on hardware at the moment as well. There is what is being asked, and there is getting it setup functioning and mining in your location on whatever pool you choose. CEX makes this very simple, but like most companies looking to make a profit, they don't do it for free.

I thought I was paying a significant premium for my asicminer blades. Only to find out they're already selling for twice and more than what I paid for them. 

cex.io investors is same as those that buy expensive miners in the market now... they don't understand difficulty...

They're only selling for more in fiat.  I guarantee they're worth less BTC now.  Would have been better to buy BTC

I bought today 4 hours ago because in fiat is close to what I think is its price

I've profited using Cex.io the past month or so. I bought 2 GH/s for around 0.078 originally and sold at .085 a week later after collecting mining payments. I've currently got about .12 GH going, but with my referrals I almost have a free GH running at no cost.

I really like the site it's easy, fast and the merged mining with Devcoins, Namecoins, etc. is a nice bonus.

most of them are clueless , they just want to enter the mining game.

cex.io is the fastest & safest way for newbie to enter bitcoin mining. You get launched right away, get to see how a mining pool operates and can exit at any time. Plus the convenience of buying fractional GH/s amounts with guaranteed 100% uptime. That should be enough to understand the economics of mining and give you an idea how much you’d be making if purchasing a “real” miner.

agree, pay more for the convenience :)

That sounds nice, but I think most people that buy cex.io expect to make money. At least in the end they learn something -- the hard way.

Ask a stupid question but what's the best alternative to cex.io?

I'm selling my mining hardware and buying Gh at cex as the value of my hardware has gone up, Australian electricity costs are stupidly high and my internet is unreliable at best.  (Internet goes down and my miners are doing jack.)

</end stupid question>

Is mining alternative coins in the same boat as mining bitcoin?  Was reading about how one guy moved from bitcoin to Litecoin and ended up mining about 30% more...

or to buy bitcoins

This is how I think of it.  Instead of coins sitting in a wallet, coins at CEX are generating a slight income.  And if you want to trade periodically, you can make some profits that way too.

I don't think anyone goes on CEX and buys a load of GHs just like that.

Most of the users probably buy a small amount, and then use the BTC made from it in a few days to buy more and more. If you buy and sell the GHs at the right times like you would for BTC itself, then it could be very profitable.

You are not getting 23% monthly. Your return drops significantly every 12 (or less) days.

You write as if you expect to get all of your initial investment back, but you won't. The price of 1 GH/s drops faster(on average) than the amount you receive as income. The price has dropped 25% in the last month, so even your exaggerated 23% was not enough to break even.

There is simply no way to make a profit at the current price. Since you lose money every time you buy cex.io, you are compounding your losses when you reinvest.

The price should be around 0.03 BTC because that is the total amount of income you will receive from 1 GH/s. Why pay 0.07 when you are only going to get back 0.03?

You can potentially make profits by trading, but trading is going to lose money on average because the price is dropping. For every trader that makes money there will at least one trader that loses money.

I urge the two of you to make a serious effort to determine the total income you will receive from 1 GH/s and then justify paying the current price for that income.

Sshhhh.  Quiet.  You'll let the cat out of the bag.

+1

You can make profit using CEX even if you only speculate ;)

I do get what you're saying, but I don't think it works out exactly that way.  The GH price has been on a downtrend lately, but the last couple of days has been heading upward slowly, and at the moment is higher than what I've paid for most of my GH.  If I were to sell my holdings now, I'd be in profit. 

I appreciate if you think of CEX as mining, it is way overpriced and there's never going to be a positive return on investment.  And that's how most mining is nowadays.  But if you just treat CEX as another commodity (buy low, sell high) you can still make a profit.  The extra mining income is just gravy.

At current prices, I'm up 70% in the last month or so in my CEX holdings.

Maybe you nay-sayers are right and I haven't turned a profit at cex.io and it is all a big scam, but my wallet tells me otherwise. I don't have a single bitcent there at the moment, but my total withdrawals exceed my total inputs, and by better margins than I described previously, so I'm happy. I'm really sorry for you if you lost money by panic selling during a drop or buying on hype during a high point. That doesn't mean that everyone makes poor decisions or that the service or price is in any way flawed. I profited through the last few difficulty adjustments from you and others who did the same.

You guys are mostly looking at it wrong.

Look at it this way on cex.io...
GH = shares of stock
mining output = dividends

Buy low, make dividends, sell high.

BTC goes down, BTC/GH goes up
Difficulty jumps, BTC/GH goes down

You buy/sell the GH like stock shares, so it's not really $60~80/gh or whatever the cost is.  You can sell the GH at any time.

