Bitcoin Forum

This will be the official bitcointalk thread for updated information and discussion related to my nxt silver bullion gateway.

Roadmap:
1)Get a tumbler which will allow me to polish my bars to a mirror shine.
2)Get a stamping machine and a stamp with a unique emblem.
3)Figure out international shipping situation.
4)Begin refining silver scrap.
5)Move onto gold.
6)Begin refining gold.
7)tbd

Think these priorities are out of whack? Perhaps certain items on the list should be in a different order? Leave some feedback and let me know what new features are most important to you.

reserved

hey Anon136 - just swa this new thread - need to get going now, will get back tomorrow .. cheers, l8orre

Nice, looking forward to this!

Hi Anon,

I like the idea very much. There are a view things that I like more than Nxt, one of them is silver. One of the most undervalued assets right now.

I don´t like silver shot, I would prefer off brand silver.

So great idea Anon, I hope this get´s an sucessfull rollout! Would be very interested.

Interesting idea. Please let us know the update on this one :)
Tuning into the thread.

2646385689141496300

thanks

!smart idea!
keep us updated ;)

got 1 vote for off brand. anyone else have any input on that matter?

I vote for off brand also. Sounds like an interesting idea.

Great , look forward to see more updated info

Does the off brand include the coins of other countries like Panda silver coins?

I would vote for shot since it can make it look like an ETF (maybe gold ETF in the future) and will be easy to price and trade.

That would be awesome!

I vote off brand as well.

I vote 1oz rounds.

The more I think about it the more I think that I'm just going to do both with separate instruments. The impact that this would have on the market depth seems like the smallest drawback. Additionally this will give me the option of adding pandas and eagles at some point in the future. Also this will make it so that people can send me any kind of silver in the mail and I will be able to issue instruments proportional to what they send me.

I hope silver shot becomes the deepest most liquid market if I do this because that would give us the most accurate price for an ounce of silver. This is going to be awesome guys if you help me to make a deep and liquid market here than we will be able to offer much more realistic silver prices than the manipulated NYMEX. It could even become a better resource for dealers to price their merchandise.

When time comes, I will have 10,000 pieces, thank you very much!  ;D

lol its going to take a while to build up a pile like that. if people actually buy 10,000 instruments from me than ill probably start looking at getting a out of home location for my business. Maybe a disused bank? how cool would that be!

Great idea Anon. Will this be mostly for trading or can we take delivery?

Oh absolutely you will be able to take delivery. You wont even have to worry about paying me for shipping or anything it will be all built in. I will charge for shipping when i issue the asset so if you go onto the market and buy one of the tokens all you will have to do is send it to my nxt address with a message specifying where you would like the bullion to be delivered and I'll ship it out the next day. It will be that simple and seamless. Though i should mention that I will be shipping to the US only at least at first. Dealing with customs will make things much more difficult so it may be something that i do later but definitely not at first.

Great! When you begin to ship internationally, I'll be very keen. BTW, why limit to silver only? If you can offer gold, you'll get really high volume of trade measured in NXT.

Edit: Offering gold will help the so called whales cash out without adding selling pressure on NXT/BTC pair.

Wow!  This sounds awesome!

The simple answer is that I don't presently own enough gold to act as reserve. I think I own something like 1.5 troy ounces of gold total. It is something i want to do but ill have to work my way up. I'll buy a few ounces of gold to start with then issue the assets. Sell the nxt that i get for those assets for bitcoin. Then sell the bitcoin for gold and issue new assets. That will be a process and it will take time to build up sufficient reserve to have a liquid market.

Hey 2kool, do you mind if I advertise my business twice per day in your "NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information" thread?

Be my guest.  It's not "my thread".  It's the community's thread.

Gold would be much more popular than silver for EU countries because there's no VAT on it (no custom duties also). There's VAT on silver (up to 25% in some countries) which kills any profitability and most of the interest.  

Its probably better that specialists arise to fill the niche in each region. It doesn't make a lot of sense for you to pay international shipping to have me ship my gold to europe when someone else trustworthy located in europe could issue his own instruments and you could buy his and redeem his instead. I have this idea of maybe making a federation with members in different parts of the world but that would be a project for the future.

Shipping costs are almost identical between eu countries and eu countries <-> usa, about 30% difference. For something as dense as gold the difference doesn't matter at all.  

If I could prepare customs forums before hand, like by printing them off for example, rather than having to sit there and fill them out by hand at the post office than I would probably change my position on international shipping.

Anon,

I buy pamp suisse all the time.

And a big +1 on promoting your gateway on the main thread... it will show people Nxt has traction and momentum (and you're a cool guy that deserves [and has earned] the promotion!)

Thankyou for the words of support and encouragement  :)

Why?

Anon, what do you think are the cons of shots?

Its less liquid, less portable, a scale is required to determine its value and im not entirely sure how to determine its authenticity. I'm going to have to search around on that last point.

