I've contemplated why man has created government...

[AyeYo]

Even consistent losers may enjoy a game, but if players feel that the rules are stacked against them or that they have better alternatives (with respect to all rules like social cohesion, etc), they won't play.

They'll rebel, take over, and set up... that's right, another government... that they find more in their favor.

Government exists because lawless society cannot exist.  Government is a natural human tendency because social contract and someone to enforce that social contract is necessary for people to live in even small groups, let alone massive civilizations.

[FirstAscent]

Even consistent losers may enjoy a game, but if players feel that the rules are stacked against them or that they have better alternatives (with respect to all rules like social cohesion, etc), they won't play.

They'll rebel, take over, and set up... that's right, another government... that they find more in their favor.

Government exists because lawless society cannot exist.  Government is a natural human tendency because social contract and someone to enforce that social contract is necessary for people to live in even small groups, let alone massive civilizations.

You know those libertarian seasteads? The first thing that will happen will be the organization of some type of HOA - a homeowner's association - and the required payment of a fee (tax).

[MoonShadow]

Even consistent losers may enjoy a game, but if players feel that the rules are stacked against them or that they have better alternatives (with respect to all rules like social cohesion, etc), they won't play.

They'll rebel, take over, and set up... that's right, another government... that they find more in their favor.

Government exists because lawless society cannot exist.  Government is a natural human tendency because social contract and someone to enforce that social contract is necessary for people to live in even small groups, let alone massive civilizations.

You know those libertarian seasteads? The first thing that will happen will be the organization of some type of HOA - a homeowner's association - and the required payment of a fee (tax).

You're damn right.  Do you know the difference between a tax and a homeowners' association fee?  You know the fee before you move in, and are free to move away if you no longer wish to pay it.  I dare you to refuse to pay your taxes "due" and move out of the country.

[AyeYo]

You're damn right.  Do you know the difference between a tax and a homeowners' association fee?  You know the fee before you move in, and are free to move away if you no longer wish to pay it.  I dare you to refuse to pay your taxes "due" and move out of the country.

This was discussed in another thread.  If you inherent the property (same as being born into the country), you're now into the HOA whether you want to be or not.  You can, from this point, opt to sell the property if you don't like the HOA contract, but you still owe the fees due while the house is on the market.

Likewise, when born into this society, you're free to leave at any time you wish.  You are not forced to stay against you will.  Leave whenever you would like.  During the time you choose to stay, you also choose to pay the fees associated with living here, just like the HOA fees on the inherited house.

[FirstAscent]

You're damn right.  Do you know the difference between a tax and a homeowners' association fee?  You know the fee before you move in, and are free to move away if you no longer wish to pay it.  I dare you to refuse to pay your taxes "due" and move out of the country.

This was discussed in another thread.  If you inherent the property (same as being born into the country), you're now into the HOA whether you want to be or not.  You can, from this point, opt to sell the property if you don't like the HOA contract, but you still owe the fees due while the house is on the market.

Likewise, when born into this society, you're free to leave at any time you wish.  You are not forced to stay against you will.  Leave whenever you would like.  During the time you choose to stay, you also choose to pay the fees associated with living here, just like the HOA fees on the inherited house.

Well said. And the home buyer who voluntarily decides to take up residence in the HOA and pay the fee is directly analogous to the individual who immigrates to the US (or whatever nation they have chosen to take up residence in).

[MoonShadow]

Likewise, when born into this society, you're free to leave at any time you wish. 

That's the theory, but try it and see what happens.  If you are an American living and working abroad, you will be taxed by the US government.  I dare you to refuse to pay that tax.  Even revocation of your natural born citizenship doesn't fly, because the US won't accept it and most other nations that you might want to live in won't protect you should the MIB come pay you a visit in your new country of residence.

[AyeYo]

Likewise, when born into this society, you're free to leave at any time you wish. 

