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...then the answer appeared right in front of me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COwfIhvRtNw

Morpheus: God was a dream of great government.

Morpheus: You will soon have your god and you will make it with your own hands.

Humanity has been religious for most of its existence out of the craving for meaning, comfort and judgement. We want to be provisioned and esteemed by a higher cause and the state fills that role. As culture remains, most of us will primally submit to authority. People will deny god but then revere a state to fill the void.

Our dream of authority might be a psychological mutation that may or may not serve a good purpose. Its cores may support other human relationships. It may be higher-level and only be a long-term cultural pandemic that served great purpose in our early inception and has long since become vestigial.

Whatever it may be, humans tend not to look to themselves for comfort but to something above them. Governments, gods and other authorities serve that role. Some have left completely them such as I; however, I am but a part of a minority.  

My conclusion: The need for acknowledgment from a subordinate or a love for being governed upon is religious and probably primal and not out of any particular utilitarian need, as shown by how fallible and evil government can be for as long as it has.

...and this lust -- the lust for power if truly primal is dangerous. As shown by our other desires that have lead to acts of sexual rape, there are rapists of society in this world and our power structures enable them; which comes to no surprise.

Nope, you've got it wrong.

Fear was most probably the first motivator for supernatural, that is religion. After that, somebody offered security through religion as well, hence we found all this bullshit (-> goverment etc).

You can fool people into believing any shit that makes zero sense if they don't have tools in their mind to deconstruct and detect bullshit of that particular kind. Religion, government, sects, racism, nationalism, divine right of kings, human sacrifice as part of some ritual (fear?) etc... I'm not saying everything in this paragraph makes zero sence but stil.

Everything social in this world works because something or somebody has some kind of interest in doing things that particular way... no matter how small it may be or how stupid (just liking the religion?).

http://www.clearbits.net/torrents/164-god-wants-you-dead

Here is some food for your thoughts... :) Gives a nice explanation about how ideas work, spread, and become what they become (religion, government, etc)

Basically, the first two chapters explain the important stuff, the rest is the first two chapters in terms of different ideas like religion, government, simple memes like "look both sides when you cross a street" etc...

Let me know what you think if you happen to browse the book (and yes, this is a legal torrent).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrW-ZU3X-zU

It's no accident that the Gaia Hypothesis was named after the grandmother of Zeus.

Human desire is the netrin which developed the nervous system, satellites, telescopes, computers and networks. Humans, in exploring space are the gametes, zygotes, or spores which may germinate from our conspired creation.

We are god, individually or collectively. Jesus said as much. The kingdom of heaven is upon us in the here and now if we choose to accept. In death, when our senses collapse upon us, we are ultimate, and pass unmerciful judgment upon ourselves, and create our next reality as we see fit for ourselves, whether that is heaven, hell, reincarnation as a toad or god.

Religion has next to nothing to do with it.  The term that you are looking for is belief.  Specificly a belief that the unknown constitutes a threat.  In the age of city-states and before, that unknown was the intent and abilities of differing cultures beyond the line of sight of the city tower.  Governments formed for the collective defense of small communities, thus appointing the most able among themselves to direct such a collective defense against threats both real and imagined.  Over generations, however, the families who abandoned yeomanship in favor of professional security became a warrior class; distinct from the community they were intended to protect.  After this point, the lack of identity with the community at large would create a situation wherein the ambitions of those in the warrior class (during periods of particular peace and stability) led to the creation of a political class in command of the warrior class.  And thus the betrayal of the common citizenry was complete.  Essentially, all governments are up-sized protection rackets.  The modern pretense of civil control is simply a matter of progression.

The muslims see it most succinctly; Islam=Submission.

I think the human tendency to the collective, to willingly conform and submit must be one and the same explanation for belief (self deception) and worship (engaging in rituals) of imaginary supreme beings, whether they sit on Cloud Nine or One Pennsylvania Ave.

The metaphors of parental figures and deities are all mixed up. Our Father of the Kingdom of Heaven. Father of the Republic. Lord of the Land. Supreme Ruler.

Incidentally, Sin = Guilt = Debt in the original Hebrew. Birth is the original Debt. We're taught at an early age that our birth parents have rights over us granted by the earth parent (government) whose sovereignty is blessed by the ultimate parent (god) who was created by the parent of all ignorance (ourselves).

