Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin ETF  (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/etf.asp) is currently in news as SEC recently rejected Winklevoss twin Bitcoin ETF  (https://www.coindesk.com/winklevoss-brothers-bitcoin-etf-rejected-by-sec-for-second-time/) and   fate of 9 others ETF will be decided in next 2 month  (https://www.coindesk.com/the-sec-will-decide-on-9-bitcoin-etfs-in-the-next-2-months/).

Whatever the SEC decide on it in future will be interesting to follow.  It will be worth nothing that Bitcoin ETF will be treating Bitcoin as an asset not as a currency. As per fundamental of ETF , Bitcoin ETF will simply means that Bitcoin will be locked as an asset and ETF will be traded in exchange.
 
Why Bitcoin ETF should not make appeal to the Bitcoin community.

1. Treating currency as an asset to trade in exchange.
2. For ETF, Bitcoin need to kept  secured, means ETF will remove that amount of Bitcoin to be available for active transaction.
3. Bitcoin can be easily purchased and sold so it is not that Bitcoin ETF is making bitcoin more available to masses.
4. ETF do not gurantee that it will solve the Bitcoin price volatility problem.
5. ETF might give rise to "HODL" mentality that is not good for Bitcoin. (I will explain it sometime later.)

ETF will help Institutional Investors or other organization to invest in Bitcoin but Bitcoin is meant for P2P transaction and Satoshi did not created it to be used as Investment product.


Edit: Adding below the views of  Andreas Antonopoulos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSv0J4bfBCc&feature=push-u&attr_tag=GUmiDnU0TxDaahFh%3A6&ab_channel=aantonop

The main points from his video

1.When you own Bitcoin you own keys. You are in control of your Bitcoin. By ETF , you will not have any keys so you are not in control of your Bitcoin.

2.ETF owner/Custodian  will be a single holder of the Bitcoin. ETF holding so large amount of Bitcoin can easily manipulate the market.

3.If any debate going to happen in bitcoin (like Bitcoin cash ) in future then ETF custodian will have the voice but not the actual share holders.

4.Bitcoin ETF is a terrible idea but it might happen in future.

You've already answered the question. I believe the text in the bold on the quote makes others really excited for the ETF since it will mean more profit to come and is the reason why ETF's have an appeal to the bitcoin community as a whole. Just the thought of speculating how much money institutional investors and other organization will put on it is very appealing, and the thought of price skyrocketing because of it is very enticing.

No, what we really need are Bitcoin legalization as currency/payment method and making sure everyone can buy/sell Bitcoin easier, even in small amount

This look to me very short term goal, as it will cause change of status from currency to an asset that is not at all desired.
It remind me a old story of The Goose That Laid the Golden Egg (http://www.storyit.com/Classics/Stories/goldengooseegg.htm).

it certainly has some undesirable effect, pulling a large chunk of bitcoin out of circulation will basically mean there will be less bitcoin to be used as a means  of payment, destroying Satoshies original vision

it's a catalyst. do we "need" it? no, would it ramp up the price? almost certainly.

there is a lot of fear we are going to leg down and test 3200-3700 out there right now. it seems unwarranted since 2018 is not 2014 or anywhere close to it fundamentally

an etf approval would likely stop that thought process dead in its tracks. personally i think the question on an etf is "when" not "if"

We really need it, if SEC approve Bitcoin ETF, there will be more people know about Bitcoin, and trust in it, more buyers, this will pumps Bitcoin price and then the whole crypto market. Though  Bitcoin ETF will make Bitcoin become an asset and not a currency, it's still good for us because Bitcoin can't become a currency unless it can enable micro payments and lightning transactions with minimum fees.

Bitcoin ETF is needed not just for price speculation but to give legitimacy to the entire cryptocurrency sector. Now if you walk around the street and just talk to anybody about bitcoin, nobody would have any clue what you are talking about. Bitcoin ETF may not be necessary for the crypto market but it speeds up the adoption of crypto among the masses.

Also Europe is already progressing towards ETF.  Flow Traders NV is already trading in ETN. ETF is unstoppable its only a matter of when.

I agree with the both of you. ETF is our key to making crypto more visible and at the same time more accessible. Its a way towards BTC world-wide adoption - speaking, of the future, of course!

For some reason, I just want bitcoin and crypto in general to stay like it is, the wild west kind of market. ETF and all kinds of institutional products are no for me. That's just my opinion.

Even Andreas Antonopoulos says that Bitcoin ETF is a very terrible idea.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSv0J4bfBCc&feature=push-u&attr_tag=GUmiDnU0TxDaahFh%3A6&ab_channel=aantonop

The main points from his video

1.When you own Bitcoin you own keys. You are in control of your Bitcoin. By ETF , you will not have any keys so you are not in control of your Bitcoin.

2.ETF owner/Custodian  will be a single holder of the Bitcoin. ETF holding so large amount of Bitcoin can easily manipulate the market.

3.If any debate going to happen in bitcoin (like Bitcoin cash ) in future then ETF custodian will have the voice but not the actual share holders.

4.Bitcoin ETF is a terrible idea but it might happen in future.

The ETF isn't the be all and end all of bitcoin and bitcoin is bigger than that, but maybe people shouldn't get excited about something that may never come. Besides, even if it does ever get the go ahead I don't think it will be that huge. Sure, people will get excited about it and the price will rally but it'll probably come crashing back down again once the excitement is over.


