Bitcoin Forum

I have 206000 dollars in my MTGOX account before Feb.7. These money are sleeping in MTGOX for years. I trust MTGOX & Bitcoin foundation very much. I thought Satoshi is behind MTGOX. (I think I am a idiot!!)

After a serials of good news and bad news and the market manipulation in these dark days, my balance is slim to 64000 dollars. I finally decide to retrieve the money via Bitcoin builder. I bought 320 btc at 200 in MTGOX. MTGOX suddenly shut down when I am withdrawing the bitcoin!

I think all the money are gone. All I want is putting Mark Karpeles to the jail. I do not trust Bitcoin again. :'( :'( :'(

You knew damn well it was a risk to buy more BTC in MtGox after all that shit happened... there was a reason the price was so low.

This is Mark Karpeles with your bitcoins:

http://www.netanimations.net/Obama-bucks-animated-money-gif.gif

To be fair I really don't think he stole the bitcoins, I have a feeling people will get it back and it'll be a nice surprise for everyone

I think you are right.

What do you base that assumption on? The consensus seems to be the opposite: That both BTC and fiat is gone forever. All(?) pundits have basically expressed such views.

First, I really feel for you, and I understand that you don't want to touch anything Bitcoin again. That is for the emotional part.

That said, the 3 letter word is about that big in my mind when I read you:

WHY???

What made you trust MtGox so much, when they totally lack any kind of financial safety whatsoever, how could you trust them for that much money, and such an extended amount of time?

Didn't you realize that Bitcoin had been partly designed to escape the trust / IOU / FRB / debt / TBTF / private profit, public losses nightmare?

These are truly honest questions, although they may look trollish in the context, but I really want to have a better understanding of how MtGox managed to get that undue amount of trust from major depositors like you.

They didn't even have an interest rate on fiat nor BTC. I genuinely fail to understand the point of leaving money there for so long.

I hope you still keep a few coins in your local wallet. Keep them safe. You will be bailed out when it goes above $10000/BTC

Because he believes Satoshi is behind gox. What an insult to the genius

Wishful thinking but unless you know something we don't, this is pretty fucking remote at this point.

Why the hell would anyone trust Mt Gox after all the issues it had over the years, not just this year?

They've had numerous problems with withdrawing funds, being hacked, losing coins.  I thought this was common knowledge in the Bitcoin community?

Hard to feel too sorry for anyone that didn't transfer funds after all the multiple fiascos in 2013:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox)

If you had massive funds in Gox after that historically terrible 2013, you kinda deserve it.

all peopel who didnt sell thirr mtgox btcs to chinee are idots and deserve their loss

I'm sorry that you have to learn your lesson in a hard way.

Why you would keep that much money online is anyone's guess

I bolded your mistakes :P

I'm sorry for your loss, but you also didn't put any effort forward to protect yourself from it either. Would you trust ANYONE to hold $206,000 cash for you? (US banks a bit different with FDIC and assuming that the US doesn't completely collapse short term)

Given OP's registration date, it's plausible that he had his account open much before MtGox had introduced verification procedures.

I don't... but I don't see how he's not gonna end up either arrested or dead if this doesn't get fixed.

Yes. That is why I can not withdraw the money.

My favorite theory is that MtGox recently discovered it is unable to access one or more cold wallets.  Could be as simple as writing down the wrong case in a password, or more complex like writing the cold storage with old / buggy custom software, and later trying to read it with newer software.   Or even simpler like leaving the USB key with 700,000 coins on it at the Starbucks counter.   haha.

Anyway, it may be that Mark and co are using this time frantically trying to access the cold storage.  Maybe trying password combinations or whatever.

And if they crack that nut.... maybe you'll get your money back.

At least there seems to exist that chance.  Maybe cause for hope.


Full theory is here:
http://letstalkbitcoin.com/somethings-not-right-at-gox/

That nice keep hoping.  :)

 Should have listen to warnings many months ago. Should not keep your bitcoins on the exchange. There is a saying the fool and his money will soon parted.  

$200k may only mean 200BTC if he had sold at $1000, and 200BTC was not a big deal for someone who started in 2011. It could all be GPU mined in a few months

When you can get $200 / bitcoin its already down out there its $600

That's possible, but the leading theory is still this one:


The 750k figure is just a ledger number.  Has nothing to do with the blockchain.