I'm very into awareness, consciousness, spirituality, philosophy, and have always been a non hive thinker.
I've read every (well not every but every major) religions holy books, I've studied all the hermetic, Gnostic, and secret societies and ancient wisdom schools, I have probably also read every major work on sacred texts. I've experimented with everything from occult magic to pyramids to nlp and the one thing that I have found is that you become what you think about, and the more you think about it and take even little steps towards it, and the more you believe this, it manifests and you attract others of like mind.  You can call it law of attraction or whatever you want, but I'm not talking about reading the book "The Secret".

In all I have learned, and then practically applied in tests to see results in my life, dreams, being, it comes down to this:

We are all what you would term 'God' or ONE or energy or connected or chi or the One Infinite Creator or __________ insert whatever fits your bill there.  

Like a heartbeat, and like breathing, we go through energy cycles of separation and connection or oneness.... back to being in oneness, then into our uniqueness.  In actuality we are always one, but our perception shifts. Both are a wonderful thing.  The unique you is a filter through which you get to look at the rest of you - other selves, supposedly physical items, and have experience.  Your belief systems create these experiences.   This 3d/4d world is slower at manifesting but that is speeding up.  In your dreams, things can be non linear and be created out of thin air - here it takes longer and is more linear, but that is only an illusion. Both can be dreams, thought is what is real, the only thing that can be proven is that you exist and are having experience.  Since this is so, you have always existed and will always exist, it is only your experience and form that changes - you are in an eternal moment that is a bubble, time is not linear.  If time were truly linear, there would be an infinite amount of time before your birth, so this current you couldn't possibly be reading this.

Most people give up the quest to really KNOW just what the hell is going on here?  They are too busy running the rat wheel to maintain their material possession life style. It unfortunately usually requires some great tragedy, hardship, sadness, or suffering to form a catalyst to finally wake up out of the sheeple heard that is society.  Most people are not original thinkers and living what they were told to live, but they think they made it up.  This is not bad as it sounds as eventually, everyone will wake up, because everyone is one.

Government & religion, while sometimes having good intentions,  always decay into control & power structures that impose fear on the non adept or uninitiated spirit.  

"I'm too busy to think about my being, I have to go to WORK and do REAL stuff to make money, I have a mortgage for christ's sake, don't talk to me about this new age bullshit." Will be most people's reply to any sort of discussion like this.  The system was designed that way be a few individuals who wished to retain power and the knowledge of everyone's true potential to themselves.

This can clearly be seen all around the world in the massive fear mongering that dominates almost every news broadcast, which is then followed 90% of the time by an anti depressant medication commercial or some other BS drug that does not heal anything, but just makes one sicker.

Because of this, most enlightenment schools simply went secretive, because all of everything is within you, not without you, and you must seek within and grow in your own Gnostic experience. No one can TELL you truth, and every truth is relative until you know something for your own self.  

I don't know what the hell I am doing here talking about this on the bitcoin forums, but I felt like writing it. I hope it stirs something in you, or perhaps I'm just a lunatic.

- Blackout


  

Sure, it's all a conflict between our own desires for comfort against others' desires and against the comfort of the collective, in numerous levels and interdependencies. Ultimately we are organisms that exist only because we can control our environment, which of course includes other organisms. Our strategies include the purely selfish, cooperative, and deceitful.

The primary desire is survival. From this comes the ego, which spawns the whole glorious mess.

On the path to enlightenment we need to find a balance, a middle road, between personal gain and mutual benefit. There are no successfully predefined 'isms' (individualism, socialism, anarchism) that we can blindly follow. The trick is to be aware now and make the wisest choice given the unique situation at hand. The only preparation is diligent concentration on and awareness of the present.

Is Biology among your theological bookshelves. The Selfish Gene is an inspired text.

There could be a simpler explanation.  We are tribal by nature and in tribes, the chief acts as decision maker in disputes and leads the defence of the tribe against other tribes.  Once tribes got to a certain size, the chiefs would have needed admin staff to look after decision making and enforcement staff to look after raising fighting forces. And there you have the roots of government.

I interpret the OP asking why we continue to submit to governments. I think it's a genetic semi-altruistic tendency, including a deference to parents. Both religion and government are attempts to understand, exert control over, and protection from the frightening unknown. Our susceptibility to control I think is a survival instinct that creates the bond between child and mother that we never quite ween.

