Bitcoin Forum

Always bet on ice? As in, ice will win, as in, your icebreaker, such as in your avatar will be either completely trapped, or crushed, sunk and frozen in the ice? Cause if you're betting on ice and you're in an icebreaker, well...

Icebreaker advising to bet on ice?
Freud would say he subconsciously discloses his own falseness...
We all would agree with such a diagnosis, wouldn't we?

I think you just needed to email them and ask. I don't know if there was a formal offer.

I am also an idiot who did not move my December order.

Cointerra knew they would never ship in Dec.  They lied to get our money!   >:(

Maybe these nice friendly sharks can help?

What I'm more curious about is if a court can force them to disclose their contract with the fab. If the contract says the chips wouldn't be produced until after December it's game over for them.

If we are not gonna get every single BTC that we paid back, we are __all__ gonna use __fractions__ of the revenues to pay for first class lawyers to rip them off.

Worst case scenario? We will own the IP of the chip and it will be the first open source RTL (maybe we could just organise group buys directly to the FAB, where every detail is public and we get a % to recover our losses).

If a company screws it's customers and then closes shop, customers can go against what the company owns. The company can't give what he owns away to it's shareholders, because the shareholders are part of the company and are part of the people that have to pay for the company screwing customers.

I mean, you can't stole the candies and then says that you can't get the candies back because i you to give them to the people who sent you to stole candies.

For a limited time only I will share the secrets of my pickaxe revenue boosting system.  We all know that mining gold is getting harder and a pickaxe in February is probably only worth $1 per gigarock.  Honestly it is probably worth less than that but gold miners have gold fever and you can find enough people willing to pay $1 per gigarock in February.  Still is it your fault that you can't delivery until February and thus are limited to only $1 per GH/s (probably 1000% gross markup)?  Now some honest suckers might say "sorry you are going to have to live with "only" $10M in gross revenue for a couple months work".  You know what I say .... that is stupid honest sucker talk.  Don't listen to it for a second.  I am going to show you how you can double the $10M into $20M without delivering more or earlier.  Just free bonus money.

See the first thing you do is promise to deliver the pickaxes in December and mark them up from $1 per gigarock to a much more profitable $3 per gigarock.  Now you might be confused because you already know your pickaxes won't be ready until February so how can you promise December delivery?  It is what we in the creative pickaxing business call "telling your customers what they want to hear to get the moneyz", I have heard that honest suckers might call it lying, or fraud but I wouldn't know. Now this plan isn't for everyone, if you are looking for an honest profit where both you and your customers benefit then you should probably stop reading because this plan isn't for you.  Also if you are in that category want to buy some cheap pickaxes? 

Ok are all the honest suckers gone now?  Good now lets get down to business.  So instead of selling pickaxes in February for $1 per gigarock the revenue boosting secret is to pretend you will have them in Dec and offer them for $3 per gigarock.  We will "limit" this to half a million pickaxes.  We want to make it seem limited.  Nobody want to pay a premium and be at the end of the line.  Now if you get lucky some large group like CryptPicking ("always bet on Peta") will do a lot of the work for you and buy about half of those early pickaxes.  Now just sell the other half retail.  Now some of those customers might be cautious so if sales are slow then give away some of the pickaxes for free as "protection".  Hang on trust me it will be worth it, these "free" pickaxes aren't going to make us a fortune at the expense of the customers who trust us.   See if the customers don't trust us they won't buy regardless but if they trust us but are worried about difficulty then the free pickaxes will seal the deal. So reserve 800K pickaxes for the PPP (Pickaxe Protection Plan).

Now you should know that after all this plays out as you know it will, your rep is ruined, so lets double down.   Your customers might not know you can't deliver on time but you do so don't hold anything back. You might as well offer "Jan" pickaxes you can't deliver either!  I mean if you are going to defraud one batch of customers why not defraud two for twice the profit and twice the fun?  So sell off the rest of your February pickaxes as "January" pickaxes and offer a deal of only $8 per gigarock (for a $1 per gigarock pickaxe).  See it is a "deal" it isn't as horribly bad as the first batch?   

Now stop a second and just think about the beauty of it.  We only have one box of February pickaxes.  That is it, yet with some creative pickaxing we have now sold two batches at different price points.   Some customers probably agonized over which was the better deal and they are all coming out of the same box!  ROFL! I mean all we have are February pickaxes, some just have an Dec sticker and some have a Jan sticker.  :)   See who says you can have fun making millions?

