Bitcoin Forum

Sooner or later, I strongly believe that BTC users will be independently wealthy enough to band together and form their own free state. 

Bitcoin itself is just a tool, but there may be those who rally around it due to similar ideological, ethical, or tax reasons. 

Be it a micronation, a sea-steading flotilla, or a purchased territory, I'm interested in what the first tepid steps toward sovereignty would look like.  The difference is that bitcoin cannot and should not be centralized, but this upstart country would be able to directly benefit from the existing BTC infrastructure and help foster it's free exchange, legitimacy, and economic functions.

I'm interested in what you think:

1.) Is it likely that BTC users could purchase a small amount of land from a country crippled in debt? 

2.) What would be the prime locations?

3.) How would issues such as taxation work? 

It ultimately may be too early to tell, but I wouldn't be surprised to see this idea gain traction in the decades to come.

I think it's more likely that peer-to-peer states will come into existence. These p2p states would have the capability to create their own coins or to be non-monetary sovereign and elect to use btc or any cryptocurrency as their state currency.

i believe there's already one in japan. but it may not be exactly what you mean.

Please, no!
It's one of bitcoin's greatest asset that it is outside all nations and countries, please don't build a new one. Bitcoin shall not be used to create a new nation, but to destroy all the existing ones. Who needs a nation?

I do!

Has anyone read the book The Sovereign Individual: Mastering the Transition to the Information Age by James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg?

Although this book was published in 1999, it seems more apt now in 2013 with the rise of cryptocurrencies.  The authors' premise is that the Nation State will collapse from its growing bureaucratic weight, and that governance will become more local once again.  I highly recommend it.  

Couldn't agree more. I've never believed in this weird concept of "nationhood" - bitcoin is a great step towards the abolishment of this crazy man-made construct.

Been thinking about the same thing. Maybe something like an artificial floating island, possibly a huge ship-city that can sail around the world as needed. With an airport for easy travel and obviously easy to anchor a personal boat to it for those so inclined. We would have to import everything this way, but we can afford to and it would also mean that other nations benefit from us since they would be making money.

The idea of micro-nations have been tried before and has failed every time. No country will give a part of its territory away, no matter how poor it is. The Maharishi Mahesh Yogi even offered to pay $2 billion for just a few hectares of land, but even the poorest nations rejected his offer.

Even if some third world country is ready to part with its territory, no other UN member will recognize the micro-nation.

Hence the artificial floating city-ship in international waters. Nobody would have to give up land. Doesn't even have to be an official nation, just an independent community.

Most likely a seasteading community

But yes, it is a distinct possibility

I don't know whether the world police (i.e the US) will allow that. And additionally, the ship-nation will be extremely dependent on the outside world for even the basic amenities (food, clothes.etc).

For food at least there is fishery. Anything else, yes we would have to import unless we can somehow mine raw materials out of the ocean floor? But importing is a good thing so far as being left alone, nobody wants to cut off a steady money supply provided it's big enough. As for the US, they won't be in control for much longer and even if we did it right now, we could make a deal with China or Russia or some other large enough nation to pay them to guard us.

lets choose a warm island for that  :D

Something like that one?

http://motorboatsmonthly.media.ipcdigital.co.uk/9091/000004711/8083/bow-high.jpg

That building is anchored in the ocean bed. But such shallow areas are not available for us. Floating islands are the only option.

That's not a building, that's a render.  The "Freedom Ship" initiative collected several USD$million and failed to build anything. Most people agree it was a scam.

Naval architects, looking at the proposed size of the darn thing, were pretty unanimous in their "Why are people giving these idiots money to build something that can't exist?"  response -- mostly because the ocean has swells miles long that greatly exceed the proposed height of the vessel, meaning it would be an unsupported spar between wave crests - and at the proposed size/mass, we can't build anything capable of supporting itself on that big a span.  So, it would break up.

They say that it will travel the globe and would circle the Earth every two years, spending roughly 70 percent of its time moored outside major cities and ports. Since it will be too large to go in most harbours, it will have its own airport on the top deck to enable passengers to arrive and depart by air...

It seems that it is still afloat (http://www.motorboatsmonthly.co.uk/news/535726/plans-for-a-4500ft-floating-city-unveiled) (no pun intended)...

If you ever needed proof that the Discovery Channel employs no one who can do math and doesn't bother fact-checking, there it is.  This thing has been around for years and gotten no closer to construction.

Actually, I know this and agree with all that you say about this scam. Just thought that the image was appropriate for the purposes of reviving the discussion...

Something less ugly, for one thing. Less tall, more wide so as to actually be able to float.

One of the important things is aesthetics. It has to be nice to live there.

Well, by definition, the UN wouldn't accept it. But that's fine. The UN exists to serve countries. If you don't believe in countries, makes your pretty much incompatible with the ideals of the UN.

You don't need to purchase anything. You can easily move to Pitcairn and become head of a state. It has open immigration (http://www.immigration.pn/), no taxes.
The other possible location is Nauru.
The creation of "all legal" tourist destination is long overdue.

The Pitcairns are administered by the British. And they'll kick your a$$ if you try to create a micro-nation there. Same with Nauru. It is controlled by the USA (although by proxy). Both Pitcairn and Nauru will deport you in a matter of minutes if the FBI issues a warrant against you.

I recommend bribing some African dictator and creating a semi-micronation somewhere in Sub Saharan Africa.