Perhaps thats part of the picture. 

But also a big part of the picture is the same reason we submit to referees in football games.  Society has an agreed set of rules and has an agreed set of people to enforce them.  Very few people "submit" to the state because they regard the state as acting on their behalf.

Certainly. Even societies of thieves have rules, morals, customs, and obligations. Which I suppose is part of what 'society' means.

Animals have societies too, many have hierarchies and family raising, but as far as I know, they don't have religion. So it doesn't seem to follow that we are creating government in order to construct a god. I think god is just an ideal, be it family, government, or life. It's inevitable that with man's creation of a perfection in his own image that any powerful imperfection (say nobility) will attribute those qualities upon themselves for marketing and public relations.



Interesting point, but games, like dreams, are ways for us to hone our survival skills. When games are invented by children, they come up with the rules as compromises to make it mutually beneficial, but both the play and the generation of the rules are a power struggle. Once the rules are codified, they struggle for power within those frameworks and very often break the rules if they think they can get away with it, while appealing to the rules if they've been cheated by others or can convince the ref to their own advantage. Thus the 'rules' are only constraints of reality (even if imagined). The fact that they helped generate (or agreed to accept) the rules that now constrain them are 'sunk costs'.

I agree completely.  And once the rules are set, the power struggle is channelled in a way that all participants agree is good for the group even if as individuals they cheat. 

Sounds like government doesn't it?  We do drive over the speed limit but we still agree that a speed limit is a good idea.  We do dodge taxes but we agree that roads, police, etc. are needed.  There is very little submission really - society is primarily collaborative.

Yes indeed, and I believe it comes out of the unconscious understanding that "I" (whatever that means) am my own government upon my body, mind, soul and spirit. Just as "YOU" are for yours. By birthright. As such it is deeply and personally religious as opposed to "following" religious.

If we need society as a functioning body, then we need an influencing authority somehow, even if we might not call it government, religion, drug lord or whatever.

We cannot think or create something which does not exist inside ourselves first. And vice versa, if something exists inside, it will sometime find its expression in our conscious life and dealings.

Society and government are made in the image of ourselves. And then we make ourselves in the image of them, because it is the easiest path to take instead of the long winding road of self development and understanding. Alas, this is what fucks things up.

I don't think that's strictly true. It is only that the (whole of subset of) participants feel the cost of rebellion is greater than the disadvantages of participation, otherwise they revolt or flee. I don't think even the ruling generals in Burma's junta thought it was a good system or that they were ultimately benefiting.

Even consistent losers may enjoy a game, but if players feel that the rules are stacked against them or that they have better alternatives (with respect to all rules like social cohesion, etc), they won't play.

True.  But then we are discussing what is a legitimate form of government.  My understand is that OP was regarding the existence of any government at all as based on ignorant superstition and illegitimate.

A conclusion reached from a video game?

Government could only have formed with the desire for power. Followers could have been gained through bribes but also fear and confusion. Old governments were largely kept together through the armies and hence the leaders required to satisfy the army. They ruled by might and with an iron fist.

I jus discovered that the "newbie protection" in Villages Online (http://villages.mygamesonline.org/) is a fig-leaf.

You get to display a dove image on your profile that supposedly indicates you are "protected".

I wondered whether the players would actually honour the thing, so I came here remembering one often finds libertarians here and they apparently are just what such a world needs, since it is a free market in which anyone is free order their armies around as they choose.

Will a libertarian paradise emerge?

How will they deal with the problem that barbarians might rake in more resources than they do due to having no qualms about looting newbies?

Are there still liberatarians around here? Lets see how it actually plays out without a "higher power" (the scripts of the game) providing "protection" to newbies...

Join the coin wars at Villages Online (http://villages.mygamesonline.org/)!

-MarkM-

I'm assuming "I" in quotes alludes to the teachings of anattā (no-self), the negation of the personal ātman (self ego) XOR to the philosophical antithesis, a big daddy of all interconnected Ātman (One, Ultimate Soul, Godself, Reality, Momma's Homemade Cook'n). And either are cool if you aspire toward a selfless, truly kind and loving, Barney the Purple Dinosaur society, but you'll be immune to others' expression of their egos only if you truly abandon your own ego. But there's the rub.

