Hodler, you motherfucker.

[DKREBEL86]

It all started so innocently. Why not give crypto a try? All the guys at work are talking about it. Shitcoins, ICOs, Tethers, Smart Contracts. You wanted in. It was the Next Big Thing, you fucking idiot.

So you put a little money in the crypto market in 2018. How do you feel today? Portfolio in the red. You don’t even want to look at it. Hodl, they all said. It will come back after the FUD, they all said. And now you’re numb, and depressed, and can’t even afford a bottle of Jack to drown out the pain.

You’ve learned (hopefully) that hodling is bad.

Hodling is like prayer. A lot of people may believe in it, but it doesn’t fucking work. Your assets aren’t protected by God, and they do not respond to the intensity of your beliefs. No matter how hard you believe, crypto-assets just do whatever they do. The market and the universe remain indifferent to your convictions.

In the world of poker, there’s a saying: “If within the first 10 minutes, you can’t spot the sucker at the table, it’s you.” So you’ve been pwned by crypto, Mr. or Mrs. SmartyPants. Somebody else is having a nice Christmas this year with your (actual) money.

But every failure is a learning experience. Hopefully you’ve learned something too. Most successful investors eat shit at the beginning. You know why? Because the ones you’re trading against have already eaten it, and they know how to avoid the same mistakes.

Stop Wasting Your Fucking Time

The biggest mistake most amateur “investors” (actually gamblers), make is to fail to value their own time. Like that guy at the office who always boasts that he’s up big money at the weekly poker game. If he had been installing Ikea furniture in his spare time, he’d probably have more money, and at least not be in liver failure from the constant drinking. This is not an investment strategy. It’s just work. In the gambling world, they call it “grinding.”

At a certain point, having more money doesn’t buy you the one thing you will continue to value above everything else: your time. This is precisely the difference between an investor and a gambler: and investor values their own time. A gambler doesn’t. Now, if you’re a degenerate fucking gambler, please, continue to check the crypto market every 5 minutes, and hodl like your life depends on it. There is always an inside straight that you can draw towards.

Go ahead. We’ll wait.

3 Kinds of Stupid

I don't like to generalize, but I’m going to do it anyway.  I think that there are essentially 3 kinds of people in the crypto market right now: Hodlers; Panic Sellers; and Traders.

Despite what you’ve read on Reddit, it’s not really a complicated science. Why do you think Wallstreet is run by a bunch of frat bros who could barely balance a checkbook before they were entrusted with a slide rule, your grandma’s pension fund, and a fat baggie of Colombian cocaine? Trading is fucking simple. Buy low. Sell high. Rinse. Repeat. The less emotional, the better.

Trust me, I’m an economist. We’re never wrong.

Because it’s not a complicated science, I made a simple backtest that shows the difference between a holding "strategy" (that's not a strategy) and a super simple trading strategy (ie: an actual fucking strategy). I didn't consider panic sellers simply because they’re idiots, who never make the right decisions. Never panic sell! Actually, do not buy crypto, fiat, or stocks if you are driven by fear. And most people are driven by fear.

My assumptions start from an investment of $13,000 made in January 2018 when BTC-USD price was $13,000 and therefore you would have had a balance of 1 full Bitcoin. Awesome, let's see how the two investors would end their 2018!

Holder (I really hate the word Hodler as I really hate your species):

You’re basically a flat Earther, Tesla Model 3 loving, over-paid, under educated, millenial dumbass. That’s you. You lost 76% of your capital in less than a year. Good job, idiot. Go on Twitter and tell your friends to do likewise. Maybe next year will be the year. Or not. Delete your account. 

Trader:

It's been a hard year, but you made it. You have a strategy that includes stop-losses and sets a profit appetite. You set 10% stop losses so you sold your BTC when the price was $11,700. You bought again when the price dropped to $10,000 so you had 1.17 BTC now (still not profitable but better than before, right?). So you felt confident and kept placing orders to sell and to buy strategically. If you did as I did, you should find yourself in the table below.