The advantages are that its perfectly fungible, highly dividable, and ill know for sure that its authentic because ill buy it directly from a refinery.

http://www.howtobuysilver.com/types/silver-shot/

Silver shot would probably not be a great way to invest in silver. It wouldnt be great for people who actually wanted to take delivery. But it would be a really good way to denominate a financial instrument. It would be great for the people who wanted to speculate on price without actually taking delivery or find the current price of silver without wanting to take delivery on anything.

maybe ill do the best of both worlds. maybe ill make my own brand of silver bars. ill just buy shot and build my own foundry and make my own bars out of it. i always wanted to get into that anyway and my rep here combined with my business idea may make my bars actually marketable. i could keep cost down and have an inexhaustible supply of perfectly fungible product.

but would the landlords let me build a foundry in the back yard.... hmm i could always ask i guess.

I hope this project doesn't eat all your energy because you are one of the most important people for Nxt.

The way i see it this project it's self will add a lot to next. I'll probably try to expand also and run a BTC gateway. If it really takes off than ill get a MSB license and do a fiat gateway also. All very important things for the long term prospects of nxt.

If you are in the US an MSB is not needed for a bullion company however there are still rules regarding AML and KYC under the Patriot Act.  Basically if you accept a certain amount of cash for bullion or buy certain types of PM from customers then you have to report it.  It is certainly up for interpretation if crypto-currency is like cash or not.  You are supposed to have AML and KYC policies in place for that.
Also if you intend to not fully sell but issue some sort of on demand precious metals certificate you are subject to SEC/ Futures regulations.  You don't want that.  The less regulation way is to provide storage for customers that purchase your bullion but don't take delivery.  Don't call it anything that can remotely be considered a financial instrument.
Good Luck.

off brand pls

hey,

just a hint: in order to show Average Joe how this is going to work it would help to add some information on the procedure and what nxt/ colored coins/ assets have to do with it. maybe this would attract also beginners in that matter.

just my two nxts :)

Very good idea, I vote for off brand!

repost:

All,

People that have running projects other than marketing please let us know what your project is.

We want to have a view on all projects and consider bounty for them.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=453935.new#new


for marketing projects please go here:


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=412243.msg4465984#msg4465984

+1 for off brand

i live in the EU and therefore i vote also for gold because of VAT

+1 off brand

Hi Anon,

it would be great if you would ship the silver also to Europe. We would have to pay VAT anyway. Think about it.

I will promote your silver-gateway also in my Blog.

Best regards

Hi,

this is a interesting idea.
My vote goes to off brand.I live also in the EU.
I will follow this thread.
 

Sounds great, following.

I cant just not let people take delivery. My service would be meaningless if I did that.


but thats exactly how nxt decentralized asset exchange works. same with ripple also for that matter. There is no way around it. So every single person who offers a good or service through the decentralized asset exchange will be subject to SEC/Futures regulations. I can call it a colored token if i want, but the fact is that nxt decentralized asset exchange is a system for exchanging securities.

Some words in German about this Project:
http://altcoinspekulant.wordpress.com/2014/02/09/nxt-zu-silber-physisches-silber-fur-nxt/

k i posted in your thread about it. thanks for letting me know.

hey thanks for the exposure. if i can find a way to expedite the process of shipping overseas than ill definitely consider shipping over there also. last time i shipped something out of country i had to fill out a bunch of paperwork at the post office, it took like 10 minutes. if i can just find a simpler way to ship internationally than ill ship to germans.

I wasn't quite sure what you meant by gateway.  You basically want to sell silver for Nxt and be a regular bullion sales company?  If yes then the AML and KYC rules of the Patriot Act would apply to your business.
EDIT I didn't see the bottom part but yes any type of securities and especially if you are calling them securities will be subject to securities laws of the countries the participants are in.  Just because it's decentralized it won't change existing securities laws.  Those laws also pretty much give a pass to the buyers and place the penalties and regulations on the sellers which you seem to want to be.  Be careful!

i wonder how people in ripple deal with it

*edit* do you think i could get around this problem by not promising to redeem the "token"? by saying that i reserve the right to do anything that i want with the tokens and that i make no obligation to redeem them for anything specific or anything at all for that matter and that if i happen to send you a silver coin in the mail after you returned one of my "tokens" to me that this was purely and only because of my chose to send you a silver coin? If i really needed to take this a step further i could send things other than silver at random every once in a while to reinforce this idea, and prove to the government, that im not actually promising to do anything specific by issuing these tokens.

1 oz ANON Silver bars. DOPE!

well they would be 10oz bars cuz i dont have time to sit and pour 1 oz bars but they would definitely be DOPE!

yeah 10oz is 10x doper.

I wonder how much arbitrage there would be from NXT price including shipping, to retail pricing. I'm guessing not much once you started making a deserved profit on this.

its just something i would have to figure out with trial and error. hopefully not too much error. i would be trying my hardest to compete with amagi prices but thats going to be hard because i will likely have to turn the nxt into bitcoin, the bitcoin into dollars and the dollars into silver. every one of those stages the counter party is going to want some premium. by making my own bars though i may be able to pull it off.

I'm not familiar with ripple but a cursory look suggests that the actual gateways between fiat and xrp are companies like bitstamp which either are registered MSBs or are not in US jurisdiction.  Also recent arrests of regular bitcoin sellers in Florida for failing to follow MSB regulations shows the dangers of even doing things P2P. Calling things tokens etc while the real meaning is something else will only make it seem like you are actively trying to dodge the law.  Why not just be a PM sales company that accepts Nxt as payment and pays with Nxt for silver.