Anarchy would work brilliantly if everyone respected axiomatic moral codes. We build governments because people don't. Either the a$sholes create the government or the meek band together in opposition, but either way egos use whatever power structures are at hand to further express and elevate themselves, otherwise they create those power structures, whether church, government, or knitting club.

Ideal society arises ONLY from the individual, who may inspire by example but must be immune to the uninspired, and be willing to suffer the consequences of his determination to the very end.

Appamāda!

Would someone need to delve into Buddhism to figure out what I stated? I, for what it's worth, haven't. I know it's not new, original thought in the context of the history of world religions, but I'm talking about my personal one.
Getting there...
Correct deduction, on an imaginary premise. Humans have the ability to choose (that does not mean they choose what is beneficial for them and for society) therefore you will always have some who will choose to not respect those moral codes, given an incentive. And the weak hands will always be influenced by the strong hands, thus a government of sorts. I've lived in anarchic communes when I was young, and I've seen the "government" in action. Regardless of what I would hope for or believe.
Fully agreed with the exception of the "ideal" adjective. I'm not looking for such a thing anymore. A 1% improvement per year is good enough for me.
[/quote]
Needful indeed.

They'll rebel, take over, and set up... that's right, another government... that they find more in their favor.

Government exists because lawless society cannot exist.  Government is a natural human tendency because social contract and someone to enforce that social contract is necessary for people to live in even small groups, let alone massive civilizations.

You know those libertarian seasteads? The first thing that will happen will be the organization of some type of HOA - a homeowner's association - and the required payment of a fee (tax).

You're damn right.  Do you know the difference between a tax and a homeowners' association fee?  You know the fee before you move in, and are free to move away if you no longer wish to pay it.  I dare you to refuse to pay your taxes "due" and move out of the country.

This was discussed in another thread.  If you inherent the property (same as being born into the country), you're now into the HOA whether you want to be or not.  You can, from this point, opt to sell the property if you don't like the HOA contract, but you still owe the fees due while the house is on the market.

Likewise, when born into this society, you're free to leave at any time you wish.  You are not forced to stay against you will.  Leave whenever you would like.  During the time you choose to stay, you also choose to pay the fees associated with living here, just like the HOA fees on the inherited house.

Well said. And the home buyer who voluntarily decides to take up residence in the HOA and pay the fee is directly analogous to the individual who immigrates to the US (or whatever nation they have chosen to take up residence in).

That's the theory, but try it and see what happens.  If you are an American living and working abroad, you will be taxed by the US government.  I dare you to refuse to pay that tax.  Even revocation of your natural born citizenship doesn't fly, because the US won't accept it and most other nations that you might want to live in won't protect you should the MIB come pay you a visit in your new country of residence.

That means you failed to remove yourself from the society.  Revoke your citizenship, establish new citizenship, and have a nice day, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Despite the common belief that you are free to move to any nation you choose, an American is not free to revoke their own citizenship without the permission of the US State Department.  They don't make it easy, and wouldn't make it possible if they could get away with it.  I'm not claiming it's right, I'm saying it's reality.  Move to Israel and get citizenship there, get a job, and return to the US on a Israeli visa and they might just leave you be.  But if you move to Israel, start a company and become wealthy entirely beyond the borders of the US, and return to the US under any method using your own name, you can expect to pay out your unpaid federal income taxes earned abroad if you wish to see your wife in Israel again.  It really is all about the money.  If you don't have enough earnings abroad for them to care about, they won't.  If you end up making a fortune, you can expect a shakedown eventually.

As always, citation required.


Also, you're talking about the US like it's the only country on earth.  How about the other 190+ countries on earth?  Some you can't leave at all because they'll kill you.  Some you can do litereally whatever you want and no one gives a shit.  So there's a large range of differences.  On average though, totalitarian countries aside, you can revoke your citizenship and peace the fuck out whenver you want.  It's all voluntary, just like the HOA, so your points are entirely shot.


So let me ask you, since you obviously dislike this system strongly... have you attempted to leave your home country?  If not, why?

Take a look at page four of an USA passport:

and from the State Dept: Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship (http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html)

and US Tax Form 2555-EZ (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f2555ez.pdf) (pdf) if your income is exclusively foreign earned (up to 91500 USD is exempt if you haven't set foot in the States for more than 34 days and other fine print).