So lets punch this into the ole pickaxe calculator. The honest promise and delivery in February at a reasonable price nets us $10 million in revenue, but with some creative pickaxing we can still ship the same number of pickaxes at the same time but DOUBLE OUR REVENUE! Don't believe me?  Here is the creative math.  Honest (sucker) February delivery: 3.3 million pickaxes @ $1 per gigarock = ~$10M.  Creative Pickaxe Super Sales System:  0.5 million (promised for Dec) * $3 + 0.8 million * $0 (protection plan promised when we feel like it) + 2 million * $8 ("cheaper" batch 2 promised for Jan) = ~$20 million.

Both methods sell out our 3.3 million pickaxes.
Both methods don't ship until February (or maybe a few days prior).
The creative one makes twice as much money.

Now do you see the magic of creative pickaxing?   Well the bad news is if you want to get technical there is no such thing as something for nothing; this is just a wealth transfer from your customers to you under false pretenses (lawyers might call that fraud).  They never had a chance at getting units before February so $10M extra for "early" delivery is just a $10M reduction in net profit.  With mining margins as tight as they are that will be enough to push them into the red.  See they are paying $20M for pickaxes which really are only worth $10M because ... and this is the funny part ... they actually believed you when you said Dec and Jan delivery.   What a bunch of suckers. 

Of course the only downside is you have to deal with "whiners" who get mad when their Dec & Jan pickaxes doesn't arrive until February. You can't really blame them I mean the high priced pickaxes only make economical sense for the easier Dec rocks.  $3 axe in Dec = profit.  $1 axe in Janaury = profit.  $3 axe in February = profit (well profit for us and massive losses for them).  That is why the Pickaxes were only worth $1 per gigarock in February, but if we had sold them as February pickaxes we would have only made $1 per gigarock and that just isn't fair.  It isn't fair other companies were faster and thus were able to charge more.  I mean $10M with 1000% gross markup how many yachts can you buy with that.  The funniest part is many of your victims did the math and made all the right calculations.  They never would have paid $3 per gigarock for a February pickaxes because they KNEW it would be a loss.   Still with the ole switcheroo you can trick them to.  They have now absolutely no hope of even breaking even.  If you start to feel bad about all the loses your customers are taking and the fact that it was completely avoidable by being honest (and accepting a fair price for a fair product), just buy another sports car, or snort some more premium blow off an expensive hooker. Nobody said creative pickaxing was going to be easy, but a "bonus" $10M should help your guilty conscience.

Hmmm... I am getting déjà vu.  Is this the hashfast thread?

i dont think anyone is going to read all of that

No, it's just the icebreaker betting on ice. HF and CT are two companies that are run in two completely different ways.

If you disagree with me, i can exchange my HF preordered units (that should arrive before the end of the year) with CT units ordered around the same time of mine (end of August) and with a similar $ value at the time. Everyone is welcome. No discrimination for trollers. MPP included. Bulk discounts.

Hey Icehole...

i think youve really lost it now... not making any sense...   talking like a mad man!

cointerra has disclosed the dates the fab has given them (fabout, bumpout etc)... in december!  they said so in black and white.  the dates theyve provided came from the fab and not from their imagination.  no other asic company has ever provided that level of detail of dates from the fab before.

and youre talking like youre a customer, which as far as we are aware, you arent.  youre a hashfast shill and a troll on every other forum with the brightest orange ignore button this forum has ever seen.

i dont know what youre talking about cointerra screwing their customers... theyre the opposite of that.  theyre much closer to knc, in that they're likely to deliver what they promised, and they give every impression it will be within the contracted dates.  And if theyre later than originally expected, theyre only weeks not months late (making the other guys look positively slow by comparison)   And heck, theyve got their box, their boards, their cooling system.. everything has been shown and looks ready to go.  theyve stockpiled their parts.  i havnt seen anyone else with this level of preparedness.

were also aware that a number of december customers switched their orders to january to get the benefit of better pricing (more than 2x the hash power).  im sure that if anyone is still a december customer and wants to be a january batch instead, they should contact cointerra and see if its still possible (im a jan batch customer)

these guys are not the slightest bit at risk of default compared to others closer to you.  i think you mistakenly posted in the wrong forum.

move along, nothing to see here!