And you will have to pay toll on a regular basis to all those tribes that are fighting between themselves for centuries there. The best place with security and safety in mind is Antarctica. It is officially neutral, doesn't belong to any state (though some are claiming) and has no government. Also, you can make friends with penguins living there (Tux the Penguin being the official mascot of Linux)...

Lol.. even for going there you will need special permits. Not possible at all.

If you decide to secede, you leave the jurisdiction of municipal law and become in a sense a subject of the international legal system just like, say, the Holy See. So you wouldn't actually need to obtain special permits from your government (if that was your point) since it is no longer your government...

As an alternative, you can drift somewhere in the international waters

This seems to be the only option. I don't think that artificial islands are economically viable, if the water depth is more than 15 meters. BTW... I am not extremely sure whether any part of the shallow ocean (<15 m depth) comes outside the EEZ of various nations.

If we are right, then all it takes is the purchase of ships and establishment of a floating colony somewhere in the open ocean under a flag of some liberal state. Or you can just buy a whole government of some of those micro-states...

What are entry requirements for Somalia?

Just hire sufficient private security get some land there and settle in.

I sort of hate to contribute to such a resoundingly stupid idea, but if you want shallow water out in the middle of the ocean, there is the Minerva Reef. 

It's long been known to sailors as a place where you can drop anchor with <20 meters of anchor chain, far from any land.  In fact a few "communities" have been attempted there, including one centered around a saloon that someone built on stilts and one that actually dredged local sand together to bring a dry surface above sea level, though none have gained any sort of permanence.

I think it was a stupid idea to use sand for such matters. Concrete blocks should do much better, piles probably being the best option...

The entry requirement is to have a fast enough / heavily armed enough boat to get past all those lovely Somalian pirates that love to roam the high seas and plunder whatever they can

I have heard of a few project to this effect already Ex: BlueSeed

No they plan on having defense measures on the ship and I think they even said something about having landing pads for fighter jets
https://blueseed.co/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Blueseed-Terraces-4-Large.jpg

Also this is not bitcoin related but could be incorporated into bitcoin philosphy
Lilypad cities that turn sea water into drinking water and sunlight into energy
http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/uploads/lilypad4.jpg

Also this was a failed town that was basically "The red light district" and just grew and grew until it was a giant unbelievable structure that could topple at any moment
If we could use their failure to create a better plan then we could probably get something out of this
http://www.deconcrete.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Kowloon-Cross-section-low.jpg
http://www.deconcrete.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/kowloon2.jpg
http://content.messynessychic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/kowlooncity.jpg

http://www.21stcentech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Blueseed-Gets-Connected.jpg

I liked the blueseed idea as well, a seasteading community could be viable if the right suppliers were targeted.  Bitcoin really just needs a stable internet connection to be a viable financial hub, but trips from world port to port could also facilitate trade.  Ideally the platforms could be made of more modular parts that could connect/disconnect at will. 

Which Somalian country? There is no unified government in Somalia. Currently it is consisted of a dozen or more "breakaway" states such as Puntland, Somaliland, Jubaland, the region under Al Shabab.etc

Also, knowledge of German language can help in some places:

http://www.thelocal.de/20100523/27373

I think it will work better when they have a fleet of like 10-20 because then they can have meetups that basically form a temporary land mass and they can take anything anywhere in the world and drop it off to someone in the water if needed

Has anyone heard of the "Colbert Nation" I think if we started an online nation like they did in the BBC show about how easy it is to make a nation and made online citizenship... Colbert might accept a nomination once we get sizable and even just him being nominated would bring many of his viewers to the bitcoin nation.

If i'm not mistaken, international law doesn't allow for a nation to extend (or create) it's territory in the middle of the sea by artificial means. The only alternatives would be to take possession of already existing territory, or get lucky to find a fresh volcano growing out of the surface of the sea in international waters that hasn't been claimed by anyone yet.


Though in the end, international law can be a bit flexible if you got enough political, financial and/or belic(sp?) firepower.

You are not really spreading your nation into the sea You are just claiming a nations flag as you sail into the ocean You can also declare your house an embassy within the US

I don't think a nation can be recognized without having a territory; not sure though.

I saw a special on TV where the went to all the little nations like that anarchy town in Denmark and Sea Land in the UK then they made their own online nation and started selling passports and citizenship

There is a difference between claiming to be a nation and being recognized as such.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Start_Your_Own_Country

Exactly and no one ever said we were asking for recognition just that we wanted to do it

Band: Bands have a loose organization. Their power structure is often egalitarian and has informal leadership; the older members of the band generally are looked to for guidance and advice, and decisions are often made on a consensus basis,[2] but there are no written laws and none of the specialised coercive roles (e.g., police) typically seen in more complex societies. Bands' customs are almost always transmitted orally. Formal social institutions are few or non-existent. Religion is generally based on family tradition, individual experience, or counsel from a shaman. All known band societies hunt and gather to obtain their subsistence.