All you have to do is not selectively quote:



i.e. If you owe the IRS 2010's tax return, they're coming after you for it.  You can't revoke your citizenship on December 31st and expect to not have to pay that year's taxes come April.  Likewise, you can't revoke your citizenship and magically be freed from a military service contract.  If you signed up for four years, you're in for four years.

It's NOT saying that you'll forever and always be taxed by the US, which is what Moonshadow is trying to claim will happen.

I'm not American but I've spent a lot of time in the States and it isn't that bad.  Why not try to get your ideas enacted instead of leaving?

http://www.escapefromamerica.com/2011/08/is-it-getting-harder-to-become-an-expat-and-escape-from-america/

I'll just leave this here.

www.escapefromamerica.com huh?  Sounds really reputable and unbiased on issues dealing with emigration from the US.   ::)

I wasn't that impressed with the list. Honestly, I didn't see anything on the list that would dissuade me or really cause me difficulties if I wanted to leave the US in relation to say, if I wanted to leave the US ten or fifteen years ago.

Do you shop for books by their covers as well?

I always take into the bias and agenda of the author into account.  It would be foolish not to.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/help-im-on-the-irs-hit-list/article2171697/

"Brian and his wife are from the States. He took out Canadian citizenship years ago. They’ve lived and worked in Canada for decades. They have no U.S. income or assets. They are 100-per-cent tax compliant – in Canada.

“Forget about it,” I advised. “What could they possibly do to you?”

We’re about to find out.

I’m on the IRS hit list, too. I came here at 13, and I’ve been a citizen since 1979. I don’t have a U.S. passport or any U.S. earnings. But the IRS wants to confiscate a large chunk of my retirement savings. Many of my friends are in the same fix. They send me e-mails saying things like, “Have you filled out the FBAR [Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts] yet?” The amnesty deadline has come and gone, and we still have no idea what to do.

“It’s not the back taxes that will kill you,” Brian told me. “It’s the penalties.” It turns out the IRS can fine you for every unreported bank account, mutual fund and RRSP – at a rate of $10,000 per offence per year. It can also confiscate as much as 25 per cent of the maximum amount you’ve held in each account. This is so absurd it can’t possibly be true. But it is. "

Pointless story is pointless without details.  But it does support your worldview, so feel free to accept it without question and use it to justify your beliefs.

I don't need it to justify my beliefs.  I posted it so that others, including yourself, might benefit a little by a small breakdown in your cognative dissonance.  If you believe that you can just leave the US and renounce your citizenship and then you will be left alone, you are deluding yourself.  That might happen, but the US government meddles in the affairs of foreign citizens who have never set foot on US soil.  What on Earth makes you think that you would be immune whether or not there is a legal justification for it?  The only way for you to be certain that they will never come to tax you in a foreign land, is to never have anything worth the trip.

You just keep telling yourself that it's all a flash in the pan, AyeYo, and that MoonShadow doesn't know jack.


http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/the-attack-on-accidental-americans/

"The IRS is making a worldwide push to squeeze money from Americans living abroad and from anyone who holds dual citizenship, whether they know it or not. It doesn’t matter if the “duals” want U.S. status, have never set foot on U.S. soil or never conducted business with an American. It doesn’t matter if those targeted owe a single cent to the IRS. Unlike almost every other nation in the world, the United States requires citizens living abroad to file tax forms on the money they do not owe as well as to report foreign bank accounts or holdings such as stocks or RSSPs. The possible penalty for not reporting is $10,000 per “disclosed asset” per year.

Thus, Americans and dual citizens living in Canada (or elsewhere) who do not disclose their local checking account — now labeled by the IRS as “an illegal offshore account” — are liable for fines that stretch back 10 years and might amount to $100,000. A family, like the Knolls, in which there are two American parents and two dual-citizen children, might be collectively liable for $400,000.

Approximately 7 million Americans live abroad. According to the IRS, they received upward of 400,000 tax returns from expatriates last year — a compliance rate of approximately 6%. Presumably, the compliance of dual-citizen children is far lower. Customs and Immigration is now sharing information with the IRS and, should any of 94% expats or their accidentally American offspring set foot on U.S. soil, they are vulnerable to arrest."