Bitcoin Forum

FYI, paypal has started a massive banning campaign on accounts selling anything bitcoin related, whether it's mining equipment, ebooks, or the currency itself.

This is a new action they started around mid Jan of this year.

You will be warned once, then your account will be perm banned from paypal, with all money inside frozen.  

I got called from paypal because i sold a few casascius coins (no issues with the transaction itself, buyers all happy).  But the lady said because i sold bitcoin my account is now under review for a perm ban. I stated i have been selling since early 2013 with no issues, and it's perfectly legal within ebay they even created a new category called virtual currency for it.

But she could careless just reading off a script, but I managed to get it out of her it's some new policy they are now implementing against bitcoin. She doesnt really even understand what it is, as long as the auction has the word bitcoin in it, over certain $ amount, and buyer paid with paypal, you are at risk getting the hammer.  If you check online many similar stories in the last month or so.

That's one way to try shut down the competition.  ,,!,, paypal

Demonstrates exactly why bitcoin is superior in the first place. Nobody to stand behind you telling you what you can & can't sell.

You were selling a physical item that was perfectly allowed and they froze your money because they didn't like it...  How is that not illegal?

sue them!

exactly, i explained very clearly everything i sold was physical - casascius coins and some asic mining equipment, nothing virtual.  But she doesnt care or even understand, to be fair i dont think it's her fault she's just a drone.

i have been with paypal for over 10 years with a business account and paypal credit card, do about $10k transaction with them each month. And they would just ban me because i listed a few bitcoin auction is insane

I wondering if i should withdraw money from paypal now, got about $6k in there, but if i do i think it will worsen my chance of not getting perm ban.

what a nightmare, becareful guys.

edit:  i dont think buyers are affected, they are only targeting sellers.

Hmm, wanted to sell my miners.

I guess it doesn't need the word 'Bitcoin' in there really.

There is someone else around here suing paypal for similar reasons. See if you can get in touch with them.

you cant sue paypal, you will get buried before getting to court.

some banks closed user's account for the same reason, why? because bitcoin is supposed to destroy them! bank and paypal of cause will fight back!

Congratulations Paypal.

You've just publicly admitted - 'Oh F*ck we're obsolete!'

As long as they don't "ban" users who've purchased $50 of Virwox second life currency to convert to BTC.

Though I did that only once and over 3-4 months ago.

Otherwise, I've been using PayPal for something like 6+ years. I'm not their biggest fan, but I still find it useful for some things.

Cause it's paypal and they can spend millions on lawyers,  you can't  ;) >:( :o :-\ :-[

What about private transaction???  Are they banning that as well?? (Can they see what we're selling?)

I'm talking about transaction conducted via forum or chatroom...

just wondering..  :o

Never use PayPal for anything involving bitcoin. It is just that simple. PayPal stands to be the biggest looser if bitcoin catches on. Why would they want to help us?

Paypal is so hypocritcal. Paypal is owned by Ebay and ebay itself allows people to sell miners, coins, etc but then once the transactions are all processed and stuff, they wanna ban the account and keep all the money to themselves.

Paypal is quite popular for banning a lot of accounts with $1000+.. they ask you to submit all kinds of documents, and still they won't activate the account for another 6 months. They freeze millions of dollars each year to earn interest on the money.

Enjoy freedom by paypal can you imagine if they got to run the world the way they wanted it we would all be little robots

that is not true. they can implement your coin address to your paypal account just like u add debit/credit card. actually ill go as far to say that they are the ones who are able to gain most if they incorporate btc correctly. they have huge user base and they still need to pay the banksters % off every transaction.

Unfortunately they do run the world..or rather north america ecommerce. We are just little ants to them.

PayPal is such a bunch of greedy, selfish retarded freaks...

Point is, whatever PayPal thinks is fine for them, seems to be rediculous for those who bring them the money. Does this understand anyone? Even worse is, you can't argue with them, only clones and drones on the phone, not to speak of automated funny email answering bots.

Sue PayPal? Haha, good luck, make the lawyers happily suck your last drop of blood...

Not to say that I've been through all of this, up today I could dodge some bad nightmares with PayPal, but if you have trouble with them, they suck, really suck. They freeze your account and wait until you beg on knees and swear the hell out of your mind

They dominate the market and they piss on those who bring them the money, fucking lots of money. And still everyone happily uses them (mainly because of nonexistance of a real competitor with adequate market penetration). Strange world and I wish PayPal to go down and burn in flames as they deserve it.

Unfortunately illicit actors are using bitcoin to launder money and cash out stolen funds or credit cards.  If you don't know your counter party you could be complicit in this activity.

Regardless of how you FEEL about it, Anti-Money Laundering Laws exist and banks and payment processors like Paypal are under tremendous pressure from their regulators and auditors to mitigate these risks.

I'm not defending or condoning any activity.  

These are just fact of life in our "post 9/11" society.

now this should get interesting because ebay owns paypal ... if paypals not taking payments regarding bitcoin you can expect the same from ebay soon .

False.

Even Fincen admitted at the Bitcoin discussions last year that illicit actors using an East European branch of Paypal to launder money for example was a much bigger problem than Bitcoin.

The last thing major criminals want is their black book of illegal transactions to be available and dissect-able on a global public ledger.

First they ignore you. Then they yell at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.

can I still sell a 7950 video card on ebay??

is the thought that someone might actually use it to play video games too absurd?  u decide

You'll be fine selling a GPU, there's a lot more uses for those than mining

And the hammer drops, fuck you PayPal I did absolutely nothing wrong. How is selling a few collectible casascius coins on ebay make me a currency exchange.

FTFY

TRUE,

But banker read the Newspapers and Newspapers say bitcoin is TOTALLY ANONYMOUS and they are scared to death of the risks.

And many criminals and a lot of miss-informed individuals who post on here still believe their virtual currency activity is anonymous.

Oh wow that sucks .. although reading this you would think it does have something to do with fincen  ( the whole know your customer bit)
but in the same breath they allow auctions on ebay.. and the FED is going to try and auction off bitcoin....

Who killed BitMit ?   ???

Oh I think they could. It might turn out to be a big win for them. But right now their business does few things that bitcoin couldn't do better and cheaper. If people start sending money around the world and shopping online for pennies per transaction, PayPal is going to have to do something different.


One day they just announced they were done.  ???
No hack, or problem. They said something like "more professional sites should take their place".

It's safer for PayPal to only deal with fiat since the transferring of such is done with some type of safe protocol consisting of zeros and ones, thanks to some punks.

Punks: We did it! Finally, a safe way to transfer money over the internet.
Future PayPal Owners: We're going to be rich!
Punks: Take a look at Bitcoin, PayPal.
PayPal: Get the fuck outta here!

My understanding was that they were purchased (a second time) and were preparing to relaunch.  However, they've been down for a while now.   :'(

Sorry to derail the thread.

That happened to me years ago; luckily the amount was less than that.

Do not use Paypal, they are like a criminal organization, just without the violence

All fine but what does that have to do with ASICs, ebooks, etc sold for fiat?

+1

Personal 100% control over your own money.

What a fucking concept.

LuLz
--------------

This must be pretty recent, because I literally just purchased a miner from ebay, and paid via paypal like normal.  -whew!


EDit: add content

I don't get one thing. According to the email they don't allow users to sell virtual curency, there's no word about mining equipment, but some people got suspended or banned for selling hardware.  ???

I listed an item for sale recently on eBay which had bitcoin in the title.  I was informed that the item would only be listed in a specific category.  I removed the word bitcoin and I was able to list in the more relevant category of my choice.

a bank.  ;D

http://imageshack.com/a/img35/299/lscm.jpg

freezing your money ?? sounds like a scheme to me ..

hmm.. interesting to know.. i have sold some GHS on cex recently. no words of warning yet and there are plenty of others doing the same.

good job i should have my bank account setup for adding payees soon so i can buy my BTC that way as have been using virwox up until i hit the deposit limit for the month.

PayPal's policy since years:

1. Freeze account
2. Harass customer
3. Exploit interest


Recommendation: Don't do business with crooks. Use bitcoin.


ya.ya.yo!

I'll concur in that paypalfroze my account when I was selling bitcoins on Ebay.  I had to sign a statement and get it notarized for my paypal account to get unlocked saying I would not buy or sell bitcoins or other cryptocurrency with Paypal.  I've been paypal verified since 2000 with no account limits.  I asked if I could buy and sell bitcoin hardware and they said "no problem".

