Bitcoin Forum

Ok the HODL bullshit has gone long enough.

What it boils down to is the price of Bitcoins has risen to such an extent that most people can't afford them. (notice the plural here guys!)
This results in the current situation: Everybody is sitting on their capital gains and spam the HODL bullshit all over the forum in the hopes that other people don't realize their gains. From this perspective it even makes sense to spam the forum with HODL you are currently in the process of liquidating. Withdraw limits from the exchanges make it necessary to keep the charade up as long as possible.

Will Bitcoins be even more expensive in the future? Possibly.
Does the HODL bullshit have anything to do with it? Certainly not.

That's some hubris you've got there, telling me (part of everybody) why I am involved with Bitcoin.

Inevitably, this hubris will collapse. ;)

Damn straight I aint buying these expensive sons of bitches. But everyone else should cos they are going to the moon.

Out of context it certainly looks that way.

So whats the problem then ? We need to accept that some spartans will mine and then destroy their private keys ...

lol

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/86637/this-is-sparta-o.gif

I may be wrong... but I think your post is telling everyone to ........


HODL!!!!!!!!

But about the price I really want to see how its going to be after all that new miners and hash power been delivered

What is the context? The speculation forum? Speculation and idealism aren't mutually exclusive! :)

I sometimes wonder if some people around here have ever invested in anything other than bitcoin.  The gains made last year are practically unheard of in anything else ever.  If my mutual funds make 20% in a year, that is a very good year.

You don't have to hold 1BTC. The thing is people dont like 0.997664BTC, they want at least 1BTC. That is why it appears to be so expensive !

well damn, considering I've lost every time I've sold, it seems pretty reasonable to me at this point to hold, or hodl or whatever.

I'd be glad to buy more if it dips considerably, but in the meanwhile, I'm holdering

Just like people not wanting $0.997664M. They want at least $1M.

 ::)

Hodlers will get burned:

https://i.imgur.com/sfrkEPf.png

"What it boils down to is the price of ounces of gold has risen to such an extent over the past decade that most people can't afford them (notice the plural here guys!)"

I guess this depends on what timescale you're talking about. A quick scalding is quite different from a Joan of Arcing.

Most people who actually matter can afford them just fine.  They are still dirt cheap.  It is a problem to these folks, however, that a fair fraction of the currency base is held by small-time peons who's grip on their hodlings only tightens with each of the successive waves of valuation increases.  Cry me a river.

I think on a bigger scale than you do. dont be such a know it all, because you cant predict every swing. afterall, we are talking about bitcoin, and the best traders make money in the long run not the short run.

why do you hodl fiat? why dont you try day trading forex.....? cos you will loooooseee

This all depends on time frame. It is easy for the 2011 heads to preach holding. For those that got in 80000% later, it's a bit different. I never had six figures to put into bitcoin. I am up over 50x over buy-and-hold, and if I bought and held, I would have very little skin in this game. Fuck that.

"You" will lose? No -- the ones who preach holding are confident that "they" will lose.

I dont know how small forex traders makes any profits ... they trade with minimal information (half order book) ... and against professionals blackbox and network hardware ( such as TCP/IP offload engines, http://www.bittware.com/media-center/video-library/financial-applications-overview , etc  ) sometimes they need to trade against their own broker ... the time they see price info ... loads of action already happened .. LoL ... I would prefer put my money on Shatoshi dice ;D

The context of the rest of my post.

Just for you: everbodymost people spamming HODL, I don't say all of them, necessarily there might be a few who do it for various other reasons, but when it comes down to it, on the subconscious level I think it is true for the vast majority.

I prefer HOADR if you want to engage in a childish misspelling meme.

Buy. Hold. Buy more. Hold. Repeat.

Spend only when necessary.

Paper wallets FTW.

I don't.

I think you have a fair point here, but don't forget about the people, who don't want to "realize" any capital gains into fiat, because they have grown to trust BTC more than fiat. So they would rather have a big chunk of their long-term wealth parked in BTC than to sell part of it and do...what exactly with it? Personally unless I need some funds for unforeseen expenditures or BTC appreciates so much that it becomes an uncomfortably large portion of my net wealth I see no reason to sell. Spending it is another matter, though.

What's interesting about this thread that now people start defending HODL bullshit spammers who aren't even engaged in this practice but are behind the same ideology. Or is it because you just have to respond to everything I post? ;)

IMO if you are not holding enough coins to make a serious profit buy selling and buying again when price is potentially lower, it isn't even worth the headache of selling and then trying to time the market well enough to make sure you can compensate for the fees and all to make a profit by buying slightly more coins than the ones you sold....


Makes more sense just to try and keep your dollar cost average as low as possible, and try and purchase more on the dips...

You too, what I am saying is that even those people subconsciously have the same issue. Either way I doubt many of them posted "HODL" even once.

Yes, another ad hom thread! My favorite  ::)

I think I'll bump it to add to its legitimacy.  8)

HODL is a meme the inspires courage during outbreaks of FUD.  However, I don't think too many people (of those that have been here a while) are literally hodling all their coins.  Otherwise, many would be sitting on a portfolio > 95% in bitcoins.  I can't imagine a 28 year old with $5,000 in the bank and $400,000 in bitcoins sleeping well at night.  Some diversify into cash, some into gold, and others into yellow Lamborghinis.    

