Bitcoin Forum

It all started so innocently. Why not give crypto a try? All the guys at work are talking about it. Shitcoins, ICOs, Tethers, Smart Contracts. You wanted in. It was the Next Big Thing, you fucking idiot.

So you put a little money in the crypto market in 2018. How do you feel today? Portfolio in the red. You don’t even want to look at it. Hodl, they all said. It will come back after the FUD, they all said. And now you’re numb, and depressed, and can’t even afford a bottle of Jack to drown out the pain.

You’ve learned (hopefully) that hodling is bad.

Hodling is like prayer. A lot of people may believe in it, but it doesn’t fucking work. Your assets aren’t protected by God, and they do not respond to the intensity of your beliefs. No matter how hard you believe, crypto-assets just do whatever they do. The market and the universe remain indifferent to your convictions.

In the world of poker, there’s a saying: “If within the first 10 minutes, you can’t spot the sucker at the table, it’s you.” So you’ve been pwned by crypto, Mr. or Mrs. SmartyPants. Somebody else is having a nice Christmas this year with your (actual) money.

But every failure is a learning experience. Hopefully you’ve learned something too. Most successful investors eat shit at the beginning. You know why? Because the ones you’re trading against have already eaten it, and they know how to avoid the same mistakes.

Stop Wasting Your Fucking Time

The biggest mistake most amateur “investors” (actually gamblers), make is to fail to value their own time. Like that guy at the office who always boasts that he’s up big money at the weekly poker game. If he had been installing Ikea furniture in his spare time, he’d probably have more money, and at least not be in liver failure from the constant drinking. This is not an investment strategy. It’s just work. In the gambling world, they call it “grinding.”

At a certain point, having more money doesn’t buy you the one thing you will continue to value above everything else: your time. This is precisely the difference between an investor and a gambler: and investor values their own time. A gambler doesn’t. Now, if you’re a degenerate fucking gambler, please, continue to check the crypto market every 5 minutes, and hodl like your life depends on it. There is always an inside straight that you can draw towards.

Go ahead. We’ll wait.

3 Kinds of Stupid

I don't like to generalize, but I’m going to do it anyway.  I think that there are essentially 3 kinds of people in the crypto market right now: Hodlers; Panic Sellers; and Traders.

Despite what you’ve read on Reddit, it’s not really a complicated science. Why do you think Wallstreet is run by a bunch of frat bros who could barely balance a checkbook before they were entrusted with a slide rule, your grandma’s pension fund, and a fat baggie of Colombian cocaine? Trading is fucking simple. Buy low. Sell high. Rinse. Repeat. The less emotional, the better.

Trust me, I’m an economist. We’re never wrong.

Because it’s not a complicated science, I made a simple backtest that shows the difference between a holding "strategy" (that's not a strategy) and a super simple trading strategy (ie: an actual fucking strategy). I didn't consider panic sellers simply because they’re idiots, who never make the right decisions. Never panic sell! Actually, do not buy crypto, fiat, or stocks if you are driven by fear. And most people are driven by fear.

My assumptions start from an investment of $13,000 made in January 2018 when BTC-USD price was $13,000 and therefore you would have had a balance of 1 full Bitcoin. Awesome, let's see how the two investors would end their 2018!

Holder (I really hate the word Hodler as I really hate your species):

You’re basically a flat Earther, Tesla Model 3 loving, over-paid, under educated, millenial dumbass. That’s you. You lost 76% of your capital in less than a year. Good job, idiot. Go on Twitter and tell your friends to do likewise. Maybe next year will be the year. Or not. Delete your account. 

Trader:

It's been a hard year, but you made it. You have a strategy that includes stop-losses and sets a profit appetite. You set 10% stop losses so you sold your BTC when the price was $11,700. You bought again when the price dropped to $10,000 so you had 1.17 BTC now (still not profitable but better than before, right?). So you felt confident and kept placing orders to sell and to buy strategically. If you did as I did, you should find yourself in the table below.


Yes, I am 10.97% up right now. Yes, I made profits during a bear trend. Yes, I am not the only one (whoa!). How I did it? I spent no more than 10 minutes per day in front of my laptop and used a trading bot to place orders as I wanted. "As I wanted" means "as I meant to trade" and not "as a friend of a friend told me when I was drunk in a pub".

Managing your wealth these days is a question of doing simple homework, and not listening to bullshit.  Stick with a strategy, do not panic, and (especially) have the right technology to execute it all. If you think that you can outsmart Goldman Sachs with your excel spreadsheet downloaded online and suggested by an investment "Guru", I have a bridge to sell you. Anyone who sells you their investment advice isn’t smart enough to play the market themselves. You’re the one getting played instead.

In 1613, my hero, and the first real economist Antonio Serra said that the quality of people is one of the key factors that will determine the wealth and poverty of a nation. The quality of the people is mainly determined by their common sense and by their ability to survive during difficult periods. You, holder, are the ruin of a beautiful ecosystem. You are the curse of Bitcoin economics. You, holder still have time (maybe) to change your stupid mind, even just to try and to demonstrate to yourself that you can be smarter.

STOP HOLDING, TRADE.

I love you.

Good job!
Yeah I think trading is much better than holding , the important thing is the capital , You have started with 1 bitcoin and that's the point , The main capital could decrease the risk of trading if it is much enough , if not you need to look forward to bigger percentages and that could cause more risks , I hope you success in that trading way!

Trading is better for those who can trade it, but for those who can not do it? they will not make it. And about hold and not to hold, it is about your style and strategy.
technically, when you are jumping into something in your real life. You would not expect something in a single day, right? Holding is like running a business, at first you are going to see what will happen to your business and then make a goal based on it.
in the end, you can not force something that is out of their way. people have a different kind of strategy and mindset, they might do not really care about what is going on with our current price right now because they put something that is basically nothing to them and would expect it to go zero at any moment.

when you have something bigger other than your trade right now, and you can live with it. why would you care about something that is nothing for you?

"Holding is like running a business".... that is going to fail miserably.

That's complete crap! If you run a business you need the mindset of a trader.

Thanks for you opinion, sometimes it's really frustrating to see your portfolio is going down because you hold.
At the start of the year 2018, that was really good although there is a little dump but it's not consistent but up to this date our portfolio is down 80% or more that is because of holding.

So, did I regret it? Yes and No, there's a regret of course because it's a big dump especially if we are investing a big money. But, crypto is just a risky kind of investment and I was able to enjoy the 2017 by holding and I don't mind dying this year because of holding also.

But, I don't want to judge anyone, let's make an action base on our own decision so there is nothing to blame.

For some people who do just put up money and forget it then those are people who do have lots of money and just making a testing phase but i would say that 90% of people who do put up money do really always matter on how to make profits by means of investing.It isnt easy to ignore on such amounts either it would be already big or small on other people or not. We do really have different mindsets when it comes to investments and
that is true thats why each decisions would really be different. We might criticize about hodling but we cant blame why they have done such thing. We do have different insights on all sorts of things.

Ehhh....I don't believe you on that one unless you prove it.

Some holders look stupid now, depending when they bought in.  The ones from 2010 will look pretty damn smart; those who bought in at $20k will look like suckers.  And if bitcoin were to spike to $10,000 tomorrow, that would change the perspective quite a bit.

Having said that, buy-and-hold with crypto has never sat well with me like it does with other investments, like stocks that pay good dividends and when said dividends can be reinvested.  The whole crypto market is more like a casino than it is a stock exchange, and there does seem to be a hell of a lot of emotion involved with crypto traders--they hold on well past the point of ever hoping to make a profit in markets like this.

But you never know.  If we start seeing some upward momentum, hodling might in retrospect turn out to be the smart thing to do.  Could happen, you know.

Its invariably what works for one, be it trading or hodling,not one of them comes out well every single time, and in my opinion there is no need picking one above the other
It's down to what every individual can handle in terms of skills,capital,time frame etc

Some dudes have earned a lot from hodling you know,they sure wouldn't subscribe to your info,others have seen their investments go to scratch,thats what trading is all about,i cant pick a winning formula if you ask me

Fair enough. How shall I demonstrate it?