Who has implied "I have made money trading, therefore most people will make money trading"? I looked back through the thread and couldn't see anyone. From what I can tell there are a few categories of people here:

1. People that believe money can be made or lost by careful or not so careful trading / botting.
2. People that believe easy money can be made by mining; they don't read or participate on these forums, but they do pump money into the system.
3. People that have a vested interest in seeing the market on cex.io fluctuate wildly in order to profit from it and are thus trying to spread FUD/hype about it.
4. People that wish they had enough to invest, or made some poor choices leading to big losses and just want others to share in their misery.

I would say most people fall into category 1 but the most vocal people fall into 3.

If cex.io wanted this to be a mining operation they wouldn't have implemented a no-fee commodity trading platform. Without an external auditor of their platform I'm sure they are making plenty on the rises and falls themselves. If there's anything negative to be said about them, that's it right there. Everything else is just crying (4).

You are right that the value of a GHS will approach 0 over time, but it will never reach absolute 0 unless the value of a bitcoin and all other SHA256 coin is also 0. It is just as easy to make money in a declining market by playing the short term rises and falls. The value of a share of GHS on Cex is much different than the value of the GHS warming my basement in both positive and negative ways. It is smart to understand those differences before investing, but isn't required. The market says 0.074 right now, so that's what it is. Find someone who cares nothing for profit and is willing to sell their cex.io GHS to you at 0.03 on the belief that's all they should be worth and I'm sure we'll find people willing to buy all they are selling at that price.

You provide your personal experience of success as a counter to my "nay-saying" without also noting that your success is unusual. You have to at least agree with me that the typical/average cex.io investor will lose money. Otherwise, you are promoting unrealistic expectations.

The only reason that 1 GH/s sells for 0.07 BTC is ignorance. My goal is to eradicate this ignorance, and these claims of making a profit aren't helping.

Ok, but why do you want the price to be lower. I don't consider myself to be some kind of trading genius by any stretch. Nor did I babysit it for hours on end for small trades. It was an interesting hobby for a little while, but for the moment I am out.

It would probably be in my interest to buy and hold right now, which means I would love the price you suggest. There are more people interested in making profit on the volatility so the price is higher. I am, instead, diversifying into several group buys which are a much better long-term dean even than .03, although they unfortunately don't start right away.

I think in the end our goals are the same. We are both saying that the price is too high for mining. The difference is that I'm saying to use it for what it is: A commodity trading platform with no transaction fees where the commodity or it's real value is mostly irrelevant except that there is a dividend. You are saying to stop buying until the price reaches a level that mining is a viable investment. I don't think cex.io is a mining platform, and I don't think it ever will be. The price will always be inflated at times because of the hype/panic cycle. My suggestion is to use your knowledge of those cycles to profit, because with the amount of traffic the site gets, the day will never come when it is priced right for mining.

Yes, it's a kind of strange play,  it's a short term "short" against BTC,  unfortunately it is a long term bet against difficulty going up.

Very tough trade.  But in terms of USD profitability one may come out ahead. 

Most of users there are small players buying few GHS. IF you play it good (watching for diff change and all that) you can earn alot of BTC/GHS. It sure isnt for long term mining like bu and forget.

They're only selling for more in fiat.  I guarantee they're worth less BTC now.  Would have been better to buy BTC

false, it's not that they dont understand difficulty, it's the greater fool theory,

cex.io started as a legit hashrate exchange that were priced competitively(cheaper) vs the miners you could physically buy at the time, without the setup/upkeep headaches.  

Now it's a ponzi scheme, the guys owning the shares thinking they can always sell the shares at little loss to the next fools and meanwhile they can mine some btc.  The fools buying those shares at 3-4x above market think the same - that there will always be some greater fool who will buy their shares down the road at llittle loss, the stable flat price further enforces this false belief.

Hence the whole thing is a house of cards propped up by all the market participants all thinking they wont be the ones holding the bag after the price gap up from $200 to $1000. However there will be a tipping point once the difficulty reaches so high the average account total GHs becomes too little, then the dump will begin -  someone will be left holding the bag that's for sure.

I got out once the cex.io goes above 2x the hardware price.

duh buy .1 gh  and point 500gh at the miner from your in home mining.   then grow the .1gh .   you must own some gh from them to do this.


  all my in home mining  points to their pool.  

 I am up to 10gh of their hash.  I have 2gh in referral.  the service of exchanging your nmc to btc for free is worth a lot of money.


 anyone with a big rig that is not using cex.io  please do click on my referral below and do your self a favor make more money mining with them then any other pool.

I can show you what a knc will save using them as their miner.. and if you have a knc and do not point  your mining to them you are wasting money.

   a 550gh knc miner earns .3btc a day   or about 4gh from them.   point a knc at them for 5 days.  change your nmc to btc every day. and then buy  the 4gh with the btc and maybe .5gh with the nmc…  every day for 5 days.  you will have grown your .1 gh buy in  to 22 gh .. then sell it. then pull the btc out.  rinse and repeat day after day for 5 days then pull the btc out.

 more money more money.  if you understand what I wrote your would reverse your statement as it is the ignorant one.    due to 'the only reason' part of your statement
    
 my reason is a  reason and makes your statement incorrect.