That being said, I recently had a payment get "held" for 24 hours while buying a bitcoin miner on ebay last week.

-Chris

I recently talked to PayPal reps about this, more specifically regarding selling Bitcoin mining hardware on eBay.

They wouldn't give me a clear yes or no answer since I'm sure they would like to be able to ban problem accounts without going back on their word, but the rep I talked to said that you "will probably be okay" if you are selling physical, in-hand, mining hardware.  That most likely means no pre-orders, mining contracts, or anything else that you can't pick up, put into a box, and ship to someone.

The issue with Casascius coins is most likely that they are a method of selling private keys associated with Bitcoin balances, i.e., selling Bitcoins, i.e., the seller of the Casascius coin is acting as a currency exchange service since they are taking Dollars in exchange for Bitcoins.  PayPal probably makes this association even if the Bitcoin balance on the coin's address is zero or even if the address is somehow scrubbed off the coin.

PayPal is pretty annoying regarding their restrictions but they are only doing it because it costs them real time and money to deal with buyer disputes and because they need to comply with anti money laundering and other government regulations.  PayPal is a business and they don't want to engage in unprofitable activities.  Wasting all their time on disputes due to scammers, vaporware, and getting fined or slapped by federal regulators isn't profitable and could tarnish their reputation so PayPal prohibits certain transactions (like many Bitcoin related ones) for the overall good of all their users.

tldr: PayPal needs to cooperate with big banks and large government organizations and also not be overwhelmed with buyer protection cases due to scammers, etc. in order to offer its services and therefore has to sometimes make compromises on what is considered acceptable use to better serve their customers as a whole.

paypal sucks !!!!

I'd say the scammers brought this on themselves... too many people going to ebay or paypal claiming they did not get what they ordered and creating hassle for ebay/paypal. The buyer of a couple of ASIC block erupters did this to me and I got an email a week ago saying ebay fixed a buyer protection case that was filed against me by erasing it from my record, meaning for whatever reason they looked at the accounts and my good feedback and account that was created in 1999 and sided with me. Nice, but people here think it's some grand conspiracy when in reality bitcoin seems to be filled with more scammers than other areas where ebay gets sales. Honestly the dumbass ordered 2 block eruptors and claimed he only got one... a claim trying to scam 50 bucks out of me at the time... get a job.

Paypals concept is brilliant. However, the chargebacks and other issues that came when ebay bought them were ridiculous. Bitcoin is far better.
And thats why paypal hates it. It is a competitor that is growing at a rapid rate.
 

Long live bitcoin.

so do they issue a warning first or straight to a ban? dont think ill be keeping any wothwhile amount of money in my account if this is the kind of shit theyre up to now.

That is outrageous.   Given your history with them, I would think that they would see how much business you bring them before threatening to ban you over something so small

I went through this not once but twice, I operate a mmorpg gold exchange they thought I was selling bitcoins. They said it was ok for me to sell game gold but not btc make sense? Rs3 gold was the bitcoin before bitcoin was invented.

sue paypal  >:(

Keep in mind the dollar amount matters, I think anything over $1000 (but no one really knows the exact amount)triggers an account review followed by a phone call reading the script then a ban or account limit.

I called them again after my account was limited, the rep kept on and on about against policy selling virtual currency, I then asked is physical collectible coins allowed, he said yes, I then asked him to bring up the auction of the casascius coin that caused my account limit and it had a photo of the physical coin. At that point he has no idea what to do next you can tell he went off script, repeated  "yes sir I can see it's a real coin" 3 times, was pretty hilarious.

Of course he couldn't do anything even though he and I both know it was physical collectible coins, which are sold all over ebay.

GET YOUR MONEY OUT OF PAYPAL RIGHT NOW!

My $.02.

;)

Ebay owns PayPal. They wouldn't start banning accounts for bitcoin use AND be introducing a "Virtual Currency" category at the same time.

Too late my account was already limited.... >:(

Regarding bitcoin mining hardware ban policy with paypal, it's a clusterfuck mess right now no one knows, but they definitely banned many accounts selling hardware only.

Check out the below article, basically paypal banned many accounts for selling hardware, after a revolt, CEO retracts and says you can sell mining hardware just not bitcoins....now no one really knows.

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2014/01/13/paypal/

That's EXACTLY what they did, and just so you know they still operate almost as two separate entity not one.

I went through this whole thing. Paypal and eBay are supposedly two different entities. Paypal's CEO has been trying to reform their image as a seller-unfriendly service who closes accounts for no reason.

I'd say the best vector of getting things changed is flooding his twitter account asking why he's doing this. If there's a sustained outcry, I'm sure something will get done. My impression is that it's some mid-level guy that instituted the policy.

Here's his twitter account:

https://twitter.com/davidmarcus

#afraidofbitcoin?

Haha been there. My local online marketplace decided to ban bitcoin starting next month. They allowed the trade of game currencies for years and will continue even after the comming btc ban. They are just stupid  :-\

I remember a guy from this forum who was ready to call this kinda thread a FUD
anyway it's better to avoid PP

The Paypal user agreement allows them to hold your money for 6 months for any reason or no reason at all.  In addition, everytime you receive a chargeback, the 6 month clock starts over - so even 1 chargeback can techncially allow your money to be held for up to a year if it occurs at the end of the 6 month holding period. You agree to it when you open your account - you can't sue.

Here's an idea...WHY NOT USE BITCOIN FOR THESE TRANSACTIONS?????????

Reality for you all kids thats screaming "LETS SUE"

1) Read every single words to the TEE of the service agreement.
2) All financial service providers have their right to terminate the relationship with you for WHATEVER reason they see fit. This apply to banks as well.

Go ahead and talk to a lawyer, i'm sure some lawyers would love to take money from suckers like you.

No, you definetely have been victimised based on some dumb woman's incapacity rather than due to your breach of any plociy let alone law. PayPal were even thinking of adopting bitcoin as a means of payment. It didn't eventuate, but its CEO is a supporter of the idea, as is ebay who run Paypal anyway.

This is evidently due to her not understanding her own company's policy and I would advise reporting her to the relevant branch of PayPal. It is looking like a class action may need to be taken against either this woman or even PayPal itself if they refuse to retract over this matter if this startts happening to all bitcoiners.

Stick to your guns over this one, as the error lies with her not you. (Hope she loses her job over it.)

Lol. Always 1 in every forum sin't there? :D

From the PayPal User Agreement:

"Payments received in your Account may be reversed at a later time, for example, if such a payment is subject to a Chargeback, Reversal, Claim or is otherwise invalidated. This means that for some of our Sellers, payments received into their Account may be returned to the sender or otherwise removed from their Account after they have been paid and/or delivered any goods or services sold....

We may close, suspend, or limit your access to your Account or the PayPal Services, and/or limit access to your Balance for up to 180 Days (or longer if pursuant to a court order or other legal process) if you violate this Agreement, the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy, any other agreement you enter into with PayPal, or as otherwise specified in this Agreement or other agreement you have entered into with PayPal. We may also use proprietary fraud and risk modeling when assessing the risk associated with your Account..."

and my favorite part...

"....you acknowledge that PayPal’s decision to take certain actions, including limiting access to your Account by placing holds or imposing Reserves, may be based on confidential criteria that are essential to our management of risk and the security of Users’ Accounts and the PayPal system. You agree that PayPal is under no obligation to disclose the details of its risk management or security procedures to you."

Not completely true:

1) not contesting this.

2) They have a right to terminate the relationship but they likely can't hold your money for such a long term and here's why...

Any contract which violates state or federal law will either be completely nullified or have the unlawful portion excluded. PayPal operates as a money transmitter service and is bound by state money transmitter laws. Each state establishes the maximum hold time but only two states would allow PayPal to hold funds for 180 days. (North Carolina or New Mexico)

PayPal is holding money in violation of State law and is liable for losses you may incur as a result of the hold as well as interest up to the amount which your state allows.

Basically you can't just make an illegal contract and use it as protection from liability when you break the law...

Find out what your state money transmittor laws permit and take the appropriate actions.

This user agreement is not legally binding in all states! An illegal agreement is unenforceable regardless of it's content. PayPal can't violate a State law just because somebody else agreed to it.