This is like one hard, throat paining, bitter truth most people in crypto including myself don't want to hear. But hey, you just had to tell it not minding whose ox is gored. My major take away from the painfully lengthy post was CAPITAL PRESERVATION , which can hardly be achieved with hodling. Capitals have been drained by the bears market and many in the name of hodling have lost everything to the market that's designed to take from you, except you're wise enough to take from it.

It's not just trading, it's about circulating the coins within the ecosystem. That can be achieved through trading as well as through merchant adoption. HODLers are simply hoarding the coins into their coffers which are not helping anyone. If we want to see growth of crypto, we should be spending instead of hoarding it. The more it circulates within the ecosystem, the more prominent it becomes to create a value for it.

So the correct word is not just "Trading", instead it should be "circulating!"

You're now on the right path, and it is very good to admit errors.

Errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum

I do agree with you. Trading and Circulating can have the same meaning.

Apply the same strategy during different market and you might be on loss. Only because your trading strategy in specyfic market situation gives you better return than holder strategy (no strategy in my opinion too, or dumpass strategy) dasn't makes you better than others. Same strategy in 2017 would give you worst returns than hodlers strategy.

2017 was hodlers year. 2018 was traders year.

And now you came here with your 10% return in 2018 making fun out of hodlers who made 1000% in 2017.

Dont get me wrong. I also think that hodling is the riskiest and worst strategy (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4456137.msg39881422#msg39881422) but i also don't think that your super simple 10 min daily strategy is the best and optimal one only because it gives 10% per year in current market.  

BTW 10% during whole year made by last 3 trades from 10% loss is not the reason to be proud off.

Look, I invested money into crypto before 2017 and I can tell you that if you apply the same principles (upside-down) during a bullish period you could have scored more than the 1000% in 2017.

Moreover, mine was a provocation to tell that nobody should hold and pray. You need to allocate time to your investment so you can achieve much better returns.

Running any business and hodling the Bitcoin. Both of them are not the same things and are very different. Besides, HODL in the bear market is a good strategy. DO watch some good videos by famous Bitcoinners.

I’m trying to find the words to tell you that you are stupid without really saying it. Can you suggest some videos on this topic too?

Ignorance is an issue that might be solved. Your stupidity can’t be solved, you need to cap with it.

Its really possible to make money not just in bull market in a bear season but it might takes some experience which you obviously have by learning how to play with the market. As for those HOLDer's I guess that's their strategy and I don't see anything wrong with that. If what fits your goal, as others don't have the time to trade and would rather just purchase and look for the long haul. There's also one thread around, wherein he/she was able to get in before the price exploded and the one thing common with you guys is that you both do your homework and didn't listen or ask for financial advises from people around this forum.

I might agree with you. For me, holding sucks because a lot of people telling you to do it and also a lot of people are following it and it resulted to a lot of loses.

What happens when you are at lose in a game? Imagine you bought bitcoin when the price was at $15,000 and now the fall to $4,000 will you sell? Get this, the hodlers today are the potential millionaires tomorrow and not traders like us. I have been into this game of trade and at the same time a hodler but these two are good and my favorite is HODL, so i prefer to HODL than to trade at risk. Trade Bot signals are now attempt by the developers  to get more innocent traders to trade for their benefits.

You write this from the perspective of investors who invest in 2018, or in late 2017. No doubt that those people feel bad, or perhaps deceived/scamed, but they just invest in bad time. If some of them invest for long-term (5-10 years) they are good today, altogether does not matter that markets are in red or it will be in next years. Only people who panic and sell can now complain about the lost money.

On the other hand there are those smart hodlers who knows to read some basic of the crypto market (accumulation, pump, correction) and profit from that.

Let's take a example of person who own 1 BTC in December 2017 and that person buy that BTC for 1000$. If that person sell then he/she will made very nice profit, but even if option was to hold until today the loss still does not exist.

Now we know that the smartest move would be that 1BTC is sold for 20 000$, take 5000$ for some good things and 15 000$ for future investment. Few days ago you could buy 5 BTC for that money and wait for next bull run.

You have said the truth, because the Bitcoin Hodl and Hodl crypto are not good for trade, they may think too positively and make them regret, the decline in bitcoin prices is proof that the Hodl is not good for trading strategies, it is better to do daily trading and if busy with real work can hire a trading bot and I say thank you for reminding me and the other traders.

we need courage in trading, large capital in trading does not determine success, there needs to be a detailed study of price movements, because with sufficient knowledge can make us avoid big losses. there should be a price benchmark for us, where we can get a clear picture of potential increases in the future.

This is the biggest problem that many of the younger or less inexperienced traders need to understand. Certain downfalls of the bitcoin and/or crypto market are not the end of the world, and long term investors will most likely not result in a long term financial loss for them.

S good knowledge of the crypto environment helps, but theres no reason to start panicking, as that's really the only reason BTC and other crpyto has dropped so much in the last few months/weeks. Smart trading is usually the best method of gaining capita as it takes advantages of boths ups and downs of the market. Though panic selling is what kills the market, as well as the community as a whole.

Lol, I kept laughing while reading this didn’t your friends tell you that you’re meant to invest what you can afford to lose? Why would you invest all you have in cryptocurrency, didn’t you read about it to know the risks involved? Google is right there and you should have made some research to know exactly how it works. It is not free money and here is no guarantee you will make money, you either go broke or succeed.

That's a very toxic mindset, but unfortunately, what people subject themselves to due to their stupidity. OGs buy in because of the whole idea behind it and that motivates them to hodl through any market cycle effortlessly.

It requires a long term view, but it's one that will bring in the real growth instead of people desperately trying to swing trade without success. It's almost like gambling for them. After a loss they try to win it back but lose even more....

There is no "free money" left to be made like was the case last year. The bubble popped. It really didn't matter what coin you bought last year, it went up a lot. Everyone suddenly became an expert at that time. Now nothing is left of that.

Don't even think that you can easily just use trading bot for reminding you to do buy/sell on cryptocurrency, because when it makes the mistake you will be insta-regret for what you have done without thinking before doing anything.

What OP is telling is the true facts about trading, Never lover any stock or coin, as in long it will always give pain. When ever their is profit just book it and wait for the coin price to go down and then buy back. The good coin always go up and down so this way you can make profit and increase your volume of invested investment.

I feel and this is what I have heard from the successful people who work around the Bitcoin and in blockchain that it is the time of disparity of course but it will end soon and Bitcoin will raise again.

I’m sorry, those people deceived you. I can’t tell anybody about Cryptocurrency without letting them know that price will still drop some day and might even drop at the moment they buy it. Last year when there was bull run, my friend discovered I was making profit from cryptocurrency and he wanted to buy, but I warned him that if he’s going to buy, he should also be aware that price might drop at anytime.

That must be the right advice anyone could give to their friends with respect to investment.
We should not take responsibility for their investment actions but we need to make them understood what they are doing so that they will act responsibly and will be ready to accept whatever the consequences will be. Because, how people will be reacting in positive market will be completely different from negative markets.

As far as I have experienced, holding must be the right way of doing with the respect to cryptocurrencies. You may go for buying and selling some coins time to time and will be making some good returns for your efforts. But, that will not be up to the level those who are continuously holding for years. Yes, those continuously holder will be getting more profits compared to what you do get from your active trading. It is true is that holding is the best way to find the maximum in cryptocurrencies.

All the people who are all finding themselves into problems due to holding bitcoin, will find themselves relaxed and profitable once bitcoin will be hitting new ATH. That may happen by end of 2019. Be confident and continue your holding. That must be the right way of doing right now.

Sound like crazy! I have losed almost 70% of my capital by hodling only. I never bothered to trade or sell and it was my bad luck. My mistake was I had not used stop loss and didn't think to sell on loss but eventually I losed too much. Then I decided to start trading in order to recover. I have recover few and remain will recover soon. If I never decide to trade then now my balance would be 90% less. So that's the reason I don't like to love any coin or token. Just sell then when you have profits. Hodling Bitcoin never mind but hodling alts are too risky, very hard to recover Bitcoin. It's better to buy on dip if possible then hold for dew time. Don't hodl for longer.