Tribe: A tribe is viewed, historically or developmentally, as a social group existing before the development of, or outside of, states. Many people used the term tribal society to refer to societies organized largely on the basis of social, especially corporate, descent groups (see clan and kinship).
The name "Tribe" is one that anthropologists are trying to move away from and tribes are now being referred to as a segmentary society. A segmentary society is larger than a mobile hunter-gatherer group, but is smaller than a chiefdom. The typical size is more than a hundred but not bigger than a few thousand.
These societies are farmers and their diet mainly consists of cultivate plants and domesticated animals; few are nomad pastoralists. The society consists of individual communities which are then connected to the large society through kinship.[1]
Segmentary societies have Religious elders and calendrical rituals. Hierarchy is not based on age, gender or ability- but is based on small attributes, such as birth order. They do have officials and some even have a capital, but the officials do not have a strong amount of power.[2] A segmentary society was the society that all early farmers had. They typically live in villages or settled agricultural homesteads. Their homes and society are settled.
Settlements are found in a dispersed pattern (permanently occupied houses) or a nucleated pattern (permanent villages). The permanent villages can have either a collection of free-standing houses, or building grouped together in a cluster. An example of free standing houses are the farmers of Danube Valley in Europe, which occupied the space in 4500 BC. The cluster of buildings, also known as agglomerate, can be found at the Pueblos in America’s Southwest.[3]
Pueblo, agglomerate
Some political economic theorists such as Elman Service. hold that tribes represent a stage in sociocultural evolution intermediate between bands and states. Other theorists, such as Morton Fried, argue that tribes developed after states, and must be understood in terms of their relationship to them.
'Tribe' is a contested term due to its roots in colonialism. The word has no shared referent, whether in political form, kinship relations, or shared culture. It conveys a negative connotation of a timeless unchanging past. [4][5][6] To avoid these implications, some have chosen to use the terms 'ethnic group', or nation instead.

Nation Building:At one stage,[when?] nation-building referred to the efforts of newly-independent nations, notably the nations of Africa but also in the Balkans,[2][3] to reshape territories that had been carved out by colonial powers or empires without regard to ethnic, religious, or other boundaries.[4] These reformed states would then become viable and coherent national entities.[5]
Nation-building includes the creation of national paraphernalia such as flags, anthems, national days, national stadiums, national airlines, national languages, and national myths.[6][7] At a deeper level, national identity needed to be deliberately constructed by molding different ethnic groups into a nation, especially since in many newly established states colonial practices of divide and rule had resulted in ethnically heterogeneous populations.[8]
However, many new states were plagued by "tribalism", rivalry between ethnic groups within the nation. This sometimes resulted in their near-disintegration, such as the attempt by Biafra to secede from Nigeria in 1970, or the continuing demand of the Somali people in the Ogaden region of Ethiopia for complete independence. In Asia, the disintegration of India into Pakistan and Bangladesh is another example where ethnic differences, aided by geographic distance, tore apart a post-colonial state. The Rwandan genocide as well as the recurrent problems experienced by the Sudan can also be related to a lack of ethnic, religious, or racial cohesion within the nation. It has often proved difficult to unite states with similar ethnic but different colonial backgrounds. Whereas successful examples like Cameroon do exist, failures like Senegambia Confederation demonstrate the problems of uniting Francophone and Anglophone territories.

Jus sanguinis: (Latin: right of blood) is a principle of nationality law by which citizenship is not determined by place of birth but by having one or both parents who are citizens of the state. Children at birth may automatically be citizens if their parents have state citizenship or national identities of ethnic, cultural or other origins.[1] Citizenship can also apply to children whose parents belong to a diaspora and were not themselves citizens of the state conferring citizenship. This principle contrasts with jus soli (Latin: right of soil).[2]
At the end of the 19th century, the French-German debate on nationality saw the French, such as Ernest Renan, oppose the German conception, exemplified by Johann Fichte, who believed in an "objective nationality", based on blood, race or language. Renan's republican conception, but perhaps also the presence of a German-speaking population in Alsace-Lorraine, explains France's early adoption of jus soli. Many nations have a mixture of jus sanguinis and jus soli, including the United States, Canada, Israel, Greece, Ireland, and recently Germany.
Today France only narrowly applies jus sanguinis, but it is still the most common means of passing on citizenship in many continental European countries. Some countries provide almost the same rights as a citizen to people born in the country, without actually giving them citizenship. An example is Indfødsret in Denmark, which provides that upon reaching 18, non-citizen residents can decide to take a test to gain citizenship.
Some modern European states which arose out dissolved empires, like the Austro-Hungarian or Ottoman, have huge numbers of ethnic populations outside of their new 'national' boundaries, as do most of the former Soviet states. Such long-standing diasporas do not conform to codified 20th-century European rules of citizenship.
In many cases, jus sanguinis rights are mandated by international treaty, with citizenship definitions imposed by the international community. In other cases, minorities are subject to legal and extra-legal persecution and choose to immigrate to their ancestral home country. States offering jus sanguinis rights to ethnic citizens and their descendants include Italy, Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria, and Romania. Each is required by international treaty to extend those rights.

Embassy: A diplomatic mission is a group of people from one state or an international inter-governmental organisation (such as the United Nations or Bitcoin) present in another state to represent the sending state/organisation officially in the receiving state. In practice, a diplomatic mission usually denotes the resident mission, namely the office of a country's diplomatic representatives in the capital city of another country. As well as being a diplomatic mission to the country in which it is situated, it may also be a non-resident permanent mission to one or more other countries. There are thus resident and non-resident embassies

Nation State:The nation state is a state that self-identifies as deriving its political legitimacy from serving as a sovereign entity for a nation as a sovereign territorial unit.[1] The state is a political and geopolitical entity; the nation is a cultural and/or ethnic entity. The term "nation state" implies that the two geographically coincide. Nation state formation took place at different times in different parts of the world, but has become the dominant form of state organization.
The concept and actuality of the nation state can be compared and contrasted with that of the multinational state, city state,[2][3][4] empire, confederation, and other state forms with which it may overlap. The key distinction from the other forms is the identification of a people with a polity.