I just came across this article...

http://www.ecommercebytes.com/cab/abn/y11/m12/i16/s01 (http://www.ecommercebytes.com/cab/abn/y11/m12/i16/s01)

I'm guessing that PayPal, and their phalanx of some of the brightest legal minds on planet earth, disagree with you.  They are served with lawsuits over this very issue every single day, and essentially never lose.   Based upon this, I'm guessing that they this document is legally sound.

Here's an idea...since this is a Bitcoin forum and all...let's actually USE BITCOIN.

My comment has nothing to do with holding the fund. Its simply just about service termination. Banks also do that ALL the time (actually more than paypal i would say). Once they deem you as high risk, boom they close your account without giving you any reason.

Seems like the kids on here only yell "sue sue sue" just because paypal decided not dealing with anything related to bitcoin, go ahead and sue them.

This is what makes Bitcoin invincible - I'm in BECAUSE those assclowns will HURT when they LOSE my business

I love that argument... "They have lawyers so they can't break the law."
 
To settle a case is not to win it nor to lose it...

Have you researched the law of your state? Unless you live in North Carolina or New Mexico this agreement is likely a violation of state law...

Gotcha... People will sue for anything these days.

In this case however; the legal basis for the lawsuit is for damages resulting from financial loss because PayPal is knowingly violating State money transmittor laws.

I said nothing of the sort.  I said that PayPal has emerged victorious in virtually every lawsuit filed against it.  Whether or not we like that, it means that their user agreements are legally sound.  I'm no fan of PayPal, but I am a fan of not wasting time and energy filing lawsuits that have no legal merit.

Bitcoin was created precisely to solve these problems.  If we are all such believers in Bitcoin that we are actively participating in a Bitcoin forum, perhaps we should actually use them for commerce instead of trying to argue with an old-economy company that will trounce us in court.  The more people that accept Bitcoin for payment, the better it is for Bitcoin and the faster PayPal will crumble.

This is incorrect. The CEO of PayPal David Marcus has already denied these claims:

    To clarify: we have no policies against using PayPal to sell Bitcoin mining rigs.
    We don't support any currency txn whether fiat or BTC for a host of regulatory
    issues. But we treat BTC and any FX txn the same way. We're believers in
    BTC though.

There was a communication error in January but it was retracted within hours: https://i.imgur.com/GMC0fsd.png

https://twitter.com/davidmarcus/status/422632561882316800

https://twitter.com/davidmarcus/status/422632849670299648

So at the very least mining rigs are okay to sell.

I have a problem with my money being held in liqpay account who can I report this problem to. please help

In my country Paypal adoption didnt even started yet, you can send money but not receive. I know many people who were waiting for that to happen, but now Im glad that Bitcoin will allow to skip that stage. After all soon merchants will massively start post their data on results of Bitcoin purchases, it seems that it would definitely hit Paypals bussines where they care the most - ecommerce, becouse it might look like this one^

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2014/02/05/amazing-results-retailer-australia-started-accepting-bitcoin-6-months-ago/

Someone should now ask the CEO David Marcus about the new policy against bitcoin, till say what he says now about it.  A change of heart, or he just said he liked it so he cannot look like one of the greedy bad guys.  Everyone who has a paypal account or ebay account stop trading on eBay. Dont buy from them.

If this is a surprise, you did not do your due diligence.  Paypal has acted this way for a decade for less risky items than BTC.

Ebay, ok.  Paypal, wtf people?

make 10 businness accounts with high limites on paypal and everything is OK :...... tralalalalallala

PayPal stole a lot of money from e-Gold users way back.

:)

i have been doing due diligence while you are still in diapers, paypal has largely ignored and allowed physical bitcoin sales until beginning of this year when some kind of new policy triggered a massive account review on everything bitcoin related that's considered high value sales, including physical coins.

-----------------

Also guys as much as i appreciate the suggestion to sue, it is not practical. The amount of resource and time you need to allocate to even get a hearing against those large companies with a full legal team of lawyers/ops is not realistic financially for the average person even if you have the means, considering the return even if you win - risk/reward.

Your best bet is file with the BBB and hope the company will take action, i did that once against ebay with good success, cut through all the low level zombies and talked to one of their veepees who promptly resolved the issue.

I agree though ebay and paypal are like the modern day gangsters, can kill your business with 1 shot and no apparent reason, all sellers live in fear of them.  

You don't have to sue them but you should write a letter to the State Department of Financial Services and ask that they investigate PayPal.

I have had 3 charges reversed by paypal the last couple of days. I sold Peercoins on ebay after I sent them and gave TXID. Paypal reversed the charges back to the buyers account. They forced me to sign an affidavit in order to have access to the rest of my money.

We have reviewed your PayPal account and found that you have been involved
in the sale of electronic media exchange (such as electronic money or
digital currency). Per our current Acceptable Use Policy for Money Service
Businesses, PayPal may not be used for currency exchange including the sale
of Unobtanium and Peercoins.

To continue using your PayPal account, we need some additional information
from you. Keep in mind that we have placed a limitation on your PayPal
account, and this limitation will remain until we receive and review this
information. Please remove PayPal from all auctions involving prohibited items

You would think paypal would welcome the incoming revenue considering the fee's they charge people its like a licence to print $ for them.

terrible
do you think thats why BTC drop down in value from $920 to $820 during last hour?

has anyone selling GHS redeem codes for cex.io had any problem with paypal yet? still appears to be just as many GHS listings as there was over a week ago.. including mine ;D

though i am starting to get weary of continuing to sell GHS using my long standing ebay/paypal accounts so i may just start another ebay and paypal account so that in a worst case scenario its only whatever money is in the new paypal account and a new ebay account that gets shot down rather than my original account with 100% over 12 months and 857 feedback. that said, im sure my 100% and 857 feedback helps people in their decision to purchase from me.. i could potentially lose sales with a new account so its a gamble either way.

I love the concept of bitcoin but in the business world (and bitcoin is in that) if you start up something that another company sees as a threat you have got to expect them to react even if some of the reaction is a bit silly at the margins as some of paypal stuff is.

 whether or not those established in a industry can get a piece of the new action and not loose much market share in the existing businesses dictates how much fighting they will do. bitcoin has a long way to go before we see how it handles the regulatory and business hurdles it faces. the big fights are yet to come. this first line of attack from pay pal is just smudging your mascara. wait until your nose is really bloodied.

yea i think there will definately be more to come from other payment provider type juggernauts. when the GHS on ebay thing dies out ill be keeping BTC and fiat currencies away from each other unless when trading using a safe medium or buying BTC via my bank account.

i wonder if/when we will see banks starting to behave like paypal is behaving at the moment?

I refuse to use paypal because they have always been a very dodgy company and haven't really been very loyal to it's customers, I always read that people keep getting their accounts frozen. Once I found out about Bitcoin I totally forgot about paypal and other payment processors and haven't used paypal since.

As more stores and online stores are accepting Bitcoin I doubt many people will find the need to use Paypal and Paypal will soon change their mind about this policy if they want to keep their customers.

i would seriously consider ditching paypal myself but for ebay.. paypal is the single largest payment method on ebay which is the main reason i still use it.

also i take paypal payments for performance chips i sell for select older car ECU's and its kind of handy for that as you dont need facilities to process credit cards and all that which would eat into any profits you make. saying that though i have added a bitcoin accepted here image and QR code on the website, however, im weary of adding them to my ebay listings.

Bitcoin is now considered to be a currency and you cannot use Paypal for currency exchange.

Why do people not get this?

My $.02.

;)

Does quoting that slab of a company's charter mean you're not intelligent enough to enter the debate on this thread? Or that you're some little kid at mommie's computer? What the hell are you doing here? This forum is for adults, go google the addy for the Gears of War forum. All you've done is spammed someone else's words to probably boost your post count. Good job! :D Daddy VERY proud of you! :o

Now fuck off.

^^ This. Quoting slabs of law does not impress anyone seriouscoin if you don't have a clue what it means.

To be fair, PayPal are subsidiaries to eBay, like vadoff and myself both stated, the CEO was initially for it. ("Comm error"? Nah.) And this is a harsh lesson against leaving large sums in PayPal. Get it moved as soon as possible.

My PayPal account is now "in review" and now says "You have 3 days to resolve before your account becomes restricted."

Never had Bitcoin lock my wallet  ;D

LoL my listings have been fine so far.

PayPal froze ~$45k in funds  we had.  However, they lifted it after lots of paperwork and 3 days of talks.

I'd rate them as OK.