Unfortunately, statistics show that on average over the long run you have a much better chance to profit if you hold vs if you trade. Timing the market is hard.

To be trader or hodler both will promising good profit if we know when to start,  understanding trend of market and should be has target profit. In the beginning of 2017 is best times to be holder , and by to see price of all crypto that dumped hard can be its times to be holder and later in 1 or 2 year we will make alot profit.

we'll see, things like this are not the first time this happens, a holder is blamed and is considered an act of stupid or idiot. this will improve again.

Yeah, you're right. Trading is 100% safe and profitable than holding. If someone learns to trade with his best efforts and works accordingly, then his success will come. So nowadays trade is the best.

There are coins that are good to hold and there are also coins that are good in day trading. I do not agree to what you said because not all of times trading are safe. We cannot conclude easily that trading is more safe than holding due to lack of data.

What i think is, holding can be more profitable than trading so i do not really agree with what OP says. HODLING can surely give us the freedom to see the profits grow in front of our eyes as the crypto markets have an estimate to grow multiples times as it is now in the future. Any of the altcoin can surely grow if we HODL for atleast a year.

Hodling is a good strategy! Day trading is only for the people who have good technical analysis. If people doesn't have good trading skills then he/she can probably lose his/her money. Hodling is effective especially if we will hold coins that are valuable and have potential in the market.

Holder hasbeen make alot of profit if they started in 2015 to 2016 and sell it in the end of 2017. But since the beginning of 2018 untill in the beginning 2019 holder has been lossing much money. Actually to be holder still promising high profit if we start now and hold it for 1 or 2 years. So the problem is we have to know when should be started and ended by know the trend of market and price of BTC.

I think he should learn from the mistake and realize that every investment, not just in crypto, has a big risk and we can lose all the money we have in any second. The big mistake with those people out there is they become greedy when they see the price increase so high and makes them think "Oh boy, I should buy that coin before it's higher".
So he uses his power to buy but suddenly, the price fall to deeper price, and he is angry because he makes a mistake.

Can't disagree more with this, and while we are at it, agree more with OP

Provided it was written by him of course. Holders since 2010 are just as stupid as who are the ones since December 2017. The difference between them is that the former were lucky while the latter not so much. And no, that wouldn't change the perspective even a little bit if the price went to 100k tomorrow. How come? Because traders have already multiplied their startup capital x1000, and I mean relative to the lucky holders, not unlucky ones or their initial investment in the market

Very good explanation but I'm sorry everyone has their own decisions, specially holder like me. I chose to hold because if I cut loss many value will gone from my wallet, I only except good situation for cut loss. If my decisions make you not happy that's your problems but I know many people will have same opinion like me. This is market like or not you should have back up plan, trust me about that.

I HODL Bitcoin because is a great hedge against traditional assets and it appreciates over long periods of time  

HODLing is a long investment till the price go up higher than the initial purchase. A year is still not enough for HODL, especially if the price if getting down again and again. You may say the opposite think if the price boost significantly in a year like what happened during 2017. Indeed at the current market situation, trading is the only way to make profit although it is still hard to make it but the chance to get profit is still better than HODLing.
Good to see that you are still in profit so far, do what you like to do and let others do what want too. No need to talk something bad for those who do not do the same with you.

I made a mistake with my wife it is true. We made money in 2016 and 2017 doing crypto jobs, we never invested a penny from our own pocket. We lived on the blockchain and still living on the blockchain today, but yes all the coins we could have sold in January 2018, tanked thereafter so we lost 99.9% from the value of our portfolio. We now have to resort to also day trading to survive, just hodling does not work anymore. You also need to know a lot about the coins and tokens you do want to hold long term so that when there is big news, you need to sell at ALL TIME HIGHS, then on the retrace, purchase again. We learned from this mistake now and are slowly picking up the pieces. Technically, we are still in profit because we were able to live off of crypto for the last two and a half years but we have no savings and our working capital is small, but now my wife day trades, we are able to cream off the exchanges some eth daily, even though we are still in a prolonged bear market. We are frugal in our daily living so, for now, we will focus on trying to grow the trading capital and then invest in a few good projects also for long term growth, hodling that is some good coins.

I don't think you can equal trading to circulating for the purposes mentioned

The correct reference frame would be real value versus speculative value. In this manner, trading doesn't add so much to real value (though it still looks better than dumb holding at first glance) as it adds to speculative value. So while I agree that "circulating" is the right term but I can't possibly agree with your inclusion of trading in it. Even from a purely technical point of view, trading doesn't involve much circulation as 99% of it takes place without traded coins leaving an exchange

For most people trading means losing their coins instead of just the virtual $$ value in case you firmly hold your coins. People make trading look like an easy way to make money, but that obviously isn't the case. I'm sure that most of them have never traded even a small portion of their portfolio.

If you look closely at the charts, market movers are frequently exploiting the thin books to wipe out positions on both sides of the book, so even if you are doing all the analysis beforehand, you are still subject to market movers trolling their way into profits. I wouldn't recommend anyone to trade right now, and if you do anyway, accept being the losses that come with it.

It's better to lose virtual $$ value than actual coins.

I don't quite understand what you mean by this

If I got you right, you mean that people buy or sell coins and end up with less coins than if they didn't trade at all, right? If so, it doesn't in the least mean anything. As Bitcoin is by far more volatile that the American dollar (not even speaking of other cryptocurrencies), in general it's not correct to gauge one's trading performance by considering their balance in bitcoins or altcoins

In this way, you may actually end up with less coins but if your balance grows in US dollars (let's admit this is exactly what most of us are looking for and dreaming of), it is not what losses stand for. And it is still more so in a downtrend market as at any moment you can buy more coins with your dollars than before (if you choose so, of course). As long as your balance is improving in dollars, it's okay

This is the prime motto of long-term holders. OP is simply listing out prices from $13k but who knows that at those times bitcoin will be falling down further rather than expecting a reversal toward a new ATH around $25k. I mean to say trading is really a hard one and there will be no surety to make more bitcoins (or those virtual money). But holding assures me that I will be having plenty of chances to have $40k or $100k in coming months.

In my opinion trading bitcoin is just a gambling because you may lose some price movements to cover if you plan for buying-back kind of strategy for your trading whereas holding assures peace of mind. This is the big benefit of long term holding. We can make big profits along with peace of mind if we opt for long term holding.

Well, I'm as investor prefer holding because as I know, bitcoin is volatile investment.
It means that if you have more bitcoin, you can move the market so I'm prefer to hold in long term and it's proven profitable !

Will continue hold until few years ahead

Categorically my investment on in digital currency is solely based on longterm hold because in year 2017 i hold some fractions of bitcoin when the market was still growing but in few months later i could not believe my own very eyes. The power of a HODLER is pretty mush higher than that of a trader even though the trader get daily gains but he/she also incur some looses. OP, my advise to you is; ensure you secure a little portion of bitcoin for the future, thanks!.

I am not getting the point of OP on what reason he is hating the holders ? I mean holders are not influencing the negative markets in any means hence there will be no reasons to hate them. If there will be no long holders then bitcoin might have been trading less than $100 or $50 levels due to heavy selling pressures.

It is your personal decisions but I foresee that you may miss out million dollar levels. Yes, I may sound like kidding but time will answer. Because when people speculated about $5k or $10k by 2012, no one was ready to believe that.

If you really want to "move bitcoin" than you need to hold a lot of bitcoins. Maybe atleast some 10% to 20% of the total circulated bitcoins so that than you can manipulate the price of bitcoins by creating huge buy/sell orders. I don't really think thay if you hold bitcoins in decimals than it would affect the price for bitcoins anyhow. But yet holding bitcoins can make you earn money as the demand is predicted much more higher in the future which will draw the price for bitcoins to a greater extend.

