Bitcoin Forum

November 2021 update: grin payments are currently not being accepted. My payments code broke, and since grin payments were never very common, it hasn't been a priority to fix it.

I'm super excited about grin (https://grin.mw/). All past altcoins have been just Bitcoin with a few bits tacked on; occasionally these extra bits are useful/interesting (eg. Monero or Ethereum), but in the vast majority of cases this extra stuff is just meaningless marketing-oriented garbage. But grin is packed full of useful innovation from top to bottom; moreover, it's clearly built in the same cypherpunk spirit that Bitcoin was: increased freedom/sovereignty through technology.

Therefore, I'm happy to announce that the forum is now accepting grin payments automatically, probably the first site other than exchanges to do so. You'll find a link at the bottom of the evil-fee and copper-membership (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=credit;promote) pages.

grin is new and clunky to use. I don't expect many people to use it, honestly. But I needed to rewrite the forum payments system anyway in order to support LN in the future and to fix some longstanding issues with the old code, so adding grin support worked out nicely.

I don't recommend buying or not buying grin. Due to its emission schedule, I'd guess that its price will have a general downward trend for quite some time, but who knows. Currently I own zero grin (though I will be buying from the forum all grin obtained), I was not paid to add grin support, and in fact not a soul knew that I was going to do so. grin support might be removed later if it dies off or becomes too time-consuming for me to maintain.

I tested this with grin's floonet (testnet), but not mainnet yet since I don't have any grin. Hopefully it works. :)

---

A few observations I had while implementing this:

By default they want you to essentially pay to IP addresses. This was stupid when Satoshi tried it 10 years ago, and it's stupid now. At the very least you should strongly encourage (ie. nearly force) people to give out public keys along with their IPs, since otherwise MITM attacks are trivial. Even then it sucks to require the recipient to run an open-to-the-Internet server at all. And for goodness' sake, don't use the broken/centralized HTTPS system; the Bitcoin Core devs have been going to a lot of trouble trying to remove that garbage from Core.

A better protocol for the copy/paste method is needed. For one, you shouldn't have to use intermediary files. I was annoyed when I did grin wallet send -m file -d - and it actually created a file called "-" instead of writing to stdout like it should.

grin needs to be much better at handling transactions that never continue beyond the first or second step in the three-way transaction process. They probably shouldn't even show up in the main transaction log.

Currently I think that there's no way for the recipient to get the modified slate after running receive the first time (eg. if it gets lost), which is nuts. And currently there appears to be no reasonable method for proving that you sent a transaction.

Very interesting to see the forum implement an outside project in this fashion.  Grin is indeed an innovative project and I am mining it to get my hands on some.

[ANN] Grin | PoW Mining | Electronic transactions for all. Community driven.  (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5090427.0)

Wow, never expected something like this to happens. I personally started to look and learn about Grin after I know theymos posted on their thread. And now this? theymos your shilling is awesome :D

Kinda dissapointed that Howeycoins can't achieve the same thing despite being older.

I think that grin-tech.org is just down right now. Nevermind, fixed. Thanks.


Since everyone who invested in howeycoins became a billionaire, I was worried about what would happen to the world economy if I promoted it even more.

Nooo! This is only going to drive prices up when it comes to trading Grin! Interesting to see you implement it so early on despite still having concerns for the future of Grin.

So let me get this right...

Mimblewimble (which is really cool, don't get me wrong) all the sudden gets theymos's support on day 1, when grin's only interesting factor is mimblewimble.  Whereas Monero has Ring Signatures, Ring Confidential Transactions, Stealth Addresses, LMDB, bulletproofs, subaddresses, ASIC resistant cryptonite algo, and possibly Kovri soon™ and it's only a side "interesting" project?

Wut?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm Very happy to mine grin :)

nice work theymos!

thanks!

Mimblewimble has privacy features, but it also has the first really impressive, true scaling solution in crypto. Privacy-wise, Monero is probably better overall, but its scaling is abysmal, and neither coin can be treated as an impenetrable black box.

Forum's exchange rate seems to be ~350 grins per bitcoin or ~$10 per grin.

There's still 14 days and 22 hours before the HoweyCoins ICO begins, so technically its not older.

Grin seems to be only ready for Linux and OS thus far. Otherwise I would check it out.

https://github.com/GrinPlusPlus/GrinPlusPlus

I'll wait until they make it a bit more user friendly for morons like myself.

You can mine grin on windows, been testing it from pre-genesis block.

Check out some of your pool of choice's links for the windows miner version.

thanks!

Grin has a retarded inflation rate. How do you think its price will remain sustainable?

Just likewise what theymos said in his original post,if it proves to be unsustainable and cannot be maintained it'll be removed in the "future"
For now it is implemented and it's progress would simply be watched closely and subject to changes definitely.

While I am fond of Mimblewimble, whoever decided the coin specification decided to create a serious flaw.

This. Monero will end up a dead coin sooner because of all the bloat it implemented.

Doge 2.0 with some bells on? Idea is sound, but sounds like Cryptohunter sorted out the supply

To be honest I am not fan of accept any altcoin. Since it's BTCitcointalk, and I believe that forum related all payment should be by BTCitcoin. Although here is so many altcoin board, but forum was build based on BTCitcoin. I am not agree with accept any altcoin for forum payment. Never mind if admin support any coin personally but official payment mathode should by BTCitcoin only.

i do like grin so far but it's exciting to see theymos experimenting with an Altcoin here.


i would love to see monero as part of the experiment as well :D

I guess I have already proven my point. Didn't expect it this quick though.


Imagine FOMOing and buying it for $261.65.

Waow. This is really interesting :)
I wouldn't have guessed it would happen.
I don't know about Grin, I'm starting to search about it. We should be considered if theymos care.

could be worse man - imagine buying SHITCASH at $3200!