  If you are an American

That means you failed to remove yourself from the society.  Revoke your citizenship, establish new citizenship, and have a nice day, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

[MoonShadow]

Likewise, when born into this society, you're free to leave at any time you wish. 

  If you are an American

That means you failed to remove yourself from the society.  Revoke your citizenship, establish new citizenship, and have a nice day, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Despite the common belief that you are free to move to any nation you choose, an American is not free to revoke their own citizenship without the permission of the US State Department.  They don't make it easy, and wouldn't make it possible if they could get away with it.  I'm not claiming it's right, I'm saying it's reality.  Move to Israel and get citizenship there, get a job, and return to the US on a Israeli visa and they might just leave you be.  But if you move to Israel, start a company and become wealthy entirely beyond the borders of the US, and return to the US under any method using your own name, you can expect to pay out your unpaid federal income taxes earned abroad if you wish to see your wife in Israel again.  It really is all about the money.  If you don't have enough earnings abroad for them to care about, they won't.  If you end up making a fortune, you can expect a shakedown eventually.

[AyeYo]

Likewise, when born into this society, you're free to leave at any time you wish.  

  If you are an American

That means you failed to remove yourself from the society.  Revoke your citizenship, establish new citizenship, and have a nice day, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Despite the common belief that you are free to move to any nation you choose, an American is not free to revoke their own citizenship without the permission of the US State Department.  They don't make it easy, and wouldn't make it possible if they could get away with it.  I'm not claiming it's right, I'm saying it's reality.  Move to Israel and get citizenship there, get a job, and return to the US on a Israeli visa and they might just leave you be.  But if you move to Israel, start a company and become wealthy entirely beyond the borders of the US, and return to the US under any method using your own name, you can expect to pay out your unpaid federal income taxes earned abroad if you wish to see your wife in Israel again.  It really is all about the money.  If you don't have enough earnings abroad for them to care about, they won't.  If you end up making a fortune, you can expect a shakedown eventually.

As always, citation required.


Also, you're talking about the US like it's the only country on earth.  How about the other 190+ countries on earth?  Some you can't leave at all because they'll kill you.  Some you can do litereally whatever you want and no one gives a shit.  So there's a large range of differences.  On average though, totalitarian countries aside, you can revoke your citizenship and peace the fuck out whenver you want.  It's all voluntary, just like the HOA, so your points are entirely shot.


So let me ask you, since you obviously dislike this system strongly... have you attempted to leave your home country?  If not, why?

[netrin]

Take a look at page four of an USA passport:

8. Loss of U.S. Citizenship: Under certain circumstances, you
may lose your U.S. Citizenship by performing voluntarily and with
the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship, any of the following
acts: (1) being naturalized to a foreign state; (2) taking an oath or
making a declaration to a foreign state; (3) serving in the armed
forces of a foreign state (4) accepting employment with a foreign
government; or (5) formally renouncing U.S. citizenship before a U.S.
consular officer overseas.
...
You may continue to have U.S. tax liability even if you lose U.S.
nationality.

and from the State Dept: Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship

and US Tax Form 2555-EZ (pdf) if your income is exclusively foreign earned (up to 91500 USD is exempt if you haven't set foot in the States for more than 34 days and other fine print).

[AyeYo]

All you have to do is not selectively quote:

E. TAX & MILITARY OBLIGATIONS /NO ESCAPE FROM PROSECUTION

Also, persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should also be aware that the fact that a person has renounced U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information). In addition, the act of renouncing U.S. citizenship will not allow persons to avoid possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in the United States, or escape the repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in the United States or incurred as United States citizens abroad.

i.e. If you owe the IRS 2010's tax return, they're coming after you for it.  You can't revoke your citizenship on December 31st and expect to not have to pay that year's taxes come April.  Likewise, you can't revoke your citizenship and magically be freed from a military service contract.  If you signed up for four years, you're in for four years.

It's NOT saying that you'll forever and always be taxed by the US, which is what Moonshadow is trying to claim will happen.