You are the type of trader (investor) who OP calls motherfucker

Note that it is not me who is calling you so but I agree with him in the sense that you (I mean long-term holders like you) are basically cannon fodder for the market (read, traders). If you want to be like that, more power to you. And I don't really know what kind of "peace of mind" you are talking about here

Of course, if you are a multimillionaire (and closer to a billionaire than a simple millionaire at that) buying a couple bitcoins here and there at whatever price won't make you lose that peace of mind (though it still depends). But if you poured into Bitcoin all your lifetime savings (or the best part of them), there is no room for such idea

Thanks for this.

I think that there is a complete misconception of "holding" and I believe that what the hodlers are trying to achieve is making "savings" for a brighter (unknown) future. Like a religion. "I will hold for a couple of years and see"... see what??

Holding should refer to a position that aims to be closed when some conditions are met. The same conditions that a trader sets before putting her/his hands on the markets.

The more I read the comments from the hodlers, the more I am convinced that they are making it the wrong way.

It is a little bit more complicated than that

When you read something like "I will hold for a couple of years and see", you should keep in mind that for the most part you are dealing with a sort of forced rationalization. Basically, the vast majority of the so-called holders are made into holders against their will by a sudden price crash. As the trading wisdom says, if you can’t take a small loss, sooner or later you will see the mother of all losses

And this is exactly what happened to these hapless holders, i.e. they were reluctant to take a small loss when there was still a chance to get off relatively cheap. And now all they can do is rationalize their actions by convincing themselves that they "will hold for a couple of years and see"

Trader been making more money with less risk than holder,  because trader is looking for the trend first,  if they predict the trend bullish, they will buy some good coin and after target profit reach they will sell it.  And in bearish trend,  they also can make money by shorting Bitcoin in margin  trading. But holder always get loss when bearish trend.

Wait Deisik, some of us hold for more than couple of years, some of us are in bitcoins much longer. My first bitcoin was at 170 dollars, do you think the bear market from last year touched me hardly? Even OP started from 13000 dollars, that price was in January, February last year? So a guy hold about a year, more or less, and you compare him with me?
They don`t have other option than hold. It`s the best thing to do for people who bought in wrong time. Amount of bitcoins bought in wrong time should be putted on a side, add more money, wait for good moment to buy bitcoins for trading and start trading.

the holder if the hold is a coin that has the potential like ethereum or bitcoin might be a good thing. but if the one held is a coin that does not have potential I think it will make a loss and it doesn't have to be done,

I very much agree with your opinion, in these moments the smartest thing is to maintain, to be a holder! Many have not realized that we are in the best phase of the market to buy and maintain, I am sure that whoever does this, will be a new next millionaire. If in my hands I had the opportunity to have a Bitcoin, I would keep it for years if necessary, the bitcoin will give a jump higher than $ 20k, $ 20k is just a roof.

I thought it was obvious that I referred to those who bought at prices significantly higher than the current. This is the premise which you should take into account before drawing any conclusions. In other words, if you bought at 170 dollars, you don't fall into this category, so you simply can't compare yourself with these hapless bagholders. Well, in fact, you can but this is not what I meant

As this is not my point here

Yes, you are correct that hodling is not a good idea but trading is also not a good idea as the market being manipulated by whales can lead to losses as we don't when the market can go up or down but surely it is much better than hodling.

Hodling shitcoins with the hope of them rising is something that should not be done, though 1 in 10 of such coins may turn out to be very good in the future, but making the right pick is definitely the issue
But with that being said that's the reason why it's adviced to diversify, so you could hold both the ethereum, bitcoin and other promising coins as well as not so promising ones.
Hopefully in the future some or most of them could earn you a large amount of money

It depends on the plan and strategy we used. No matter if you want to hold or trading, if you can accept the risk, then you can choose one or both at the same time. But you will need to realize that holding and trading is not easy, and we need to be patient. I am not sure that the whales always manipulate the market and I think not all whales can get a profit because maybe there will be a whale that is not doing anything and only watching the price to go up and down every day.

If strategy 1 works for Peter, doesn't mean it goes well with John. If one does not good in trading but does well with hodling, then it is fine. As long as he still gain profits out of it. Some are failures in the field of trading but gain success as a long term/short term investor. Or vice versa.

Explain your point, maybe I didn`t understand what you wanted to say, no harm I believe. I wanted to say that we can`t be forced on something. We always have a choice, talking generally, to invest and trade with investment, to hold from beginning, when price going down to hold and wait for investment to recover or to sell and cut loses. My point is that one person can`t blame others for any mistakes and bad investments, and what works for one maybe will not work for others.
Anyway I think this discussion is too general, every case is different and unique.

indeed holding back is not a good enough way to trade because holding it is for people who invest because waiting for the right time to release the coins he invests. so for trading, holding coins is not good but for a market situation like this it is a good way to prevent losses

The biggest mistake which people make in crypto is that do not buy when the market is Red and coins prices are low. When they see that coin prices are rising then they jump in the train which is only because of fear of missing out. Most of the time, they enter at the very top and once they entered, the big whales have already starting exiting the market. So those who enter in FOMO usually lose their money in this trade.

Its not a mistake but rather a normal thing to be felt of a certain investor because you would really hesitate to buy on a red market which you are fearing out that you might even suffer
even more deeper loss when the market tends to go dump much deeper.So, you are really hesitant to buy and only the ones who had the balls or risk takers will most likely be rewarded or make profits
when the market tends to reverse once again.

there is a lot of profanity used here and the topic is filled with naiveté! the fact that you simply categorize people as "hodler" and insult them shows you aren't really familiar with the term. you are confusing "bag holders" with "a long term investor".

a bag holder is someone who closes his eyes and buys any shitcoin that the group he is in is telling him to buy. sometimes it is a pump group, sometimes it is another bunch of newbies like himself, sometimes it is random things he reads among the advertisements. the result is a big loss above 90%.

a long term investor is someone who looks at potential and is not so willing to trust shady exchanges that can close down at any moment. he buys that potential while others are crying about why it is not rising. for example a good buy time was when price was between $900 and $1200 and everywhere you looked idiots were saying bitcoin is in a bubble and 2013 will be repeated because price is close to the ATH of that time. the result is becoming millionaires in a couple of years.

Trading is not really for everybody but one can learn how to make a living if he fails to trade then he must be good at long term investment. Sometimes you have to try as much as you can until you meet success and that's what the hard work pays off in time.

The problem of OP is that he does buy it in the wrong time and too excited to see the fluctuation to change so soon on his side yet the market is still on the bearish trend and nobody expected that but here we are and we have to deal with that.

Alot of holder loss much money ,because they just believe the price will keep going up and did not use any risk management. Price action of crypto really unpredictable and too high fluctiacion, no body predicted before if alot of altcoin dumped hard to 99%. So if we decide to become holder, we should be have enough risk management by cut the loss from wrong prediction.

Actually I like hodlers. Because of them bitcoin has a huge possibility to rise. They buy only once, they don't sell. So bitcoin has a global bullish trend.

I guess there are lots of casual investors that do that thing. One, as casual traders its hard to buy 1 BTC immediately, two, if this is your strategy then there are some serious flaws on it.

It's better to buy in dips and also you don't have to buy 1 full bitcoin. You can slowly accumulate it by buying when there is a dramatic fall until such time you can have that 1 bitcoin you have dreamed off.

It looks like we can in fact be

For example, if you bought bitcoins cheap (like at 170 dollars as you say yourself), you can easily sell your stash for a profit. But it is not the case with those who bought at, say, 20k (or anywhere above 10k, for that matter). And they are actually forced to hold as selling their coins right now would mean booking massive losses. In this manner, these people are made into bagholders against their will (as they were looking for profits, not losses, naturally). So they are forced to hold by low prices

When it comes to being an HOLDLER, the best approach in managing the risk involved is to invest money based on future profit and based on money you are not desperately in need of anytime soon. Most day traders don’t complain of all these fluctuations that much because that is exactly where they make money from which everyone is free to enter the market anytime as a trader.

I remember one of my friends that had little money at hand to roof his uncompleted building and when he heard of btc, he pumped the whole money into it expecting to double the money within few months till the money went as low as 10% of his investment. It is his fault because he failed to study the market thoroughly ad also know what to go in as, it would have been best for him to go in as a trader rather than as investor.