This is the largest cryptocurrency discussion forum, and while this is not an endorsement, it would surely get a lot of people interested in grin.

So could this open the door to more additions to the bitcointalk model? Or is this a one off experiment?

This is what we call indirect endorsement. Just wait for the cryptonews media to handle the rest publicity. Very soon you'll see news likes   and the so called crypto-experts on twitter and YouTube will add to the hype by adding it to their top altcoin to watchout for in 2019. Some might even say GRIN is the new BITCOIN ;D. although If I was a part of this project the news above (grins added as means of payment on bitcointalk) will be advertise on grin site. This wasn't the intention of theymos although when a forum like bitcointalk accepts you as a means of payment it's an indirect endorsement sending signals to potential investors that the project is a go for...

In my opinion its a wise decision to accept altcoin as a payment method . We all need to know that crypto currency World basically connected with each other. Bitcointalk is a well reputated place where worldwide most of the crypto based projects announce their projects. Its simple that our forum just accept bitcoin as the payment method but we also have to remind that bitcointalk is not only working for entire btc community but also for Altcoins too.

Bitcointalk forum members not only working to keep people far from scam projects but also showing the right path to worldwide crypto investors. It can't be a rules like that bitcointalk users must have to pay through btc. I think our admin will add more and more payment option to make a collaboration with crypto seekers who are the main assets of crypto world.

Accepting grin is a great step which shows the sign that bitcointalk is the real home of crypto.

I started to look at Grin and Beam as alternative payment methods for domain name sales. I'm also looking at Dash. It would be great if we could have somewhere to discuss these on Bitcoin Talk boards. I have had the alt boards on ignore for months now. In view of this move by Theymos, please could we have a Grin discussion board.

I don't understand...

60 Grins created every minute forever...

Isn't it the very definition of perpetual inflation? Oo

dash lol ... please ask pharmacist for a link to my cake analogy

Here's a thought: Use LN for domain sales.

Please no. Dash is a shitcoin.

It's broken by design, but has excellent tech.

I thought we will act selfish and will only promote Bitcoin. Endorsing another coin and that is coming from theymos does not look good to me for a forum where we all are here to promote bitcoin.

I am sorry theymos, did you lose your confidence in Bitcoin because the transaction fee is high or something?

By the way I have nothing against grin and I never even studied it.

Not trying to suck up but I'm pretty sure he's allowed to do whatever he wants. Its an interesting take on the whole idea of cryptocurrency and I'm happy to learn about it...


Have you transacted in bitcoin lately? The median tx fee is currently 11 cents; not exactly a dealbreaker.

https://bitcoinfees.earn.com/

I regularly use 4 cent fees if I'm not in a hurry.

Guy from https://beam.mw, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5052151 (ex Spondoolies) here.

Theymos, Mimblewimble allow non-interactive CoinJoins, when you couple it with a modified version of Dandelion that does TX merging in the stem phase + decoys outputs when needed, you get very good unlinkability.
The mechanism can be upgraded and improved without a hard fork. I believe that it's stronger than Monero, but we still didn't do a rigorous academic analysis, It will be done.
Currently, Beam implements it, Grin does only CJs with decoys but they can add it. We discussed it with Grin's devs: https://gitter.im/grin_community/Lobby?at=5bebe2c36b9822140d29e4b2 (Valdok is Beam's lead dev).
More information here: https://github.com/BeamMW/beam/wiki/Transaction-graph-obfuscation and https://medium.com/beam-mw/on-linkability-of-mimblewimble-da9ba71e83b4
In essence, when needed (e.g. not enough outputs), the node participating in a Dandelion stem phase routing, add random outputs that look like any other outputs. Those decoy outputs are later being spent forward as inputs by the node (each decoy has random block counter).

You can see it live in Beam's Block Explorer: https://explorer.beam.mw

Some real world huge blocks that happened:
https://explorer.beam.mw/block/713611c3876b6e38507a9971a95f73fcafc4c780e87237fdddc96207e5211530
https://explorer.beam.mw/block/64e037499a1d67b1c897db6be1b5870a372bbb6192303d2a0ac760ec88ecbd35
https://explorer.beam.mw/block/bbaa04e1afcde879c95941e5f3498788a81759ace4a81988f357270498f46009
https://explorer.beam.mw/block/af7725a6699a895a4ddb4490671da50834881733062c7bc1456a35001a1f154c

The interesting question is how many of those TXs (Each kernel represent a Tx) where CJ in the Dandelion stem phase and how many by the miner / pool (in the open P2P layer).
We will try to analyze open P2P data and improve the mechanisms if needed.

Guy

PS:
Regarding scaling: https://medium.com/beam-mw/whats-the-difference-between-monero-zcash-and-beam-953eafd89354

PPS:
One of Mimblewimble most interesting features is very fast initial sync, low resource requirements (storage, network) and the fact that FlyClient wallet is already implemented in both Grin & Beam. A true (almost) trustless mobile client (wallet) that connects directly to the P2P network.

Alright Guy, but did you pay dogie back?

Dogie canceled his bogus claims.

ah. but didn't correct your red trust. weird huh

Cancelled the court claim.

Alt boards I find useful for knowing which Legendaries are secret lemonade drinkers monero advocates.
Is this thread not what you need? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5090427.0  [ANN] Grin | PoW Mining | Electronic transactions for all. Community driven.
There's some good discussion there eg https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5090427.msg49266991#msg49266991 onwards

He can but a lot depends on what he does. He is a public character for Bitcoin and the entire community. Anything comes from him will have million times market affect than you and me or others.  :)


https://i.imgur.com/kWceCGp.png

11 cent is 0.00003064BTC when price is $3,590. Consider the price $20k, more hash difficulties more more btc as payment fees. Multiply that with the rate $20k. This was what happened when bitcoin had it's ATH. In dollar currency people even paid more than $10 for transactions.