Unfortunately a lot of this has to do with user error.  You should never trust your money with a 3rd party that offers no insurance. Especially a 3rd party that has reputation for being problematic.

Chalk it up as a harsh life lesson and in the future if you ever decide to put that amount of money into something,  do your homework first.  Some google searches and checking on here would have provided you with enough information for you to know how risky gox was/is.

If your money was in say coinbase, you'd still be fine.  If you kept your bitcoins in your own personal wallets youd be fine.  If you weren't activaley trading then you could have kept your fiat in a bank instead and have been fine.

Anyways lesson learned,  try to understand though that bitcoin itself is still strong and fine.

Ha! That'll be the day. Considering our history, though, nothing would surprise me at this point. Between the "leaked document" that is legit, then not legit, then legit again, and all the FUD going around, who the hell knows anymore.

Sorry for your loss I hope we all get our coins back!!!

Sorry to hear that! That's so sad but that's not the reason not to trust bitcoin community as it was MtGox false you've lost your money and MtGox is just a part of Bitcoin.

A year from now people will be saying this about those who made the mistake of submitting AML/KYC docs.

What gave you this idea?

Plot twist. Suddenly MtGox reopens and gives back the Bitcoins to everybody. The euphoria is massive. The price goes up to $1200 again. Mark Karpeles is a hero.

I feel sorry for you and people like you that trusted gox. I hope that you will be able to recover what you have lost.

Plot twist, Namecoin goes back above $10 each by Friday.   :D

What a retard thing to say! How the hell could new bitcoin investors like me know every past news about gox? I'm one of your "idiots" having some funds at gox because they seemed to me to be the only serious exchange when I joined the train (except I'm far from an idiot but highly educated). I did some research of course but I could only see issues they had with fiat withdrawals. How could I possibly know they would halt bitcoin withdrawals as well? That could easily happen with btc-e or bitstamp as well if they had technical issues they not telling users about.

Edit:
The research, conducted by Erin Buckels of the University of Manitoba and two colleagues, sought to directly investigate whether people who engage in trolling are characterized by personality traits that fall in the so-called Dark Tetrad: Machiavellianism (willingness to manipulate and deceive others), narcissism (egotism and self-obsession), psychopathy (the lack of remorse and empathy), and sadism (pleasure in the suffering of others).
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/climate_desk/2014/02/internet_troll_personality_study_machiavellianism_narcissism_psychopathy.html

but you only lost 64000 dolars so why 200 000

Don't take people like that guy seriously. We've ALL lost Bitcoins via this heist both beginners and experts. Thanks for joining our community!  Hang in there buddy!

I do not think these insider tradings are legit. Actually I lost 320 btc at the end. The only reason I buy or sell the btc recently is for saving my money. I admit I am not a good speculator.

What I really want to know is why Karpeles wears a T-shirt when it's snowing. I've never used Gox, because I smelt a rat a long time ago.

I don't want to sound jaded, but I am having a hard time believing this story. If you were moving around that kind of weight, you are almost 100% on the cutting edge of any breaking news, and i feel that you would have withdrawn some long ago. Either that, or 200k is play money for you so while it stings, ot doesnt break you. Cant figure out which I believe.

If it is true, i am super sorry :(

Your moneys is safe now, karpeles care of your money.

If you didint withdraw at least half of what you got there after they started shutting down withdrawals, than yes, you are.


You pretty much deserve what you got, as keeping most of your value on such a bad place that had to be ignored since summer last year is well...not smart.

Natural selection i guess...

....I do not trust MTGOX, I do not trust my ability to store BTC safely and ability to listen hundreds of warnings about situation around MTGOX again .:'( :'( :'(


FTFY 


It is not fault of Bitcoin...

Please let me know why Bitcoin foundation did not give us the warnings. Should we trust Bitcoin foundation? Should we trust the developers of Bitcoin? Should we trust Bitcoin?

Hardcore reality check for you man...
Makes me feel better about the minor loses i had.
So you did a good thing, somehow....

FFS get a grip! Karpeles was on the board until he recently resigned. Why the hell are you involved with bitcoin if you can't be bothered to do the most basic research?