Because decentralized asset exchange is a core feature. Once we get this ball rolling down hill and everyone is doing it these laws will be unenforceable. The hard part is just getting that ball rolling. others are doing it also https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=430998 this is going to be the next big thing in the crypto space.

again though any idea what the implications wuold be if i purposefully made no guarantees to honour any arrangements?

Thumbs up for the brave people getting it done.  You were asking the questions so I thought I'd share the info that I know.  Decentralized physical assets will have the weak point of the person or company holding and handling the physical items.  If you are choosing to be that person be cautious.

yea i would be lying if i said it wasn't terrifying. ill just get the license if I can.

sounds interesting!

silver seems legit ;)

hi Anon ,u r doing a great work.

and You also gave me a lot of hope to be able to trade US stocks by AE. As a foreigner, you know, it is difficult to trade U.S. stocks (such as NASDAQ), you can deploy it together in you gateway?

I think this is a lot of people just like me will needed. Waiting for your reply, thank you.

You cant technically trade any of the underlying assets on the nxt decentralized asset exchange. What you can trade is assets denominated in the underlying asset. I.E. a promise to pay the underlying asset on demand. Since the person could never pay you the underlying asset in your jurisdiction you could never actually get the stock. HOWEVER you could take advantage of changing prices by buying the promise to pay, holding that promise to pay while the value of the underlying asset (presumably) increases, then selling that promise to pay to someone state-side for more than you initially paid for it (since if the value of the underlying asset increases than so too will the value of the promise to pay that asset on demand)

I can definitely see this.  It would be very easy to start a tech stock AE for example, give the choice of a few popular stocks (apple, google, facebook, twitter, etc) to be traded on Nxt AE.  Hell, maybe I'll start the exchange.  I could easily post statements for each transaction for confirmation.

nice.

That would be nice!  :)

yep ill make video tutorial to walk people through the whole process

the more I research it the more that I think I'm going to make my own bars. it really doesn't seem hard at all. what do you guys think about custom made 10 ounce bars?

Whit a small Nxt logo embossed :)

how to do that is exactly what im trying to figure out right now. i have found products like this http://www.lmine.com/product/18391.html but no one offering a service of creating custom stainless steel molds with custom engraving. if anyone can find such a service for me I will send you some nxt :D

i submitted this post on the goldsmithing forum:


maybe i'll find some luck there. or here. or somewhere. but i'm going to bed now. ill resume in the morning.

http://www.etsy.com/listing/151907980/custom-graphite-ingot-molds-in-any-shape

sorry i should have mentioned that graphite wears out rather quickly. im looking for a permanent stainless steel mold.

+1, think it would be great.

Joseph has experience, in this regard...... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=122404

thanks, ill send him a pm with my question.

as it could be useful I indicated a company that does almost the same thing you want to do.

I am a customer of them and works great. I always thought that nxt might be a different currency more that could operate in bullion vault.

they are simply repositories of precious metals.

clients trade in bullion vault

Maybe another possibility not as ambitious in the short term is to ask these people how can operate in nxt.

http://www.bullionvault.com/


Perhaps can you help me?

Do you think about this project?


At the dawn of electricity in the late nineteenth century was Thomas Edison envisioned a decentralized system with many small companies competing for generators installed near the point of consumption. Since the electricity distribution cables were still rare , the Edison Electric Lighting Company focused most of his first business in installing generators in small factories, shops, hotels and homes .
In 1888 , Edison had installed 1,700 small plants . In the early twentieth century , more than half of U.S. electricity It was self-produced by industries that took advantage of the waste heat and excess electricity sold to nearby customers.

Would it be possible to implement Nxt platform under the distributed energy market ?

Is a market where producers and consumers of energy would cross their sales orders and purchase orders simultaneously.

Today a small community of neighbors or landowners can generate and sell energy through solar PV , mini wind power, etc. .

For example an owner decide to install in his home to energy consumption solar pv but at certain times of day to spare and is now selling the excess energy in the Nxt platform.

At one point he needs same energy and buys his deficit in the Nxt platform.

both buyer and seller should obviously pay transport costs to distribution companies but the market for the generation and consumption of energy would peer ( peer to peer) .

This would link with the colored coins and the contract system like Ethereum .

Does anyone dare with the idea ?

If anyone dares I'm interested to collaborate .

against gold. I think the first currency crypto linking with gold (coins colors) can become the standard for buying and selling gold without having to move the gold bullion vault.

the implications are enormous.

yes ill do gold also but it will take some time to build up. i dont have the reserves i need yet.

so i wanted to put a little catch phrase below the NXT logo. I was thinking of doing "in emergence we trust" or "in emergent order we trust". possibly in latin. what do you guys think? i wonder where you find someone who is knowledgeable in latin. google translate will probably not cut it.