International Law:International law is the set of rules generally regarded and accepted as binding in relations between states and between nations.[1][2] It serves as a framework for the practice of stable and organized international relations.[3] International law differs from state-based legal systems in that it is primarily applicable to countries rather than to private citizens. National law may become international law when treaties delegate national jurisdiction to supranational tribunals such as the European Court of Human Rights or the International Criminal Court. Treaties such as the Geneva Conventions may require national law to conform.
Much of international law is consent-based governance. This means that a state member of the international community is not obliged to abide by this type of international law, unless it has expressly consented to a particular course of conduct.[4] This is an issue of state sovereignty. However, other aspects of international law are not consent-based but still are obligatory upon state and non-state actors such as customary international law and peremptory norms (jus cogens)

Extraterrestrial real estate: is land on other planets or natural satellites or parts of space that is sold either through organisations or by individuals. Ownership of extraterrestrial real estate is not recognised by any authority.[1] Nevertheless, some private individuals and organisations have claimed ownership of celestial bodies, such as the Moon, and are actively involved in "selling" parts of them through certificates of ownership termed "Lunar deeds",[1] "Martian deeds" or similar. These "deeds" have no legal standing

Space Faring:To be spacefaring is to be capable of and active in the art of space travel or space transport, the operation of spacecraft or spaceplanes. It involves a knowledge of a variety of topics and development of specialised skills including (but not limited to): aeronautics; astronautics; programs to train astronauts; space weather and forecasting; ship-handling and small craft handling; operation of various equipment; spacecraft design and construction; atmospheric takeoff and reentry; orbital mechanics (aka astrodynamics); communications; engines and rockets; execution of evolutions such as towing, micro-gravity construction, and space docking; cargo handling equipment, dangerous cargoes and cargo storage; spacewalking; dealing with emergencies; survival at space and first aid; fire fighting; life support. The degree of knowledge needed within these areas is dependent upon the nature of the work and the type of vessel employed. "Spacefaring" is analogous to seafaring.

Common heritage of mankind (also termed the common heritage of humanity, common heritage of humankind or common heritage principle) is a principle of international law which holds that defined territorial areas and elements of humanity's common heritage (cultural and natural) should be held in trust for future generations and be protected from exploitation by individual nation states or corporations.

Ocean Drones
http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/F2G/0XC0/GPBDHH1Z/F2G0XC0GPBDHH1Z.LARGE.jpg
http://global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/Scitech/robot-boat-navy-660.jpg
http://www.technovelgy.com/graphics/content06/scarecrow-scarebot.jpg
http://robotcentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/sentry.JPG
http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/files/2009/08/wave-glider_diagram_blog.png
http://img.allvoices.com/thumbs/event/609/480/16038112-robot-submarine.jpg
http://oceantrackingnetwork.org/images/otn-diagramweb-550.gif
https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/23860/photo-main.jpg?1298354960

Autonomous Glider
http://spectrum.ieee.org/images/public_html/automaton/usub02.jpg
http://www.angfaqld.org.au/aqp/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/3D-robotic-fish-structure-diagram.jpg

Life Guard Bot
http://elitechoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/seascout-ocean-rescue_robot.jpg

Water Cleaner
http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/watcleaner-ocean-robot.jpg
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17t3zoz88d4z4jpg/k-bigpic.jpg

Drones
http://www.digitaltrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/quadcopter-drone.jpg
http://images.smh.com.au/2013/02/17/4040016/art729-drones-privacy-620x349.jpg
http://jubileehotel.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/food-drone.jpg

Have you heard of Amazon delivery drones that can bring supplies to people in need
http://cdn3.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/9126055/zookal1_large_verge_medium_landscape.jpg
http://www8.pcmag.com/media/images/387997-domicopter.jpg?thumb=y
http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/cmtVM._4v6sHgmX7CdQbBw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/thesideshow/DominosDrone2.jpg
http://www.digitaltrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/domicopter-drone-delivers-pizza.jpg
http://dashburst.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/reddit-cat-drone.jpg
http://www.washingtonpost.com/rw/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2013/12/03/National-Economy/Graphics/w-Amazondrones2-g.jpg

http://assets.inhabitat.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2012/08/Aerofex-Hover-Bike1.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/03/article-2354502-1AA26A37000005DC-835_634x418.jpg
http://www.extravaganzi.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/JetLev-Flyer-JF-250-4-.jpg
http://www.geeky-gadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/personal-jet-pack.jpg
http://blog.softwareinsider.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Martin-JetPack.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/07/7-29-08-martin-jetpack.jpg


MIT Cheetah Bot
http://www.sciencespacerobots.com/2013pics/mit-cheetah-diagram.jpg

I can picture it now:

A fleet of 20 blue-seed ships that meet up in the middle of the ocean once a month

People in Jet packs flying to other boats and islands while the home bodies have drones come to them with supplies

Submarines and underwater housing put under the meeting place so that whenever the blueseed boats come the under water citizens can just put on wet suits and go to the surface to meet some people

etc etc etc

Why can't you guys and gals use Burning Man's organization as a base to build a XBT Nation? They need to keep a place safe and clean for a lot of people in the middle of the desert for a while.

Is there a bitcoin presence at burning man yet?