But you don't want to diversify too much!  If you keep selling half your coins, you quickly end up with very few, and this is equally bad for your health.   Risto has done some nice work with his SSS divestment plan: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345065.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345065.0).  If you now hold a large amount of value in bitcoin, by following a simple strategy (divest 10 - 15% each time the price doubles) you can win-small if bitcoin eventually fails, and still win big is bitcoin succeeds.  

I, for one, am HODLING, but I am not out of fiat either. I'm buying the dip.

It just seems like it makes sense to take a hodlistic view of the entire Bitcoin ecosystem.  That's all.  And it's worked for me.

HODL on bro, happy HODLing to you!

What movie was that thing from?   i remember seeing it..it was that one with Matt Damon and Ben Affleck as the angels...was it Dogma?

Im in it for the long run. Im gonna hodl. whats the damn problem? Im not greedy.

Exchange a limited supply currency for an unlimited supply currency? Not really interested unless I'm running out of cash, wait... I can always take a loan... :D

How does it feel if you sell your only Bitcoin and a month later it's $10,000 and you can never afford a Bitcoin again?

Think.

The best way to make money is to ignore the price until the next bubble. If you bought at the peak of this bubble you can't think about selling until the next bubble.

LOL best

You certainly asked the right person.  Bad enough to be highly annoyed at all the hodlers, apparently, as evidenced by this thread.  Poor e-mucus :(

It just means "I'm too dumb and/or lazy to trade". Everyone should hodl sometimes, you can't day tard 24/7. Hodling is not a great long term strategy, might as well delete your keys & give up, but there's a time for it, like when you just missed your opportunity to sell before the price dropped.

Hodling simplifies ones books.  That can be important if a guy turns, say, $10k into $1M within a few years and decides that it just makes the most sense to pay taxes.  It's also a lot easier, especially since it is not trivial to design a truly robust framework for maintaining control of private keys.

I'm sure that there are traders who had better performance that this, but I'm sure that there were many more who did not.  Successful trading requires that there are a large contingent of people who are more stupid than oneself in the game.  I can sympathize  with you if that is the source of your frustration and the driving force behind your post ;)

Hodling is a way of saying "I believe this thing has a potential to go way up, long term, and I prefer to stay away from the risks and the troubles of day trading".

And you know what? No matter what you, EM, say over here, no matter if the price changes anywhere within the +- 80% of the current one, I still believe this thing has a potential to go up, and I still don't want to get involved with day trading. "HODL!!!" is a battle cry, to cope with emotional aspects of this long-term strategy. Because it does feel scary sometimes, but these feelings have nothing to do with the strategy or reality, they are inherited from the apes who were trained by predators into short-term thinking. With that being said,

HODL!!!1

This is entirely right.
And what I have pointed out is just the subconscious or suppressed emotional aspect of that "battle cry". It happens to cope with the requirement of inaction, because the only action possible would be contrary to the chosen strategy/ IE to sell.

Yes, absolutely.  Time and time again, people here seem to think that psychology plays no factor.  

It's absolutely the case that the high valuation of BTC dissuades a large number of people from investing.  How do we know this? Because I hear/see comments like this all the friggin' time!

Edit:  Why do you think we see price tags like $999.99 instead of $1,000? 

When people stop defending hodling - this will be the mark that we can be close to the bottom.

Not quite. Buy, sell, and hodl - all 3 possible short-term strategies are technically available to me. Buying would increase the risks, though, and selling at this point is pointless. So I choose to hodl.

People demanding that you sell are like bullies demanding your lunch money, give them a bloody nose and tell them to fuck off.

So you're saying we'll see $2 again? Sweet!!!

+1

Practically you can, probably if you aren't some high tier management type only sell - in any amount that matters, if you got in somewhat recently.

Oh and please pay attention to the debate, to avoid out of context quoting.

lol who 'demands' anything?

thats pretty much what I see everytime someone saying its time to sell. if it does "crash" im not contributing to it... I have every hope btc will be widely used someday so I buy on every dip I can, but see no reason to sell any bitcoin Ive painstakingly gathered for a currency I dont have a ton of confidence in. I can buy less and less each year with my dollar, and people can buy more and more each year with bitcoin. that is the only chart someone should really need to base a judgement on. I sure hope to see these low $ coins though, if I could buy a few coins up quick an easy for cheap Id count myself lucky just like everyone else.

To paraphrase Coinpharmer:

"I can buy less and less each year with my Argentinian Peso, and I can buy more and more each year with my Bitcoin"

ALL SIGNS POINT TO HODL

Each year since 2014?

Or is this one of your sockpuppet accounts BitcoinAshley?

The HODL strategy means:

1. "i don't want to have the total loss risks involved in transferring my coins, trusting an unregulated offshore entity, and holding the coins on a website where they can be stolen, etc"

2. "i want to lead a normal live without having to stare at charts, follow news, lose sleep, neglect social relationships, and not be able to live in the moment."