One idea

Why not open an account and buy demanding customers nxt gold in bullion vault .

bullion vault you would take away from having to worry about securing the possible metal theft etc.

they do something like buy bullion gold wholesale market and sell the gold in a retail market.

one could simply repeat the process but for nxt client.

bullion vault allows you to buy very small amounts of gold or silver. they just do not leave assigned as owner of a portion of an ingot.

ingots are purchased according to international management standares all this you avoid the Might.

on this idea would be interested in collaborating

http://www.bullionvault.com/

One of my good friends teaches latin at our university, If you need anything to translate, just PM me.

thanks cryptonikus, ill take you up on that offer ;D. pm sent.

cкинитe нeмнoгo зoлoтыx нeкcтoв aтo бoмжyю тyт дaвнo ) 7116614111554401124
BullionVault нeecть гyд

Very good idea! Like it. Would buy it!  :)

this is the rough shape that ill be going for


http://www.bullionaire.com.au/images/Bullionaire-1kg%20Southern%20Cross%20Bar%20S.jpg
im going to try to make a stackable design thats sort of thin in the z axis but wide and tall in the x and y so that it stacks well

Would like it. But I would prefer more 5 Oz or 10 Oz as size (I guess the 10 Oz you have already in mind)

Yes I will be doing 10 troy ounce (assuming everything works out)

i still need to find a machinest capable of helping me produce the mould.

Does anyone here happen to know an experienced and talented machinist in the crypto community?

sneak peek

http://s27.postimg.org/c80cplq1f/NXTBAR1.jpg

http://s28.postimg.org/6vpr02n8d/NXTBAR2.jpg

Congrats man... it's people like in the community that will help push what's possible.

Man, I'm looking forward to this!

i have some awesome stuff to show you guys but i'll post it tomorrow when people are actually on ;D

I could easily help with latin and old greek

Thats awesome! I really want to do something extolling the virtues of emergent order but I just cant figure out what.

Also i need to go through the main thread and compile a list of all of the suggestions but man it would be so much work. I wish they had posted the suggestions here instead >.<

awesome!! :) will they be 1kg?

What kind of premium over spot are we looking at?
What kind of fees for delivery?
How will this be audited?

I was thinking of doing this with ASEs or generic rounds and saw this. Great idea!
If and when it launches, silverstackers and /r/silverbugs will probably eat this up.

I'm glad you are excited ;D i am excited also.

They will be 10 troy ounces.

Don't know yet. I will just be to trying to undercut my competition. If i can make a profit and undercut the competition than I will probably just take what ever margin I can get.

Well i wont really charge for delivery per say. The price for delivery will be baked into the issue price of the asset and again ill just be trying to outcompete my competition over all taking into account what they charge for shipping and seeing if I can make a profit from there. From your end though you will never see anything about shipping. All you will have to do is go into the orderbook and buy tokens from who ever is selling them the cheapest, send me 10 nxt silver colored tokens, attach a message with your address, and wait for your bar to arrive.

I will be providing monthly picture audits with a news paper with today's date in the background. Additionally if any prominent figure in the crypto community would like to stop by my house to conduct a true third party audit than they will be most welcome.

Awesome! the more competition the better. But i cant promise that ill go easy on you ;)

One can only hope!

Great look. I will buy one from you, Anon. Thanks.

Another thing to consider, many of us will probably claim delivery on one or two bars right at the beginning just to have such a unique bar. I personally will take delivery on 1-2 and hold tickets on the rest.

That's awesome to hear! I'm not sure how I will handle the price early on. When I produce my first bar the demand will GREATLY exceed the supply so in the interest of reconciling that the prices will probably be REALLY high for the early units and then come down and stabilize with time as i am able to build up some reserves. Maybe I'll hold auctions early on. Not sure.

I'm looking forward to this!

Nice

Awesome! I am also looking forward to this!

in an attempt to solve a difficult problem i had to come up with a work around for how to design my bar. but in retrospect the changes that i had to make actually are kinda awesome. its going to be a really cool and unique looking bar :)

im breaking new ground here guys. this thing im doing. the industry expert that im consulting with, he doesn't think its ever been tried before but he also thinks its going to work ;D

Sounds good Sir. Looking forward to the prototype of this unique bar. And like I said: We need this also shipped to Europe!

Damn I missed this thread so far. This is awesome !

My thoughts exactly)

I'm not a lawyer, but one way around that issue could be to call your tokens digital warehouse receipts. As far as I know, you don't need a license to issue a proof-of-ownership document to someone else (as long as you have the goods to back it up, of course.  :) ) It'd be like (say) a bike store issuing a receipt for a new bike in lieu of handing the bike over, which can be done for pre-sales of a model not out yet, or a claim check for a prime-rib roast from a grocery store that's "roast good." Again, I'm not a lawyer, but common sense says that a warehouse receipt in NXT form shouldn't cause you any legal snarl-ups...at least in the case of a non-transferrable receipt.

It might be a different animal if the receipt is transferrable...but it might not be. Back in the day when places like McDonald's sold paper gift certificates, they were bearer instruments and thus transferable. This angle dovetails perfectly with your plan to pour your own bars. x NXT = 1 Gift Certificate, Redeemable For One 10 Ounce Silver Bar At The Anon136 Foundry. There's loads of precedent to show that transferrable bearer gift certificates are legal.