The is the main reason why investing in crypto currency should really be void of speculations without going for fact, most people invest using their instinct and not following strong analysis using FA and TA.

I remember when bitcoin rose to 10000 usd, a lot of people where rushing to buy based on speculation without fact that it will rise to 21k within the year till bitcoin crashed to 3k, those are the ones finding it difficult now to be patient having to wait for it to rise back to 10k before even thinking of making profit. If they had technically followed analysis, they would have known that bitcoin will definitely fall back while they wait to buy at deep. So I will say that it is their ignorance that forced them to hold by low price.

There is no investment in business on which there is risk. Remember for me in my perception you cannot be a good trader if you are not a risk taker. And being a risk taker it is a part of our success in the future to face this type of gambling business, in accordance to my understanding with it.

therefore most of the holders are many who get big profits that make them even richer. so to hold bitcoin is one way to get a big profit later because bitcoin is a good coin

Well, I have ready your points and I don’t see my experience in the crypto world as a waste of time mate. There is a difference between Long term investors and traders, Some people HODL their coins might see sense in your point especially the ones that don’t have much understanding about investing but a trader doesn’t see sense in this.

The crypto markets gives you free chance to choose between the 2, as an HODL, what do you expect, if you buy stock in a company, how many years do you have to wait before you can count profit, this is the case of HODL too which requires lots of patience.

If you cannot HODL, then trade, at least you are sure of an increase everyday no matter how little it is.  Your analysis shows upward trend of btc from 10000usd to 3000 usd but you forgot to also mention what happened some years back where btc grew from 0.1 to 10000 usd.

Everyone have their own opinion and you don't need to insult them for it, this is a free market the last I checked and anyone can do whatever he/she want to do, if a user of the community decides to hodl, I don't think it's good for you to discourage them in what they believe, and it's not also good for them to discourage you from what you believe.

If you think trading is better than hodling then trade those who believe hodling is better would hodl that's how things work here.

I believe some of us are specialized in one way or the other and holding is good for those that decided to go in a long-term and traders especially the day trading one may not like to hold as they only benefit from the small movement of price.

why can you say that holders are bastards?
they have their own principles and ways of trading.
the holder is the same as the merchant, I am sure as a trader you will also hold your coins, right?

I don't know why he said this one but im pretty sure he's holding a coin/s right now. Holding is a strategy, a provrn strategy that can benefit all of us due to volatility of the unideal market situation we are facing right now.

Of course, virtually everyone one in the crypto market is also a HODL because if you look at it, they trade with a portion of that particular coin they are holding and not all the coins. For me, I divide my coins, a portion for trading and another portion for holding which I know both of them pays me, the difference is that the trading own pays me daily while the HODL pays me in the long run.

For the fact that the author is not doing well in the crypto world based on his limited understanding doesn’t means other are not doing well, probably he entered the market at the wrong time and now all his money has gone low forgetting the fact that whatever goes up must come down.

Okay if trading is not a good idea and in the same time hodl is not recommended, then what is left ? Postpone or withdraw from the market ?

I think that if you are in for long term benefits, and not for daily trade, better keep on hodl for long term by which I mean hodl till the market recovers to the brink. Yes it is more of an ambiguity to predict the market but you know it works in a cyclical way and today’s fall will be tomorrow’s rise.

My advice wherever we invest will be where we profit and lose. Depends on how our patience is tested. I'm sure the price of bitcoin will increase again.

That's exactly what I did. For a long time I remained a holder, but soon I got tired of it. Now I am studying trade and I am very glad that I started doing it.

Might be he want to say that if you are holding means you are losing your value in this bear trend but for the long term holder it won't affect anything they can just keep holding their coins as long as they are afford and for sure they will be in profits after years.

I can't quite agree with this definition

You are basically describing the conditions for becoming a bag holder. But these are nowhere near comprehensive nor they are 100% correct in and of themselves. For example, if someone closes his eyes and buys blindly at random (or whatever the cause in the way you mean it), it doesn't necessarily mean that he is to book hefty losses. If the price is rising, he may in fact earn and not lose (and still manage to get out in time)

Further, if someone buys looking at potential, he is not exempt from becoming a bag holder either as he might just be wrong at correctly evaluating this potential. In this way, a bag holder is more of an individual who didn't accept being wrong at the right time when the loss was still manageable but who continued to hold instead, believing he "knew better". If you can’t take a small loss, sooner or later you will turn into a bag holder

Don't get tired but your idea is good to start trading.
Holding alone is so boring if you want some action, take advantage of the market volatility, learn how to be an effective day trader as more opportunity awaits on people who are consistent in trading, as for me, I'll remain a holder because I have my fix income from job.

OP just need to learn from his mistakes, for the fact that he has made mistake in entering the market at the wrong time doesn’t mean the market will not correct itself again, after all we are just talking about events that is barely 3 years when the whole BULL RUN and BEARISH thing came in.

Next time, he should use his analysis very well before investing at the particular time his instinct tells him to do so, he should blame his loss on his failed instinct instead of generalizing it and putting blames on things that his opinion will not change or make the market get better.

Holding and trading both are not 100% perfect and we cannot say that one is better than the other. Trading is for the experienced person who know who to gain money from trading. Holding can be done by anyone as he just have to buy the coins and hold them for long period and gain benefit from it. The important thing in holding is to hold only those coins which have strong projects behind them and have good position in coin market cap.

I totally believe you even though holding can be profitable it can also bring out a bunch of bullish results. Moreover most of the traders seems to hold this way but in the end they are just stuck with it because of the sudden situation they are in so they have no choice but to give up and hold it as much as possible until they recover but most of the time it doesn't recover what it has lost.

hold might be good to do, but I suggest holding a certain time. don't trust with long-term hold. now we can see if the market is unstable and this is a lesson for us to hold long-term holdings.

There are people who have been in the technology thing and they have been sharp enough to build business around this hub and this idea makes them money.

They do hodl their coins in the current market because they will get benefits from it in the long run. And since trading is really not recommended, the option open to you is to hodl. We have strong reasons behind why would the Bull Run happen this year so it is an opportunity to speculate and invest.

Yes holding is waste so long times even a few years, alot of newbies investor was decide to hold crypto in the beginning of 2018 without any risk management, so they getting loss much money. So trading or holding should be with risk management.

Even for the traders, it is a game changer for them during this bear trend and that is when they even make money more because the market becomes more volatile which will not affect short term trader that much too provided they have the right strategies.

Most short term traders are also involved in long term investment, what most traders do is to still buy at this deep and sell when the market becomes high for that they which they keep compounding till they make profit daily. It is only risky for short term traders when they are on margin trading and aside that, the market favors them both in short term and long term investment.

Daily profits is impossible yet the market wont move out on the expected point you are hoping.We know that it can dip or rise on a certain period of time.
It always been a challenge not only as a trader but also as a long term investor to accumulate coins on dip price since we wont able to know if this is truly the dip
or it can go through even more.

Trading is when you get in and go down or miss the boat, holding is when you are certain is youll recover with a profit WITH BTC not shitcoins.
Time and past is proof that btc will once again surpass its ath for a profit, it might take a year it might take three but it will happen, trading is when you expose yourself to be left when the ship has sail or buy on a spike as it happen with people buying at 10-20k, it was obvious its on  a spike and that youll lose money at short term but you cant say they are not probable to recover money in next few years.

Holding isnt a waste of time because when you hold , you didnt do anything . you can just leave your coins inside your wallet and continue your life outside the crypto scene . trading should be consider a waste of time because trading is an active  activity . you dont need any risk management when you hold because hodling is not risky as trading   and  as long as you chose the best coins  .

Trade is not something that is certain, so the market that is thought to be moving up turns out the price has dropped. Of course there are many who experience losses, even frustration and berate. In my opinion it's strange, because on the other hand there might be someone who experiences luck.
From this it can be concluded that profit or loss is not determined by others, but by self-decision where when there is a choice to sell or buy, it turns out that it is wrong to make decisions and losses. In my opinion it was not lucky, but on the other hand there might be luck.