I don't see how people holding bitcoin is against satoshis vision? Bitcoin was created as a new type of money, and people can either spend of save it. Bitcoin doesn't have to be constantly moving about. Besides, more bitcoin out of circulation is good for everyone as it lowers the supply whilst demand continues to grow.


I'm sure more people are going to know what bitcoin is than an ETF.

It is the path to the entry of institutional money. I think the ecosystem is set to evolve into that direction anyway, we should try to be ready to take advantage if that´s possible.

Although i'd love to see an ETF granted at some stage, i really think crypto needs a real good clean-up first!

There are too many scammers,crooks and thieves that have been catching out people who are new to the space. Not to mention all of the blatant scam ICO's, ETH 'giveaway' scams or other joke coins/tokens which have suddenly appeared on the scene.

In my opinion if we are to be taken seriously as a community, then all the crap needs to be washed away and build from there. Then we can start focusing on an ETF.

Ohh, my, yeahhh! We do need it and lets hope that ETF does approve crypto because if that happens is almost as when countries are saved from a great recession.

No, we don't need a Bitcoin ETF.

I mostly agree with Andreas Antonopoulos, and one of his most interesting points is that the ETF investors will be second tier compared to people who have access to their keys.
I'm not comfortable with holding BTC in exchanges. I can't imagine being comfortable holding BTC in an ETF.

We shouldn't be blinded by the price of Bitcoin. Usability and market building are more important.

If ETF get approval then more money will come on crypto and the price of cryptocurrency will rise very much. For this reason we need ETF approval.

The things Bitcoin need the most are miners, buyers and sellers. ETF can fuck off, Bitcoin didn't need it in the past and so it doesn't need it now.

People don't seem to realise that ETFs are usually based on paper contracts, and this means they expand the apparently available amount of the asset. Bitcoin's value is based on scarcity, and the fact that only 21 million coins will be released. Just think of the effect on the price if ETFs add another 20 million "virtual" coins to the pool, and don't forget that their transfer will provide revenue for the banks, and not for the miners who are so important to the integrity of the Bitcoin economy.

I hope that ETFs never gain any approval, but they are such a valuable tool for banking control, that it is almost certain that they will be used for the benefit of the bankers.

I think Bitcoin can continue to develop even without an ETF, but if the ETF can successfully pass the review, then this will allow Bitcoin to land on the moon ahead of time!

I think , they need to  put bitcoin in reserve for creating that amount of ETF so that much amount of bitcoin will be removed from market, otherwise there is no difference in paper currency and bitcoin ETF

For greater legitimacy within the financial world, I think yes. But at the same time, I think that's a slipper slope. As many have mentioned, once a Bitcoin ETF is created, I'm sure it would be manipulated in such a way that wouldn't be friendly to Bitcoin.

I can speak for him/her/them; I don't ever think the original intention of Satoshi was for a ETF to be created.

Good Ask, i dont know if ETF will be usefull fot btc, so... it will bring more and more founds to btc, but they are speculation founds, and if now whale can determinate a dump or pump... can you think with many financial whale on board????

If its a physicsl etf, then they will have to physically hold the bitcoin. If its a syntethic etf they will not hold physical coins, they will use swap constructions instead to replicate.

Yes, like most people on here I also feel that it will be interesting to follow ETF decision though I do have my reservations on how that will play out - hopefully, I'm wrong  ;D

You guys thinking the ETF is necessary may be making a huge and critical mistake.  Your want of a temporary boost in Bitcoin will eventually destroy Bitcoin and hand the keys over to the Central bankers who run these ETF's.  I'm familiar with this ETF bullshit in the silver market.  

They completely control the silver market with their paper ETF game.  They actually do this for almost every valuable asset on earth but the silver scam is the one I'm most knowledgeable about.  If silver starts to rise they simply print paper silver and flood the market.  By doing this with silver (and gold) it makes the fiat look better.  Imagine if silver and gold began skyrocketing.  It would show the fiat currencies are crashing.  Can't have that. 

The logical man then says that will never work.  What if people take delivery.  They won't have it and it will break the market.  Bankers are too smart for that.  They have a stipulation in the contract you sign when trading paper assets that in case of failure to deliver they will pay you in dollars.   Dollars that they print!

If you guys let the bankers in so you can make a quick profit your destroying the entire movement.

I think ETF are needed to provide certainty for investors, because if ETF already accepted bitcoin, investors will not feel hesitant about bitcoin, because right now there are still many investors who think bitcoin as a bubble or ponzi scheme

Bitcoin ETF was disapproved for it has another concern that US government does not allow to happen. I have posted a thread on economy section regarding with the conflict of cryptoccurency and the dollar currency The conflict of cryptocurrency and the US dollars currency! (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5034263.msg45975220#msg45975220).

The ETF is not really needed but for some reasons that the community does want bitcoin to be acknowledge by the government so the ETF was created. This will help us to get more encouragement and to engage more in cryptocurrency and have some security over the money we invested on it. Definitely it could be help but then again it is not that needed for cryptocurrency could still be working even without the ETF.

Going through this thread again and  realized that some  "ETFs are usually based on paper contracts" and ultimately there is no difference in paper currency and bitcoin ETF.

In as much as Bitcoin ETF is not fully needed but on the other hand, it's needed to a particular extent. Such things will bring a drive and cause new investors to come into the market, it can also provide room for more Bitcoin adoption and which when paired with other legalization, will bring about a turn around of things now.