Now Amazon...they froze my account for 30 days..

My account is back to regular status now after a 4 day review.

What do you mean lots of paperwork and 3 days of talk?

I'm guessing you just like nobody else has read their user agreement etc. Most likely says there that they have the right to do whatever the hell they want, knowing everyone just presses accept.

PayPal will not list any ad with the word Bitcoin in an auction or a buy it now.  Only as a classified ad. 

Fuck paypal , they're afraid of bitcoin.
I sell my bitcoins over paypal and they can't stop me. Just don't write anything in the note to buyer, send the money like normal.

Paypal has been absurd on this issue, and not clear about it when you ask any questions at all.  First I had about 10k held in an account and they sent the same letter that everyone else has shown previously in this thread, so I called them they said if you do everything required on the resolution page it will be okay, so I returned everyone's money (huge pain) luckily it was mostly contracts so it didn't cause too many problems, signed the affidavit and had it notarized, and they perm-ban my account shortly after.

I decided to sell some scrypt mining hardware, computers with multiple gpus basically, so I called them and made sure that it was not against policy to sell these machines and they said okay.  I sold 1 rig and had my account frozen.  They just wanted to know more information about the item so I explained the item and they lifted the freeze, and send me an email titled "your account is in good standing" immediately followed by "payment has cleared, you can now ship your item."  I submitted a bank transfer for the amount from the sale (3700).  The next email I received was "your account was perm-banned" and I check the transfer and it was reversed.  Thankfully I did not ship until the money was sitting in my bank account but seriously, they lift my freeze, tell me to ship the item, and then reverse my transfer. 

Bottom line is they don't give a shit about their clients.  I know everyone thinks that the solution is not to use PayPal and I wish that were an option, but reality is that eBay gives the highest customer base available and everyone wants to use PayPal for ease and familiarity. 

The President of PayPal even tweeted that it wasn't against policy to sell rigs.  Still fighting daily with them, they have caused me some serious stress though and are really screwing up a start up.

Then I see the same sellers selling rigs and contracts over and over with PayPal as the method of payment.  I don't get how they can continue to do this when they seem to be so active in my accounts.

So frustrating, I hate them so much.

fyi

the account restriction/limit where you have to upload documents to get it resolved is done by the COMPLIANCE DEPT in paypal, they are generally easy to deal with, you just have to call and talk to them and upload documents etc..and they will unlock your account.

the account perm ban is determined by the RISK DEPT in paypal, they are a completely separate unit not visible to the customers, and they operate and review accounts independent of the other paypal branches, their sole purpose for existence is to use some hidden metric to determine if your account should be perm banned. You cannot contact them nor talk to them, the only time someone from that dept will call you is to inform you your account has been perm banned, there is no appeal nor recourse. Your money will be frozen for 6 months, afterwards it requires written permission + valid id matching the paypal account to get it out (they will send you a check).

So you will have many cases where the compliance dept says your account has been restored then 2 mins later it gets perm ban, as stated above the reason is because it's done by 2 separate units, and they don't talk to each other. 

So long story short (too late?), if your account got flagged for review by the risk dept, you are fucked. If it is flagged by compliance, you should be able to talk your way out of it. No one knows the exact criteria used to flag your paypal accounts for review, but keyword bitcoin + high $ value is definitely part of the criteria, so is chargebacks from your buyers.

Paypal is FUBAR, but there is no alternative, they have a complete lock on online payment (at least in the USA).  That's why bitcoin success matters.

The law (If you could decide which country had juristiction) has almost nothing to do with it, Paypal T&C's that you must accept to join, allow them to do pretty much anything they want. They are absolutely notorious for closing down on a whim, and then not giving you any due process. I had a business selling computer equipment that they froze, and to this day i've had no reason or recourse. Will NEVER use/trust them or eBay (same company) again.

I just sold 5 miners on ebay this week no problem what so ever no warning or nothing, took all payments via paypal. I can see them cracking down on the digital currency but they have no right to block sales of any kind of hardware. stop spreading disinformation.

Any suspicion and it'll get banned, unfortunately they don't appreciate competition.

They have every right to make make up the rules on their own service...

That is not entirely true. If, for example, some state legislature passes a law that makes it illegal for companies to freeze funds for over 90 days without providing cause, then PayPal's rule of freezing funds for up to 180 days would now become illegal in that state. They (PayPal) would need to modify their ToS for residents of that state if they want to continue doing business there.

Notwithstanding, to get around that in more practical ways simply allow checks to be used to purchase items on ebay, or cash, or other processors like google checkout etc ...

The point is, if the transaction is legal, any restrictions should be reasonable. 

Paypal is natorious for freezing accounts for little to no reason, what most people don't understand is that the people who pull the trigger at paypal aren't the geniuses there they are the power hungry worker bees, and when they make a mistake the smart ones work to cover it up until policies change. 

The only true solution to this issue is more processors, and more ebay like sites. 

If my memory serves me correctly someone tried the Ebay for Cryptocurrency  and it recently failed. 

Apple, JPM, PayPal.  Bitcoin has entered the "Fight you" phase!!

if you give them the violence they will be more receptive to reason, otherwise you are stuck trying to fight them in an arena where you will most certainly lose -- court

that's not true,

firstly, you can sell virtual currency, just like you can sell fiat on ebay, or many other things but once you sell a lot of them, once it looks like you are in the xyz business you just stepped into a new level of ebay and paypal 

so let's say you have an ebay account and you sold all sorts of different things, and purchased a variety of things over time, it will seem like you are not using ebay in a business way even you think you are.  Conversely, if you recently joined a large cyprtocurrency meetup group was elected treasurer and you thought it would be a good fundraising idea to sell various CCs to raise funds for the club and awareness for the coins,  if you listed and sold 20 different CC over the following month and raised $6000  all of a sudden red flags would go off all over the place.  If you should expect your account to be limited too.

Paypal can look at your account and see what you do, what your proclivities are, and how much of a risk taker you are, ALL of that is factored into their risk algorithm for wanting to work with you.   If you have a strong attitude to add to that mix you can forget it, you will get your walking papers forthwith, but your money will be held for the 180 days.

So if your username has anything to do with bitcoin, if you buy and sell lots of mining equipment, if you subscribe to bitcoin this or that, if you transfer money to other people that also do the same and if they also have "risky" behavior, you could expect to get the 'boot too'.

The answer is simple diversify, when they contact you for anything, take your money out what you are on the phone, they may reverse it anyway but at least try to remove it.

diversify and if at all possible stay away from paypal
 

Congrats you are fortunate  :)

Paypal should of just let it be and collect their ridiculous fees.  Haters gonna hate. 

Paypal vs Bitcoin :)

eh ... :) But seems reasonable. Paypal fear a lot.

You people just don't get it, do you?

horrible comparison,   paypal is a processor of currency not a currency


a more fair comparison is:

Mt. Gox vs Paypal

both freeze funds, and take on a quasi govt roll as their contemptuous disrespect of clients grow

They play strange games with us. Will you ever again use Paypal or MtGox? Me not.

paypal  one day accept bitcoin as a funding option along with CCrds.

I HATE PAYPAPL AND APPLE!

Will never ever use again any Apple product again and will never ever buy anything on ebay again. I bought everything for my businesses from ebay and paid 90 % with paypal - NEVER AGAIN!

I don't give a F... if they change their mind one day because they are losing market shares - I WON'T!

This is my answer to Apple and Paypal - Missing my 100 k each year for ebay purchases and paypal payments!

If necessary I will pay little more on Amazon & Co!

I think they did start this some time ago, because I remember users saying they got banned because of using bitcoins. This isn't something new, they are a treat to paypal at least that is how they see it and they will try to do anything to stop it, even if they can't.

One day yes, but my decision will NEVER change! I hate them deeply!
You can't try to sabotate a technology like that!

Oh my god I haven't read any further then this but want to say to you ASAP

GET YOUR MONEY OUT!!!!

Paypal fucked me to the tune of $1300 because I left it in my account.

i've been wondering if litetree ( a small btc/ltc exchange) recently halting all withdrawels has me wondering if it has anything to do with paypal being up to their rascally old tricks.  They paid out to paypal and sent everyone a vague "we can't pay withdrawels because user bank accounts have been frozen" which doesn't really make sense.  If paypal seized all their client withdrawel to paypal funds it makes sense.  Anyway i got an easy fix for how to screw paypal. Only use bitcoins to buy goods or services.  Only offer goods and services for sale in bitcoins.  Then paypal quickly finds itself not able to do shit, and as dead as the macarena. 