I see HODLing as one of the easiest way to make money in the market. Just imagine you're not doing anything and just continue to buy in dips and wait for the price to go to another bullrun. The only downside, you need to be mentally resilient and tough not to sell. And even if you wanted to sell, you need to have a good timing to dump them when it's at the highest price.

Although there are two different result which individual can get from being a Hodler or a Trader. A hodler can make huge profits while hodl against the bull run while a trader can make profits on daily basis base on his/her vast knowledge on trading. Trade can generate profit of 2-4% daily for a good trader but looses for the amateur traders.

That's highly unlikely on a regular and consistent basis

Technically, you can generate so much profit with small amount (for example, via arbitrage) but if the question is about real money, the total majority of successful traders are making so much on a monthly basis at the best of times. Indeed, when the price is rising (or falling, for that matter), it is easy to earn money but you don't need to be a particularly good trader for that. It is a dead market (like recently) which reveals truly good and efficient traders which can catch fish in still waters

I believe that everyone in the market has their own strategies. Everyone approach and solves the knots in a different way. The investors who have been holding their coins since say 2013 have been hodlers and yes you might hate them but they have been benefited immensely by their decisions and have really made millions of dollars in the business in the cryptocurrency.

I don't know what sad experience you must have had in the past that made you take this disposition to hodling. Anyway, whatever it was I would like to correct that impression. Holding is like trading long term. You see? You can make huge profit hodling just like you can incur huge loss also like people do intra-day or swing trading.

Is mostly not about total HODL man You just need to analyze and make some serious changes according to the market and project My advice is study the process first and then work hard to get things actually done

It's good to post pictures with profit,when everything has already happened,bitcoin was constantly on a downtrend.What if it didn't fall all the time during the year? If after 10100 he jumped again on 11000-12000? What would the author do?You have to be a visionary...

And what percent of the profits would one make if one is hodling? I believe that long term hodling has a very big return as far as I have studies the success stories of the people who had invested at all time low.

But, not all who hodl have invested low. Many of them are the people who invested in Bull Run at a price more than $18k and are still hodling. It has been more than a year now and they are still hodling and might recover their money and might gain profits it the market value surged higher than the all time high in the history.

Many people find it very hard to speak positively, especially considering their problems after the investment at the end of 2017. If you really look at this problem, it becomes clear what losses many users of cryptocurrency are experiencing today.

Holding becomes waste of time only when one does not set his investment purpose right.  Most people that sees holding as waste of time are people that invested with the mind of reaping profit in a short period of time which the investor would have just opted in for market trading.

Holding is for investors that are very rich and can afford to overlook their investment for a very long period of time and yet still live comfortably in their world. Personally, I see any investment one expect to reap its profit in 2 years as an non-serious investment.

In my opinion, hodl is one of the best things those long term investors have done so far. It really is instrumental in adding big and huge value to the worth of your coins in long term because in the long term, the values of the coins jump up and vary by huge difference so yes hodl might not be a very good strategy for you in the short term but try out long term as well.

Yeap i agree with you. Who do not know about trade or fail and lost huge money,so this people only hold their asset but i think never be greedy and always fix a target profit when you fill the target profit sell.But people cannot sell and they want to more profit but finally, they get high lost.But i always think trade is better than hold.

Trading is a losing game for the majority of people.  If people all took your advice then the possible profits to made would shrink to practically nothing just like how the stock market became super efficient.  The truth is holding is a valid strategy for the majority of people that don't want the constant stress of day trading.

I have to strongly disagree on that.

if you don't have any strategy and patience in holding, of course holding will only waste your time and money, look at what happened last year, many newbies do holding without clear knowledge and strategies, then when prices fall and stay low in long time and then makes many of them give up and do cutlose, it is a form of waste time and your money

How can it possibly be a valid strategy?

And I'm not even sure what you mean by valid (or invalid) here, care to explain? A trading strategy can be profitable or unprofitable, and that's in essence all that counts and makes sense in the end. I don't know how it can be "valid" if it brings only losses, and for those who bought at anything higher than 10k, it is a losing game as of yet. So instead of daily stress these people received perpetual pain and suffering. Myself, I'd rather stick with the stress

I totally agree with you. My opinion is that too many crypto buyers (I don't dare to call them investors) don't understand why the prices of the assets go up or down. The words of the guy who's against trading strategies are the words of someone who doesn't even know what an exit strategy is or how an hedging strategy works... sad

The problem is what people are being told. Some people that lost their money in bitcoin today, it wouldn’t have happened if they were given the right information. Some of them just hopped in because they thought that bitcoin is a place for a quick money, but what they met was different . When giving information to people , it’s best that we let them know the risks involved in cryptocurrency, it’s not just about making profit , you can as well lose your money . So if you’re hodl, then do so what you can afford to risk.

I think you’re not getting what he’s trying to say. It’s not everyone of us that knows how to trade , so there are lots f people that lose their money in trading because they don’t know how to trade, it happens to a lot of people everyday. Hodl is a way out for those that don’t know how  and wouldn’t like to stress themselves much with all the stress and risks that comes with being a day trader. Day trading is good if you know how to trade at least you will be making profits on a daily , unlike Hodl where you will have to wait for like months or even up to a year.

Holding is not a strategy.

Assuming that you buy and hold but don't know how to trade, how can you possibly exit your investment? The majority of the shitcoins are not exchangeable for fiat... so what will you do? Go on facebook and post a stupid question? Maybe your smart cousin will help you? The sad truth is that you don't even know what an exit strategy is, that's why you consider the mere holding as a strategy.

Majority of them do really have this kind of mentality or in short doesn't really have much idea on what they are doing with trading which they do simply put up money and wait for the outcome
either it would be a loss or profiting one.

Some would really be just dragged out with they hype when they do saw lots of people been profiting without even realizing that it isn't really that simple or it doesn't work that way to easy.

They are still same people coming on this platform to pour their anger because of their lack of knowledge, strategy and patience, instead of them to learn from the older ones on how they were able to manage through all the storms they went through before bitcoin reaches its ATH last time.

When did they invest that they would not let the peace of bitcoin be, we have some matured investors that would even buy shares in a company in the real life, leave it there for even up to 30 years before they even think of asking about it, which they don’t usually regret after going back to it. So, we really need to be patient for our investment to really grow by holding.

Complete crap.

Do you promote some sort of shitcoin so you need to say that?

I think we do not need to worry about HODLING if the investment is intended for long term. This is important to understand because where HODL could be a reason of loss for many investors, it could be a savor for those who HODL to regain their losses. SO regardless of the market situation, you should HOLD if you either intend big profits or you expect recovery.

I think that the word holding is now confused with some sort of religion... Again, that comment is complete crap

Whales manipulate the markets through OTC (over the counter) exchanges. It is a very good idea to hedge risk of volatility by trading. Especially nowadays....

If both are not good idea, then what are you doing in the cryptocurrency market then, because for you to belong here, you can either do any of the two or you do both, and one or two of these has actually paid out for those that have developed some strategies for it.

For holding, there is no strategy other than for you to wait of the time there will be profit on your investment, and that is why it is called investment, investment usually take some times for any investor to start getting result of it and I don't think bitcoin has stayed too late for anyone to start getting return even in 3 year’s time. Trading pays for those who are not patient for long term investment and those who know how to, it is when we don’t know how to trade that we see it as rubbish.

Post the proof in screenshot format. It is difficult to believe that you managed 20% to 25% profits on 7 consecutive occasions. Even hardened traders having decades of experience would not be able to do that. In my case, my record winning streak was 3 straight profitable trades, of around 5% profit. 4th gave me a loss of 5%. 7 is a bit too hard to believe.

We all have perspectives in life specially when it comes to our “Own Money” we don’t care about your strategy so care nothing about ours as well

Yeah you are a good trader but it is not for all people,and holding is not like a prayer because religion has nothing to do with your point

Instead holding is like a Gambling that in some instance needed luck and just like a gambler Being a Holder o risk my money and time for this so if failure comes its me and my decisions who made it and not random people like you

But I respect your prerogatives but please respect holders as well

This is actually true and this is why we do see some people who do risk out to trade since they do know the advantage of shorting or trading up their coin on a short span of time.