Yes, I am 10.97% up right now. Yes, I made profits during a bear trend. Yes, I am not the only one (whoa!). How I did it? I spent no more than 10 minutes per day in front of my laptop and used a trading bot to place orders as I wanted. "As I wanted" means "as I meant to trade" and not "as a friend of a friend told me when I was drunk in a pub".

Managing your wealth these days is a question of doing simple homework, and not listening to bullshit.  Stick with a strategy, do not panic, and (especially) have the right technology to execute it all. If you think that you can outsmart Goldman Sachs with your excel spreadsheet downloaded online and suggested by an investment "Guru", I have a bridge to sell you. Anyone who sells you their investment advice isn’t smart enough to play the market themselves. You’re the one getting played instead.

In 1613, my hero, and the first real economist Antonio Serra said that the quality of people is one of the key factors that will determine the wealth and poverty of a nation. The quality of the people is mainly determined by their common sense and by their ability to survive during difficult periods. You, holder, are the ruin of a beautiful ecosystem. You are the curse of Bitcoin economics. You, holder still have time (maybe) to change your stupid mind, even just to try and to demonstrate to yourself that you can be smarter.

STOP HOLDING, TRADE.

I love you.

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[Leonard2016]

Good job!
Yeah I think trading is much better than holding , the important thing is the capital , You have started with 1 bitcoin and that's the point , The main capital could decrease the risk of trading if it is much enough , if not you need to look forward to bigger percentages and that could cause more risks , I hope you success in that trading way!

[DaMut]

Good job!
Yeah I think trading is much better than holding , the important thing is the capital , You have started with 1 bitcoin and that's the point , The main capital could decrease the risk of trading if it is much enough , if not you need to look forward to bigger percentages and that could cause more risks , I hope you success in that trading way!

Trading is better for those who can trade it, but for those who can not do it? they will not make it. And about hold and not to hold, it is about your style and strategy.
technically, when you are jumping into something in your real life. You would not expect something in a single day, right? Holding is like running a business, at first you are going to see what will happen to your business and then make a goal based on it.
in the end, you can not force something that is out of their way. people have a different kind of strategy and mindset, they might do not really care about what is going on with our current price right now because they put something that is basically nothing to them and would expect it to go zero at any moment.

when you have something bigger other than your trade right now, and you can live with it. why would you care about something that is nothing for you?

[DKREBEL86]

Good job!
Yeah I think trading is much better than holding , the important thing is the capital , You have started with 1 bitcoin and that's the point , The main capital could decrease the risk of trading if it is much enough , if not you need to look forward to bigger percentages and that could cause more risks , I hope you success in that trading way!

Trading is better for those who can trade it, but for those who can not do it? they will not make it. And about hold and not to hold, it is about your style and strategy.
technically, when you are jumping into something in your real life. You would not expect something in a single day, right? Holding is like running a business, at first you are going to see what will happen to your business and then make a goal based on it.
in the end, you can not force something that is out of their way. people have a different kind of strategy and mindset, they might do not really care about what is going on with our current price right now because they put something that is basically nothing to them and would expect it to go zero at any moment.

when you have something bigger other than your trade right now, and you can live with it. why would you care about something that is nothing for you?

"Holding is like running a business".... that is going to fail miserably.

That's complete crap! If you run a business you need the mindset of a trader.

[mirakal]

Thanks for you opinion, sometimes it's really frustrating to see your portfolio is going down because you hold.
At the start of the year 2018, that was really good although there is a little dump but it's not consistent but up to this date our portfolio is down 80% or more that is because of holding.

So, did I regret it? Yes and No, there's a regret of course because it's a big dump especially if we are investing a big money. But, crypto is just a risky kind of investment and I was able to enjoy the 2017 by holding and I don't mind dying this year because of holding also.