 To be fair to you  anyone that buys 20 gh from them as their one and only btc investment is not that bright.

But I want you to realize my method is really good and will almost certainly make you money from cex.io

This is what I've been doing, but on a much smaller scale.  I have 21 GH of hardware at home pointed at their pool.  I also invested about .75 BTC in their GH.  In less than a month that has grown to 25 GH and at current CEX prices I've more than doubled my BTC.

If they ever get IxCoin and DevCoin trading going that'll be another bonus.

yep  by far the best of all btc mining pools.   It would be nice if someone read this post and joined with my referral link.. A nice big rig I would get some free hash power.  they would save a lot in fees. win win

And if you just want to join without helping me at 0 cost to you…  use

https://www.cex.io/


although I prefer   you click my signature link.

I read these anti cex.io  threads and can't help but to think they are started by owners of other pools.



http://blockchain.info/pools   you look at the chart cex.io is a  huge pool  it has the lowest fees.  plus  it allows free exchange of the nmc coins you earn.

A big rig like a knc miner earns .5 nmc a day.   If you are running 2 knc miners in house cex.io  will make you thousands in extra money in a year.


The key is when you build the extra gh from your miners with your nmc  + btc earned  do that 2 times a day. 

 Then  convert the gh to btc and pull it out  1 time every 5 days or so.   this will make a lot of money for you.  more then other pools.

 and what did it cost  as little as buying .1gh of hash  or about .0073btc to start.

Or perhaps maybe we're protecting out thousands of BTC by not concentrating all the mining power into a single pool  ::)

Chasing pennies while dropping dollars...

Maybe the right response is a competing commodity market / pool rather than FUD about this "guarantee" of losses.

I'm not sure if we are in imminent danger of a 51% attack, however if there is a message we need to get out it isn't this drumbeat that it's a terrible service with no chance or an extremely low chance of making profit, since there is evidence that's false. The message should be that everyone with private hashpower pointed at the pool should be ready to pull it out quickly if it ever appears that we are in imminent danger of 51%. Selling GHS won't change the pool's power, but all this private power pointed at it is probably making some difference.

Of course the conspiracy theorist in me wonders how likely it is that the only hashpower they control is what is actually on GHash.IO. I tend to think they are not mining 100% of their capacity there in order to not spook the community. It wouldn't be in their best interest to destroy the currency, but then again a short term play where the value crashes temporarily may be in some people's interest.

I'm currently making a loss... waiting for price to go up so I can sell and at least to break even.

But it's another option than trading at exchanges and the site is a breeze to use, plus you can keep an eye on all all kind of stats about your GH/s shares vs pool speed and difficulty.

Same as how I don't understand people buying expensive usb erupters..

I was wondering about those too. They're really expensive! No way to make a profit.

After the bitcoin price rise too many newbie lured into the mining game without knowing a single thing about difficulty

I have 13 USB Block Erupters that reached ROI and then some (electricity included). The very tiny profit was invested in CEX and profits from that got re-invested. I also pointed my miners to GHash. I'm not sure that was the best move but i keep my chin over the water level. I don't make a bunch of dollars but i never intended to either. I am on the + side and i also became a hodler (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=375643.0;topicseen) a couple of hours ago..  :)

Comments?

If you're going to say you made back your ROI (on Block Erupters no less) please specify that you made back your fiat.  No Block Erupters have been able to make back their BTC unless they were purchased second hand or stolen.  Most newbies will think that hardware is worth getting now.

I'm glad you made a profit but the reality is that had the $ been spent buying more BTC directly you would have more BTC.  That's the debate with all the mining hardware now - will you make more BTC with it over its lifetime than you would have by buying BTC outright.  Currently no hardware for sale seems to be worth buying.

Fiat ROI is only realized if it is sold and retrieved from an exchange.  At least with BTC ROI you ca have it sitting in your cold wallet.

Well - CEX.io works for me - and I'm grateful for what they offer.

To be able to buy and sell Ghs instantly offers a whole new dynamic to mining, which is a mixture of the trading exhanges and mining at the same time.

Yes - Just buying to mine will likely not make roi - but buying and selling and mining while the price is stable is an excellent way of fighting the depreciation of mining hardware.

As with everything - you make your choices, but as CEX,io is not just about mining - it would be misleading to write it off on that basis alone.