Interesting take on the floating city idea, I imagine this would have a number of benefits: http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/other-shows/videos/mega-engineering-building-a-floating-city.htm

That desert is still located inside the territorial limits of the USA. So I'd veto this move.  ;D

I hadn't seen that video yet only this picture
https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.scifiideas.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Mega-Engineering-Floating-City-2.jpg&fnr

How will that "floating city" handle big waves though? And do we even got chains strong enough to anchor that thing and survive fighting against the winds hitting such a huge surface area? What if the wind is asymmetrical, causing it to try to turn, distributing the strain over the anchors unevenly?

Good points. A Really Big Ship is more sturdy against the weather but less flexible. So make the modules big enough to handle most weather solo, which should make them able to handle it when pieced together too?

I don't think they said they were going to be anchoring it And I don't think waves and wind will have much of an effect on something that is larger than all the cruise ships in the world combined... Watch the video

There is better, or at least simpler option. One that does not require anyone to move. Look at how Cosa Nostra and Yakuza function. They live in same country as everyone else, but they are effectively their own people and their own nation, with their own economy and services.

I had a vision of starting up crypto villages..small micro economic centers that would be fully sustainable, co friendly and be each mining its own coin so anything that the village needs that it cannot produce it can buy with Bitcoin or whatever other Crypto Con. This way everyone living their would live a poverty free and self sustainable lifestyle yet be part of a thriving community. Humans have the capacity to thrive but not with these types of economic systems we have in place today that gear towards only the 5% have any form of decent life. :)

You know about that giant pile of plastic trash floating in Pacific Ocean? Maybe a ship like this can park there. They would not need to anchor, since they would just float in circle just like all that trash, and they can "mine" the trash as resource. Maybe melt it, and use it as source for 3D printing.

Not practical. A lot of the Cosa Nostra members are currently in various Italian prisons. I don't want any Bitcoiner to go to jail for breaking the financial regulations.

Cosa Nostra does not use Bitcoin, Bitmessage, PGP, and other cryptography tools. They are old style underground economy and society that did not have the tools we have now, but they can be a foundation of rules and mistakes to learn from and build on top of. Also, Cosa Nostra needs to have image of powerful and violent to do what they do. They are not liked by authorities, and can be easily demonized in media, because they can be violent and sometimes kill people. If people just withdraw into background, not bothering anyone, the worst they can be accused of is not sharing. I want to share idea later, but am still working out details.

That thing looks like it would be affected more by the wind than by currents; it got way more surface area above than bellow water.



I think latching all the pieces together wouldn't work well, would cause too much stress. It would work better as a flotilla with flexible paths between them. Sorta like Columbia from the Bioshock Infinite game, but with a bit less up and down bobbing between the "islands".


Not having each unit have it's own propulsion seems like a bad idea; having to evacuate a whole cityblock in the middle of the ocean because it was about to crash doesn't sound all that feasible.

Something like an array of Voith Schneider propellers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voith_Schneider_propeller) under each unit might perhaps be the best idea. Obviously, the islands would have to coordinate their movement with each other, sorta like how vehicles like SPMTs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww7e-4C8hsg) do.


If i'm not mistaken, propellers like that, might even be able to produce vertical thrust; which could be used to reduce rolling and delay the sinking during an emergency.

An arrangement like that, if it allows for some flexibility between the hexagons, could grow much larger than any rigid ship and still be able to handle very long waves out on the ocean.  It is effectively an articulated structure, which puts it light years ahead of, say, Freedom Ship in terms of practicality and ability to exist.  And leaving space between the hexes allows boats to get through, so rowboats and little sailboats could be used effectively like bikes.  (and of course motorboats would be the SUVs of the system... ).  So you'd want flexible standoffs between hexes. If you put them above the water, they'd also probably serve as bridges as well for foot, bicycle, and scooter traffic, and would have to be high enough that reasonable-size sailboats could get under them.

One thing I notice about the float city above is that it has a lot of differential loading.  Some of those hexes will need to be awfully deep, and ballasted at the lower ends, in order to support the large buildings on top of them, while those that just support a cottage and a garden can be effectively flat bottomed and quite shallow. The very deep hexes can work a lot like "sea spars" in that they can resist large waves without being capsized or necessarily having large vertical movements.  They'd be a hell of a lot harder for a violent wave to flip over or push around, for example.  So your best arrangement for a city like that, in order to withstand hurricanes etc, would be to have the "deep" hexes (and multi-hex platforms) with the big buildings on the outer edge of the city, protecting the interior, while the regular 'flat' hexes that support just a cottage and a garden should be on the interior -- effectively the reverse of the way it's pictured above.  This would also be more convenient for the heavy industries, fish packers, shipping centers, malls, and factories etc that the larger buildings likely contain, because it would give them access to the edge of the raft where larger ships for ocean traffic, and medium-size boats that would serve as trucks to take loads to other businesses around the edges of the raft, could be loaded and unloaded. 

This has all been covered by the Seasteading group.

You cannot build anything within 200 miles of any nation, everything else is in deep sea which cannot anchor.

Any structure has to deal with 100 meter waves.

BlueSeed is a test of the seasteading idea of many people living in an ocean vessel but it will still be registered to a nation, most likely the bahamas.

The Seasteading Institute has done several studies, the last one is one choosing a nation to support a trial run in their waters, that study will be out soon.

But there is another option that is already in the works.