Trading does give out the opportunity on making money without the need of waiting up for how many months or years before you can profit on but somehow being a hodler isn't that bad yet its always been a personal choice of ours.

Hodling is a great idea if you know when to buy. OP said he or she bought in 2018 and is now in the red. I bought Bitcoin in 2018 and ETH in 2019 and both my investments became very profitable. It's another proof that you should never generalize. Those who gave the advice to buy and hodl did it to help OP not to prank him.

Well it's not easy for everyone though. Which people can't trade like you they tried to hold it for a good profit when it's going up. And trading with bot i prefer for not to do it. Cause may be you find your way couple of times but not every times. So if need to trade it's better your own way. If people want to hold for long time i agree with it besides yes trading is the best option for me too.  ;) ;)

I know trading will bring immediate profit for traders, but it certainly won't be suitable for those who don't understand trading.
There are successful long-term investors, they all came from 2014. When those people believed in Bitcoin, ETH and the top alts now.
Hold or Trade both bring different values. I do not underestimate trade nor underestimate Hold. A wise person knows how to choose a good time to do it.

i can't stop laughing while read this. quite interesting and impressive. i have decided to up and game and sell off. holding noting agin it was a mistake and it will never happen again. i better focus in btc markets only and sell off anything left. i better to trade with cool head than to fomo.
 

That's definitely not the whole gamut

As there are different types of holders, among which bag holders are worthy of note here. These are made into "holders" against their will as they have failed to sell in time the trashy assets that happen to possess. Basically, it is just a handy euphemism for losers (no offense intended), and there is no way you can seriously consider them long-term traders as the assets they have typically end up being no longer tradable

Don’t always pay attention to people’s opinion because they also have no slight idea of what they want or what they are hear for, how can someone say both holding and trading is not good, if they don’t do both, then how else does he expect people to make profit. People like to just make some statement without leaving one with options.

Trading is good and holding his good. I bought bitcoin when it was $4000, and if I had not held it and probably sold it when I $500 climbed on it, would be have had a multiplied figure by now? And also, now that majority of us are waiting for the bull run of bitcoin, it is trading that I have been using to make some money while we await the bull run, those two options are still the most valid options to make money in cryptocurrency.

This was related to me right now.. 100% agree to people who says , just holding assets is can't make profit itself.. do trading with it.
But the problem is I didn't know how to trading , just know basic steps of trading.. mostly I do trading and lost about 10-15% of my assets and I stop it.
Maybe later I must learn more about trading , because this was important to gain more profits.

lol...being an economist i guess you should also acknowledge the fcat that human psychology always keep on playing tricks on us. Let's not lambaste panic sellers. Probably it's not their fault and funny enough you'll be suprised that these same fears drove them into the space. So as you're doing let then know the fundamental and we'll all be good to go.

You can also get income if you hold assets, and that includes passive income, such as masternode, or staking,
now many projects choose DPOS over POW or POS, so holders can now get money even though only hold their assets,
and a good decision if you don't trade when you can't read the chart, because it will burn your money.

Let's create a trading group then. If the good traders will share some knowledge it will make some difference for the newbies.
Problem is, who's a good trader? 🤣

A lot of people here are willing to share their tips of course though it would still be your own experiences that will make you an efficient trader. I just don't think everybody will be able to have a good grasp of it. Don't take it out too much on hodlers :D for some of us who have been trying and not really doing good in trading, hodling comes as a good option if we want to stay in crypto.

Holding will only turn bitcoin into an asset not a currency. I also do not agree, Holding as you say that they hold without reason, whereas to hold you must understand the market, not hoping for a rise without a clear reason. Some users I know hold because they know market trends, I am also annoyed with the types of categories of users who do not know the market but advise others to stand by them.

I know trading is much better than Holding but at first, you have to ensure the price and market. when your price is more or less stable then you can say that not to hold, you have to know why people hold their Bitcoin, I think the main reason is the price volatility, We are all greedy and we are here for making a profit, so why we don't hold our Bitcoin, it's just an individual wise, So if this bitcoin and cryptocurrency platform would be stable then people do whatever they do as the fiat purpose, another thing is the lack of payment source, if Bitcoin would be accepted at randomly then people use as the payment tools, so the backlog should be removed then everything will be fine by the time.

Trading is better if you know how to trade and you are patient. In any other case it is safier to just Hold and wait for your coin to pump. Another thing is to know when you should quit with your gains.

I lost so much money because of my lack of patience :(

Yes, I agree with your opinion even though trading is much better than holding back but the market situation really affects the user must take a stand.
and all will correct each other's differences of opinion to become better and wiser users, greed here just wants to have a big profit even though greed will turn into regret on the grounds that when prices go up don't sell them and hope prices will continue to go up, and reality
instead the price drops below the previous price and it is a regret experienced by all users for holding it for too long.

Holding requires knowledge and before investing, set a price to sell to ensure your profit in the long term. The crypto market is often very volatile and absolutely cannot make you safe when investing. In fact, investing any coin needs to think carefully because you have to research this market the most carefully because any mistake will make you huge losses.

I have met a lot of investors who only make money and they do not understand the potential of this market because for them the crypto market is only a tool to make money so those investors often fail more.

Yikes! Seems like you've had some bad experiences. I think HODLing is still a proven strategy for a lot of people. Why exactly do you think it doesn't work? Sources?

Haha..This was an awesome post and could have gone to a lot of other conclusions.
ROFL @ "It was the next biggest thing, you fucking idiot". Not just shitcoins and ICOs but also Blockchain Logistics, Blockchain Bananas and Shrimps, Big Data and AI on blockchain...!!LOL..and of course, smart contracts.

I just want to say that this little guy who bought a fraction of a BTC in 2017-18 maybe an idiot but not the "fucking idiot" that the true hodler/ whale is. Its the people who keep propagating stuff about hyperbitcoinization and sortta lead the new guy to "believe" and hold on to their bags. The real BTC whales are themselves "trading" and moving the market in ICO's, IEO's etc. Who does all these pumps and dumps where the starry-eyed new bag-hodlers lose money?

I really don't get the mindset of all these people saying hodl 100% of the time. It is quite clearly more profitably to sell when the market is down, and rebuy when the market is up.

If you do that several times in a row you will end up with significantly more BTC than when you started with. Obviously this larger stack will then be worth a whole lot more if BTC ever reaches the moon as so many proclaim.

You could even throw in some shorting on the downturns and prediction markets for the upturns to increase your profits even further.

Mindlessly holding is now the way for a trader.

A non surprising thing yet that word HODL is just already a typical step for those people who dont want to risk on doing short trades.
When tending to accumulate more bitcoin then active trades is much more preferable but in exchange it would really have that certain risk.
Hodl for those people who dont want to risk and immediate trade are for those who are serious on accumulating their stuff.

There are many people in the crypto market that I think not everyone can trade directly and not everyone will only hold it for a long or medium time. So in this case we cannot assume that everyone has the same personality and interests in this space, so whatever method they employ ultimately has the same goal for a profit from trading and also investment.

People have obviously burned their fingers

Many had probably tried the "trading routine" in the past, and if the price went their way, they quickly sold out without letting profits grow. On the other hand, if the price went against them, they were not so quick to sell and cut their losses short, so they unwillingly and reluctantly turned into "mindless holders". So either way, these wretched traders had essentially only one option ahead of them (well, a single option is not an option at all), and which was to hold

There is no need to speak ill of holders as that might be their best strategy that has been working for them overtime. But on a general note holding is not as profitable as it used to be before,  many token fell below their IEO price and till now have not been able to pick up ever since, holders holding such coin would be in a huge loss by now.  If you must hold my advice for you to hold BTC which is less volatile and have the potentials to increase in price in the future.  Aside that if you holding altcoins make sure you sell at every ATH and buy back occasionally so as to make profit and at thesame time keep your

There are lots of trading group in TG or any social site if you want to join on them.
They are sharing on what experience on what it make in trading and getting some information on how to be a good traders.

And it is good also for the newbies if want to learn in trading and get more profit on trade some coins.