[Hawker]

Likewise, when born into this society, you're free to leave at any time you wish. 

  If you are an American

That means you failed to remove yourself from the society.  Revoke your citizenship, establish new citizenship, and have a nice day, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Despite the common belief that you are free to move to any nation you choose, an American is not free to revoke their own citizenship without the permission of the US State Department.  They don't make it easy, and wouldn't make it possible if they could get away with it.  I'm not claiming it's right, I'm saying it's reality.  Move to Israel and get citizenship there, get a job, and return to the US on a Israeli visa and they might just leave you be.  But if you move to Israel, start a company and become wealthy entirely beyond the borders of the US, and return to the US under any method using your own name, you can expect to pay out your unpaid federal income taxes earned abroad if you wish to see your wife in Israel again.  It really is all about the money.  If you don't have enough earnings abroad for them to care about, they won't.  If you end up making a fortune, you can expect a shakedown eventually.

I'm not American but I've spent a lot of time in the States and it isn't that bad.  Why not try to get your ideas enacted instead of leaving?

[MoonShadow]

http://www.escapefromamerica.com/2011/08/is-it-getting-harder-to-become-an-expat-and-escape-from-america/

I'll just leave this here.

[AyeYo]

www.escapefromamerica.com huh?  Sounds really reputable and unbiased on issues dealing with emigration from the US.   

[FirstAscent]

http://www.escapefromamerica.com/2011/08/is-it-getting-harder-to-become-an-expat-and-escape-from-america/

I'll just leave this here.

I wasn't that impressed with the list. Honestly, I didn't see anything on the list that would dissuade me or really cause me difficulties if I wanted to leave the US in relation to say, if I wanted to leave the US ten or fifteen years ago.

[MoonShadow]

www.escapefromamerica.com huh?  Sounds really reputable and unbiased on issues dealing with emigration from the US.   

Do you shop for books by their covers as well?

[AyeYo]

www.escapefromamerica.com huh?  Sounds really reputable and unbiased on issues dealing with emigration from the US.   

Do you shop for books by their covers as well?

I always take into the bias and agenda of the author into account.  It would be foolish not to.

[MoonShadow]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/help-im-on-the-irs-hit-list/article2171697/

"Brian and his wife are from the States. He took out Canadian citizenship years ago. They’ve lived and worked in Canada for decades. They have no U.S. income or assets. They are 100-per-cent tax compliant – in Canada.

“Forget about it,” I advised. “What could they possibly do to you?”

We’re about to find out.

I’m on the IRS hit list, too. I came here at 13, and I’ve been a citizen since 1979. I don’t have a U.S. passport or any U.S. earnings. But the IRS wants to confiscate a large chunk of my retirement savings. Many of my friends are in the same fix. They send me e-mails saying things like, “Have you filled out the FBAR [Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts] yet?” The amnesty deadline has come and gone, and we still have no idea what to do.

“It’s not the back taxes that will kill you,” Brian told me. “It’s the penalties.” It turns out the IRS can fine you for every unreported bank account, mutual fund and RRSP – at a rate of $10,000 per offence per year. It can also confiscate as much as 25 per cent of the maximum amount you’ve held in each account. This is so absurd it can’t possibly be true. But it is. "

[AyeYo]

Pointless story is pointless without details.  But it does support your worldview, so feel free to accept it without question and use it to justify your beliefs.

[MoonShadow]

I don't need it to justify my beliefs.  I posted it so that others, including yourself, might benefit a little by a small breakdown in your cognative dissonance.  If you believe that you can just leave the US and renounce your citizenship and then you will be left alone, you are deluding yourself.  That might happen, but the US government meddles in the affairs of foreign citizens who have never set foot on US soil.  What on Earth makes you think that you would be immune whether or not there is a legal justification for it?  The only way for you to be certain that they will never come to tax you in a foreign land, is to never have anything worth the trip.