I've sold 17 miners in January (over 70.000 Euro) and had so much trouble and delays only because paypal try to sabotate this business.

I had my account since over 4 years and used ebay same too - PAYPAL EBAY APPLE - NEVER AGAIN!!!

Trying to sabotate me and my business??!! Trying to sabotate a technology for our all best?!?!

I really will never ever use again one of this companies services, products etc.

I HATE PAYPAL!

I HATE EBAY!

I HATE APPLE!

I just sold my iPhone on ebay for bitcoin :)

Anyone want to explain to me how this could be legal?
I don't understand how a company can allow you to sell a legal item (bitcoin miner for example), that does legal things, and then keep your money from the legal sale.
I could understand if ebay banned the sale of any mining rigs or something since they can ban the sale of what they want i'd imagine, but how can they allow you to sell something and then steal your money?
I'm very confused here.

These policies border on racketeering.  Regardless of their terms of service, doing things like that is illegal in some way.

Does anyone know if this is affecting other cryptos? I typically see a lot of doge coin auctions.

I purchases an asic machine off ebay using paypal after the start of this thread.. I guess it is hard for them to monitor every single transaction bt there is shitloads of BTC and crypto stuff on there...

This can't be legal what paypal is doing!

Paypal BELONGS TO EBAY!!!

Allowing selling on ebay, cashing in the selling fees, cashing in the Paypal fees and then trying to kill your business by holding the money without reason!!

All my incoming money on Paypal is now for 45 days locked !!! They called it security reasons!! Can someone believe that????!!!
As soon as everything is handled I will close that shit account on ebay and paypal!!

I HATE EBAY

I HATE PAYPAL

I HATE APPLE


F O R   E V E R ! !
I don't care if they change their minds one day - all my businesses will never use again anything of these companies and my word will be spread !!

If any of you people took the time to read the TOS of the CC companies and the Fin-CEN rules, you would understand.

Ima reprint here a post I put up sometime back, which may help you out:

"MY PAYPAL MANIFESTO: WHY PAYPAL SHOULD NEVER BE USED FOR CRYPTO!

OK, I'm not going to tell you a pack of lies.  I'm only going to tell you the way it is and will substaiante what I say with links to various pages of the Official Paypal website and refer to a couple of Paypal emails which surfaced a while back regarding Paypal's internal policy on cyrptocurrency related transactions.

This is a very long post but I believe that it contains very important information regarding how you are best NOT separated without payment from your hard-earned cyrtocurrency, be it Bitcoin, Litecoin, Feathercoin or whatever happens to be your crypto of the day.

In this post I have attemtped to be as brief as possible while still imparting the main thrust of the information and to provide affirmative substantiation for my position that Paypal should never, ever be used for any kind of cryptocurrency related transaction.

Let us begin!

Examine this link to items excluded from the Paypal Buyer Protection Policy:

https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=JwCcRwwQG2rnG2tklpPM0v4HQPJvF3R4Mxy4BHrkY5xNlCnmkT91!-839210079?locale=en_US&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=C2&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9022&t=solutionTab&ft=browseTab&ps=solutionPanels&solutionId=1229191&isSrch=Yes

Please take careful note (From the citation):

Q: "What types of items are excluded from PayPal Buyer Protection?"

A: " Intangible items, including Digital Goods

(Q): If You Buy Crypto On ebay Are You Covered By Paypal Buyer Protection?:

(A): Yes, when you buy on www.ebay.com you are covered by PayPal Buyer Protection for eligible purchases.

https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=MbyyS1PbtZ8QTtGmKqdGvv0WPXR9jkh5hk2TvvllgbPRG6YwqKpV!-1109887407?t=solutionTab&ft=homeTab&ps=&solutionId=166697&locale=en_US&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=C2&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9022

In short, because Cryptocurrency is a digital item, buyers are NOT elegible for Paypal Buyer Protection!

Now let's take a look at the situation for sellers:

"(Q): What is PayPal Seller Protection?

(A): PayPal Seller Protection is a form of protection that we provide for sellers with a PayPal Account. It is available for eligible payments made through eBay and outside of eBay which involve buyers purchasing through PayPal Accounts in any country.

(Q): What kinds of transactions are not eligible for PayPal Seller Protection?

(A):  Intangible items, including digital goods, travel tickets, gift vouchers and services.
         Items that you deliver in person, including at a physical store."

"Prohibited Activities

You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

(2) relate to transactions involving:

(h) involve currency exchanges ................................."

Let us examine further:

"PayPal requires pre-approval to accept payments for certain services as set out in 6 above and detailed in the chart below."

"Activities Requiring Approval:

"Airlines and scheduled or non-scheduled charters/jets/air taxi operators; collecting donations as a charity or non-profit organization; dealing in jewels, precious metals and stones; acting as a money transmitter or selling stored value cards; selling stocks, bonds, securities, options, futures (forex) or an investment interest in any entity or property; or providing escrow services."

Think that you'll cover yourself as a buyer or seller by writing some kind of "No Chargeback" agreement?


Think again!  Such an agreement is a contract and Paypal Buyer/Seller Protection does NOT cover contracts!:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/contracts.html

"Policy overview

When you list an item that comes with a contract, you're responsible for following the rules of that contract. Since eBay isn't a party to these types of contracts, we don’t review contracts, adjudicate, or take sides in any contract disputes, or enforce terms from third parties restricting the resale of an item.

If you have any questions about your rights under a contract or agreement, get in touch with the company you have the contract with or talk to a lawyer for advice."

Think personal delivery will cover you as a seller or buyer?

Think twice!:

https://cms.paypal.com/c2/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US#7.%20PayPal%20Buyer%20Protection.

"Items which you collect in person, or arrange to be collected on your behalf, including at a retail point of sale."

Oops!  There's another good idea down the tubes!

And last but not least; think you're covered by taking a "Personal Payment" or "Gift" through Paypal?

But NO!

Paypal will not charge back on such transactions but if the Paypal account has been funded by a credit card instead of the Paypal balance or a bank account, the buyer can go back on the seller through the issuing credit card company!

Here's the kicker!

It is against the User Agreement to prohibit payment through Paypal in transactions funded by credit card!

From the Paypal User Agreement:

Prohibited Items:

"Items equivalent to cash, including prepaid or gift cards."

Crypto may be considered by Paypal to be equivalent to cash at any thime and there you go!

https://cms.paypal.com/c2/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US#7.%20PayPal%20Buyer%20Protection.

And FINALLY:

Here are the true skunks in the woodpile!

Emails from Paypal regarding the use of the service for cryptcurrency related transactions:

(1) "Hello [name removed],

We have reviewed your PayPal account and found that you are selling bitcoin mining machines. Per our current Acceptable Use Policy for Money Service Businesses, PayPal may not be used to operate a currency exchange, bureau de change or check cashing business including the sale of bitcoins, bitcoin mining units, and other related bitcoin products.

To continue using your PayPal account, we need some additional information from you. Keep in mind that we have placed a limitation on your PayPal account, and this limitation will remain until we receive and review this information. Please provide us with the following:

• A brief affidavit stating that you understand and will comply with PayPal's terms and conditions. • The type of payments you will send and receive, including the type of goods or services you will accept payments for in the future.

Below you will find suggested affidavit language. Please make sure that the requested affidavit is signed and notarized.

I the undersigned do affirm that I understand and will comply with PayPal's policy regarding the use of PayPal Accounts to sell e-currency, such as bitcoins, bitcoin mining units, and other related bitcoin products. I understand that PayPal may not be used to sell e-currency, such as bitcoins, bitcoin mining units, and other related bitcoin products. I further affirm that any further detected violation of the policy may result in the immediate closure of, or restriction to access to the account.

Please log in to your account and go to the Resolution Center to find out what you need to do. Your account will remain limited until the issue is resolved.

Additionally, in the future, if we find that your account is selling bitcoin products, we will need to sever our business relationship with you.

We look forward to hearing from you and thank you for choosing PayPal as your business partner.

Sincerely, Mike PayPal Compliance Department PayPal, an eBay Company

Please do not reply to this email address as it is not monitored and we will not receive your response. You can get in touch with us by clicking "Contact Us" at the bottom of any PayPal page.

Copyright © 1999-2013 PayPal. All rights reserved."