What about those people who have no time to spend hours or even days monitoring the latest market condition to know when the best time to sell and when to re-buy it ?

I don't think everyone can be a good trader , the fact that those people who doing sell on bearish and try to re-buy it on the bullish... most of the times they are failed.
That's why hold your bitcoin 100% of the time is a better choice! Most of the times!
And eventhough you want to sell it at certain point , just think for the long term investment to not sell all of them and making bitcoin as an asset that you should never release in the very near future , you need at least 1 bitcoin to hold forever and you'll be fine heading to the future.

Some reason they don't actually share their experience and strategy to gain money in trading those, they want to share is almost lost and profitable not by their own new strategy that makes perfect in trading.

Ive recently discovered that holding is bad and not having an exit plan is very bad so ive tried trading and after a few days i loss my money but not all of it just the most of it. So right now im back in square where i hold my money because of the bearish market. Even though ive watched tons of tutorials about trading i always get scared when the market turns red now i know what FUD feels like.

Are you sure these people made the right investment choice?

I mean the right choice of investing in Bitcoin and crypto in general? If you, generally speaking, don't have time to check the prices once a week or so, maybe cryptocurrencies aren't for you after all. Maybe you should start looking into something else, for example, deposit accounts which you don't have to check months on end or even long-term treasuries like 30-year bonds which you can safely forget about for literally decades? Just my 2 sats

Ah you didn't get my points.

Just because you are holding 100% of the time , doesn't mean you can't check the market twice a week or even just once a week lol
Who the hell gonna let their investment forgotten for decades :D
What I mean is that most trader spend their times monitoring the price for hours like 20 hours a day and 4 hours sleep in extreme way or let's say continuously monitoring the market 14 hours with less rest in it, that's the way people can re buy in the right time.

But that explanation undermines your previous point

If you are looking into the market once or twice a week, you may see where the ship sails, and thus choose your entry and exit points (mostly, the latter).  Indeed, if you make a couple trades a week, this won't make you into a day trader (though opinions may vary), but that still makes you a trader, not a 100% holder

Technically, it is exactly the idea behind "hodling", i.e. to forget about your cryptocurrency investments for a few years (the longer the better). You can see such advices springing up here and here of the forum, especially when someone was unlucky to buy at or near the top. To sum it up, a hodler is essentially a failed trader

sometimes holding does not have to be applied at any time, there must be an appropriate time for holding. because now holding sometimes makes us lose, market position cannot be stable and also market position is unpredictable. so I think we have to be careful what we do

When you are just new to trade then the feeling of being scared cant really be avoided but as you gain experience and do know the market well then these kind of emotions wont really be as severe when you are just starting.Hodling isnt bad if you do target out on years time on holding your coins but if you do talk about short term and missing out profits because you hold up then thats an another mistake.Same goes for not cutting loss when dump do happen but this do only applied on alts.

Deal with FUD and FOMO yet these would always exist on this kind of market.Do thing according to your likes as long you would able to profit.

No. It's not.

Just because you do checking the price constantly once a week or so , doesn't mean you'll set your buy or sell position.
You could be just curious whether are you there yet reaching your investment target.
Well if you define hodler like that... I assume it's just the matter of perspective.
I do define hodler as those people who believe in bitcoin no matter the price fall to the ground ( they believe the time to recover will come and they keep hodling) or no matter the price moving up high to the moon ( they believe the time to break another all time high will still coming , they have seen it but continue hodling )

That's all.

hold too long sometimes is not good, so that when experiencing an increase must quickly take it off. we must remember that after such a high increase, it's sure there be a very low decrease too. and now is the time of decline, so it's good to buy and hold, then after that it we will see another price increase after this year's decline.

So you expect to reach your investment target in a week or so, right?

Well, I actually don't mean that you should sell or buy every time you look at the charts, but it still seems to me a bit counterintuitive to check prices now and then if you intend to keep your coins for years. If you do, then seeing the price crash may make you nervous and anxious about the future of your investments up to a point where your faith gives in suddenly, and you sell at a loss. This is a real-life scenario with the implication being that you'd better not check the prices "just out of curiosity" or "for fun"

This is what I also learned this past few months, that holding will just make your money sleep, I have learned that you need to workout your money everyday, find something that will make you have passive income while you are sleeping, so better to choose the right path for you to be able to have good source of income, holding especially altcoins with no movement or no development is just like waste of time.

Not really, I'm not saying that way. The target could be limitless ( you know each person , each investor has their own approach so I can't define this 'target' exactly, could always different )
Ouu yeah then if you can't resist to sell when seeing the market crash.. I think you are not what I call a hodler ;D .
There's no harm to look at the charts sometimes to test how strong your faith... rather than forget it for years without following any progress in it , sounds like a bit gambling style ???

But that's how things are in real life

People are weak, and their faith is weak too. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing such an endless stream of people whining and crying around about Bitcoin crashing and them losing money. So if we talk reality here, people looking at the charts "sometimes" are actually proving how feeble, frail, and shaky their faith in fact is

I think we couldn't even call it faith, rather fantasy about "Bitcoin domination" in the future. If this "faith" was as strong as you assume it to be, there wouldn't be a need for inspecting prices once a week or so. Really, if you were a true believer in something, would you have to check the object of your belief for its existence every now and then?

Everybody must not invest in cryptocurrency. You should learn about it and know whether it is a risk you can afford to take. When I tell my friends about cryptocurrency, I tell them to do proper research about it. I let them know the risk that they are getting themselves involved in and whether they can take that risk. It's up to them to decide whether they are going to take such a risk.

There are lots of people that invest in Bitcoin and lots of them lose their money, we never get to hear their story, we only see and hear the stories of those that became millionaires. You can invest in other kinds of investments and make money too, there are investments that doesn't have much risk and some of them have 0% risk, just like some farming investments I do see. You just have to find what works for you and stop blaming people because you lost money in Bitcoin, you made the choice yourself.

Each person holding crypto might have very different needs, incomes or ways to spend their time. I'd say, along the lines of BTC being the most permissive form of money, everybody is free to use it as they please. Profit might be the goal, or maybe not. Who knows what obscure reasoning might be behind each individual's decision to hold crypto, but there's very little to be done about it.  :D

well not really.... everyone in crypto is mainly in for the speculative side, if you had different needs (like a safe investment for your retirement), you would invest in a pension fund or safer assets

I firmly agree with you.

Especially during the last days of high volatility, every holders got its portfolio in red (maybe not the ones that bought at less than 7k). Instead, trading would have let them leverage this trend and turn its portfolio into green.

Agree, we are learning from everyone's mistakes, if someone are holding tokens and turned out to be scam, then we are realizing things that we should be very careful with the coins/tokens that we are investing at, it's not good that we are just investing because they are new and seems legit, we should validate things by making a solid proof that they  are really a legit one.

How the hell is your reply about "being careful with coins/ tokens" related to his comment about people holding crypto for different, obscure reasons and not necessarily for profit??! ::)

Who are the person you have learned from their mistake? Does anyone told you what any coins turned to scam which they still hold it until now? This thread only created for BTC only, not about any other token

Just report his post instead of replied his post

I guess it depends on, if in this period you trade trying to 'buy the bottom', or whether you short, or use trading platforms that allow you to do similar things

What about the latest period? Trading would have generated good profits... but hodlers will argue that they also make it :D

Such a great observation! Hats off to you, mate! By telling this bitter truth, you opened the uneducated holder's face who know nothing but the "HODL" word! Holding is not a bad virtue, but you have to have enough knowledge when to hold and when to sell, and by doing this, you can be a trader too! Don't listen to anybody, use your own brain and manage your wealth as like as you want! This strategy will remain strong until the crypto end day!

Thanks, the main aim is to shake them. In the end, all hodlers are fellow bitcoiners like you and me...

Funny people always worry about others holding but clever people looks to mark high profit yield with their investment. When you have invested in bitcoin and you are being holders means hope you will not sure that you with that title.

Man, the last sentence is not written in English... can you explain it in simple words?

I just want to get the post up because I believe that is still very relevant considering the latest trend. BTC