The last bitcoin transaction was only two days ago which I did to buy a service.  :)

I thought of that, and I think Lightning is a great concept. Also, it supports my opinion of Bitcoin - I think Bitcoin is a store of value. I decided not to use it, mainly because it requires me to maintain another wallet, and it has centralised control. Speed of confirmation is not so important with domain name sales. Especially when you consider registrar transfers, pushes are better, but they can still involve delays. This is why I believe that trust and escrow are more important than confirmation speed.

The cost of mining it is somewhere around $1-2. A lot of early miners might be hoarding it and it's not on large exchanges yet so that distorts the market somewhat.

If you extrapolate the same 0.00003064 to $20,000 that's still only $0.61. A lot has changed between now and a year ago to help keep tx fees down, in terms of satoshis. The last time fees were this low was 2 years ago, when the price of BTC was about $390.

So, anyone dumping their BTC for grim n ?

Theymos, if you really want to add grin as an alternative payment method for the forum, any plans on adding it for the Donator rank? And I suppose the price in grin will be always the same, like the one in BTC  ;D

This way in probably one year it will be cheaper to purchase a donator rank than a copper membership  ;D ;D


7$ vs 3.7$

By the time the friday price increase comes, you might buy a membership with a few cents

If the price spike up like it did for the ATH the this plain equation is not gonna work. Sure it will be a lot more in terms of dollar. Anyway, my point is that... We are in a forum where we are suppose to support bitcoin. Everything we do to promote bitcoin but when a character like theymos indirectly publicly vouch for something else then it will create a mess for sure.

I could not agree more with this user...

Once this Bcash guys will discover this they will take it to another level.

---

Blow me I should have seen this before. I just paid for my copper membership (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098624.msg49278972#msg49278972) in BTC LOL.

Hey, I believe we should only have BTC as payment method. We are Bitcoiner guys. Is n't it should be the whole point?

XMR is possible, but probably not the others.


Since the inflation rate is so high in the first ~year, I think it will probably go even lower, probably under $1, and I'd expect the price chart of the first year to be a general downward trend. Again, I don't particularly recommend buying this stuff, and I myself am not going to be buying large amounts soon. But if it survives for several years and ends up competing effectively with other coins on scaling and privacy, then the inflation rate starts becoming reasonable even despite its unlimited supply (see my comment here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5090427.msg49266991#msg49266991)), and we could at that point see an upward price trend. Even at $1 it'd be an extremely risky investment, but in any case it's an extremely interesting piece of tech.

And I'll be periodically adjusting the forum exchange rate, BTW.


Satoshi created Bitcoin and this forum in order to change the world, not to create a "Cult of BTC". In fact, Satoshi recommended (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1790.msg28917#msg28917) creating Namecoin, the first altcoin. (Though Namecoin ended up being one of the bolt-stuff-onto-cloned-Bitcoin systems that I've never really respected.) I'm not going to start jumping on every alt bandwagon and treating every cryptocurrency as just as good as any other, nor do I believe that grin is currently anywhere close to BTC in terms of overall utility. But grin has true merit, and if you're interested in Bitcoin for the same reasons that Satoshi created it (freedom, privacy, and interesting tech), then grin is worthy of acknowledgement.

How the forum is going to look at grin as far the payments/transactions are concerned?
Will it be ok to do payments/offer services  in grin in the sections that were exclusively marked for bitcoin?

It’s all well and good to have differing opinions on what or what shouldn’t work in a cryptocurrency, that part is completely understandable. But supporting a coin like grin on literally the first day it’s genesis block is mined is just... interesting, that’s all.

Some maximilast (like theymos has been in the past) might even call it “shilling”, but what do I know. I’m pretty positive theymos knows more than I do in general about crypto, plus he is an admin of the forum, so he can govern as he sees fit... I’m alright with that. I wouldn’t have any use to buying anything like copper membership on here so it doesn’t necessarily matter to me personally, I just felt a need to point out hypocrisy as I see it.

Btw LMDB, and especially bulletproofs, are things that both helped with scaling/memory issues in the past and drastically reduced fees.

Edit: I’m not saying Monero should be accepted over grin or anything like that either... I’m just saying bitcointalk should probably just stick to accepting only Bitcoin... if not, just don’t be surprised/annoyed when swarms of people are trying to “market” there favorite favorite shitcoin too because they might have an interesting tweak to the mimnlewimble code or whatever. It’s going to open Pandora’s box in theymos’s inbox. Lol

https://i.imgur.com/UXPYshb.png?1

What exactly is so terrible about the price history of DOGE? You could have done a lot worse holding many other coins. It is worth more now in terms of USD than it was even at the peak of its early pump.

I watched this early pump, I was there, I had some sells in my trade history in the 240s.

Doge has always been one of my favorite cryptoCURRENCIES..
I love sending doge around for its small fees, confirmation speed, high liquidity, can send micro amounts, great CURRENCY..

Yeah sure it's not deflationary like BTC and you probably won't get rich hodling it long term like BTC, but BTC is more aiming to be the most secure store of value and not necessarily to be used for everyday small payments.

The FEDs in charge of fiat currencies do have a bit of a point about inflation keeping the currency flowing, they don't do that by accident..
High deflation stops currency flow in its tracks. Their are plenty of threads about why people don't spend BTC..


I think it could be the best CURRENCY yet, to actually be used as a currency..
So what if Grin will only be $0.01 each in a few years. You can still send $1,000,000 if you have enough of them..  


I think their is a righteousness to the emissions rate of GRIN. The early miners aren't going to get instarich with an instamine, no premine, no ICO, and a good inflation/deflation rate in the long term for a CURRENCY..


Isn't this the holy grail of cryptocurrency? To be able to truly scale and be able to do what we naively thought/hoped that BTC would do?
Bring crypto to the masses, everyone from the rich to 3rd world countries, affordable for the poor, everyone can use it to buy their coffee every morning..

