Bitcoin Forum

I'm not sure if satoshi makes bitcoin as an alternative payment system, or with the intention to create the best and most used payment system, but this second option is impossible by the bitcoin nature and i will explain why.

If bitcoin want to become the #1 transactions and payment system it would have to be really more powerfull. If we compare the daily transactions banks vs daily transactions bitcoins, then you will understand why i call satoshi visionless:


TPS: Transactions Per Second.

While bitcoin have blocks each 10 minutes with 2500 transactions aprox, that give us an averange of 4 TPS.

We are far away to compete with banks, bitcoin by it self is not able to handle all the transactions the world have, so, maybe is good time to think about the next steps, and get some big goal like substitute banks with btc. But no one say it would be easy  :P

banks lock in funds and they have control of the funds. they can freeze your account, make you wait 3-5 days to send a wire. chargeback, etc.. many issues

LN is a separate network from bitcoin and is a proposed solution. but being a separate network it need. locking in funds, counterparty control. the counterpart can go offline thus freezing your funds. makes you wait before you can close a channel without penalty.. they can chargeback(revocation) and the destination needs to be online as well as all the middle men inbetween to all using the payment is done. .
oh and you will need to have multiple channels(accounts) splitting your funds up as a way to mitigate risk of lack of routing. meaning many onchan tx's/outpt bytes to deposit into each.... thus many issues

again LN is not a bitcoin feature but its own separate network.

a good solution for those screaming:
"bitcoin is broke it doesnt scale"
"bitcoin is broke it cant pay for coffee on bitcoin"
is this

imagine LN concept of preplanning spending and moving funds in before spending... but without LN. no need to lock funds up into coparty accounts(channels) who can go offline before spending your money. no need to have multiple channels where your funds are spread.

instead
you simply preplan spending habits.
you simply pay starbucks a months worth of coffee onchain, in one transaction. and they update starbucks app with a month of coffee credit. job done

I think bitcoin wasn't meant to be the best and most used payment system. Because the supply is limited, so that was never truly the case. It was meant to be an alternative, obviously.

We aren't competing with banks, not for now at least. Visa is a payment processing system,bitcoin is a crypto currency. Big difference there. There are more debit cards than bitcoins, note that I didn't even mention credit cards. Satoshi wasn't visionless exactly, but he shouldn't have left bitcoin thin and dry. He should have been active, devote his time to his best creation. But his privacy was more important to him.

$400 billion business deals between Russia and China in 2014 and $350 billion business deals between Saudi Arabia and USA were done by bank-wire transfers [digital payments]. Gold maybe involved.

"I'm sure that in 20 years there will either be very large transaction volume or no volume." -- Nakamato Satoshi

if you are looking for something perfect without any downsides and 0 problems then don't look for it in this universe. what you are seeking is not found anywhere but in an alternate universe!
what we have is imperfect systems that we try to turn into a better system as best as we are capable of. sometimes you have to give up some things to gain some others. if you centralized things you can have the same TPS and even more than Mastercard's. but when you want decentralization you have to think about preserving that as best as you can when it comes to on-chain transactions. then we have other solutions for TPS such as Lightning Network which will give you that TPS that you so hope for.

This is the proof that Satoshi Nakamoto himself has a vision to Bitcoin. We don't know what will he be doing in the future with it since he immediately make his exit in the scene of cryptocurrencies.

I think theres also the reason why Ver made another Bitcoin fork is to follow the vision of Satoshi Nakamoto to Bitcoin.

I don't think Bitcoin was visionless, because I have read an article that Satoshi said, Bitcoin can go to sky high otherwise it will vanish. Though it was not a vision but still he thought bitcoin can go sky high! We are not competing with the banks. and why should we? Bitcoin and banks are different, We need both. One day bitcoin can vanish if countries continue banning this coin but banking system will not vanish ever.

You are right but keep a look on International transaction. Bank takes usually 1 to 3 days in international transaction but with bitcoin you can transfer funds within few times. For these transactions bank ask you for so many formalities but bitcoin there is no such formalities. For these transactions bitcoin is best options instead of banking.