Cointerra knew all along they could not deliver in Dec.

They lied to get our money.   >:(

We need to see their contract with the fab to get proof for the lawsuit.

We paid a huge premium for Dec delivery, but that premium will be worthless by the time they ship in late Feb.

Cointerra is looking more like Butterfly Labs 2.0 every day.

We don't want to see their extra-slick box of fancy fans; that's completely irrelevant.  Without the chip it's worth nothing!

We simply want our December orders to ship in December, as per our agreement.  When HashFast ships their 500GH miners, difficulty will go to the moon.

How much longer is Cointerra going to hold up our mining hardware for "testing" purposes?

there is zero chance you're a cointerra customer.  you're just a troll.

and I've seen their dates..  I've toured their office.. I've even visited their board contractor... and I'm expecting my boxes in january!

To bad that you don't have a cointerra preorder that you can exchange with my hashfast one.
The tiny difference you miss is the 2 months delays vs few weeks that cointerra will have. CT was priced at 1/5th of the HF pricing point, and the only reason HF was able to have that pricing is their __promise__ of delivery by the end of October.

Guess what? They didn't even have a mockup (rendering) of the board at the end of October.

CT has prototypes of the board that are being tested, cases that are being perfected, and is getting everything in place to ship to it's customers as soon as they can.

HF? HF has been testing the chips for like 2 weeks, they are taking their time, they don't care about their customers losing 500$ per BJ a day.

EOT;

I won't feed you anymore and i won't lose any more time answering to your stupid posts, you are ridiculous and everyone with a minimum of intelligence reading this thread can understand why your replies (to this post) will be useless.

Wrong again aerobatic.

I have a lot of BTC invested in Cognitive, which is a huge Cointerra customer.  Ditto LTC and CipherMine.

Why not simply ask me first, before being presumptuous and making an ass of yourself?   ::)

When you placed your Cointerra order, was it for Dec or Jan delivery?

^^^See how I *ASKED* you for information, instead of ignorantly presuming my negative bias is correct?   ;D

If your Jan order is coming in Jan, great.

If your Dec order is coming in "Jan" you should be concerned that Cointerra was lying about the possibility of Dec delivery.

Anyway, my concern is with the Dec orders I funded via Cog and Cipher.

Cognitive and Cipher are now going to start mining in Jan, assuming everything else goes perfectly.

Difficulty in Jan will be much higher than Dec, given the wafers of 500GH+ chips HashFast is about to bring online.

At no time do i think cointerra has lied about their dates.  i think before tapeout they were op-timistic, but after tape-out, they have adjusted their dates and no one has been over promised.  tape-out being the major milestone where the rest of the schedule becomes more predictable.

at no time did cointerra sell systems for december that they didn't think they would be able to deliver in december.  if it slips a few weeks (into jan) it won't be because of lying.   And if they are a few weeks late, its still within their (very narrow, i.e. 30 day) contracted delivery window.  more accountable and predictable than the other guys' 60 day window.

Now, cointerra's prices for december were the lowest around.. and their january prices are less than half that and are still the lowest around ($3/gh).  I feel like i will get my systems within weeks of the expected date.  time will tell.

in answer to your question, i have a small order in the december batch and a larger order in the jan batch.  and I'm prepared to move my few december orders into the jan batch if that ever becomes a necessary option (and i know they will take care of the price delta accordingly, which is actually very sensible of them).  they've done this for other customers already.

How low can you go, if you´re not able to use your own mind/words, in stead of copy & pasting other users contributions!

Cointerra took millions of dollars from us, claiming they would deliver in "mid December."  But there is no way that's going to happen until mid-Jan at the very earliest.

That's called over-promising and under-delivering.  You cannot spin that obvious fact fast enough to make it go away.

We need to see the contract with the foundry to determine if Cointerra intentionally lied about Dec shipping.

You good faith is touching, but Cointerra's month (plus?) delay is costing their customers thousands of precious Bitcoins.

If they lied about Dec shipments, that is fraud and we need to start looking at class action lawsuits as the obvious remedy.