The only difficulty I see comes with the fungibility of NXT. Where's the line between a transferrable warehouse receipt or gift certificate and a security? In Canada, there's a cozy old tradition courtesy of Canadian Tire corporation: "Canadian Tire money." Legally, they're "Cash Bonus" coupons "Redeemable in Merchandise only at Canadian Tire Stores" - i.e., gift certificates with no expiry date. They're bearer instruments, transferrable, and come in denominations as low as 5 Canadian cents. I have some in my wallet right now.

Were you Canadian, you could fend off the authorities by saying that your gateway issues "Cash Bonus Coupons for the silver bars I make, just like Canadian Tire money." A prosecutor would hear "well-known precedent" in the last clause and leave you be. But Canadian law, I'm sure, doesn't reach into your jurisdiction.

As I said, I'm not a lawyer. Pity we can't find a real one and get him or her hooked on NXT. It'd be better than inviting a family doctor to a house party  ;D

Interested!

+1  excited to see this develop

Any news on this project, Anon?

Dont get it.. you store nxt in a physical wallet in some safe or something that will temporarely be worth nxt and can be exchanged for real nxt? Read the first post.. so maybe im far out

regards

Nice, looking forward to this!

I keep silver bullion in a safe and if anyone redeems (a) silver bullion colored nxt token(s) at my public nxt address with a message attached specifying their address than i will ship them silver in an amount proportionate to the number of tokens redeemed.

well its gotten complicated. there is a problem with the lettering were if its recessed into the bar perpendicular to the surface of the bar than it may crack. So i have to do the lettering where the wall is at a 45 degree angle. Which means i have to do each and every angle for every letter by hand. so tedious it makes my stomach feel like it has bugs in it. I just have to get up the will to slog through it though. ill go work on it some more now.

*edit* i can copy and past individual letters after i make them so that saves some time

Final draft. What do you guys think? I'm pretty sure this is what the bars are going to look like.

http://s12.postimg.org/jhib2gpjx/bar01.jpg
http://s22.postimg.org/exbnhi7g1/bar02.jpg
http://s14.postimg.org/pl5cl9n81/bar03.jpg

Awesome! Need this!!!  :o

It looks very nice! When do you think you will produce the first bars?

Well i cant tell you that because i don't know but i can tell you what i'm doing now and what i have left to do. at this moment i am trying to get the dimensions just right since there are some issues with the bars changing size while cooling and getting worn down a bit in finishing. i have to make the cavity of the mould over-sized so im trying to figure out by how much. then i have to build a model of the entire mould. next i have to find someone to convert it from skp to cad. next i have to find cnc machinist who can make the mould out of the cad file. then i have buy a furnace some silver shot and finally i have to actually make my first bar.

For the smart maths people out there

This chart says http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/volum-expansion-coefficients-solids-d_1894.html the volumetric thermal expansion coefficient of silver is 58.3 (10-6 m/(m K)) i can only assume they mean m^3 since that is how you would measure volume.

So if i multiply 58.3*0.000001 i get 0.0000583

So silver expands at 0.0000583 meters cubed per meter cubed per kelvin.

Room temperature is about 300 kelvin. The melting point of silver is about 1233 kelvin. So that's a difference of 933 kelvin.

So then i just multiply 0.0000583*933 and get 0.0543939 meters cubed per meter cubed of change over 933 degrees.

Ive got to be honest that seems crazy. a 5.5% change in size as it cools? there is no way that can be right.

Its written as a linear expansion coefficient e.g. (m/m K) not (m^3/(m K)), a linear coefficient which is change in length per meter and degree of temperature, volumetric is 3x linear for a solid, but another reference I have says the volumetric expansion coefficient for silver is 54 *10^-6 (m^3/(m K)) AT 20C - So I think it may be a volumetric expansion coefficient just worng units....

BUT I don't think solid to liquid volume change can be calculated using a constant - so your 5% may be wrong because you have a 'state change'

EDIT:

density of solid silver at room temperature = 10.49gcm^-3
density of liquid silver at melting point= 9.320gcm^-3

perhaps this is a simpler - the ratio of the densities will give you a volume change between liquid silver and room temperature solid silver.

For computing volumetric expension, you need to use the following formula:

dV/V=alpha_v*dT

alpha_v is the volum-expansion-coefficient that you find. The unit of the volumetric coefficient is the inverse of temperature K^-1 or C^-1. The unit Kelvin or Celcius can be interchange because a variation of 1K is equal to the variation of 1C.

dV: is the variation of volume, in the unit you choose (e.g. m^3)
V: is the volume of the solid (same unit as dV)
alpha_v : is the volumetric coefficient (unit K^-1 or C^-1)
dT: is the variation of temperature ( inverse unit of alpha_v)

So to compute the % volume variation:

you simply use alpha_v*dT*100.

Your case, alpha_V=58.3*10^-6
dT=933

then % volume variation = 58.3*10^-6*933*100=5,43%

You got the right answer.