Paypal Official Policy on Bitcoin related transactions:

(2) "Clarification on Bitcoin merchants using PayPal 6/10/2013 8:58 AM (-05:00) Impacted market: EMEA
We’ve received a number of escalations regarding Bitcoin merchants using PayPal. Any merchant seeking to sell or buy Bitcoins with PayPal is operating as a financial exchange. Please be aware that Financial Exchange merchants are prohibited unless pre-approved by PayPal. This process involves getting VP approvals from both Risk and Compliance, and only licensed financial institutions are considered.
Merchant contacts
If we receive contacts on Bitcoin sales, instead of escalating further, kindly advise customers that they need to be licensed financial institutions to be considered for approval. However, there are some acceptable cases, as outlined below.
Acceptable Bitcoin business models for PayPal
Merchants with a business model that is related to Bitcoin but does not sell Bitcoins may be acceptable. For example: Merchants offering Bitcoin education packages Merchants selling computer hardware designed specifically for mining Bitcoins. In this case, kindly ensure that the merchant isn’t pre-selling and actually has the equipment ready to deliver.
Please note – All Bitcoin-related e-commerce should be considered high risk."

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1g23w2/paypal_email_to_employees_policy_regarding_bitcoin/

Paypal can lock up BOTH the seller and buyer accounts for up to 180 days on the basis of "suspicious transactions"!

In short.........................

DO NOT USE PAYPAL FOR ANYTHING CONNECTED WITH CRYPTOCURRENCY IF YOU WANT TO GET PAID AND STAY PAID!

My $.02.

Thank you for reading!"

I left paypal a long time ago because they were such idiots.

For those looking for alternatives, you can sell / buy / send / receive money through Amazon Pavements as well. I haven't had any trouble with them.

I was going to sell something on ebay today, not anymore :(  
Thank dutchman, interesting post.
Still don't understand how keeping the money is legal though.  
Paypal has no authority to seize your money.  If a party breeches a contract, the other party cannot just take their shit without court approval.  Where in your agreement with paypal does it say they can take your money if you violate the sellers agreement?    

On a positive note this means paypal is officially recognizing bit coin as currency lol.  

I have placed a miner on ebay to sell (see what happens)

I have NOT put on I accept BTC as Payment so will see if this could be the reason why they are doing what they are !!

lol, i love the sarcasm here ;)

getting scared they are ;D

You are right master Yoda!

yesterday the ceo of ebay said on Bloomberg paypal works on an online wallet which would be able to hold multiple crypto currencies...

Paypal has always sort of been a corporate mafia not what the founders intended by any stretch but changes in its philosophy over time

The CEO of paypal has claimed to be a supporter of bitcoin and yet paypal is so adamantly against bitcoin...? Both odd and disappointing.  :-\

FUCK YOU Paypal - my you rot in HELL!!!!!!!

No it makes perfect sense, it's all a dog and pony show, judge by their actions not words. If the ceo/paypal comes out strongly against btc, everyone will cry foul and anti-competitive practices. So they make news headlines and publicly say they are strong supporters etc.., but in reality their policies are one of the worst and most strict against btc.

I am not an isolated case, it is crystal clear their company wide policy is perm ban if you sell anything btc related - warn then ban no appeal no question, this essentially shuts down btc in one of the dominate online market place.  It doesnt take a genius to figure out why, if btc becomes popular paypal simply cannot charge their 3.5% transaction fee = death.

One of the worst companies out there.

i have been buying and selling miners on ebay using paypal for the last 4 weeks including 3 sells and 2 buys in the last week or 2 weeks and i have had absolutely no problems so I'm not sure where all this is coming from.

Just because it didnt happen to YOU yet doesnt mean it is not happening, what an ignorant statement.

Miner hardware is a gray area, they were banning then backtracked from the backlash as they cannot justify banning mining hardware sales but allow graphic cards. Now noone knows what the policy is on hardware, but on btc physical or otherwise it is clear - zero tolerance.

Also it largely depends on your sales transaction $, everything is automated. As i said many times earlier if you bothered to read, once the system flags your account from a combination of selling btc related items + high transaction $ + unknown criteria, your account will be limited and forwarded to human review. If you are lucky, it's the compliance dept where they make you jump through hoops signing documents and affidavits before restoring your account. But if you are flagged by the risk dept, you just get banned permanently, no appeal.

As long as you stay under the radar and dont get flagged by the system (by keeping transaction $ low) you are fine, once you do, things will move very quickly against you.

some big companies should start making a "paypal-like" exchange for bitcoin. how i wish bitmit is still alive to go against ebay :(

FWIW i have sold something in the region of maybe 3000gbp's worth of hashing power for cex.io on ebay with no warnings from paypal or anything. though just today ebay pulled the remaining listings i had up before i intended to re-up my quantity of GHS on cex. they stated listings were pulled as selling of digitally delivered goods are against policy. i see alot of other listings have disappeared also so maybe an ebay wide thing going on.. all good though because if i wish to continue i can simply physically send out the voucher codes which kills two birds with one stone, it sorts out ebays issue on digital delivery and also will stop these stupid scamming motherfuckers trying to say their purchase was an unauthorised transaction (incidentally AFTER the vouchers have been redeemed wouldnt you know).

luckily i expected some people to try and be cute and do something like this so i am now using my new paypal account while my old one sits in a negative balance as its tied to my old bank account (switched banks due to rediculous bank fees) which is essentially now closed and not allowing paypal to debit from that account, that along with removing the credit card i had up as a backup funding source means a big fuck you to paypal if they think they can hold or take my money on a whim when i have supplied what the people have purchased. that negative balance can sit there for the rest of eternity of they dont credit it back to me and discipline the 4 scammers currently trying their luck. good job i was sending all money to my other account after every transaction thinking someone would eventually try and pull a scam.

They pulled them because the scammers are going crazy on anything bitcoin related, including mining contracts.  I lost over $1k and are still getting Paypal reversals.  Each morning I check my inbox and am prepared to groan at the next 'unauthorized' dispute.

I reported every scammer and also contacted as many sellers as I could (daily limit on contacting sellers sucks, but used multiple accounts).  Got many of them to report other fraudulent ebay buyers and maybe between that and all of the Paypal disputes it got their attention.

Or maybe ebay read some of the ebay/paypal community forums because I haven't been quiet about how Paypal screws sellers.  Even with 10 lines of evidence Paypal would rule in buyer's favor.  Seller takes all the risk.  This has killed the secondary in-game currency / virtual goods market too.

yea no shortage of scammers tbh..

i  havent been hit too bad as of yet though there are about 27 sold items still awaiting feedback, some as far back as the 31st of last month. i was also getting repeat buyers so i started making people leave feedback for previously bought/redeemed codes before sending out the next one which got it down a little. the way i have been lucky enough to work the paypal account i was using will mean any potential chargebacks wont come out of pocket as paypal cant debit my old bank account so for the time being i have stopped selling while ebay kills off the remaining GHS listings and once theyre all gone ill use my business paypal account for payments and ill relist my GHS and physically post the codes out by recorded delivery which should both shut ebay up and ensure if anyone tries to dispute via paypal ill have proof of delivery to the registered paypal address. ill also not be selling to anyone without a confirmed address..

this will kill sales of small amounts of GHS though as a recorded letter costs X amount and on small amounts of GHS the postage/envelope/paper cost will outweigh the cost of the GHS so ill probably not sell anything under 1GHS once i start relisting. it may boost sales of multiples of a given amount though as i can do postage discounts on buying more at one time as ill be able to add additional codes to the same envelope and it wint significantly increase the letters weight.

Keep up with buying and selling on egay and I'm sure you'll find out the hard way!

My $.02.

;)

Cancelled my Paypal account and told them that I am a Bitcoin user and there is apparently a conflict. I turned over a 6-digit amount since I have it, none of it Bitcoin related. They don't seem to care.

I can only recommend to ditch them, Bitcoin user or not.

will do crotchity old man!!

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....................................

That should be "C-R-O-T-C-H-E-T-Y" there Junior and if you are going to try to insult your betters, at least learn to spell!

And by the way, I am not "crotchity" or "crotchety"; I am just one shit-ton smarter than you could ever hope to be!

http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab347/krepke/english-motherfucker-shakespeare-en.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/krepke/media/english-motherfucker-shakespeare-en.jpg.html)

And.....................................................................

...you may take that "old man" shit and put it where the Sun doesn't shine!