Alderney
http://www.coindesk.com/british-island-physical-bitcoins-uk-royal-mint/

A british island nation that has control over minting their own currency is seriously considering using Bitcoin as their official currency.

They would actually mint a physical currency backed by Bitcoin like how the US dollar used to be backed by gold. You will be able to take your currency to the mint and exchange it for Bitcoin if you wish.

Whatever it is, I don't want the bitcoin nation to exist inside another sovereign country. We should seriously consider the proposal to build an artificial island (a floating one, to be precise).

http://oceania.org/images/old.3.jpg

sorta like this at oceania.org ??

Building artificial floating islands can be a risky business. What we'll do if something like this happens:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/01/09/sports/09surf.1.600.jpg

Looks like photoshop, though I know that it is not...

http://cdn.business.transworld.net/files/2008/06/03/ger900-1.jpg

I don't think basing our nation on the structure of a gang is a good idea The F.O.L.K.S. Nation exists within America and I'd rather not be lumped in with them and the other nations

I think solar power, hand crank and acid powered mining machines are the future

I am pretty sure you can use salt water for electricity even... Salt in water = Electrolytes

The boats would have to be equipped with delivery drones to bring things to shore or even multiple countries because I am sure there would be an overflow of unnecessary items at some point

Strictly speaking, they don't have their own economy which is at least able to support itself. They parasitize on the economy they happen to live in (through not paying taxes, engaging in forbidden activities, etc). I don't think this is a characteristic that most bicoiners would love to share...

The propellers would be a very expensive addition It could help but I do not think we would be building a city as large as the one in the video and it would probably be easier to manage it with a fleet of tug boats Not saying the propellers are a bad idea just maybe too expensive like possibly double the cost of the platform itself

And if the islands were to be given space they would have to bob up and down When they are secured together to create 1-10 miles of land mass they can take a little more without being effected I.E. Inertia

Ah so like gaps but like steel beam bridges with shock absorption that are actually just joining pieces for the hexagons they would have to go all the way to the middle of the hexagon and it would probably be best to weld all the beams together inside the hexagons so that they create a skeletal structure for the whole thing

The same thing aircraft carriers do Take that shit like a beast

We could even probably use a retired ship as the middle of the entire thing

Couldn't a floating island include some sort of wave-breaking outer shell for big waves? Would it even be needed given the size of such a thing? Not talking tiny little sailboats here after all.

Exactly If anyone has a structure we would want to emulate I'd say the Hebrews and Freemasons are the best to follow

Instead of being bound to each other because of the crimes we potentially commit together we will be bound by blood over time Which is legal and much longer lasting

I'm thinking #2 but wave breaking tech could be cheap and useful

And remember we can have people above and under the water as well as little stationary towns at the bottom of the ocean

a Nuclear aircraft carrier might be a good initial base to expand from.

of course, a way to flag it, or protect it is the critical question.
but all questions have answers, just some are super complicated.


Flagged by a any Nation initially, then.........
anybody read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress?"
the Moon began as an Earth colony,  then found out how to protect itself,

some things just take a long time to evolve,
the nay sayers on this subject, would have been the same nay sayers decades ago telling us that there can be no such thing as a FREE CURRENCY internationally used not controlled by any Government................

Before torturing yourself with such questions, better ask yourself where you are going to get that nuclear aircraft carrier and who is going to sell it to you in the first place...

Most pirate bands have no guns and many that do have guns don't have many bullets or just have 1 gun So defense from pirates is not as big an issue any more unless you plan on going from port to port Because then you can't have guns on your ship But since we don't plan on docking anywhere we can have a small arsenal to defend from pirates And slowly develop a cheap long range defense like catapults or something but we don't want to start training snipers or anything just in case they get bored and turn their scope on the ship for a half hour while everyone tries to disarm them Having the rifles is not a bad idea but specializing someone for nothing but that is not a good idea

I was thinking more protection from other GOVERNMENTS.

UN or USA being the most dangerous to any Libertarian style community.

and wasn't thinking just "guns" as a method of protection, negotiations treaties various weapons, support from the "right country", laws ETC.

Not true. Cosa Nostra grey market economy is second biggest economy in Italy. True, they avoid taxes, but much of what they sell is not strictly illegal (they do make counterfeit things), and they actually earn a lot of money to support themselves without parasiting on government. They themselves are the economy they live in, which is strong and developed enough that if Italy economy and government collapsed, southern Italy would still be fine. Their main service is private security and arbitration/negotiation, so they provide many functions that normally government provides. If bitcoin people wish to form such a nation, they would not need to do illegal things like gangs do, such as killing, selling drugs, and causing violence. But that you wish to form a nation tells me that there is something you wish to do that is not allowed (is illegal) to do where you live. That is why I suggested we study the organizations that already do things that are illegal to do where they live, but they still thrive while doing it.
(People Nation gang is bad example, because they are small, not well established, and just fight each other and police, while Cosa Nostra is very well established and respected, even by law enforcement).

Well of course we would start making treaties I didn't realize that that is what you meant I was thinking more about pirates

We would start by offering foreign aid and purchasing land to open embassies in various countries Then diplomatic relations would just kinda fall in place I posted about this a few posts back Hold on

Cosa Nostra gets more than 50% of their revenue from extortion. Most of the remaining comes from smuggling illegal immigrants, illegally dumping rubbish, and female trafficking.