Edit: well, that an approximate. Im not sure the formula is valid for very large dT. For large temperature gradient, you need to use integral formula as stated in wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion
Check volumetric expansion.

it doesn't need to be. the only point at which shrinking matters is past the point at which it has transitioned from liquid to solid. as long as its liquid it can flow freely through out the chamber of the mould. so the point at which it becomes solid is the upper bound for what i need to calculate.

http://iweb.tntech.edu/murdock/books/bookv3.pdf

#7 under worked examples verifies that you're using the equations right

awesome! i can never make heads or tales of fancy math stuff like that. it looks like french to me. i just have to work through the logic in my head :D

yes, the coefficients are not constant, they depend on the temperature and the pressure

ok well that's really going to go out of my league. can any of you smart guys tell me how much the volume would change when cooling from 1234K to 300K?

do you plan to cast silver yourself? That is pretty complicated.

yes i do and yes i know. what we are talking about right now is just part of the complications :D

Maybe chanc3r's solid/liquid numbers are the most useful (depending on your accuracy requirements)...
 until someone finds the nonlinear coefficients for silver :)

good point. the mean between those values would be a good estimation.

I assume that you cast at 1 atm, so the process is roughtly at constant pressure.

For a good approximation, I believe you need to use integral formula with alpha(T)  function of temperature. I don<T know, but some table might exist in the litterature at constant pressure (1 atm). If you have this curve, I dont believe the phase change will do anything because it effect will already be in the curve alpha(T).

it doesn't need to be that accurate. its good practice to cast at a little over the denomination anyway.

Depending on accuracy you don'T have to use integral, but only do stair approximation of the curve. and compute 100*dV/V for a certain number of dT interval. After which you sum up each 100*dV/V computed.

NXT Logo and silver -the ideas are unlimited. Great project Anon.

https://i.imgur.com/ol3Kf6s.jpg?1

if just calculating with an example, 1000 g of silver:

liquid :  V = 1000 g / 9.3 g/cm3 =  107.5268 cm3
solid:    V = 1000 g / 10.49 g/cm3 = 95.328 cm3

Volume change  X %  is broadly 11.3 %.  
 (if you need more accurate, then it needs  equation :)
     V1 - (V1/100*X) = V2

  

anon: I'm pretty sure your calculation of 5.5% difference is correct, you used the formulas and values correctly.
a temperature difference of about 900 degrees is pretty severe, I think a shrinking of 5% is absolutely possible.

if there happens that liquid -> solid change, then the volume change is more (11.3 %),
according to those densities http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver

maybe anon can start by that and adjusting by experience. If anon cast many silver bar, then It only take a couple adjustment from experiment to make it right. I don't know. Is that what you plan anon?
Or you want to be right the first time?

You can use the newton method or the bissection method to adjust rapidly your experimental guess each time given the results of your previous casting.  

yes its going to involve experimentation. that's inevitable. as complicated as this all sounds one has to consider additionally that the mould its self will be expanding and contracting with the heat. i hope my customers will be patient with me if my earlier bars come in at under 10 troy ounces. i will of course re-pour them for free when i get it perfect at some point in the future.

Do you have some experience in casting? or some people around you know that science? Casting at 1200-1300K is very dangerous.

no i dont not have any experience. of course that can be said for everyone who does at some point in their life. i am working with newliberty.

I suggest you go take some casting course. That would be best thing you can do. Or go visit directly some forgery and ask them questions. They are probably the best people that can help you.
To achieve 1200-1300K in a furnace, you need special equipement. And when it get out of the furnace. It is very very f**king hot around.

I don't want to get you hurt while you escrow something for me.... joking lol (only for the escrow part)

I guess it will be sold only in US.
What about the European market ? What do you need to make your Silver Bullion available to Europe ?

its going to be us only at first. after that i will explore options for other parts of the world.

newliberty has experience in this business.

this is the sort of furnace ill be using
http://www.ebay.com/itm/240V-Electric-Kiln-Furnace-Gold-Copper-Silver-Smelter-Assay-Melting-Bars-MYOGB9-/310877668789

Can possibly set you up with a trusted UK re-seller, if thats the route you take.

Good to see you connect with Newliberty.

yea hes a great guy. so patient and helpful. especially considering ill be competition for him. :P

Reposting here, since it probably got lost in The Big Thread:


Huh, instead of a code question you ask a science question about silver.  At last I am in my element (if you'll pardon the pun)!

First of all, something I ran across while researching this that is just plain cool:

http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/shrinkergallery.html

Here's somebody that talks about shrinkage while casting silver bullets:

http://www.patriciabriggs.com/articles/silver/silverbullet4.shtml

As far as cast silver shrinkage goes, here's a few other references for you to consider.  First, the shrinkage occurs in three stages:

http://thelibraryofmanufacturing.com/metalcasting_operation.html

Also, the thermal coefficient of expansion for silver varies with temperature, from 18.9 at room temp to 27.1 at 1100 K.  This says the first order approx for cubic vol expansion is roughly 3 times that which is 56.7 to 81.3 - in the range you were quoting:

http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/general_physics/2_3/2_3_5.html