My $.02.

;)

Paypal is specifically targeting Bitcoin.  As soon as the word Bitcoin comes up, chargebacks are INSTANT and undisputable by the seller. I learnt the hard way that 6 months of localbitcoins feedback doesnt mean shit.

Now just to get his info so I can waste even more money sending a goon to his hovel.

Paypal is needing more competition.
It's tough when they are such a clear #1 in online payments.

I was bidding on some Bitcoin, too.  I checked it this morning and all my "buying" activity was gone.  I was wondering if the seller just cancelled the activity, but a ban on BTC seems more likely.  Now I can't find any BTC sellers on e-bay.

yea but i meanpaypal should look at it as a way to make money. if they accepted it as a payment option they could make a lot off of that. i think they should think of it that way then banning it

I smell fear.

FTFY

I haven't used PayPal much since 2009, and quit altogether, last year.

Last one year i did not used paypal. Before that also i just used for purchasing from ebay. Now we can pay through bank, so i would not worry much.

WHy to use PayPal if you've got bitcoin :)

It may have something to do with this:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1d09zg/paypals_director_says_that_theyre_considering/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1d09zg/paypals_director_says_that_theyre_considering/)

I am not vouching for the accuracy of the information.

lol paypal ... who is still using that? ... paypal is expensive, complicated, slow and they treat you like a child. The age of peternalism should be over. Paypal is history and they know it.

Paypal's market cap is $72 billion, compare to a $6 billion market cap for bitcoin.   When bitcoin's market cap can dwarf that, then you can say that.

Seriously? Who the hell cares about paypal!

I feel sorry for those caught in the crossfire... that sucks.

But, Paypal is crap. It's unnecessary and costs too much.

I love the smell of fear in the morning because fear means there is money out there someplace.

Scared money.

I love it!

My $.02.

;)

Market cap of Ebay is $ 72 b. That of Paypal is much lower.

Fuck PayPal. Fuck them.

I've had SO much shit from this shitty company;  including them taking £100 from me after they took it upon themselves to decide that a transaction was fraudulent (against both mine and the buyer's wishes). Fuck them. As a seller you are completely shafted and at the whim of whomever you are selling to of chargebacks. I avoid them at all costs now.

If logic is not an opinion, this shame should finally be over!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557184.0

That post is 11 months old, they sure are not moving fast....

I sold my first mining contract on eBay yesterday, buyer paid with PayPal, no problems yet. The word "Bitcoin" was all over the auction, including that they could pay with Bitcoin if they desired....

I don't believe they are targeting Bitcoin because of FinCEN, I agree they are targeting Bitcoin because it scares the hell out of them.

just received this:

We removed the following listing(s):
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Unsecure payment methods that don't ensure safe online shopping for both buyers and sellers aren't allowed on eBay. Because we are unable to verify whether the correct person receives payment, instant or point-to-point money transfer services are not allowed.

To learn more about accepted payment methods, go to:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/accepted-payments-policy.html

Thanks,

eBay

Please don't reply to this message. It was sent from an address that doesn't accept incoming email.

funny that the cash is allowed.

Bitcoin is easier than paypal. Paypal is not going to last, they will have to change bussiness model  :)

Such bastards!

that sounds like something a poker player would say. You play on SWC?

No but I was told this by my old Squarehead Kraut Grandfather(B.1897) and he never led me astray.

I prefer to play Baccarat but do play other games as well from time to time.

My $.02.

;)

I have never had a problem.

I sold all sorts on ebay with Paypal.

I sold around £1500 worth of mining contracts and around £7000 worth of mining rigs with Paypal over the last 3 months.

The only thing I have had an issue with is Gumtree, deleting my ads for containing the word bitcoin.

Except that Paypal is used for actual purchases and not speculation, when Bitcoin surpasses Paypal in legit number of transactions per second then you could say that.

Both Bitcoins and PP have their own advantages and disadvantages. Paypal is affected by high service charge and currency conversion charges, as well as frequent account freezes. But it is considered relatively safe and secure.

On the other hand, Bitcoin is cheaper and easier to use. But you have to worry about some one stealing your coins all the time.

Paypal is not gonna last? Sources, links, facts, arguments to back it up? That's just an empty statement. Lots of people use Paypal, and as long as they do, it's gonna last.

Is it even ok for them to ban it ?

Paypal taxes every transaction tho

Seems like their Terms of Service is on their side about the matter.

Paypal is an absolute fucking joke and a ponzi scheme. 

The faster they go down, the better. We need more people to use Bitcoin for online transactions and more merchants to accept Bitcoin.

Fiverr.com is already accepting Bitcoin and it works EXTREMELY well on their site.  I pay for all my fiverr transactions with Bitcoin and all my hosting as well.

The solution to destroying Paypal is simply not to use it. 

....
Elaborate on why they're a Ponzi scheme? I get that you don't like Paypal for obvious reasons but you can't just call them whatever you like.

glad i dont need paypal. been sick of their tackets for years

Heard that too! how Paypal could be a ponzi scheme, really?

I don't think he knows what a Ponzi is. Literally no way you could interpret their service as a ponzi.

I took PayPal to court and beat their ass just 2 weeks ago.

I sold a mining rig on EBay for $1,200.
Buyer claimed it didn't work.
I included screenshots of bfgminer working just fine, thank you very much.
I tried an extensive amount of tech support with him, he finally told me to go to hell and couldn't figure it out.
Guy files a claim with PayPal claiming "not as described" 2 months later.
They took purchase price out of my account.
Guy ships it back to me.
It works great.
I sold it on EBay again for $300.
New buyer is happy.  Works fine.

I took PayPal to small claims court in San Jose, CA (down the street from their office).
Judge ordered them to pay me the difference of $900.
Yesterday they paid.

glad you won  fact of the matter is they could have asked the judge to rule on the mediation/arbitration clause in the TOS just to screw you around for more months   

clearly you were not asking for much and lost a lot, paypal needs to be hit with a REAL suit with all of the bells and whistles attaches like punitive damages and temporary injunctions

they simply do too many arbitrary and capricious things systemically, then have little devil employees that love to screw customers over, over and above the system mandated screwing of customers (mainly sellers). 



 

Yes, but how much did it cost you, fees etc?

i personally don't really trust them, you never know when your account will get suspended and they'll find reason for what. You must read their T.O.S. carefully before using them. Some people are fine with using them. So it's like a luck thing? phew..

Small claim court in Canada is VERY accessible. (max amount of around 10k depending on which province)

Very easy to sue them there.

What would be the context of the suit then?

Depends on the case...

If they froze your money, well you can ask to be paid. If they stole your money via bs chargebacks and bs fees you can ask for that etc.

Filing fee  -$30
Service fee - $15
Judge added them on top - Priceless

Worth it for sure then.

So it's just a personal case of money loss?

Wtf this is so not true information. Any reliable source for this ?

Have you read the thread itself?

A question that remains unanswered is why wouldn't Paypal send an SMS with a verification code when buying BTC or other cryptocurrencies to verify that:
A) You haven't been hacked.
B) This is done truly with your consent.

You certainly can't expect us to be naive enough to believe that it's all just technological limitations.

Then I have a Minus at my paypal balance.... is that that expensive,  I use paypal for take a part at wellbid. wouldn't join with paypal if knowing earlier for that fees etc took that much...
PS: I've heard from some forum that paypal  doesn't  safe anymore. but I'm not really sure for that.

On the front end of the transaction via sms and the backend of the transaction via blockchain a BTC transaction is more secure, documented and SAFE than any other transaction that Paypal does.  This is easily proven, however they don't want to consider anything new because they are already making a tremendous amount of money on what they do.  It doesn't have to be logical it's Paypal.

It gets you troubles sooner or later on. That's one of the reasons why we like bitcoin more  :)

Of course it's not, it's them not wanting to be helpful.

I never use PayPal for any deal about bit coin.

For those looking for alternatives, you can sell / buy / send / receive money through Amazon Pavements as well. I haven't had any trouble with them.

PayPal is also a wallet...

They find BitCoin to be a threat to them because they think BitCoin is the same thing they're doing, so anti-competition measures.

Yes, and it's in their terms of use, of course it's to avoid competition.

They can't be blamed for not wanting competition.
But those of us that support btc and want to see mass future adoption will not support Paypal.
Such is business.

Not wanting competition is OK. Taking anti-competitive action to squash competition is not.