WTF is this talk about a "contracted delivery window?"  Everyone knows that if an ASIC fails to ship at the earliest possible date, it's late!

everything you say on this forum is the exact opposite of everything you say in the hashfast forum.  you have the memory of a goldfish!

Thanks buddy.  You need a sarcasm detector like a fish needs a bicycle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Jez mate, you're chasing your tail. It's fruitless, the dark yellow is well earned for a reason...

yea, i think you're right

Yes, it is fruitless to accuse HashFast of lying unless you also apply that "logic" to Cointerra as well.

Thanks for taking my point.  A little slow, but I know you EECS guys aren't big on verbal comprehension.   ;)

just to clarify, which company do you support? hashfast, bfl, knc, cointerra? or none.

I support logical consistency.

If HashFast's chip is "late" because it didn't ship at the earliest possible moment, so is Cointerra's.

If HashFast 'must have known' they couldn't deliver at the earliest possible moment, so did Cointerra.

If HashFast 'should be sued' for not delivering at the earliest possible moment, so should Cointerra.

If HashFast 'is the devil and literally Hitler' for not providing refunds or guaranteed ROI in BTC, so is Cointerra.

ok, well from my point of view both hashfast and cointerra are horrible failures....

Thank you for being logically consistent and fair.

I disagree with your conclusion, but appreciate your even-handed approach.

The attitude of 'HashFast can do no right despite their chip working great, and Cointerra can do no wrong despite having no chip' got old, so I'm putting a stop to it.

Always bet on Gödel...

youre ignoring the price in that equation.

hf charged $14/gh for october delivery, and now might deliver in december/january.

ct charged $7/gh for december and $3/gh for january, and let people switch between the two batches at whim, thus most will get their january order, in january, at january prices.  no one has reason to be upset at that because the delivery date has been priced in.

HashFast is late because they promised October and failed.


They didn't ship in October. They didn't ship in November. December is half over and they have yet to ship.

HashFast promised (and still promises) delivery by Dec 31.

If HashFast's chip is "late" because it didn't ship at the earliest possible moment, so is Cointerra's.

Cointerra promised mid December and failed.

We need to sue Cointerra, because they probably knew Dec was impossible and just wanted to make extra money by lying.

you're certifiably insane

Or I'm making a point.  But please, continue to make an ass of yourself by presuming the worst instead of asking for clarification.  You're good at that.

I am a cointerra customer and I feel no need to be angry yet.  We are not hashfast victims, and everything is looking good.. I would much rather wait until january and pay half the price if i have to.  That is very considerate of them :)

Notice how you deleted the quote that proves you wrong? I'll add it again. It's only 6 words. I know a couple of them have a lot of letters, but try reading it again. Here it is:

No, you're not making a point, Aerobatic was right. You are certifiably insane!

 

You would have much better success arguing with a wall ;)

Aerobatic Firstly I should say that I respect your posts as they have generally been neutral and not biased for, or against, any of the ASIC suppliers / wannabe suppliers. I also think HF could be more open as to what has caused their delays. However to be fair, I am not sure if your pricing comparison below is correct as if the full MPP for HF is triggered (which i am sure is highly likely by now), then surely the correct price comparison for HF should be $2.80/GH for partial delivery in dec (assuming that deadline is met) and the rest of which depends on when the MPP is finally delivered? So unless my calculation is wrong, is their late delivery not also priced in?

[/quote]

youre ignoring the price in that equation.

hf charged $14/gh for october delivery, and now might deliver in december/january.

ct charged $7/gh for december and $3/gh for january, and let people switch between the two batches at whim, thus most will get their january order, in january, at january prices.  no one has reason to be upset at that because the delivery date has been priced in.
[/quote]

Not that this is an excuse for HF's poor communications or to stickup for IceDrill but he does have a point (albeit an overly exaggerated one) that the same principles should be applied to all the ASIC suppliers or supplier wannabes

Yup, and when CoinTerra is 2 months late, then they'll get the same treatment.

its certainly harder to calculate the cost and value of the hashfast equipment with the MPP.

its a complicated offer to evaluate isn't it?

i mean, after a long period of time you get some of the pieces to make the rest of your miners, but not all the pieces, so no doubt they will happily sell you the systems with mounting screws, cooling systems, power supplies etc... for.. I'm guessing $500-1000 each, and you'll need 2 or more than them.. right?... on top of whatever free mpp gear they're going to give you.