Next, this guy measured silver volume expansion in his lab setup in preparation for measuring a copper-iron alloy.  He got  2.56% on cooling and 3.58% on heating, against a tabulated value of 3.4-3.8%.  See pg 20 of the PDF, page 7 of the thesis:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diva-portal.org%2Fsmash%2Fget%2Fdiva2%3A218833%2FFULLTEXT01.pdf&ei=-AQhU_vTBsulkQeT4IHQDw&usg=AFQjCNFLhKymiTGSwBWr-prG1LsriM2udA&sig2=HEbEyhcf_FZMEzfRQqqPsQ&bvm=bv.62922401,d.eW0

The book he lists as Ref 32 (the 1976 edition of Smithells Metals Reference Handbook) is here:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fworldtracker.org%2Fmedia%2Flibrary%2FEngineering%2FMetallurgy%2FSmithells%2520Metals%2520Reference%2520Book%2520(7th%2520Edition).pdf&ei=gAchU9LyHdDSkQfRj4CoAQ&usg=AFQjCNGsZHjMhb-8NW473q7STxAsIM5raQ&sig2=3uvHS5OGsAXxnfkBCnIBQw&bvm=bv.62922401,d.eW0

lol yea i guess its natural to assume i meant software engineer not like hard sciences engineer. my mistake. thanks for the resources i need all the help i can get.

Just so you guys know. I'm going to do the absolute best i can but don't expect the first editions to be perfect. This is going to be a process of trial and error that will get better with time. Of course you can send back older editions and have them remelted if i make newer better moulds in the future and you never know though, maybe the early edition bars will be collectable someday :P.

does anyone know how well a sketchup .skp file will convert to cad? can i just buy the pro version, save it as an autodesk compatible format and then take that to a local machine shop and get a solid product out of that? or am i going to have to hire an autodesk artist to translate my plans by hand/touch up the autodesk compatible sketchup pro output?

even if you dont know the answer to this question yourself, if you know someone who might, please send them my way.

thanks!

http://www.bitcoinmetals.us/ accepts nxt

Sorry, I dont know about it.

so i was thinking. perhaps one way that i could avoid running afoul of the law on my nxt silver bullion gateway is to emulate a dry cleaners. dry cleaners take in cloths, issue a claim check for those cloths, alter the state of the cloths, and then return them in exchange for the claim check. for some reason unknown to me this claim check is not considered a "security" under financial regulations. Technically it should be, you can leave your cloths at the dry cleaner for an extended period of time and then sell the claim check to someone else and then that person can use the claim check to acquire your cloths, the dry cleaner claim check is a security in every sense of the word but legally it just isn't. So what ever the reason for that is, which i dont know, i can use it to my advantage by emulating that business to a t.

so lets imagine that i am a silver dry cleaners and the melting of silver shot into a bar is the analogue of dry cleaning the cloths, the silver shot is the dirty cloths, and the silver bar is the clean cloths. You buy 10 ounces of silver shot from some online retailer and set the address for delivery as a POBox of my specification. You then use your nxt address to sign the tracking number of the order and send me enough nxt to pay for the "cleaning". The "dirty" silver arrives at my shop and I issue you a claim check. After enough time has passed for me to "clean" the silver that claim check will become redeemable for silver that is now in the form of a bar. From that point on if other people want to trade that claim check amongst each other than thats none of my business. If there are legal ramifications than the onus is on them, it has nothing to do with me.

the nice thing is that there will still be a market for my claim checks but i will never under any circumstances be one of the sellers in that market. so if you want to acquire physical silver than the process will be no more complex for you. you will simply buy one of these claim checks on the market from someone other than me and then reimburse it at my nxt address. The people who deal with ordering silver shot and shipping it to my po box will be in a sense speculators trying to take advantage of arbitrage and for that service they will be affording me a level of legal protection.

one would think that since now there is a new middle man between me and the consumer that this would cause the price to be higher but i dont think this is necessarily the case because there is an advantage to be gained from outsourcing the acquisition of silver shot, a large group of people competing with each other to find cheaper supplies than the other will probably be much more effective at acquiring cheap silver shot than i could be on my own.

tell me what you guys think.

so updates for today:

i have my skp file finished for my moulds and i found a plugin that allowed me to export the file as an stl. i spent today sending my stl file out to various machine shops in the area. only have 1 quote back so far, 2000 dollars :o but they also said that they tend to deal with bulk orders and put me in contact with a guy who does smaller orders. they feel confident that he will be able to do it for quite a bit less than 2000US. waiting on a reply back from him. if he can bring it in anywhere around 1000 than i will go ahead and give him the greenlight. then all i have to do from there is order the kiln which will be about 1000 after shipping. it'll have to sell quite a few units before i turn a profit, hopefully you guys will help me with that ;D.

Wow great work. (exciting times seeing things like this become available!)

Sounds very good. Will help you with that -> if you also ship to my place (Germany)  ;)

international stuff is on my list of things to look into. first i have to actually get silver bars to sell before i worry about figuring out the logistics of navigating the morass of international regulations. with that said you can always buy some tokens and hold them and they will be intimately tied to the price of physical silver so if the price rises your assets will rise in very accurate parallel. could be a great option for people who live in countries where there is a huge tariff for silver imports.

I suggest you put a link to this thread in your sig.