If I learn what Satoshi ever said about a vision to Bitcoin above, he certainly has a big plan by creating the Bitcoin. He said "large transaction volume or no volume". It should be a very serious thing to know. Another Bitcoin fork may indicate the next plan. However, I am very enthusiastic to wait for another big surprise in Bitcoin and in crypto world as a whole.     

Satoshi showed more vision than everyone anticipated. He started out with small block sizes and he made provision for "block size" increases as and when it was needed. <That is vision>

He also knew that oversized block sizes was overkill, so he kept it small from the start, to prevent the Blockchain from being spammed with unnecessary junk! It needed to grow with adoption and also hard drive sizes & cost.

This is one thing that Satoshi was not, he was the vision master.  ;)

Bitcoin was far from perfect when it was launched but the vision is always there. Improvements or upgrades comes along as the vision is being pursued.

Having a low TPS volume means more scarcity,which leads to bitcoin having more value as a "store of value" type of financial asset.
The "look how many transactions per second can VISA and Mastercard perform!" type of discussion is old and pointless.
Satoshi Nakamoto had never trully believed that some day, bitcoin will become a global currency.

I'm not sure Bitcoin was ever intended to compete with Visa. It wasn't just designed as a payment system, but rather money, which is a far more impressive feat. I think this post by Satoshi (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=583.msg11405#msg11405) really gets to the heart of his vision.

Also, in theory, Bitcoin could compete with Visa. Lightning or some other off-chain mechanism that allows for exponential scale will be required, though. I recall reading that Satoshi actually included payment channels in the original Bitcoin client, but they were removed because they were insecure.


It's scarcity of the currency supply (the 21 million coin limit) that does that, not scarcity of transaction volume.

one thing is for sure about Satoshi he really did make a wave to start a tidal wave. let's give crypto some time, it's just starting to make an audience.

Of course Satoshi Nakamoto had a wonderful vision. If you read the mentality behind bitcoin and its Whitepaper you will understand what I am talking about. Bitcoin is doing well at the moment except that unscrupulous activities like scam, fraud and theft has been our major drawback. Bank transactions however, are the pioneersand of course the most prominent at the moment, but Bitcoin will catch up soon.

With that market cap, and still consider SN a visionless?

Entirely Wrong Idea, You may not have understood why is Bitcoin created in the first place that is why you are calling him visionless.

This might have been discussed alot of times but the whole idea to why was Bitcoin created is to simply contradicts whatever Banks, or other payment methods are. Especially that bitcoins transactions are anonymous.

Other than that you have a full control over your asset. No one will dictates you when you wanted to get your money or just store it.
Plus don't compare bitcoin which is a currency to a mode of payment like Mastercard

Satoshi for me is a very strategic guy he wanted to build an empire in which a certain government policy is not allowed.

lol, maybe you are right, i'm searching perfection in the wrong place. But think about it, it could be perfect if the main focus of the coin where to be the main transactions system. But after read all your comments looks like that wasn't the focus. At end only time can tell us what was satoshi's vision.

Hal (satoshi) already saw the need for "bitcoin banks" because he was aware on the fact that it would never scale on-chain to massive worldwide levels:


The good news is, LN turns out to be way better than what he predicted there.

When it comes to "banking the unbanked" and allowing poor people all around the globe to transfer value around, LN is the best there is to date. The people pitching you altcoins which will compete against centralized payment systems like VISA and so on, all on-chain, while remaining decentralized, are selling you a scam.

I'm not surprised if the OP called Satoshi Nakamoto vision less due to the scalability protocol of Bitcoin cause a lot of people are already against the protocol right from the get go in Satoshi mail archives. But, he understood why he choose a limit blocksize.

Centralized transactions yes

Bitcoin is not only crypto,we have almost 1800+ crypto currencies at the moment some have better properties than bitcoin so we can handle all the world's transaction with cryptos but not only with the bitcoin so in future new cryptos will evolve and people will start uses the appropriate cryptos for their needs.

There is still a lot that needs to be upgraded from bitcoin if we compare bitcoin with visa / MasterCard maybe it is still far away, but from that bitcoin is still very, very much able to grow, and may be able to exceed visa / MasterCard in the future.

Is Nakamato Satoshi the same as Satoshi Nakamoto?

I'd like to see the source of where he said that if you have it. It's an interesting quote. I've touched on something similar in a thread I made a while ago, in which I explained that we don't truly know which scenario is going to unfold in the future.