Can you imagine how boring it would be if we all thought alike. How impossible it would be to buy and sell anything if we all had exactly the same interests and desires. Profit isn't the only or the most important motivator for most people. In fact, very few people would be posting on message boards if profit was the most important motivator. Cex.IO is fun for some people, not for others. Collecting and mining with hardware is fun for some people, not for others. Making profit by buying and selling BTC is fun for some people, not for others. All of this creates a market. Most people lose money going to a casino, but that doesn't mean they are unpopular, or that some people will go with the motivation to have fun and maybe make a lot of money. Those same people will return over and over with the same motivation set. Standing outside the casino and warning people against going in because of the odds is irrelevant, and rather silly, especially when most people going in are intimately familiar with the odds. Not every play in a casino is a winner, nor is every play on Cex.IO, buy/sell of BTC, hardware preorder, stock investment, you name it. You can play armchair investment quarterback by claiming that purchasing BTC a year ago was the best investment, but if everyone had done that rather than creating the ASIC craze, then the price would not have changed as dramatically as it did.

Personally, I love cex.io but it's a lot less about the mining than it is about the trading. Just like others pointed out, most of my BTC revenue from cex.io is generated from trading.

With the difficulty changes, there's plenty of BTC to be made with trading.

Well if you can double your hashing power via trading then you come out even based on current prices.  If you can do more than you made money.  Unfortunately most of us don't have that hot a hand.

cex.io is for trading and not buying hash to mine. You won't profit is you buy just for mining purposes :)

No.  Exchange are for trading.  KNC preorders are for mining.

CEX.IO is for trading while mining.

I've indeed almost doubled my GHS in the past 3 weeks, while also withdrawing worthy amounts of BTC more than once.

I can understand the hate that some have for it (totally justified given it's inflated GHS prices), but I'm glad it exists. I'd recommend it to others, though obviously I wouldn't suggest anyone to put all of their eggs in the same basket.

Sure. I don't deny it. The new money coming into the site makes it easy to accomplish good trades (in my favor). Just like any other investment, it always pays to know as much as you can about what you're getting into and I inform my referred friends as much as I can. No one's come back to complain... Yet.

You can check out my topic about CEX.IO investors: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=378439.0
It's about my own experience  :)

it makes no sense to invest in them :/

Just for the fun of it I set up 4 block erupters on Dec 14, all are operating at the same speed, one on each of the following pools. One of those pools is CEX/GHash. Here is where they are at today:

As of 2013231045 (Eastern US)

BTC Guild: 0.00154781
Eligius: 0.00140232
EclipseMC: 0.00141193
Ghash.IO: 0.0015161 (0.02307720 GHS * 0.0657)

The difference between the pools is small, likely due to luck variance only. I purposefully haven't played the market with cex.io and am attempting to make this as vanilla as possible. Reinvesting proceeds with the buy now function only.

I only have about 31 GH/s now on cex, in addition to my other ASIC hardware. With other pools, you also have to pay the management fee, so ghash.io is sort of subsidising their pool with the proceeds of the cloud operation, isn't it?

I think it is.
They don't even have any profit from merged mining on ghash.

Trading is all about psychology. I have found in my experience that CEX trollbox is filled with lurkers selling honeyed predictions about what is the wisest thing to do and how much they care about you CEX users and how "you seem like a decent guy so I'll tell you to sell or buy NOW!" What we have is classic psychological manipulation of sheeple. They bought their shares at a hight, sold low already, and want you to sell yours so they can recoup their losses through your ignorance.

Why people allow themselves to be manipulated by others on the same trading platform, especially by someone who spends all day in the chatbox doling out advice, is beyond me. The guy is making a living from making you lose.

I make money on it, but it DOES NOT work if you buy and sleep and forget. Not unless the difficulty resets to the downside drastically.

If you can't fathom trading in a bear market, then try it with $1 and see what you can do by following what I do.

Buy in on a dip (dips are assured) then wait a couple hours to a couple days, reinvesting what you make into GH, then set a sell point at the exact buy-point that you initially chose. Then that gets taken up and you choose a lower buy-back.

rinse and repeat.

you are effectively shorting the market. Do it a few times and you will be a believer.

I thought cex.io was a brilliant site until...

On 5-Jan-2014 11:AM someone (IP 5.63.144.220) hacked my yahoo email and then hacked my cex.io account. The hacker sold the GHS I had and withdrew the funds. I had deposited 10 btc into my cex account. My cex account is now frozen by cex and they are investigating – whatever that means.

How is Cex.IO supposed to protect you against a poor password on your yahoo email account?

Did you have 2-FA enabled on your account? It's a valid question...

And other than my grandmother and an old lady at my old work, I didn't know yahoo mail was still a "thing". I thought them having malware and the service not working well this past December would be enough to sway some users...

Either way, sorry for your loss. Good luck retrieving it with the Cex crew!

9.17 bitcoins were hacked from my account at cex.io. I am seeking an experienced investigator to help me retrieve the lost coins.

Was the merged mining been taken into account?

Did you have 2FA enabled on your account?