The analogy with the dry cleaners and talking about 'dirty silver', will make some people chuckle. In the UK dry cleaners are sometimes called, launderettes.  ;D

Anon, what specific reg or law are you concerned with?

Anon136, just seen your post today on the pub thread - yes, definitely interested in your project and looking forward to updates. 

im worried about failing into the bailiwick of either the cftc or the sec and being subject to regulations requiring financial licensing bondage and insurance. i dont know specifically what the regulations are that i may be transgressing. i couldn't tell you what book to look in and what page to look on. sorry.

Will repeat my post from original threads about organizing such exchange: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg5800384#msg5800384

In not in the US, so not much empathy and understanding of regs and laws here, but I really dont see a huge problem, considering the initial amounts involved here. If it was me, i would incorporate a standard retail company solely for this purpose so as to ring-fence potential problems down the road. I know that sounds flippant, but its baffling sometimes for non-US peeps to understand how much time and energy the US uses up, worrying about what or what not, the authorities can or cant do.
I appreciate its better to be informed and ready, but would you really expect to appear on a bad-actor radar, as a new company turning over $20000 in the first year?
Just do it.  :)     

yep im going to. if i make any profit than ill probably use it to build better legal protection. when i make enough profit to hire a lawyer i will do that and when i make enough profit to get licensed and bonded and insured than i will do that. until then though i dont want to spend money on those things if this isnt even a profitable business model. so lets find that out first. atleast until the point that i can afford those legal protections there is some protection from the fact that this is all brand new uncharted territory and so a definite legal grey area.

ill probably have to start with something a little less ambitious than what was seen in the screenshots. im unable to find any machinists who are willing to take on my job at this time :'(

Something that may interest.... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=395761.msg5902588#msg5902588

Anon136 is a great man  :o

I also find     ;D

doesn't matter if it's not like in the screenshots, it's the project we love :)
Do you have any news?

Are you on nxtforum.org too (with this project)?

thanks that was interesting.

I wish I was 1/10th as great as you guys think I am but trying to live up to your expectations is making me a better person I think.

ya im on nxtforum.org with the same handle. havn't made a thread about this there yet. probably should. thanks for pointing that out.

Interesting. Thread might get invoked here.

UPDATE Bars will be hand poured style since i could never find a machinist to take the job for my original mold design.

http://s30.postimg.org/xs53d6b4h/2014_05_21.jpg

3 bars made so far. you can see my progress. they are getting better. once i can prove to my wife that there is demand for this i can buy a tumbler. a tumbler will allow me to polish them literally to a mirror finish. You will be able to shave with them. I need your help to make this project a success. Buy sell trade evangelize this asset. More left in the giveaway fund if you haven't received any yourself yet or know someone who is interested.

Asset Name: silver Asset ID: 7819056276221630295

Looks awesome, good work Anon.  Question about Asset.  Are you selling the silver Asset tokens yourself?  I don't see that you are issuing the Assets in the sell category.  Or am I confused?

No I do not sell them myself. I promised that I would not sell the assets myself so that the people who send me silver for storage have a better chance at making a profit. If you would like to acquire tokens directly from me than you may do so by sending me silver bullion in the mail.

Ah, I see.  Was a little confused by the business model but understand now.

Anon, what is the largest (in OZ's) silver bar that you can melt down?  I'd like to send some silver but want to make sure I don't send something that won't fit in the oven  :)  Thanks.

If you send me a big bar ill just put it in the safe and pull out an equivalent amount of off brand rounds so no worries. Lets try to keep it under 1000 though :D

I bought my tumbler yesterday from harbor freight. Here are some pictures and a before and after.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zfvWYawX0Fw/U4PwE3xv-9I/AAAAAAAAGAI/J7qJpgv0knI/w725-h544-no/2014-05-26
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jSN0vojq9EE/U4PwBKsdsmI/AAAAAAAAF_w/bLUHxOwzXvs/w725-h544-no/2014-05-26
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-vkf6y1XRoCU/U4PwAB961UI/AAAAAAAAF_o/U-3qdxNlioc/w725-h544-no/2014-05-26

Before:
http://s30.postimg.org/xs53d6b4h/2014_05_21.jpg

After:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Ba3GjZUfds0/U4Tez_eesUI/AAAAAAAAGCU/0YfeOuL6KPY/w725-h544-no/2014-05-27

There is still one more step left. I purchased a dremel tool and flitz from ebay.

http://images.mypilotstore.com/products/4579.jpg

I think im going to try the 220 sand paper and the steel wool again and then try tumbling it again. I think it should look better than it does by this step.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Hl8LTBpYh4w/U4Usbny9bhI/AAAAAAAAGDU/vdLfVdUFTbM/w725-h544-no/2014-05-27

much better. i know it doesn't look like much. i know its very dull. but if you will look closely at this picture compared to the previous one, this time the tumbler got almost all of the scratches out. this means that when i apply the polish it should look amazing.

i was right by the way. the problem is that the dry steel wool wasn't getting out the scratches from the 220 grit and a little bit of gun oil allowed the steel wool to abrase the surface in a way that it couldn't when dry. ;D

learning so much yet so much more to learn. im quickly learning that this is an art as much as it is a science.