Anyway, I think that Satoshi had a vision and we're seeing it through, I don't blame him for disappearing. Also, just because he's not publicly here, that doesn't mean that he's not observing or posting/developing under a different name.

Satoshi is not vision less because he want the bitcoin network to be totally decentralized and most of the EOS,NEO etc that can process thousands of transactions per second are indirectly centralized because they rely on some validator nodes.

Here's the original quote:

People should really go back and read his old posts here on the forum. They provide a lot of insight into why Bitcoin was designed like it was.

As it turned out, the block size limit Satoshi added is a very important mechanism for generating the fees required to compensate miners. Without some mechanism to disincentivize spam and drive fees up, we would have a tragedy of the commons situation, where everyone takes up block space without paying for it. That can't work where there is a limited supply of coins -- with each halving, miners get less and less subsidy. Eventually, they'll only get transaction fees. We need to incentivize miners to secure the network.

I don't think the first goal was to create a coin for transactions, most likely it was meant for private use

Yes, bitcoin processes fewer transactions than visa or mastercard, but it is anonymous and your funds belong only to you! And this is much more important than the power of the system, which will grow in the future. IMHO

Thanks to share the source from that satoshi's quote, but in that point he was talking about the mining rewards, lets remember the block reward get divided by half each X time, so, at end the block reward will be the transaction fees.



You have a good point here, maybe with bitcoin will be hard to compete with visa TPS, but with all the altcoins maybe is possible. Would be smart to develop an altcoin who allow 6Million of transaction/minute, that could be a nice competitor to banks, but can you imagine how huge would be that blockchain? 1Gb blocks  :P 

You're somehow right but the first impression behind bitcoin creation was fixing the financial problem which the government fail to do, make all man equal and to serve as the key to national liberation.   

With the full quote satoshi's vision is laser focused. It might now seem obvious but hindsight is 20/20.

Thanks squatter this is exactly the kind of post that deserves to be merited, doing legwork and offering insight as well, if I have any merit left I'll send you some.

I think no, i'm sure the founder "satoshi nakamoto" is still behind the current crypto condition right now and he has a roadmap for 10 years ahead.
I'm sure something big will happen when the time is right

Speed of the transaction in Bitcoin can be enhanced by upgrading. You forgot to mention that you need days if you are going  to transact in a bank for a certain amount and it can even freeze your account.

And not to mention the transactions weren't taxable since it's borderless and all we just pay is for the blockchain fee. I think nothing is more amazing than bitcoin. IMO, transaction shouldn't be a big deal thus what matter is our anonymity which make it unique.


Neither of the two can happen and nobody is certain what is more likely to happen in the future. Let's not spoil everything, why don't we just groove whatever bitcoin can give us.  8)

We always compare bitcoin versus banks since this is the best thing that we can be comparative and show how and what is the edge of bitcoin over banks. The idea was uniquely design that's far beyond our expectations.

Yes, for me this is the biggest obstacle for bitcoin to become a global currency, transaction speed.
Unless the blocktime of bitcoin reduced, i think peoples will prefer to use another crypto to pay something faster.

I know they can freeze my acount and as you say, some transactions take days, but at end the number of transactions they do are massive and not comparable with bitcoin.


There are two solutiosn, the first one is like you say, blocktime reduction, that would provide more transactions confirmed in the same period of time, the other way is bigger blocks, this way we could have more transactionsin one block. But at end the solution is to mix this two options, bigger and faster blocks, but again, that will end in a huge blockchain and not sure if we want that.

I think he just want to create a new way of payment system in the world, at least peoples won't need to use fiat currency anymore.
Satoshi opened the way from creating cryptocurrency, and developers nowadays perfect it with creating the other altcoins which have faster TPS, cheaper fee than bitcoin.

Bitcoin was introduced to the people in 2009 and it is now been a decade after its introduction and is considered as the most finest and the most innovative invention as before no other currency is so sustainable and so beneficial that is able to provide such a great profit in very short span of time and SATOSHI NAKAMOTO is considered as the inventor of bitcoin, though nobody has met him yet and even saw him but he used to communicate with its investors through social networking sites and ones in my life I would like to meet him.