the main thing is the delay.  you won't get it til feb or march or later. right?   by then, its worth a lot less to anyone.

you can't equate the cost, up front of buying mining gear if you get some in dec, and the rest in march.  that doesn't average out at a $/gh number since they are separated by such a large time gap that the mining economics are very different in the two batch delivery timeframes.

sure, it brings down your cost of buying mining gear, but the mop gear arrives so late that it barely is helpful in making you break-even.

and instead of delivering to you something on time that will earn the btc you expected at a power cost that you expected, you will instead have to front a 5-10x power cost (running a lot more equipment for a lot longer) to yield the same btc.

in short, the mpp isn't a win win.  its a token gesture with a lot of strings attached.

Wouldnt you rather have had double hash power on the day 1 delivery, then have 4 times the hash power, 3 months later ?   4 times th e hashpower is 4 times the running costs.

Well at least we know ice isn't a shill, since there's no way HF would pay someone to make their supporters look like lunatics.

BFL pays Inaba...

icetard is the new Inaba and he is way more fun than retard Inaba except that icetard won't make any seppuku announcements :D

Agree the prior post does a bad job because it is x GH/s for delivery in Dec/Jan and then 4x GH/s for delivery in Feb (April? May?).


$500 to $1000 per board?  HF would be asinine to try and charge that.  The good news is a user could simply by their own gear.  User needs to supply power supply and cooling module.  $60 per board for cooling module and if the boards use 250W to 300W ea that is 1/4th a 1250W PSU or say $80 per module.  So maybe $140 per module or $640 for four, plus some DIY case and a couple screws.  Someone would be downright stupid to pay $4,000 for that.

STOP spreading lies around!!   >:(

4 modules might fit comfortably into two pc chassis.  if 4 modules fitted into only one pc chassis, hashfast would already be doing it.  presumably the physical space for the radiators... and the airflow for the coolers doesn't work out well trying to cram 4 rads and 4 modules into a tower chassis, hence why they only put two into a baby jet and three (with one double decker) in a sierra, with twin atx power supplies - which is a custom case with room for the two psus.

so, two decent tower cases... $100 each?  (total $200)   if each module uses approx 1w/gh (as per their latest spec on the sales sheet from a few days ago at Inside Bitcoins conference) and each chip clocks at 500 GH... then for each two modules you need 1000 watts.   if you include the fans, pumps, psu losses, controller etc... then lets say 1200 watts should cover it.     two 1200w platinum psus approx $300 each (total $600).   two raspberry pi's (one for each chassis) with sd cards etc $50 ea (total $100).   Two Corsair H80i coolers ($100 each)  so, if you build it yourself... your cost of parts alone, with you mounting the MPP 4x modules is $1,100.   So presumably hashfast would easily get away with charging circa $1500, to offer to build it for you and save you time and hassle (and their buying power would give them a better margin than you could get from new egg).  And i suspect they could easily charge more... and many people would take it, to know it was done for them and working.

This is a decent starting point for a 4U case with 4 modules in it:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811219030

I guess that we should start engineering it (and not wait for HF to release it's pricing, i don't want to pay them a dime more than theirs production costs).

(just realised that this is not the HF thread)

that one's no good.  the radiators need more than 120mm each...

probably best to not worry about the idea of putting 4 modules in a single chassis, its going to be a very tight fit and it'd be easier to stay with two chassis... s you'd need two power supplies... and lots of module space... and 4 radiator bays.   its not going to be easy to fit 4 modules and their separate coolers in one chassis...!   of course, you could do your own liquid cooling and not need 4 radiators for 4 modules and use bigger radiators shared across more than one asic (a la cointerra's design).  but they're not using standard radiators.

-- Jez

Uh oh. He said they won't ship in December. That must mean January shipping!

you guys do realize that this is not the HF thread right?

o, and by the way.. whats a case? :)   

gotta have some place to mount the radiators, one per asic.  running caseless is possible but impractical.  the dc/dc converters will get very hot and you need good airflow over them...  a case makes guiding the air easier.  and mostly, a case gives you solid walls with screw holes to mount fans and radiators...

i guess this topic should probably be moved to an hf thread so the trolls can have their 'input' ;-)

hijacking of the CT thread is not OK!  ;D

it is now!   :D