Well I gues a lot of people lost a lot of money there. I'm more surprised someone is showing off how much money they drowned there. 206k$ is a lot of cash, you had a lot of trust in to them. I hope there aren't as many people as you out there.

People are stilling thinking that gox will come back but the fact is gox gone forever. anyways for the whole media story cover for gox  go here

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-26352442

i keep my bitcoins stuffed into a mattress

The Princess and the BTC.

I am sorry that some people more informed than you are making a fool of you.

Bitcoin is a very robust and safe technology, and there is nothing broken about it. The problem is that it still requires some basic training before you start to use them. I would say it requires about 1-2 hours of reading, you may start with the Bitcoin Wiki (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Securing_your_wallet), for example.

Unless you are willing to take that basic training, you are putting yourself at risk when you are dealing with Bitcoin.

That 1-2 hours basic training includes the following teachings, with all due respect (I'll be bold and use boldface)

• Bitcoin has been designed so you can actually OWN them. Owning Bitcoin means that 1) you own the private keys for your addresses, 2) no one else does. In other words, it is OK to use a wallet like Bitcoin-Qt, Multibit, Electrum or even Blockchain.info. It is NOT OK to use third parties like MtGox, Bitstamp, inputs.io, etc. as your wallet. You will get burned.
• By trusting third parties to keep "your" Bitcoin, you are actually giving them your coins in exchange for a promise from them to give them back (IOU). This is VERY dangerous and there is absolutely no reason to take that risk until a very strong financial insurance and external auditing is backing that promise. Even if you are daytrading, it's worth withdrawing all your coins at the end of the day
• The Bitcoin Foundation is absolutely not Bitcoin's regulatory body, they are absolutely not monitoring, auditing or responsible for exchanges and services in any way,
• The Bitcoin developers cannot "force" you to understand what you are doing with your coins before allowing you to download and use their software. They can only urge you to do it. In other words, they cannot protect yourself from your own lack of knowledge

Now it is up to you to put the blame on Bitcoin if you want. But if Bitcoin succeeds and becomes what many here believe it will become (i.e. a huge success), you might end up "double-regretting" it in the future: not only your coins were stolen as an early, misinformed adopter, but you didn't take the chance to learn from it and "get rich again" before the masses wake up and everyone wants some Bitcoin

I hope you do not open e-mail from people in Africa.

Gox needs investor-necromant card if u like to get your coins back

You put your savings in bitcoin. Why would you do that? Like it hasn't been repeated here a 1000000 times not to invest what you can't afford to lose. It's a gamble like any other. Still I'm sorry you lost. Hope you will manage to get at least part of it back.

Based on his previous (mostly Chinese) and current posts, he simply doesn't understand bitcoin, even he started in 2011. Bitcoin is just like a get-rich-quick black box for him, backed by Bitcoin Foundation and "Satoshi of MtGox". He was lucky enough to discover this once-in-several-generations opportunity and earn a few hundred early adopter coins, but he never tried to figure out why Bitcoin makes him rich.

Anyway, if he is lucky enough to have a few coins left in his local wallet, he should now learn how to keep them safe.

FTFY. There's nothing wrong with Bitcoin here.

A simple Address search revealed he still has thousands of BTC send me a PM I have PM'ed you as well Ill be happy to get your Coin back I'm sure we can come to an arrangement getting ready to book my tickets to Japan  :)

Because Bitcoin fundation is self elected group of people that have nothing to do with anything. They work for their own gain and nothing else. How did you even conclude that they are someone that will "warn" you or "protect" you?!

Bitcoin Foundation CLAIMS it "protects and promotes the use of Bitcoin cryptographic money for the benefit of users worldwide". No more, no less. You need to make your own judgement.

Bitcoin is a opensource project. You don't need to trust the developer. You can learn and review the source code.

Bitcoin is about freedom, but freedom is not free. With the more freedom, you have more responsibility to take care of your money. If you simply can't handle it, or you are not care to learn it, please go back to the traditional banking system which is (supposedly) backed by the government.

Wow this is really big loss, wish you good luck but i don't think that gox woul "surprise" us

You are a early adopter too. Did bitcoin makes you rich too? Did you sell bitcoin on 1000 dollars? Did you earn a few hundred early adopter coins? I do not know why could you give these words, you know nothing.