But, I don't want to judge anyone, let's make an action base on our own decision so there is nothing to blame.

[stomachgrowls]

Good job!
Yeah I think trading is much better than holding , the important thing is the capital , You have started with 1 bitcoin and that's the point , The main capital could decrease the risk of trading if it is much enough , if not you need to look forward to bigger percentages and that could cause more risks , I hope you success in that trading way!

Trading is better for those who can trade it, but for those who can not do it? they will not make it. And about hold and not to hold, it is about your style and strategy.
technically, when you are jumping into something in your real life. You would not expect something in a single day, right? Holding is like running a business, at first you are going to see what will happen to your business and then make a goal based on it.
in the end, you can not force something that is out of their way. people have a different kind of strategy and mindset, they might do not really care about what is going on with our current price right now because they put something that is basically nothing to them and would expect it to go zero at any moment.

when you have something bigger other than your trade right now, and you can live with it. why would you care about something that is nothing for you?

For some people who do just put up money and forget it then those are people who do have lots of money and just making a testing phase but i would say that 90% of people who do put up money do really always matter on how to make profits by means of investing.It isnt easy to ignore on such amounts either it would be already big or small on other people or not. We do really have different mindsets when it comes to investments and
that is true thats why each decisions would really be different. We might criticize about hodling but we cant blame why they have done such thing. We do have different insights on all sorts of things.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Trust me, I’m an economist.

Ehhh....I don't believe you on that one unless you prove it.

Some holders look stupid now, depending when they bought in.  The ones from 2010 will look pretty damn smart; those who bought in at $20k will look like suckers.  And if bitcoin were to spike to $10,000 tomorrow, that would change the perspective quite a bit.

Having said that, buy-and-hold with crypto has never sat well with me like it does with other investments, like stocks that pay good dividends and when said dividends can be reinvested.  The whole crypto market is more like a casino than it is a stock exchange, and there does seem to be a hell of a lot of emotion involved with crypto traders--they hold on well past the point of ever hoping to make a profit in markets like this.

But you never know.  If we start seeing some upward momentum, hodling might in retrospect turn out to be the smart thing to do.  Could happen, you know.

[Coyster]

Its invariably what works for one, be it trading or hodling,not one of them comes out well every single time, and in my opinion there is no need picking one above the other
It's down to what every individual can handle in terms of skills,capital,time frame etc

Some dudes have earned a lot from hodling you know,they sure wouldn't subscribe to your info,others have seen their investments go to scratch,thats what trading is all about,i cant pick a winning formula if you ask me

[DKREBEL86]

Trust me, I’m an economist.

Ehhh....I don't believe you on that one unless you prove it.

Fair enough. How shall I demonstrate it?

[Lighthouze]

This is like one hard, throat paining, bitter truth most people in crypto including myself don't want to hear. But hey, you just had to tell it not minding whose ox is gored. My major take away from the painfully lengthy post was CAPITAL PRESERVATION , which can hardly be achieved with hodling. Capitals have been drained by the bears market and many in the name of hodling have lost everything to the market that's designed to take from you, except you're wise enough to take from it.

[avikz]

Good job!
Yeah I think trading is much better than holding , the important thing is the capital , You have started with 1 bitcoin and that's the point , The main capital could decrease the risk of trading if it is much enough , if not you need to look forward to bigger percentages and that could cause more risks , I hope you success in that trading way!

It's not just trading, it's about circulating the coins within the ecosystem. That can be achieved through trading as well as through merchant adoption. HODLers are simply hoarding the coins into their coffers which are not helping anyone. If we want to see growth of crypto, we should be spending instead of hoarding it. The more it circulates within the ecosystem, the more prominent it becomes to create a value for it.

So the correct word is not just "Trading", instead it should be "circulating!"

