I lost 206000 dollars in MTGOX

[Bitcoinpro]

I hope you do not open e-mail from people in Africa.

Based on his previous (mostly Chinese) and current posts, he simply doesn't understand bitcoin, even he started in 2011. Bitcoin is just like a get-rich-quick black box for him, backed by Bitcoin Foundation and "Satoshi of MtGox". He was lucky enough to discover this once-in-several-generations opportunity and earn a few hundred early adopter coins, but he never tried to figure out why Bitcoin makes him rich.

Anyway, if he is lucky enough to have a few coins left in his local wallet, he should now learn how to keep them safe.

You are a early adopter too. Did bitcoin makes you rich too? Did you sell bitcoin on 1000 dollars? Did you earn a few hundred early adopter coins? I do not know why could you give these words, you know nothing.

THIS IS MY FAULT. I AM A IDIOT, OK?

you going to send me a PM ? any information you post in here will be used by Mark and his lawyers.

[davidpbrown]

I am going to suggest that I too had 206000 dollars in MtGox. There's no evidence of this unfortunately but there is much confusion and I hope that when the dust settles that they will conclude that I should be credited by this amount. If they can loose imaginary coins, perhaps they can find them too!!

[Tirapon]

• Bitcoin has been designed so you can actually OWN them. Owning Bitcoin means that 1) you own the private keys for your addresses, 2) no one else does. In other words, it is OK to use a wallet like Bitcoin-Qt, Multibit, Electrum or even Blockchain.info. It is NOT OK to use third parties like MtGox, Bitstamp, inputs.io, etc. as your wallet. You will get burned.
• By trusting third parties to keep "your" Bitcoin, you are actually giving them your coins in exchange for a promise from them to give them back (IOU). This is VERY dangerous and there is absolutely no reason to take that risk until a very strong financial insurance and external auditing is backing that promise. Even if you are daytrading, it's worth withdrawing all your coins at the end of the day
• The Bitcoin Foundation is absolutely not Bitcoin's regulatory body, they are absolutely not monitoring, auditing or responsible for exchanges and services in any way,
• The Bitcoin developers cannot "force" you to understand what you are doing with your coins before allowing you to download and use their software. They can only urge you to do it. In other words, they cannot protect yourself from your own lack of knowledge

Can we get this in big writing up on the front page of bitcoin.org - hell, maybe even work it into the logo somehow?

[flyable]

I hope you do not open e-mail from people in Africa.

Based on his previous (mostly Chinese) and current posts, he simply doesn't understand bitcoin, even he started in 2011. Bitcoin is just like a get-rich-quick black box for him, backed by Bitcoin Foundation and "Satoshi of MtGox". He was lucky enough to discover this once-in-several-generations opportunity and earn a few hundred early adopter coins, but he never tried to figure out why Bitcoin makes him rich.

Anyway, if he is lucky enough to have a few coins left in his local wallet, he should now learn how to keep them safe.

You are a early adopter too. Did bitcoin makes you rich too? Did you sell bitcoin on 1000 dollars? Did you earn a few hundred early adopter coins? I do not know why could you give these words, you know nothing.

THIS IS MY FAULT. I AM A IDIOT, OK?

Sorry if you find I'm rude but this is not a good place to look for sympathy.

The point is not whether bitcoin makes me rich. This is not a get-rich-quick scheme to me. I heard about it, learnt its mechanism, found it as a brilliant idea, and am now trying to contribute to it.

So you know it is not the point?

[jl2012]

I hope you do not open e-mail from people in Africa.

Based on his previous (mostly Chinese) and current posts, he simply doesn't understand bitcoin, even he started in 2011. Bitcoin is just like a get-rich-quick black box for him, backed by Bitcoin Foundation and "Satoshi of MtGox". He was lucky enough to discover this once-in-several-generations opportunity and earn a few hundred early adopter coins, but he never tried to figure out why Bitcoin makes him rich.

Anyway, if he is lucky enough to have a few coins left in his local wallet, he should now learn how to keep them safe.

You are a early adopter too. Did bitcoin makes you rich too? Did you sell bitcoin on 1000 dollars? Did you earn a few hundred early adopter coins? I do not know why could you give these words, you know nothing.

THIS IS MY FAULT. I AM A IDIOT, OK?

Sorry if you find I'm rude but this is not a good place to look for sympathy.

The point is not whether bitcoin makes me rich. This is not a get-rich-quick scheme to me. I heard about it, learnt its mechanism, found it as a brilliant idea, and am now trying to contribute to it.

So you know it is not the point?

It's not the point for me. It's the point for you. You witnessed its raise from $2 to $1200, and it makes you rich, but you never learnt why it is so successful. Bitcoin is successful because you can trust your money with no one. You don't need to trust MtGox, don't need to trust Bitcoin Foundation, don't need to trust core developers, don't even need to trust Satoshi Nakamoto. Yes, you don't even need to trust Satoshi Nakamoto because the whole thing is open source.