THIS IS MY FAULT. I AM A IDIOT, OK?

Sorry if you find I'm rude but this is not a good place to look for sympathy.

The point is not whether bitcoin makes me rich. This is not a get-rich-quick scheme to me. I heard about it, learnt its mechanism, found it as a brilliant idea, and am now trying to contribute to it.

The Bitcoin Foundation is monitoring the Bitcoin software and network.

If the Bitcoin software is broken (coin theft from wallets, bogus transactions, double spends), that would be a concern to the Foundation.
If the Bitcoin network is broken (forked, filtered, blocked, compromised etc.), that would be a concern to the Foundation.

They also have a political and lobbying component to promote and protect Bitcoin: if your Bitcoins get stolen by your government, because they raid your place, put a gun on your head to have you release your private keys, they will certainly try to get involved to voice their concerns to that government and help you expose their behaviour to the world.

With the failure of MtGox, it is very likely that they will broaden their scope to try to do their best to try to convince all major exchanges to cooperate with them to get them audited externally and segregate deposits from their operational business. Unfortunately, it requires cooperation from them and the Foundation just doesn't have the authority to arbitrarily regulate a foreign, private entity like MtGox / Tibanne.


It just means that they are major sponsors to the Foundation. Nothing more, i.e. it doesn't work the other way -- it is NOT an endorsement of the Foundation for sponsors.

But I admit that it is a kind of conflict of interest in light of the recent events, and it's already being discussed internally. You will have to acknowledge that the Foundation did get the resignation of Mark Karpeles, MtGox's CEO, from the Foundation Board. IMHO this was really due and as a member of the Foundation myself, I wouldn't have accepted had it been otherwise, and I would eventually have resigned myself voluntarily from my paid, lifetime membership if Karpeles was to stay at the board of the Foundation.


The Foundation is made of people like you and me. You can join anytime, the personal, yearly membership is about $30 worth of BTC if I recall well.

And you totally got me wrong if you still think that I do not trust the developers of Bitcoin, I trust them a lot, unlike EXCHANGES, because Bitcoin core devs are transparent, I can read the sensitive open source code at any time (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet.cpp).

you going to send me a PM ? any information you post in here will be used by Mark and his lawyers.

I am going to suggest that I too had 206000 dollars in MtGox. There's no evidence of this unfortunately but there is much confusion and I hope that when the dust settles that they will conclude that I should be credited by this amount. If they can loose imaginary coins, perhaps they can find them too!!

Can we get this in big writing up on the front page of bitcoin.org - hell, maybe even work it into the logo somehow?

So you know it is not the point?

It's not the point for me. It's the point for you. You witnessed its raise from $2 to $1200, and it makes you rich, but you never learnt why it is so successful. Bitcoin is successful because you can trust your money with no one. You don't need to trust MtGox, don't need to trust Bitcoin Foundation, don't need to trust core developers, don't even need to trust Satoshi Nakamoto. Yes, you don't even need to trust Satoshi Nakamoto because the whole thing is open source.

Although you never learnt this before, I hope you learn this TODAY, in a hard way. If you really can't understand this, go back to your local bank, it's way much safer than ANY existing bitcoin exchange.

You witnessed its raise from $2 to $1200, and it makes you rich
> Please give me the source

you never learnt why it is so successful.
> Please give me the source.

don't need to trust core developers
> It is easy to destroy the bitcoin if I am the core developer.

I don't understand what you're trying to say so I'm not going to comment on the above.

This is not true. There isn't a single implementation of "bitcoin" as software. Even if the developers of the most popular bitcoin client added a change that people didn't agree with, it is very unlikely that they could get a majority of the network using it. The bitcoin network works by consensus.

MtGox or other services and exchanges are not bitcoin; please distinguish the two.

Show me the kill switch (source). Fact is that there is none. So you are wrong.

This will be my last answer, I'm not losing time if you don't want to learn anything from what we reply to you.

You are perfectly free* not to trust Bitcoin and never touch it again.


* freedom comes at a price

If I have that "key" to broadcast the "upgrading" message(the core developer has the key), too many clients will be upgraded to a Trojan software. The software will send the private key to me continuously. Then the bitcoin network is destroyed. It that simple?