Here it is

Also we could come in after natural disasters and offer homes to anyone that would like to come aboard Ex: Katrina and other Hurricanes, Tsunamis etc

It would make news the first few times then it would just be the way the world worked after a short time

everyone  ;)  some people look at anarchy as the lack of nations, i prefer to look at it as having 7billion of them.

If the bitcoin nation became a nation of research, development, discovery, recovery, reconstruction and charity then no one would attack it and everyone would protect it

How many people are really really wanting to do this?

Hell, I've been giggling since the idea was brought up.

"Let's start our own country" is completely impossible for anyone who isn't, first, willing to point heavy weapons at someone else's face and pull the triggers, and second, surrounded by compatriots also willing to do so.

Since we've seen no evidence of hardcore sociopaths here, and the supply of people whose entire families have been murdered etc by the people they'd have to kill (or otherwise 'radicalized' revolutionaries) seems near zero, it's pretty clear that nobody here is going to start a country.

If bitcoin goes to one million? I'd dump a few into it, at least. Less than that and it's not really realistic.

You're wrong

Look up the recently created internet nation of Lovely You can even become a citizen

The only thing not being realistic is you

If they were 1 million each it would only take like 2000 bitcoins to do this Plus create a standing army

That's not a lot of bitcoins at all And if we are going to do this we will need at least 1000 people And I expect that they will need more than 2 bitcoins each realistically and that would be easy to achieve realistically even if bitcoins were $5000 each Because again needing like 1000+ people means we would have a lot of people putting stuff in together

If bitcoin is going to move the world it has to be worth enough to, well, move the world. Thousands/coin is not going to do that. Not even tens of thousands. It's millions or bust for world change. I'd be fine with just making a tidy profit too of course, but the more the better.

Don't confuse bitcoin and crypto Their is a whole crypto world to work with Bitcoin is not alone

I just posted this in the DOGE coin thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361813.msg4013046#msg4013046) we should start talking about this in the DOGE thread If DOGE and BTC worked together they could get a lot more done than they could alone

Price is not wealth, and wealth is not money. If you were able to buy (or sell) one Satoshi at an exchange rate of one million dollars per bitcoin, this wouldn't automatically imply that you could actually buy something worth a billion dollars with a thousand bitcoins...

Your not even arguing the point any more Are you trying to prove that bitcoins can't be spent everywhere in the world yet? Great we all know that

Are you trying to prove that bubbles exist? Awesome

I'm talking about creating a nation of bitcoiners

Oh, excuse me! I thought you were going to spend just 2000 bitcoins for that plus create a standing army... On a serious note though, do you really think that if bitcoin exchange rate somehow hit a million dollars per BTC, you would actually be able to buy anything valuable with 2,000 of them?

If you sell 1 Satoshi to your friend for 1 million dollars per BTC, will it change anything?

The original point you made was that bitcoin would have to be worth 1,000,000 each for this to happen

I basically replied "no it will be able to happen far before that"

I feel like the discussion just spiraled out of control from there

Which part of my post made you think so? In fact, I was saying that if bitcoins were worth 1,000,000 dollars each as extrapolated from the price paid for one Satoshi, this wouldn't imply that all bitcoins would actually have such purchasing power...

I'm not denying that the purchasing power would be great at that point I am just saying that this project does not need that to happen before the project itself can happen

Yeah, if we are talking about a large ship that constantly sails the world, it might be very possible. If you have a physical country then you will have to do things such as make laws, raise taxes, build an army and provide social welfare programs. I think a crypto-ship would be kinda interesting though.


~ 2 cents ~

So if we form our own nation who will be president and prime minister, what will we do to scammers or criminals.

will we have clean water and shelter with appropriate clothing? What will we do when other countries try to take our resources.

Will the bitcoin nation have a military and spies to see what other countries are doing?

Should we enter the UN or EU?
O.O

I think it would be something closer to the MS The World cruise ship. The entire population of the ship owns the ship and pays for it's maintenance. If you want to sell your cabin, you can do so. You can also come and go as you please as the ship comes into different ports. The catch is, no matter how much time you spend on the ship, you must pay for it's upkeep every year.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/53/The_world_at_port_in_Mackay_2006a.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_The_World

I think leaders would be picked based on where in the boat you are so that each region has it's own leaders Then a captain that gets to make major decisions and direction changes

China is full of smog and just took their first trip to the moon I think they might try to colonize soon

Chinese technology is not as much advanced as the American and Russian ones. God knows whether their lunar mission will be successful or not.

It was already successful It's called like the Jade something if you want to look it up

Yes. They have landed the unmanned vehicle on the lunar surface. But are they capable of successfully conducting a manned lunar mission?

I don't think it's about ability I think it is about need Look at their smog And China has never really had a problem copying blueprints and reproducing them So I think they can do something we did in the 60s

Japan has the best technology by far in this whole wide world. This country is so technologically advanced..

Goin to space has nothing to do with technology it has already been done like 60 years ago, japan produces the most gadgets

they are so innovative and they also created the playstation

They created the Play Station?!?!??! Oh wow We must give credit to the people that took the computer and limited it's ability while enhancing its performance and not give credit to the person that invented the computer itself

I wonder how much more difficult it would be to just stick astronauts in a round-trip capsule/module with life support and an airlock, but no onboard flight controls (everything controlled from earth, with radio transmissions from the crew if anything comes up).

Hmm... Japanese technology is definitely one of the best. But that doesn't mean that the Japanese space technology is as good as the Russian and American ones. And another thing to remember is that Japan doesn't give much importance to its space programs and the public funding is minimal. 