3. "I'm not an expert trader and don't want to bother becoming one. I'd rather trust the long term trend where i have 0 chance of making an error in trading. If i trade i might lose coins."

To hodl means you are content with only 1000% gain per year. To trade means the long term trend bores you and you want to do the work to try to make more (for example my 30,000% gain in 2013).To trade also means that in the event of a total collapse of the btc system, you MIGHT have something left to show for it. However, most hodlers aren't worried about that scenario.

Both strategies are valid and there are people for each strategy.

I respect the hodl strategy. However, i don't think hodlers should take an attitude and insult traders or call them stupid for selling. We should just respect eachother and have peace, and have more meaningful content in the forum.

Sadly, I have no sockpuppet accounts. I was just paraphrasing somebody else, which should have been obvious when I started my post with "To PARAPHRASE blahblah..."

I've held bitcoin in 2012, 2013, and 2014. I've sold bitcoins in 2012, 2013, and 2014. And I've bought bitcoins in 2012, 2013, and 2014. You know, just to clarify things a lil. Because in another post I said that I haven't bought any in over 6 months, in another I've said I put my entire paycheck into it every month and use it for 90% of my expenses, another I said I've been selling for a year, another where I said I never sell and never plan on selling, another where I said I liquidated my BTC stash and went all-in on DOGE, etc etc etc... this is the internet, remember.

HODLing is for those that tried trading (whether short term or long term, it doesn't matter really) and failed. So they justify their irrationality by acting like everything is OK while their holdings lose value daily. They are fooling themselves... I mean, if you tell yourself the same thing everyday, nay 100x every day, you would begin to believe it too!

What TERA said makes sense too, but I like mine :P

Great bullet points (snipped) about HODLers.  As one myself, I concur.


If someone tries to be a trader in the Bitcoin ecosystem between 2011 and now in 2014 (and probably into the foreseeable future) WITHOUT insider information and visibility into non-public data sources, they are quite naive (to be diplomatic) and likely won't be a trader for long.  This is not even completely idle conjecture on my part as are most of my other assertions, but I'll not comment further than that.  This is a simple fact of life in a non-regulated market.  Anyone who lost money trying to trade who was unaware of this can now start to understand why they ended up losers.

Where do you get that?  ???  ;)

What baloney, trading Bitcoins is easy as fuck. Just compare how real markets look like on real currency pairs in the forex market.

Trading alts is very hard though.

Is there a public address to confirm this?

Satoshi HODLs all of his 1 million BTC  8)

Except that daytrading is idiotic: you can't time the market, and if you think otherwise, you've just been lucky thus far.

Some would say bible thumping is idiotic, but they don't have to say it in every thread

Yep! Because there is absolutely no skill involved with what we do  ::)
If you don't believe in it, then just go back to the HODL corral.

many traders day trade. the successful ones have a backlog winners that statistically proves their capability to trade smaller swings. They are rare and they get paid a lot by banks.
yes you can day trade, but not everyone can day trade.

See this is the bullcrap I was trying to address in the last bullet of my post. I know hodling is a good strategy but when you start saying that trading is impossible or that traders are dumb then you are going too far. There is no need for this. Just because YOU can't trade doesn't mean it's impossible. In fact bitcoin is the EASIEST asset to trade of any asset, stock, or commodity! There is so much volatility, so many sheep, so many primitive EMA bots, and such a lack of professional market makers that the users of exchanges practically hand you their coins! I have multiplied my coins by 100 in the past year doing trading. Did I do that with luck?

Shut up and take my coins!

Its time to HOADR

m8, we all know u are lying

theres no point in exaggerating by fucking miles

Bitcoin is so volatile that that would definitely be plausible.

There are some people that would not sell because they don't have what to do with fiat.

Who? Perhaps you'd prefer linden dollars?

Such foresight.  8)

Yeah but hodlers didn't get burned... They got 102 USD bitcoins  :)  ;)

The sodlers didn't get that opportunity  ;D

If you hold you dont have fiat to buy?
Recovery of the whole gox monday drop is incredible fast, will we continue to 800 in the next days?

Day trading in normal stock markets is often made very difficult by a combination of high transaction fees and low volatility.  You have to be extremely lucky and be playing with large amounts of money to come out ahead.

Bitcoin day trading is much easier because of the low transaction fees and high volatility.  Even if one trade goes bad, you just need a bit of patience to catch up.  No matter what strategy you used last year, you would have made money, whether that was Elliot Wave theory or astrology.  The only losing move was not to play. 

Making money in 2014 could be harder, maybe not.  It would be very interesting (at least to me) to set up a fantasy crypto trading league to explore the validity of various strategies and their applicability in crypto markets.

So true. Online stock trading costs from 4-10 USD per trade. Absolutely insane  ::)

I am HODORING.

Winter is coming.

And some people would say ignoring the Bible is idiotic (choosing to burn in hell for all eternity?!?) but we also don't say it in every thread...  ;)

So people that ignore Bible are doomed to burn in hell and we should warn them in every thread?