[DKREBEL86]

This is like one hard, throat paining, bitter truth most people in crypto including myself don't want to hear. But hey, you just had to tell it not minding whose ox is gored. My major take away from the painfully lengthy post was CAPITAL PRESERVATION , which can hardly be achieved with hodling. Capitals have been drained by the bears market and many in the name of hodling have lost everything to the market that's designed to take from you, except you're wise enough to take from it.

You're now on the right path, and it is very good to admit errors.

Errare humanum est, perseverare autem diabolicum

[DKREBEL86]

Good job!
Yeah I think trading is much better than holding , the important thing is the capital , You have started with 1 bitcoin and that's the point , The main capital could decrease the risk of trading if it is much enough , if not you need to look forward to bigger percentages and that could cause more risks , I hope you success in that trading way!

It's not just trading, it's about circulating the coins within the ecosystem. That can be achieved through trading as well as through merchant adoption. HODLers are simply hoarding the coins into their coffers which are not helping anyone. If we want to see growth of crypto, we should be spending instead of hoarding it. The more it circulates within the ecosystem, the more prominent it becomes to create a value for it.

So the correct word is not just "Trading", instead it should be "circulating!"

I do agree with you. Trading and Circulating can have the same meaning.

[Tytanowy Janusz]

Apply the same strategy during different market and you might be on loss. Only because your trading strategy in specyfic market situation gives you better return than holder strategy (no strategy in my opinion too, or dumpass strategy) dasn't makes you better than others. Same strategy in 2017 would give you worst returns than hodlers strategy.

2017 was hodlers year. 2018 was traders year.

And now you came here with your 10% return in 2018 making fun out of hodlers who made 1000% in 2017.

Dont get me wrong. I also think that hodling is the riskiest and worst strategy (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4456137.msg39881422#msg39881422) but i also don't think that your super simple 10 min daily strategy is the best and optimal one only because it gives 10% per year in current market.  

BTW 10% during whole year made by last 3 trades from 10% loss is not the reason to be proud off.

[DKREBEL86]

Apply the same strategy during different market and you might be on loss. Only because your trading strategy in specyfic market situation gives you better return than holder strategy (no strategy in my opinion too, or dumpass strategy) dasn't makes you better than others. Same strategy in 2017 would give you worst returns than hodlers strategy.

2017 was hodlers year. 2018 was traders year.

And now you came here with your 10% return in 2018 making fun out of hodlers who made 1000% in 2017.

Dont get me wrong. I also think that hodling is the riskiest and worst strategy (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4456137.msg39881422#msg39881422) but i also don't think that your super simple 10 min daily strategy is the best and optimal one only because it gives 10% per year in current market.  

BTW 10% during whole year made by last 3 trades from 10% loss is not the reason to be proud off.

Look, I invested money into crypto before 2017 and I can tell you that if you apply the same principles (upside-down) during a bullish period you could have scored more than the 1000% in 2017.

Moreover, mine was a provocation to tell that nobody should hold and pray. You need to allocate time to your investment so you can achieve much better returns.

[ConotCan]

Good job!
Yeah I think trading is much better than holding , the important thing is the capital , You have started with 1 bitcoin and that's the point , The main capital could decrease the risk of trading if it is much enough , if not you need to look forward to bigger percentages and that could cause more risks , I hope you success in that trading way!

Trading is better for those who can trade it, but for those who can not do it? they will not make it. And about hold and not to hold, it is about your style and strategy.
technically, when you are jumping into something in your real life. You would not expect something in a single day, right? Holding is like running a business, at first you are going to see what will happen to your business and then make a goal based on it.
in the end, you can not force something that is out of their way. people have a different kind of strategy and mindset, they might do not really care about what is going on with our current price right now because they put something that is basically nothing to them and would expect it to go zero at any moment.

when you have something bigger other than your trade right now, and you can live with it. why would you care about something that is nothing for you?

"Holding is like running a business".... that is going to fail miserably.

That's complete crap! If you run a business you need the mindset of a trader.