There is no such backdoor. What you are describing is an iPhone* or forced Windows Update.

Not everything in technology works like consumer grade devices that have been designed both to protect you from yourself and to allow third parties to take over your devices if you are trying to do something that they don't wan't you to do with them.

*even the infamous Apple didn't (couldn't? I wouldn't swear) remotely wipe the Blockchain.info app when they pulled it from their App Store

Of course there is no such backdoor. What I mean is "if I am the core developer".
And there is a "key" indeed(Satoshi, Gavin, Theymos...have the key). If I am wrong, please correct it for me.

Again, no, there isn't. And your logical fallacy is burden of proof (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof).

Even where bitcoin clients are packaged in operating systems (e.g. Ubuntu), let's follow through how this attack would play out:

1. Developer of fooclient adds back door that does something bad, and makes release of new version of fooclient.

2. Ubuntu maintainer of fooclient sees new upstream release and packages it.

3. People automatically upgrade to new version of fooclient because their Ubuntu offers it

4. Either someone spots evil code in new release of fooclient, or else evil code is made use of and people start getting ripped off.

5. Security advisory is put out by Ubuntu together with revert of previous upgrade.

between 3 and 5 some people are gonna get ripped off. This demonstrates that you do need to trust the developers of your wallet/client/miner etc. Having access to the source is going to help with that, though not completely as bugs are easy to miss and subtle exploits can be added by skilled developers.

But it also demonstrates that it is in no way a kill switch.

OP you have gone from blaming bitcoin for your losses in mtgox to saying bitcoin can't be trusted because developers can't be trusted. It's true you need to trust a service while they are holding an IOU for your coins. It's true you need to trust a developer while their software is holding your coins.

If you don't want to trust a service, don't let them hold your coins.

If you don't want to trust a developer, use a cold wallet.

You have to trust a lot more people to maintain your fiat savings.

The key was discussed in this forum. Maybe you did not know it. I do not know if the thing is changed.

Please search "Satoshi Gavin message" in the forum, you will found these posts.

There is no key idiot. Stop fcking being paranoid because you're a fool and lost your money.

When a fool like you suddenly found a bag of gold, you would still lose it, left alone something as innovative as bitcoin.

Its time for you to educate yourself, or go back to use CNY and shut up.

Please search "Satoshi Gavin message" in the forum, you will found these posts.


Quote from: Pieter Wuille on August 06, 2012, 08:26:11 PM
Quote from: kentrolla on August 06, 2012, 03:00:33 PM
so if gavin gave the CIA that key. then the cia could corrupt the blockchain whenever they want? or at least make a malicious bitcoin client "update"

No. The only thing that this key can do is signing an alert message that propagates through the network.

Satoshi, Gavin and theymos have this key, IIRC.

Theymos, a college student in Wisconsin taking French, has the key?

~Bruno~

For flyable:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=489771.0

Learn to read. It's about a line of text, an informational message, and only affects the reference Bitcoin-Qt implementation (most Bitcoin users are using different wallets for their routine needs)

The worst that the FBI can do if they waterboarded Gavin to get the key is speading FUD to Bitcoin-Qt like "All Your Coinz Are Belong To Us!"

It also can be used for sending the upgrading message. Remember the last bitcoin issue(Hard fork)? Did you read the source code before your upgrading?

I just want to say, if you trust Bitcoin, you need to trust the core developers. I did not say they are not trusted.

Here's how to fix that to make it actually a reflection of reality instead of just your irrational fears:

I dont know why i even bother with idiot like you ....

Thats not a "key". Go learn what that actually is from reading the source code.

What you said has nothing to do with Gavin or core developers having a "key". If you use a client for your wallet that means you trust the coder of such client. Any core developers can release their version of wallet client. Why does this "key" anything to do with that?

Beside do you know how github works? You cant release a new client with illicit code without being noticed easily.

My conclusion, you're just too dumb and trying to make sense of something you have no fcking clue about. I'm kinda glad you lost money in Gox because it will(hopefully  ::)) be a valuable lesson for you.

PS: wow lucky for you, i can read Chinese..... You're such a clueless shit that doesnt deserve to get rich from bitcoin boom. First you came here not understanding bitcoin technology, 3 years later you still dont understand crap..... you even said next gen of ASIC is BSIC and CSIC.... wtf? LOL

I am sorry. I do not want to say more...