This is what we need if we are going to take the power away from the elite and banks. Eliminate the last excuses to use fiat..
We all can't use BTC or any other altcoin for every transaction we all make. All of the transactions simply will not fit in any crypto while still achieving decentralization.

Can GRIN do this? Can GRIN compete with VISA and remain decentralized and immutable with a fixed supply and no trust in 3rd parties?

Isn't this what we have been waiting for to change the world?
Or is everyone just interested in what they can make a quick $ off of..

No.


s/fixed supply/predictable supply/

Yes, that combined with its privacy is what makes it so exciting. You can probably achieve even greater scaling with BTC+LN, and I consider that quite likely (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5090427.msg49266991#msg49266991) to be what the economy actually goes toward, but grin is a very different and interesting alternative approach.

"Grin has a retarded inflation rate. How do you think its price will remain sustainable?"


Grin would have such a low inflation rate at one point that the increase of units would almost equal to 0. So...

For what you are accepting coins? Like what I can buy with them?

I'm not so sure about Donator ranks, but i really doubt you'll be able to buy those with Grin yet. (As 10BTC would equal 10% of Grin's daily volume  :P)

So there is nothing like atomic swap kind of things going on between the grin coins and the other coins? That I was thinking.

Grin has succeeding in reducing the size of the blockchain. However, it's still limited to 10 TPS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzHswLujMYc&feature=youtu.be&t=555), so the more significant scaling problem remains.
With it's adaptive blocksize, Monero can process >10 TPS (up to 1,700 theoretically). (https://youtu.be/DI4S6ek7fUI?t=1821)

ok thanks of the difficulty spikes . >:(

Haven't finished reading this thread yet, but watch out lest you become the next target of cryptohunter for that.  Just voice a modicum of support for Dash and you'll end up on the sharp end of his trolling stick.

Grin?  Never heard of it.  Not interested in it, even if Theymos is throwing his support at it--which makes me scratch my head a little.  But I'm obviously not nearly as knowledgeable as 95% of bitcointalkers as far as what constitutes a good altcoin anyway.

Meh, Jet Cash already had to face the grilling from that person. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098607.33 Cryptohunter decided to back off due to Jet Cash's age and not wanting to be a bully.

One good thing about this announcement is that it actually expose me more to grin, I was just hearing the name without any serious intention to research about it but spend most of my time today doing some research after I saw this announcement. Keeping an eye on the price though , if theymos loves it why shouldn't i 😂

Can we just hold a moment of silence for those who saw this announcement and went to buy at ATH what a massive drop GRIN just experiences over -90%

I can't wait for grin to be accepted as forum payments, maybe one day you'll accept the bitconnect tokens that people have and make them billionaires too.

Did not see this coming, definitely going to help get the wrinkles out of grin.

To those people commenting on the emission rate of grin, please check out the project's monetary policy document:

https://github.com/mimblewimble/docs/wiki/Monetary-Policy

If you really start thinking about it, it's an incredibly valuable experiment.

My 2ᵹ.

Grin also supports keybase for the slate exchange which solves both the key distribution problem and the authentication problem.

https://github.com/mimblewimble/docs/wiki/Wallet-User-Guide#keybase

keybase is a joke for security though

If I'm not mistaken, Grin has a 100 byte kernel baggage for each transaction that stays forever. So it might be more scalable than Bitcoin (an impressive feat considering that it adds a level of privacy as well), but still not Visa-level scalable. I'm not sure how it can be compared to LN's much better scaling.

How so? It uses PGP under the hood.

You are forgetting about security. Sure it may be able to confirm tons of tx’s quickly, but if some group of people want to 51% attack, you are fucked.  That’s what makes Bitcoin super valuable... most vetted for, most tested, most valuable cryptocurrency with a shit ton of hashing power to prevent bad actors from rewriting the ledger.

Just got my Copper, paid using Grin :) Sweet

Glad it worked!

quick and painless. Took about a minute. Nice implementation!

Grin in the long run reaches store of value functionality + deterministic money supply (inflation) provides assurance/expectations around that. Early on speculation but SoV feature there4 it can become digital money.

Inflation in the early years (first 4 yrs) is exactly -the same- as bitcoin's btw, but SoV in much longer term.

See here I read it twice already https://medium.com/@CryptoProfG/grin-money-explained-4-exploring-grins-monetary-model-e48b1761653

We should remember this post.
Maybe ten years from now it will be seen as this one:
;D

The community is working pretty hard on addressing these. Right now, it's all about getting the infrastructure going, and then hopefully soon we'll get a better user experience around it. Just a matter of time (and of course, everyone can help and speed things up).

cool. 8)

to anyone complaining that bitcointalk should only accept bitcoin:
supporting grin is a good way to test mimblewimble.
and mimblewimble could potentially improve bitcoin in some way, since it has an elegant solution for scaling & privacy.

Will review it and i may give it a shot (mining tho).

pretty interesting development especially with your other thoughts youve voiced in other thread(s) here on bitcointalk about grin

cool to see though -- nice to see people genuinely excited / interested about some projects w/ a bit of merit in the space lately as opposed to the last 6 months that have just felt totally dead.

TBH I would prefer to be able to pay with XMR instead of Grin since XMR is more stable atm. That being said, I think it is a good step overall to give credit and opportunity to true cypherpunk coins that are adding to the cryptospace. I do hope that this experiment of accepting Grin leads to the acceptance of XMR at a later date. In the interim, however, I think I will give Grin a go to purchase copper. Cheers!