Although you never learnt this before, I hope you learn this TODAY, in a hard way. If you really can't understand this, go back to your local bank, it's way much safer than ANY existing bitcoin exchange.

[flyable]

I hope you do not open e-mail from people in Africa.

Based on his previous (mostly Chinese) and current posts, he simply doesn't understand bitcoin, even he started in 2011. Bitcoin is just like a get-rich-quick black box for him, backed by Bitcoin Foundation and "Satoshi of MtGox". He was lucky enough to discover this once-in-several-generations opportunity and earn a few hundred early adopter coins, but he never tried to figure out why Bitcoin makes him rich.

Anyway, if he is lucky enough to have a few coins left in his local wallet, he should now learn how to keep them safe.

You are a early adopter too. Did bitcoin makes you rich too? Did you sell bitcoin on 1000 dollars? Did you earn a few hundred early adopter coins? I do not know why could you give these words, you know nothing.

THIS IS MY FAULT. I AM A IDIOT, OK?

Sorry if you find I'm rude but this is not a good place to look for sympathy.

The point is not whether bitcoin makes me rich. This is not a get-rich-quick scheme to me. I heard about it, learnt its mechanism, found it as a brilliant idea, and am now trying to contribute to it.

So you know it is not the point?

It's not the point for me. It's the point for you. You witnessed its raise from $2 to $1200, and it makes you rich, but you never learnt why it is so successful. Bitcoin is successful because you can trust your money with no one. You don't need to trust MtGox, don't need to trust Bitcoin Foundation, don't need to trust core developers, don't even need to trust Satoshi Nakamoto. Yes, you don't even need to trust Satoshi Nakamoto because the whole thing is open source.

Although you never learnt this before, I hope you learn this TODAY, in a hard way. If you really can't understand this, go back to your local bank, it's way much safer than ANY existing bitcoin exchange.

You witnessed its raise from $2 to $1200, and it makes you rich
> Please give me the source

you never learnt why it is so successful.
> Please give me the source.

don't need to trust core developers
> It is easy to destroy the bitcoin if I am the core developer.

[grifferz]

You witnessed its raise from $2 to $1200, and it makes you rich
> Please give me the source

you never learnt why it is so successful.
> Please give me the source.

I don't understand what you're trying to say so I'm not going to comment on the above.

don't need to trust core developers
> It is easy to destroy the bitcoin if I am the core developer.

This is not true. There isn't a single implementation of "bitcoin" as software. Even if the developers of the most popular bitcoin client added a change that people didn't agree with, it is very unlikely that they could get a majority of the network using it. The bitcoin network works by consensus.

MtGox or other services and exchanges are not bitcoin; please distinguish the two.

[matt4054]

don't need to trust core developers
> It is easy to destroy the bitcoin if I am the core developer.

Show me the kill switch (source). Fact is that there is none. So you are wrong.

This will be my last answer, I'm not losing time if you don't want to learn anything from what we reply to you.

You are perfectly free* not to trust Bitcoin and never touch it again.


* freedom comes at a price

[flyable]

don't need to trust core developers
> It is easy to destroy the bitcoin if I am the core developer.

Show me the kill switch (source). Fact is that there is none. So you are wrong.

This will be my last answer, I'm not losing time if you don't want to learn anything from what we reply to you.

You are perfectly free* not to trust Bitcoin and never touch it again.


* freedom comes at a price

If I have that "key" to broadcast the "upgrading" message(the core developer has the key), too many clients will be upgraded to a Trojan software. The software will send the private key to me continuously. Then the bitcoin network is destroyed. It that simple?

[matt4054]

If I have that "key" to broadcast the "upgrading" message(the core developer has the key), I think too many clients will be upgraded. I told them to send the private key to me. Then bitcoin is destroyed. It that simple?

There is no such backdoor. What you are describing is an iPhone* or forced Windows Update.

Not everything in technology works like consumer grade devices that have been designed both to protect you from yourself and to allow third parties to take over your devices if you are trying to do something that they don't wan't you to do with them.

*even the infamous Apple didn't (couldn't? I wouldn't swear) remotely wipe the Blockchain.info app when they pulled it from their App Store

[flyable]

If I have that "key" to broadcast the "upgrading" message(the core developer has the key), I think too many clients will be upgraded. I told them to send the private key to me. Then bitcoin is destroyed. It that simple?

There is no such backdoor. What you are describing is an iPhone* or forced Windows Update.

Not everything in technology works like consumer grade devices that have been designed both to protect you from yourself and to allow third parties to take over your devices if you are trying to do something that they don't wan't you to do with them.

*even the infamous Apple didn't (couldn't? I wouldn't swear) remotely wipe the Blockchain.info app when they pulled it from their App Store

Of course there is no such backdoor. What I mean is "if I am the core developer".
And there is a "key" indeed(Satoshi, Gavin, Theymos...have the key). If I am wrong, please correct it for me.