Running any business and hodling the Bitcoin. Both of them are not the same things and are very different. Besides, HODL in the bear market is a good strategy. DO watch some good videos by famous Bitcoinners.

[DKREBEL86]

Good job!
Yeah I think trading is much better than holding , the important thing is the capital , You have started with 1 bitcoin and that's the point , The main capital could decrease the risk of trading if it is much enough , if not you need to look forward to bigger percentages and that could cause more risks , I hope you success in that trading way!

Trading is better for those who can trade it, but for those who can not do it? they will not make it. And about hold and not to hold, it is about your style and strategy.
technically, when you are jumping into something in your real life. You would not expect something in a single day, right? Holding is like running a business, at first you are going to see what will happen to your business and then make a goal based on it.
in the end, you can not force something that is out of their way. people have a different kind of strategy and mindset, they might do not really care about what is going on with our current price right now because they put something that is basically nothing to them and would expect it to go zero at any moment.

when you have something bigger other than your trade right now, and you can live with it. why would you care about something that is nothing for you?

"Holding is like running a business".... that is going to fail miserably.

That's complete crap! If you run a business you need the mindset of a trader.

Running any business and hodling the Bitcoin. Both of them are not the same things and are very different. Besides, HODL in the bear market is a good strategy. DO watch some good videos by famous Bitcoinners.

I’m trying to find the words to tell you that you are stupid without really saying it. Can you suggest some videos on this topic too?

Ignorance is an issue that might be solved. Your stupidity can’t be solved, you need to cap with it.

[Kemarit]

Its really possible to make money not just in bull market in a bear season but it might takes some experience which you obviously have by learning how to play with the market. As for those HOLDer's I guess that's their strategy and I don't see anything wrong with that. If what fits your goal, as others don't have the time to trade and would rather just purchase and look for the long haul. There's also one thread around, wherein he/she was able to get in before the price exploded and the one thing common with you guys is that you both do your homework and didn't listen or ask for financial advises from people around this forum.

[nicster551]

It all started so innocently. Why not give crypto a try? All the guys at work are talking about it. Shitcoins, ICOs, Tethers, Smart Contracts. You wanted in. It was the Next Big Thing, you fucking idiot.

So you put a little money in the crypto market in 2018. How do you feel today? Portfolio in the red. You don’t even want to look at it. Hodl, they all said. It will come back after the FUD, they all said. And now you’re numb, and depressed, and can’t even afford a bottle of Jack to drown out the pain.

You’ve learned (hopefully) that hodling is bad.

Hodling is like prayer. A lot of people may believe in it, but it doesn’t fucking work. Your assets aren’t protected by God, and they do not respond to the intensity of your beliefs. No matter how hard you believe, crypto-assets just do whatever they do. The market and the universe remain indifferent to your convictions.

In the world of poker, there’s a saying: “If within the first 10 minutes, you can’t spot the sucker at the table, it’s you.” So you’ve been pwned by crypto, Mr. or Mrs. SmartyPants. Somebody else is having a nice Christmas this year with your (actual) money.

But every failure is a learning experience. Hopefully you’ve learned something too. Most successful investors eat shit at the beginning. You know why? Because the ones you’re trading against have already eaten it, and they know how to avoid the same mistakes.

Stop Wasting Your Fucking Time

The biggest mistake most amateur “investors” (actually gamblers), make is to fail to value their own time. Like that guy at the office who always boasts that he’s up big money at the weekly poker game. If he had been installing Ikea furniture in his spare time, he’d probably have more money, and at least not be in liver failure from the constant drinking. This is not an investment strategy. It’s just work. In the gambling world, they call it “grinding.”

At a certain point, having more money doesn’t buy you the one thing you will continue to value above everything else: your time. This is precisely the difference between an investor and a gambler: and investor values their own time. A gambler doesn’t. Now, if you’re a degenerate fucking gambler, please, continue to check the crypto market every 5 minutes, and hodl like your life depends on it. There is always an inside straight that you can draw towards.