Congratulations on this. Great move, theymos! We at CoinGecko are equally excited about Grin as well and are following things closely.
You are spot on about Grin price (https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/grin) having a downward trend at the start due to the limited supply.

https://i.imgur.com/9tVH73W.png

That's awesome to hear. I've mined a few so far and will be HODLing them, but this seems like a win win win. You can buy some grins, the forum gets more money (maybe) and maybe it'll help a little with adoption. It's very clunky and currently only a Linux wallet so who knows about the price. It could keep going down or skyrocket once it's easier to use.

There's still a lot to learn with grin! Everybody just keep reading as much as you can.

This is true but quite inaccurate data. This doesnt show how many grin was actualy bought for that price and it was serious bottleneck on the exchanges. It still is. Its a mess. Its stupid use 200$ ++ price even as real or rational.

But yes its downtrend like every crypto now, this inflation is more like longterm effect, this inflation of grin have absolutely no impact on this short term price decline.

I have mine grin for some days and test it.
My conclusion is that is coin is a crap and i cant find any reason for this coin to exists.
First it says that is anonymous but requires to open a port to your system to receive a payment.. lol. The other option to receive a payment is through emai... second lol...
Second. It has no limit cap to tokens inflation. 30 mil coin per year. And Dogecoin has no cap but is very easy to use it as an every day payment system. In the other hand grin is by design very difficult to use it as an every day payment system and of course with 30 million tokens per year no one will use it as a store of value.
Third. Chinese miners already exploit grin mining and from the first day mining centralised to big farms.
My conclusion is that Grin for sure is not Bitcoin 2.0 but is Bitcoin 0.1.

I don't know but I guess that the rate for grin is a fixed one, at
At the rate, theymos accepted higher rate than real-time price of Grin on exchanges at the moment.
No one knows where Grin will go next months.
Let's see.

Anyway, it is interesting to see that the forum eventually accpeted another payment gater, rather than only in bitcoin.

bad decision imo. Grin is another pure shitcoin. Nothing special.

What kind of software is required to mine it?

Anybody give me noob instructions?

We should probably move discussions about grin itself to the ANN thread in the altcoin discussion.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5090427.new#new

The discussion here should be limited to the pros and cons of Bitcointalk taking it as an payment, IMHO.

Here's a detailed guide (https://medium.com/@VoskCoin/how-to-mine-grin-coin-grin-voskcoin-mining-guide-26747b73f21c) from Medium, have a look.

You'd need Grin Gold Miner and some dependiy file(s).

As I was saying



0.00675676  BTC  ~  23.5$
2.252253333  ;D  (grin, lol)    ~  5$

Buying now a membership with grin is cheaper than buying it with BTC before the price increase

The prices and ratios in the forum's automatic payment handling are not permanent, but I only update them manually from time to time.

Honestly speaking I never heard of grin hence I never looked at the technology, so to be honest I do not have much technical knowledge about the coin either.

I did not mean "Cult of BTC". Excuse me If I gave you the wrong impression.

The point for me was - you are a brand ambassador of bitcoin (I am not saying bitcoin depends on you or depends on the forum. The legacy of bitcoin is enough to move alone as long as normal people accept it). When you step into something in this forum the entire community here give attention. Instead of talking about grin or anything else can we not inspire bitcoin developers?

Let's say grin has the best technology in the world, does that mean we all forget about bitcoin and move to grin? Sorry theymos may be I am not making sense. Think about Apple and Microsoft. They both believe in their own products and do everything to make their one THE BEST.

Anyway, it's your forum, satoshi trusted you with this forum. So, you do what you think is the best for the forum. But I guess you need to hear the community. I don't think many people here supported this new addition (I could be wrong by the way).

---

Well it's called offer LOL Take it!

Very cool to see this support. I also like the implementation. Well done theymos.

Time to get and share around some ᵹ.

I'm a Bitcoiner who likes the idea of BTC and GRIN in synergy.

as Adam Back says and Bitcoin dont have addresses in the first versions and the transaction between Hal Finney and Satoshi was p2p

https://twitter.com/adam3us/status/1087013943330172930

of course there is a flaw to your anonymity and security when someone use such a system. Adam Back reply the reason why Bitcoin add Bitcoin addresses

not very good:
- recipient has to be online (vs send to address recipient offline)
- IP address could change (many ISPs dynamic IP)
- recipient could have firewall or NAT (unreachable)
- TCP hijack could send funds to someone else (intercept/reroute)
- as no authentication

https://twitter.com/adam3us/status/1087151635510583296

Grin blockchain system demand from wallets to receive tokens to be in listen mode with an open port to your system and to expose your ip.
There and a much worst grin wallet from grin the wallet713 that your transaction relay from central servers....

 
lol

For the history it seems tokens based to mimblewimble are both crap and a very bad implementations. Today beam the other mimblewimble project stuck at at block 25079.

https://twitter.com/beamprivacy/status/1087294277531635713

Guys both of them are just shitcoins as any other shitcoin out there.

Grin certainly does not demand to send tokens via http and the method is altogether discouraged, it is only there for user convenience. The default method is via file exchange where you can choose yourself how to exchange files (also does not require anyone to be online or listening). You can also do the exchange via the keybase plugin and anyone is free to implement plugins for any communication method they like (Signal, email etc) via the exposed wallet interface.

Are you Grin mining?....
Mine Zilliqa at the same time....
Zilliqa ...Blockchain 3.0 , over 2800tps on pow with sharding.

https://blog.zilliqa.com/zilliqa-project-update-26-final-testing-before-mainnet-launch-75bf27cbc186


Remote/Dual Mining 
 PoW window is only 1 min per 2–3 hours (for 1 DS Epoch), dual mining is a logical choice for all miners to partake in, i.e., 99% uptime for mining ETH/GRIN, and 1% uptime for mining ZIL.
Therefore if you wish to setup the dual mining processes, you can simply run both Zilminer and ethminer software concurrently on your GPU rigs. However, do note that if you with to mine ZIL and ETH concurrently, your GPUs must have a vRAM of > 4GB in order to accommodate both ZIL’s DAG size (~1.02GB) and ETH’s DAG size (~2.84GB).