[matt4054]

And there is a "key" indeed(Satoshi, Gavin, Theymos...have the key). If I am wrong, please correct it for me.

Again, no, there isn't. And your logical fallacy is burden of proof.

[grifferz]

Even where bitcoin clients are packaged in operating systems (e.g. Ubuntu), let's follow through how this attack would play out:

1. Developer of fooclient adds back door that does something bad, and makes release of new version of fooclient.

2. Ubuntu maintainer of fooclient sees new upstream release and packages it.

3. People automatically upgrade to new version of fooclient because their Ubuntu offers it

4. Either someone spots evil code in new release of fooclient, or else evil code is made use of and people start getting ripped off.

5. Security advisory is put out by Ubuntu together with revert of previous upgrade.

between 3 and 5 some people are gonna get ripped off. This demonstrates that you do need to trust the developers of your wallet/client/miner etc. Having access to the source is going to help with that, though not completely as bugs are easy to miss and subtle exploits can be added by skilled developers.

But it also demonstrates that it is in no way a kill switch.

OP you have gone from blaming bitcoin for your losses in mtgox to saying bitcoin can't be trusted because developers can't be trusted. It's true you need to trust a service while they are holding an IOU for your coins. It's true you need to trust a developer while their software is holding your coins.

If you don't want to trust a service, don't let them hold your coins.

If you don't want to trust a developer, use a cold wallet.

You have to trust a lot more people to maintain your fiat savings.

[flyable]

And there is a "key" indeed(Satoshi, Gavin, Theymos...have the key). If I am wrong, please correct it for me.

Again, no, there isn't. And your logical fallacy is burden of proof.

The key was discussed in this forum. Maybe you did not know it. I do not know if the thing is changed.

Please search "Satoshi Gavin message" in the forum, you will found these posts.

[seriouscoin]

And there is a "key" indeed(Satoshi, Gavin, Theymos...have the key). If I am wrong, please correct it for me.

Again, no, there isn't. And your logical fallacy is burden of proof.

The key was discussed in this forum. Maybe you did not know it. I do not know if the thing is changed.

There is no key idiot. Stop fcking being paranoid because you're a fool and lost your money.

When a fool like you suddenly found a bag of gold, you would still lose it, left alone something as innovative as bitcoin.

Its time for you to educate yourself, or go back to use CNY and shut up.

[flyable]

And there is a "key" indeed(Satoshi, Gavin, Theymos...have the key). If I am wrong, please correct it for me.

Again, no, there isn't. And your logical fallacy is burden of proof.

The key was discussed in this forum. Maybe you did not know it. I do not know if the thing is changed.

There is no key idiot. Stop fcking being paranoid because you're a fool and lost your money.

When a fool like you suddenly found a bag of gold, you would still lose it, left alone something as innovative as bitcoin.

Its time for you to educate yourself, or go back to use CNY and shut up.

Please search "Satoshi Gavin message" in the forum, you will found these posts.


Quote from: Pieter Wuille on August 06, 2012, 08:26:11 PM
Quote from: kentrolla on August 06, 2012, 03:00:33 PM
so if gavin gave the CIA that key. then the cia could corrupt the blockchain whenever they want? or at least make a malicious bitcoin client "update"

No. The only thing that this key can do is signing an alert message that propagates through the network.

Satoshi, Gavin and theymos have this key, IIRC.

Theymos, a college student in Wisconsin taking French, has the key?

~Bruno~

[PLUSBITCOIN]

For flyable:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=489771.0

[matt4054]

No. The only thing that this key can do is signing an alert message that propagates through the network.

Learn to read. It's about a line of text, an informational message, and only affects the reference Bitcoin-Qt implementation (most Bitcoin users are using different wallets for their routine needs)

The worst that the FBI can do if they waterboarded Gavin to get the key is speading FUD to Bitcoin-Qt like "All Your Coinz Are Belong To Us!"

[flyable]

No. The only thing that this key can do is signing an alert message that propagates through the network.

Learn to read. It's about a line of text, an informational message, and only affects the reference Bitcoin-Qt implementation (most Bitcoin users are using different wallets for their routine needs)

The worst that the FBI can do if they waterboarded Gavin to get the key is speading FUD to Bitcoin-Qt like "All Your Coinz Are Belong To Us!"

It also can be used for sending the upgrading message. Remember the last bitcoin issue(Hard fork)? Did you read the source code before your upgrading?

I just want to say, if you trust Bitcoin, you need to trust the core developers. I did not say they are not trusted.

[grifferz]

I just want to say, if you trust Bitcoin, you need to trust the core developers. I did not say they are not trusted.

Here's how to fix that to make it actually a reflection of reality instead of just your irrational fears:

I just want to say, if you trust a bitcoin client, you need to trust its developers.