I have the same problems with Paypal: Account is under surveillance because I sold a Miner......unbelievable!

What other money transfer can be used?

PayPal is afraid of the bitcoin.
I used to love PayPal but now.....

it's not even that but their complete lack of clear policy and mafia style enforcement of perm ban. On ebay (which is owned by the same company as paypal) there is a VIRTUAL CURRENCY category to sell, yet when you use paypal to accept payment for a few collectible physical coins, they label you a currency exchange, freeze your money, then perm ban you.  Keep in mind, none of the buyers filed a claim, complaint, or chargeback - they were all happy with the transaction and left positive feedback.  But paypal doesnt care, they just ban you anyway.

Their "risk department" doesnt talk to their "compliance department" and noone talks between ebay and paypal. Right after the compliance dept said i am all clear after making jumping through hoops after hoops of signing and providing every document under the sun, the risk dept comes and bans me.  Even after i showed them the email from their own compliance dept stating my account was cleared, they flat out said sorry that's a different dept not us. WTF dont you all belong to the same company?  And why would you even have a virtual currency or currency category to begin with if selling physical coins get you banned.

It's a cluster**** over there, just pray you fly under the radar and dont get picked up by their automated system, once you do and those humans get involved, you are screwed.

That is nothing specific to PP. Once there is money and power, people get arrogant, Yet worse, power centers attract sociopaths.

I find more and more that I have no need for most of that shit so I do what everybody else should do - I simply walk away. Canceled Paypal already. FB account is orphaned. It is time to P2P everything.

+1000

check http://paypalsucks.com

Paypal has ripped tons of people off over the years and they are too big to stop.  >:(

lol this, maybe they know something that we don't.

I got stung hard on a reversed Paypal payment selling btc on Ebay. I knew the risks at the time so it was my own fault, still made me feel sick to my stomach when I woke up and saw my red negative Paypal balance.

PayPal better stop freezing accounts for nothing, or we can have a crowdfund to sue them!

Any article that we can read about this? I mean official Paypal statement about this.. I dont think Paypal is doing this.

I would happily close my paypal account withdrawing everything from my account now then.I guess i bought some dogecoins recently from my paypal account

What particular bitcoin transaction is that? What if someone bought btc from me and paid thru paypal?

Have you actually read the thread? Did you look at the dates?

Same goes for you also:

This guys is not reading too.  ;D ;D I think paypal has come to terms with btc. But still no official statement about this.

what about this??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF7HxLCFMeY

they say clearly bitcoin in the video !

The post is from Feb 2014. Lot of changes right now.

Withdraw it. You don't need the hassle. From now on do all business only in cryptocurrencies and you should be fine because Bitcoin is awesome about protecting seller rights.

i think paypal is very strict when it comes to sellers..I got a lot of complaints from sellers about paypal

All the difference 8 months can make.  Who knows what the next 8 months will bring?  Amazon???? A country using it officially?  Major a major corporation. 

This post just goes to show how much can change in less than a year that is for sure. Earlier in the year PayPal are banning people for dealing with anything bitcoin and now it seems the are accepting it. Fingers crossed more will happen in less than a year.

Bitcoin doesn't need paypal to evolve , it needs adoption by buyers and sellers arround the world

Anyone experience this kind of problem after bitcoin was "ok-ed" by paypal?

Old story. At least now we already know they will join the league.

Not sure many people would use paypal for bitcoin trade would they? there were more scams with charge backs getting in the way of things vs paypal rejections for trading bitcoin.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

But basically nothing really changes. Just some promises.

What changed? Paypal is still freezing accounts, just like before...

before they didn't know what bitcoin was and feared the technology,
now they know what it is no longer fear it but still see it as an enemy,
an enemy to keep close and stab in the back at every opportunity.

I also heard rumors about this but for now, I think that is more safe to use exchangers, exchange bitcoin to usd, and transfer usd to paypal and withdraw to bank account without any problem.
In this way paypal can't know that origin of this money was from selling bitcoin, so in this case there is no problem with them.
I already did this many times :)

According to Snowden, NSA has an agreement with Paypal, and records all transactions. I feel so safe now... (because I don't use Paypal).

I've had a few chargebacks before selling btc on Ebay but I've never had an account freeze or ban. Would be interesting to know what actually flags an account to be banned, thought they were meant to be getting a bit more btc friendly?

Yes, they are getting more friendly, sometime enemies turn into frienemies.

as for the flag, and freeze, if most of your business was associated with btc that would have likely resulted in a freeze, if the majority of your money held was related to it, again it would could easily get frozen.

Red flags go up any time there is a dispute for any reason at all.

heck, a red flag goes up when you make a refund, if 3% of your sales result in refunds you will likely get a call from paypal, if they are for large values it could result in a freeze

ANYTHING, that fits into the MO of money laundering or drug dealing will easily get red flagged and frozen.   EVEN if the items involved are perfectly legal and everything you are doing is perfectly right.    

Paypal freezes account based on fear, accusation, and preemptive strike force.    After you prove that their fear is misplaced, accusations false, and preemptive strike abusive they they refund your money, if you do it too forcefully they close your account and return the money after 180 days.  

The total amount of creepy behavior by formerly exciting tech companies is increasing exponentially.

Anyone here experiencing paypal problem after its said "acceptance" of bitcoin?

Best thing anyone can do for humanity is to leave Paypal and do not give them any business whatsoever. They're collecting too much information about the users, and they bow to political pressure, and willingly give up any user data when asked to do so.

The just slow down the development of btc but can not stop.

Has anyone ever had their Paypal account unfrozen after using it for BTC related transactions?

Not that I know of
Only thing I saw was this crytonews article that froze and unfroze then refroze account for a while lol which was bollocks apparently
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/ebay-merchant-sue-paypal-anti-bitcoin-policies/

Terrahasher
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=402405.msg4417493#msg4417493

Got a scammer rating  ;D

If you want a person to be rated as scammer, you should call bitcoinpolice.

the op, I think I remember that a couple pages into the thread

I can't understand how and why someone would use paypal to sell btc.

The only thing I can think of is ignorance.

that's narrow thinking

When ebay allowed btc to be sold in 2013 they sold like crazy and rates went through the roof.     The same thing happened for dogecoin on a lessor scale because by then too many scams took place with btc so ebay was cracking down  on cryptos.  In short, ebay is a MAJOR resource for crypto sales direct to the customer.  90% of all ebay deals are done with paypal.

Additionally, if you have multiple income streams and paypal is one of them it would be great sometimes to just use your balance to get what you want instead of transfering it to a bank to access many days later.   

The bottom line is anything of liquid value should be able to travel from one liquid asset to another with little resistance.   There's not good reason why I have to reroute my paypal funds to my bank, then Coinbase (for btc) to Cryptsy to buy EMC2,  I should be able to used my paypal account to by EMC2 directly for someone that wants to sell EMC2 and willing to accept paypal.

Re. the OP's post, is this still legit/valid?  Is paypal still bending over btc or trying to now work WITH it , it seems.......

?

Still valid, and things are getting worse.

On Nov 18, according to new user agreement, Paypal will allow chargebacks to be filed up to 180 days after a purchase. If you follow the forums on Ebay & Paypal, chargeback & other scams by buyers are getting much worse. They (PP & Ebay) are forcing sellers to eat the costs of these scams.

This is partly due to the collapsing economy around the world. There are a lot of smart people that can't find decent jobs, so they are turning to fraud to make money. This, of course, is only making things worse as legitimate sellers have to either raise prices to compensate for fraud or quit selling products with small profit margins.

The new user agreement does forbid returns for virtual products (including cryptocurrency), but this won't hold up when the buyer claims their credit card or paypal account was compromised.

Openbazaar is going eliminate buyer fraud. Seller fraud may be a problem at first, but this will simply make name recognition much more important.

 

Part in red, very astute observation, analysis, and conclusion, I agree.      This is the whole problem with the CC industry, which is full of frustrated geniuses that can't get a regular job so they figure out how to cause harm to a perceived competitor.   

Good points, thanks.  Wow yeah I have noticed the downstream trickle effect from seeing this kind of poor practice by pp/ebay over the years, it's only become worse to deal with them, cost me MORE money and I've noticed a lot more scam activity there.  I'm sure they "do their best" to keep consumers safe but if anything, it seems to have the opposite effect. 

Any kind of openbazaar/decentralized marketplace that REALLY works would be epic.