Can Grin be used to pay for forum ads as well?

Probably, but we'd negotiate a rate. You can't rely on the automatic-forum-payments rate for this.

I guess the argument is technically sound that Grin is different from most other altcoins... although there are plenty of shitcoins with the same backwards metrics that make the coin fundamentally moronic.

Theymos, for someone who touts the importance of decentralization above all else, your level of hypocrisy by allowing yourself to play such a central role in the crypto community simply because you were the first to jump major discussion mediums is quite astounding.

Take a look at the interesting and worthwhile developments of the past 5 years, and not just the few your buddies throw their weight behind.

We've built blockchains that are interoperable, language agnostic, free to use, highly scalable, highly secure (in some instances- more secure than Bitcoin)... the list goes on. Some of these are unpolished, like Grin (which you concede), but others are running as well oiled machines. Is there any argument behind your point of view besides ignorance of how the space has changed in the latter half of the decade? "I'm Theymos so I am right" only works so many times.

You seem to have mistaken me for some sort of politician. If anyone interprets anything I say/do as "I'm theymos so I'm right," then they have totally misunderstood me. I'm very interested in grin on a technical level (not so much for investment), and I didn't see any harm in supporting it, so I spent a few hours adding it to the forum. I'm not trying to make any grand statement here. If grin ends up failing completely, then that will not be too surprising.

Occasionally in other cases I might have an attitude of, "I'm doing it this way because I'm convinced that I'm right. If I'm wrong, show me." If you disagree with my view that all but a few altcoins are based 95-100% on marketing, with only very half-baked actual features/ideas, then that's fine; I won't stop you. Use one or more of those altcoins to build interesting things, and I will be happy to see the ecosystem usefully expand in surprising ways.

I don't think that me or someone else can change your stance on Grin coin, but I think you should spend a couple of mins to watch the following video:
Roger Ver on Bear Market, Bitcoin SV Hash War, Running a Dash Node and Increasing Adoption (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk02gVZMA9M&feature=youtu.be)
if you don't have to much time, watch directly at the 14 min 15 second timepoint. They mentioned about Grin coin.

I agree. I'm closely following the Grin development and will pick up a bag at some point. Mimblewimble is interesting tech. I'll just wait until the price stabilizes a bit first.

This will create hype for this Grin project. BTW, had this project doing bounty campaigns? I don't see any thread regarding with this project though many users here pointing out the goodness of this project. But sorry to say, I am not getting most of it. I have read theymos posts and its content which talks about the grin as a wallet and another opportunity to mine using the platform I guess. Hmmm....Business as Usual.

That's the core of the problem. You run the two largest communities in the space. Allowing yourself to unilaterally make decisions on behalf of these communities is a MASSIVE point of centralization that I don't think you would be fine with if the person running the show wasn't you. We saw Grin jump from $3 to over $200 on this announcement. I understand you may not have made this decision to influence the price of the coin, but the reaction is inevitable. What if you are wrong about Grin or you threw your support by some other project that turned out to be a scam? If someone needs to first show you that you made a wrong call and threw the weight of Bitcointalk and /r/bitcoin behind that call, it's already too late.

Incorrect. A couple of coins exchanged for extremely small amounts of money (I'm talking $20.00 worth of bitcoins for some grin at ridiculous prices) doesn't mean you or I could have actually sold at $200. Maybe one person sold 0.1 grin for that price. Great for them. Also, even if there was significantly more volume, on day 2 (after the 1440 block waiting period for coinbase transactions) the price would have ended up tanking just the same. Btw, the price started at $200 and dropped like a rock. Where are you seeing a pump from $3.00 to $200.00?

The grin community was already aware that Theymos liked it because of his post in the ANN thread. The technology is amazing. I'd suggest doing a little research. It's not bitcoin with a fancy hat and a new name, it's a brand new coin with brand new untested tech. Even if this impliment fails I think mimblewimble is here to stay (even if not in this exact form). Saying that this announcement somehow caused hype is hilarious. Why wouldn't the other post cause this amazing hype?

Lastly, how many grin do you really think bitcointalk has gotten from this so far? I doubt it's creating the amount of hype that you're talking about. I'm all for a 6666.66% pump, but it's not going to happen because Theymos decided to accept grin for copper membership etc. You and I both know that.

If he's wrong about grin I guess you're going to start a lawsuit right? That's the only sensible thing to do. /s

We're watching the Grin space too!

For those who want to know about sending and receiving Grin Tokens we've come up with a simple Guide to get you started at https://www.coingecko.com/buzz/how-to-use-grin-wallet-to-send-receive-grin-coins?locale=en

We're looking forward to testing Grin payment with BTCitcoinTalk.

The actual "pump and dump" might be overstated by the graphs, but where would it be trading without the announcement? Probably not at $4. Do you seriously think that an announcement from the largest and longest standing crypto community that they are, for the first time, supporting an altcoin for payments isn't a big deal?

I've actually taken some time to research Grin and have been familiar with MimbleWimble. MimbleWimble is cool and different: a lot of the other peculiarities are garbage. I mentioned this in the ann thread, but it makes no fundamental sense why a pure privacy coin should have an infinite supply. That debate is neither here nor there.

The sentiment that "every altcoin is a Bitcoin clone but this one!!" is complete garbage. Sure, 99% of altcoins are garbage, but that 1% still accounts for dozens of new and unique projects. The idea that new tech means it's worthwhile is silly as well. What about EOS? Really a joke of a project, but fits the fundamentals shared by Theymos and others as being worthwhile and different. It's built from the ground up, uses a system of governance and delegation, and redistributes the burden of use of the network. This is all quite different from Bitcoin. Why not add EOS as well?