I'm pretty sure they said a monkey did this one So I am sure they can train humans

Have you heard of the American space monkeys? One of their names was Ham and they were monkeys that went to space and came back And they manned the controls themselves I am pretty sure that is what China did also Not positive but why wouldn't they?

heres something to discuss, if we could put a man on the moon 60 years ago why havent we done it again?

its obvious we can go to space again, instead we send little dinky robots to mars etc to take some photos and back.

Im assuming in the future more people will go to space or maybe im wrong?

Bitcoin is made for earth used only by earthlings!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.seasteading.org

http://www.seasteading.org

http://www.seasteading.org


Everything has already been addressed.

We've had more than one moon mission if I am not mistaken And at least 3 different nations have individually gone to the moon So we did it at least 3 times even if America only did it once

There was a space-war between the US and the USSR going on during the 60s. Soviets managed to put someone in space first, and the Americans landed the first human in the lunar surface. US won the 2nd war. The point was proven and there was no need to do the same thing again and again.

Yes but your missing the whole point, it doesnt matter who goes to space first. it matters what we find in space.

It doesnt matter if russia was first, if usa was second i wouldnt even care if north korea was first,

The whole point is not to compete between nations but to work together jointly to find out whats in space.

We are a tiny little object compared to the whole space, space is CRAAAZY BIG.  there must be other life out there.

I've thought about this a lot.  I don't think we're alone in the universe.  But I don't believe in faster-than-light drives, so in practical terms we might as well be.  And I'd give about even odds on whether we're alone in this galaxy.

Space is crazy big.  It'll take so much time to get anywhere even a tenth of the way across this galaxy that the people who arrive won't even be the same species as the people who start out.  You wanna see the aliens we'll be dealing with in the future? Look in a mirror -- because in all their millions of species, they'll be our descendants.

Actually, the space potentially available to us is constantly shrinking. It may sound as paradoxical at first glance, but it is not. The whole Universe is expanding and this expansion is not limited by the speed of light and may well exceed it (since it is expansion of space itself), whereas we still can't travel faster that light...

Oh shit not this again. Please, PLEASE take the sci-fi pretend-science junk somewhere else.

I do not know where you got your source, and you may be right, but "extortion" costs 10% to 15% of profit, and provides services that are not just protection from theft, vandalism, and other crime. That is actually less than what many people in rest of world pay for police and military, and services like arbitration and business contract dispute.

However, such organizations have much negative stories and propaganda created about them by monopolies that wish to retain all force (governments), as well as media creating stories for entertainment, so maybe I should not talk about them.

Just want to say that this is actually not true. Tokyo is very technologically advanced, and rest of world typically sees or thinks of Tokyo when they think of Japan, but Tokyo does not represent Japan. Much of Japan is actually less technological than America and Europe, and people live plain and simple lives. Most houses have no air conditioning or heating, with walls only a few centimeters thick, that have cold air blowing through cracks, and need insulation tape around windows. People use small electric heaters to heat rooms, but otherwise have to wear warm clothing indoors. Waking up in morning to go to bathroom in winter is unpleasant experience, which is why those famous electronic toilets with heated seats are so popular. Many people still do not own computers or smart phones, and just use regular phones to send e-mails. In many areas of what you call country, there may be one or five computers in a school library, and that is only computers that kids have access to in whole town. So Japan being a country of giant robots, and 3D rendered anime girls, and crazy electronic toys, is mostly illusion for rest of world. Yes, it exists, but is as remote to many Japanese as it is to many Americans and Europeans.

You misunderstood me. I was saying that 50%+ of all mafia revenues come from extortion and other illegal activities. I didn't said that every business firm pays 50% of their profits as extortion money.

I am also sorry, I did not say you were wrong that 50% of their revenues come from extortion. Just that I do not know your sources. I believe much of their revenue also comes from grey market business, such as manufacturing things in workshops. I was only pointing out that this extortion is not large part of profit for businesses that they extort, and even if such service is technically considered illegal by law, it still provides services we have to pay for (and are forced to pay for), but at maybe cheaper rate.

New thread was made about a similar topic
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=621322.0

You mean Bitcoin World, i wonder if other planets with advanced lifes sustain their economics like Bitcoin will do soon or later in Earth...

I think that other life is probably more like plants, since MOST life on Earth is plant life or similar life. Not many things have stomachs, just the big things.

And ALL life on Earth uses electro-chemicals (drugs) whether it be humans with Adrenaline and Dopamine, or Plants with THC and Theobromine, or ants with pheromones, or Toads with 5-HO-DMT, etc. And electro-chemicals/pheramones don't really lie.

So I personally assume that all life outside of Earth is more plant like, and drug based.

Would anyone here want to be on a podcast (via Google hangouts) next week and talk about some of the stuff in this thread?

Israeli Skytran (150-200 MPH air car track)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyTran
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/06/24/california-based-skytran-to-build-futuristic-levitating-public-transit-system-in-israel/

Maybe the technology can be applied to something a little less horrible in the future.

Has anyone made an Altcoin to finance a political campaign ever? Like "Suppot X Candidate by mining and donating X coin"

And someone should make a Joe Rogan coin, he would probably think it was awesome and it would get coverage on not only this thread, but it would probably get pretty good traction in the thread on JoeRogan.net and he would probably talk about it on his podcast at some point.