Go ahead. We’ll wait.

3 Kinds of Stupid

I don't like to generalize, but I’m going to do it anyway.  I think that there are essentially 3 kinds of people in the crypto market right now: Hodlers; Panic Sellers; and Traders.

Despite what you’ve read on Reddit, it’s not really a complicated science. Why do you think Wallstreet is run by a bunch of frat bros who could barely balance a checkbook before they were entrusted with a slide rule, your grandma’s pension fund, and a fat baggie of Colombian cocaine? Trading is fucking simple. Buy low. Sell high. Rinse. Repeat. The less emotional, the better.

Trust me, I’m an economist. We’re never wrong.

Because it’s not a complicated science, I made a simple backtest that shows the difference between a holding "strategy" (that's not a strategy) and a super simple trading strategy (ie: an actual fucking strategy). I didn't consider panic sellers simply because they’re idiots, who never make the right decisions. Never panic sell! Actually, do not buy crypto, fiat, or stocks if you are driven by fear. And most people are driven by fear.

My assumptions start from an investment of $13,000 made in January 2018 when BTC-USD price was $13,000 and therefore you would have had a balance of 1 full Bitcoin. Awesome, let's see how the two investors would end their 2018!

Holder (I really hate the word Hodler as I really hate your species):

You’re basically a flat Earther, Tesla Model 3 loving, over-paid, under educated, millenial dumbass. That’s you. You lost 76% of your capital in less than a year. Good job, idiot. Go on Twitter and tell your friends to do likewise. Maybe next year will be the year. Or not. Delete your account. 

Trader:

It's been a hard year, but you made it. You have a strategy that includes stop-losses and sets a profit appetite. You set 10% stop losses so you sold your BTC when the price was $11,700. You bought again when the price dropped to $10,000 so you had 1.17 BTC now (still not profitable but better than before, right?). So you felt confident and kept placing orders to sell and to buy strategically. If you did as I did, you should find yourself in the table below.

Yes, I am 10.97% up right now. Yes, I made profits during a bear trend. Yes, I am not the only one (whoa!). How I did it? I spent no more than 10 minutes per day in front of my laptop and used a trading bot to place orders as I wanted. "As I wanted" means "as I meant to trade" and not "as a friend of a friend told me when I was drunk in a pub".

Managing your wealth these days is a question of doing simple homework, and not listening to bullshit.  Stick with a strategy, do not panic, and (especially) have the right technology to execute it all. If you think that you can outsmart Goldman Sachs with your excel spreadsheet downloaded online and suggested by an investment "Guru", I have a bridge to sell you. Anyone who sells you their investment advice isn’t smart enough to play the market themselves. You’re the one getting played instead.

In 1613, my hero, and the first real economist Antonio Serra said that the quality of people is one of the key factors that will determine the wealth and poverty of a nation. The quality of the people is mainly determined by their common sense and by their ability to survive during difficult periods. You, holder, are the ruin of a beautiful ecosystem. You are the curse of Bitcoin economics. You, holder still have time (maybe) to change your stupid mind, even just to try and to demonstrate to yourself that you can be smarter.

STOP HOLDING, TRADE.

I love you.

I might agree with you. For me, holding sucks because a lot of people telling you to do it and also a lot of people are following it and it resulted to a lot of loses.

[proTECH77]

if you think about holding at this time. you will dead soon

What happens when you are at lose in a game? Imagine you bought bitcoin when the price was at $15,000 and now the fall to $4,000 will you sell? Get this, the hodlers today are the potential millionaires tomorrow and not traders like us. I have been into this game of trade and at the same time a hodler but these two are good and my favorite is HODL, so i prefer to HODL than to trade at risk. Trade Bot signals are now attempt by the developers  to get more innocent traders to trade for their benefits.