Directed to all the users with large holdings in mtgox :

We need to transform GOX into the best exchange ever. We can recover our coins make history and give a great example to the world. People will truly see then that bitcoin doesn't fail so easily. And all the news/media proclaiming the death of bitcoin because of GOX, will look like idiots.

GO here :
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=489949.0;topicseen

or here
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=488483.0 (Voluntary Reorganization is the Best Option for Us)

If you have any more money you'd like to waste, please either send it to me, or a charity of your choice.

This quote sums up this thread:

A foole and his monie be soone at debate,
which after with sorrow repents him too late
~ Thomas Tusser

For the uneducated:
A fool and his money are soon parted.

Why people trusted that chode is beyond me, he looks like a supervillian in the making.

Umm... Sounds almost that you got what you was looking for. This is of course sadly for everyone who lost something and generally for Bitcoin. But... why in the hel* keep so big amounts on third party accounts? Only reason for that would be extensive trading... I learned that with bitcoin24.de shutdown and bitcoin-central.net hack.

That would be called the "Miracle of the bitcoin" and be written into the history books.

Sorry for loosin So much money

Its called DENIAL ...he was in so deep that he could not contemplate the reality

Its the same with Nigerian Prince 419 SCAMS ..they keep sending money because to face reality is too painful

... THIS FRAUD is the second largest in history... KARPELS needs to goto jail !!!

STAPH ..this is a sure fire way to recoup his loses ....419 oppurtunitys and nigerian princes may need the use of his GOX coinz  ..lolz

My god your right according to forbes.com only Enron outdid him. If it is in fact fraud that is and only time will tell.

Yeah except, I've never used MtGox

Man, hire a lawyer while he still has money and btc/properties. Once he has nothing left you can't do shit. Those who do it first will receive their money back, don't wait, it is a lot of money.

I agree with you. In fact, I have decided to create a platform of people affected to help each other and study our options to recover our Bitcoins.
I have contacted lawyers and I am waiting to receive the conditions to proceed with this issue legally.
The Platform is avaible in English and Spanish. We want to adopt a international common position in order to give our possible claim a significant weight.
You can visit us at:
http://affectedmtgox.blogspot.com.es/

I hope all Bitcoins users will bounce back after the fall that caused its value to collapse, this crisis would lead to better security on sites where Bitcoins are bought and sold.

If the GOX lost the money, it's useless to sue, everyone will get like 10 dollar damages. I posted up a much better plan (the reddit and facebook links) which has a much better chance to recover ALL.

A wise man once told me, never put all your eggs into one basket. Now I am offering you the same advice. :D

Just be thankful Bitcoin isn't regulated otherwise you would have lost a lot more than $206,000.

uhh, this is hard pill to swallow, be strong dude.(

Since you obviously have a gambling streak in you, why don't you take that 64k and split it up into like 20 equal parts and invest each in new altcoins as they hit the market, when you can buy them for a few satoshis apiece. Hold them for a few months, then sell when they go up in value a lot. Some will, some won't, but you could easily make several times your investment.

So if the coins do not get recovered... there will only be ~20 million total coins now, right? Because supposedly the 700k coins are 'lost'

Does lost mean hackers have it, or they the coins are in limbo and unattainable?


If they are truly gone then shouldn't remaining coins increase a bit in value?

Guide to Affected People in order to take a common position at
http://affectedmtgox.blogspot.com.es/p/blog-page_9078.html …

I didn't fully trust Mtgox fully at first which is why I opted to hedge 50% of my bitcoins instead of going 100% for HFT in gox. I did lose out a fair amount which was around 9BTC which was done when the prices where going low but now I am amongst with many in the same boat that might never see their bitcoins or fiat again.

I posted an issue regarding mtgox's collapse and how other exchanges work (proving full reserve instead of fractional reserve) as we might see in the future that other exchanges will collapse if they can't prove the funds that they have and have funds missing. So for now, I reckon cold storage and face to face trading within my community will be the safest option for now until safer exchanges ring fence users wallets.

Caveat emptor

Very true, never put all your investment in one basket, hedge them in lower risk strategies.