Saying everything is stupid and a clone is a massive oversight of the development in the space for the past few years. That sentiment was valid until 2013~.

I feel like the price will continue going down slowly over time so it doesn't really matter if it's $1, $5 or $10 today. I'm not that short sighted.

EOS is basically Ripple with smart contracts. It's the complete and total opposite type of governance than any cypherpunk project. Not exactly your best argument. On-chain Censorship isn't a feature and if EOS was accepted here I'd be extremely concerned.

Forking Bitcoin and making it more private, more fungible, adding smart contracts, asset layers - whatever it may be, they all basically function the same way. Sure there are little wins  here and there, but they can easily be added to Bitcoin if they're a viable soution. Mimblewimble is fundamentally different and will be interesting to watch in the future. Grin's devs thought of the most fair way to launch the coin and the most fair way to distribute them. Do I agree with the infinite supply? Hell no. But it sounds like a 9/10 for me vs. beam which is 1/10 (mimblewimble). It's all an experiment, but I'd rather be part of this experiment than some half-baked idea that's just taking the old tech and slapping someone on it. It's boring, it's uncreative and it's not going to wow anyone. Mimblewimble (and thus grin) wows me. Apparently it also wows Theymos and lots of others in the community.

You don't have to like it, but it's already happened so you do need to get over it.

There is a new thread, being an offshoot of the Wall Observer thread, for all useless Grin price speculation chatter and TA (preferably drawn with crayons). 

Link here:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5102334.0

I, too, would be extremely concerned if EOS were accepted here. It's an awful project. But- it's different. According to Theymos that's the number one indicator of worth of an altcoin. The technical overlaps between EOS and Ripple are quite minimal... only overlap is they are both centralized.

Regardless, if anything that is blockchain is "just another Bitcoin clone" what about the dozens of coins that don't use a blockchain: IOTA uses tanglenet. NANO is DAG. Beam is MimbleWimble (how would you feel if we were having this conversation about Beam and Grin was the one left out?) Not to mention how shortsighted of an argument it is that blockchain = Bitcoin... a majority of the top alternative blockchains utilize consensus mechanisms far different from Bitcoin. Saying every altcoin is a BTC clone is ridiculously ignorant of the current state of the space and the direction it's gone over the past few years.

The point of having a discussion about this is because Theymos has been taking the authoritarian approach on various matters for years. We've been having the same conversation since Bitcoin XT (and probably earlier, tho I wasn't around for that). For people who actually care about decentralization, the role Theymos plays in the space is one of the biggest shortcomings throughout said space.

Since he has undivided control over the future of his own position, the only thing there is to do is talk about it.

I don't know much about all the other grudges you have with theymos, but Beam vs Grin dilemma seems quite obvious, as in - there isn't one. Grin doesn't have a "CEO", no premine, no dev tax. Definitely more "cypherpunk" project of the two.

altcoins are being shilled by administrators now?  ??? whats going on btctalk

Ya, Beam is cool and their software appears more polished than Grin, but I just couldn't get past the founder's reward.

I think we have a third player for this start of the mimblewimble adoption; its WINK (https://mw-w.ink/leer/) another altcoin with 42 coin is the max supply, no ICO, no premine, no mandatory developer tax. More assets will be forked as i understood, check this link (https://mw-w.ink/leer/index.php/flavors/).

Oh dear lord. Idk where to even start. Maybe just a quote and I'll leave it at that.


All other fiat and crypto is going to zero. Watch out guys.

So it's like Grin's Doge?

It's like all coins and currencies ever, all stocks and all stores of wealth combined into one. It also happens to be the 3st implimentation of mimblewimble. What a time to be alive.

I mean - a parody coin, starting with the name.

really nice move, this is solid approval from bct

it's messed up. btc is crippled so grin is alternative now?
sketchy.

This post alone has caused the price of Grin to tank 50%. The price manipulation has to stop!  >:(

price manipulation and crypto go hand in hand

haha, that's very funny but on another hand you were very right when you posted it in Grin's ANN thread.
Here is quote: "I will definitely be buying grin fairly early on. Probably won't bother figuring out mining, though. Note that due to the way grin emits its coins, prices are likely to start out high and steadily drop for the first few weeks/months."
Yeah, as it seems price falls and falls currently, great time to buy or mine this coin but I have one question, rarely think you'll answer but I hope so.
How did you know about grin so early? Was it posted somewhere? Just want to know because I highly doubt you read all alt announcement thread because od busy time.

I read the original mimblewimble paper in 2016 and was very interested. I mentioned it a few times on Reddit and here (eg. here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1342065.msg16609729#msg16609729)). A while later I heard that someone was working on it in the form of grin, but I then mostly forgot about it. I wasn't actively following it. But luckily in December or thereabouts I stumbled upon some article on coindesk or similar that mentioned its impending release.

I remember reading about it as a potential scaling solution a while back also.

 Lord Voldemort Is Trying to Save Bitcoin (https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/gv5wej/lord-voldemort-tom-elvis-jedusor-is-trying-to-save-bitcoin-mimblewimble)

I was surprised to see Grin as a payment option, especially on bitcointalk. I suppose it's always nice to have an alternative choice for odd scenarios.
It's an interesting project that i'm keeping an eye on also, will be neat to see where it goes  :)

To be honest, I found interesting thing.
I spent a few minutes to check previous pages, what I found is no one in the topic pay attention on the rate for forum's Copper Membership in Grin coin changed.
The new rate has been almost double its past one.

New rate:

Past rate:

Anonymint recently posted his take of Grin. It's worth looking at:

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/re-anonymint-re-anonymint-scaling-decentralization-security-of-distributed-ledgers-20190209t143757701z

I've just noticed this thread and I have to say that I'm glad for this decision. I really like GRIN, it doesn't seem to have any weaknesses  8)

I think the current lack of a windows wallet with GUI is a bit of a hinderance for many users that could be considered a weakness.

Yeah, but I was thinking about the idea behind the project: it is strong, not speculative and new. Technicalities will be overcome soon IMO.

This is false. In other news, Guy stole that forum account from the company and its creditors.

Aren't there at least 3 GUI wallets now? Idk about Windows. I don't follow it closely as it doesn't affect me.

Depending on who you're willing to trust, I imagine there are many out there...  If you're speaking about their core team (not sure what to call them) and windows, the next official release is expected to support Windows.

https://github.com/mimblewimble/grin/releases

As MimbleWimbleCoin is on its way and it would probably be better than Grin & Beam, will it be accepted on BitcoinTalk as well?

Link? With a horrible name like that I can only assume it's a copy/paste of grin or beam. I also found nothing from googling.

With all if that being said, I doubt bitcointalk would start accepting 'mimblewimblecoin'.

1. Wait for a potential innovative or promising technology to launch (grin).
2. Fork it and create a shitcoin out of it to go with the hype.
3. Put 10% for the dev team (easy money) and another 30% for the airdrop (cheap advertising)[1].
4. ??
5. Profit (?)

It's always the same everytime a new "good" coin launches.

[1] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5119957.0

Good to see Theymos recognized Grin immediatly. Grin has now windows UI wallets, niffler and grin++. Ironbelly have ios and android mobile wallet. Somebody donated 50 coinbase btc from 2010 to grin, which is quite mindblowing to me. Theymos you can now add grinbox permanent address, or maybe can also add via file that sends you back .response file? Price wise, it expectedly retraced towards 1-2$ the correction was big, as a every new pow blockchain. Maybe just an idea for a new forum smiley icon, you can use grin logo smiley? Do you have any updated thoughts Theymos?

Unfortunately, it seems, MWC is already performing neck to neck with GRIN & BEAM.

https://www.hotbit.io/exchange?symbol=MWC_BTC

https://www.hotbit.io/exchange?symbol=GRIN_BTC

https://www.hotbit.io/exchange?symbol=BEAM_BTC

Are you really comparing the price of a coin which has a volume of $30 millions (GRIN) with one that has a volume of $22k (MWC)? Is this a joke? :D

Love the tech behind Mimble Wimble, but really dont like unlimited emission. Looks like there are several Grin forks out there though.

Age of MWC mainnet is around a week, whereas GRIN mainnet is around a year old. Its natural that GRIN will have more volume than MWC.

MimbleWimbleCoin (MWC) fixes this. Only 20 million MWC will ever exist.

Then, comparing their price is dumb.

It's natural that MWC may have a higher price knowing that an order buy of 1.1 BTC right now would double its price. There is no liquidity. :)

What do you think about it now?

I still don’t care, sorry. I remain only holding Bitcoin.

Btw, I can’t visit these links since this exchanges tries to force me to download their app. :D

I never prompted you to offload Bitcoin to HODL MWC anyway.

I can visit all the three pages without downloading any app from them. May be you are using mobile and hence facing the issue. Price of MWC, GRIN and BEAM can be checked at CoinRanking.com as well.

Does there any available stats about how many users used Grin to purchase the Copper membership? Anyway to know if users are still using this option?

In last replies, there was an unsolved issue about Grin network. Posters didn't update about it.

*Sorry about bumping this old thread. I think i can post my qustion here without the need to create a fresh meta topic.

So far, I cannot find more and latest stats for users that used this method to buy CM except from this that theymos wrote 2 years ago.
I had never used grin myself for any purpose. :D

There were a total of only 10 grin transactions. Currently grin is not accepted because it broke a while ago and I never got around to fixing it.

I personally bought from the forum all of the grin received, at the market price when it was received: 80.128295191 grin for 0.0118213 BTC. Not my most successful trade... ;)

0.0118 to 0.0004 O0
https://i.imgur.com/Q6cHVCT.jpg

You had previously claimed to have mined in 2010. If you still have any of the coin you mined from 2010, I can more or less guarantee that you will never have a trade that is more successful than that trade.

There are estimates that it cost approximately $0.069 to mine a block in 2010, which is equal to approximately 0.138 cents per bitcoin.

To state the above in a different way, since 2010, the if someone were to acquire a bitcoin at a price of 0.14 cents, they would have increased their investment by approximately 457,000x.

For comparison, Peter Tiel, in 2004 purchased Facebook shares at a price that gave it a $5 million valuation (https://www.businessinsider.com/how-facebook-was-founded-2010-3). Facebook is now worth approximately $948 billion, or ~189,000x what it was worth in 2004, however Tiels investment was likely diluted, probably at least by a factor of 2, if not more, so the actual return would be something along the line of an upper bound range of ~90,000x. For Tiel to have a better trade than theymos, the market cap of Facebook would need to go to ~$4.18 trillion while bitcoin stays flat.

IMO, the only coin that has even a 1% chance to exceed the market cap of bitcoin is etherum. The low price of etherum was around $0.66 in 2015. However due to differences in the available supply, this is equal to approximately $4.1. In other words, if someone had purchased etherum at its $0.66 low in 2015, in order to realize a 457,000x return, the price of etherum would need to reach a rate that would be similar to bitcoin being at ~$27.06 million per bitcoin.

In other words, someone that mined bitcoin in 2010 and has not yet sold is going to see investment returns that will not be seen again in their lifetimes.

Theymos's first (or at least oldest remaining) post:
Admin was so clueless back then :D

I will say this: if someone wants to send me an extra random 0.44BTC, I will not complain about it  ;D ;D

Still beats the deal you made with Slickage.

Only 10 transactions since lunch! I guess This is out of expectaction for all of us.
Well, the most important for me that the payment system with grin is always live. And how bitcointalk community didn't get hyped by "Grin accepted by the number one crypto forum".