Bitcoin Forum

Hello Bitcointalk community!

Yesterday for the creation of a topic [Challenge] Create your Trust list (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5096402.0) TMAN gave me a "red trust".

https://c.radikal.ru/c31/1901/ac/128778bd8df9.png (https://radikal.ru)

What is this topic for which give a negative trust, you ask? Here is the opinion of respected people, about the scope and content of my topic and the actions of TMAN:



TMAN accuses me of abuse the DT system and what does he do? This person creates a topic that really abuses the DT system!
Massive abuse in the Russian section. of TMAN (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098584.0)

Now look at the results:

- What are the abuses in the DT system as a result of my actions:

1. Nothing!

- What abuses in the DT system as a result of TMAN actions:

1. All honored users of the Russian local Board have a negative level of trust in the dt list:

What are these people guilty of, you ask? Nothing! Their guilty according to TMAN is that they wrote in my topic!

2. Several users from this list as well as I received a "Red trust".

https://a.radikal.ru/a42/1901/2b/7d1ee83df305.png (https://radikal.ru)

What are these people guilty of, you ask? Nothing!

How are we going to tolerate these "thugs" like TMAN in the list of the DT?

My suggestions:

1. Remove TMAN from DT1 and DT2 list. Include him in Blacklist from future selection.

2. Check out the other participants of this outrageous collusion on the availability of his of multiple accounts.

3. Remove from the DT1 from the list and add all participants of this outrageous collision in Blacklist from future selection.

I personally don't find any abuse of the system by you and this seems to be common practice when it comes to putting trust on single users. I just find it as an discussion to get a local representative in the DT and that is a very fair desire of any person working in local boards. It should not be pointed as an abuse of trust network in any way.

There could be many more such discussion occurring behind this forum on other social mediums but that is just out of control of the forum and we cannot stop it.

TMAN has absolutely not abused his position. He is free to exclude anyone at any time for any reason. Now, if you really want to talk about abuse let's start with this:

https://i.imgur.com/K4UpmaB.png

A lot of people seem to be confusing the trust system with the merit system. Leaving trusted feedback for being a "honored member" or "merit source" makes no sense. I have conducted a lot of deals of deals with Tman (most being over $10k), all without the use of escrow. Tman acts like a cunt from time to time but I would easily trust him with my priv keys.

ill post this here are you may of missed it.



@DabLjat in bold unless you missed it - untrustworthy attacks wont make this better as I will have another reason not to trust you to be anywhere near DT and that is these emotional outbursts.

TMAN is just doing his job, and I don’t think there’s an abuse on his power. If you feel bad about what you get, then prove to him that you’re innocent, but.....

These says it all, same day and almost same comments there might be no abuse but you must go with the process and don’t make any move that can make the situation worst.

Nice another TMAN's Princess .
Mate, I guess you're a womanizer :P you have so many princess out here.
I advice you to make use of contraceptives. This might help you a bit.

Look like decentralization of DT caused a lot of problem. User who become DT overnight have no idea how to use DT.  
Why not forum start a DT room for the DT where they discuss with each other, understand the system better.

Look like Theymos need to add one more condition that you have given feedback to at least  10 distinct user before Jan 2019 to be included in DT.
Those who started giving feedback after announcement of trust system, only score of 1 will be taken for each month no matter how many feedback you give. I guess these people will get 10 month to understand how to give feedback or trust.

Everybody now clearly able to see their judgement also when somebody include them in the DT custom trust list.

It doesn't concern us mate as long we don't make a wrong move on these Cult. Let them be, in fact this is an open forum, everybody has his/her own understanding in terms of these rules.
Neither I, can give -ve trust whenever I like, I can exclude all of them whenever I like. It's just a matter of understanding for each personality of every individual here.



Then, what if the person has committed numerous times of crimes? He will definitely get away of having more red scores just because of that.

Here's some context for these ratings and for the OP's complaint:

The Russian board voted TheFuzzStone into DT1. TheFuzzStone has the OP and some other users in this trust list therefore making them DT2 members. Some of these users, including the OP, immediately posted numerous positive trust ratings without references. This, as well as some of TheFuzzStone's comments indicating his inability to separate "trust" from "like" prompted some DT1 members (including myself) to exclude him. So these users, including the OP, are no longer in DT. All this happened within a few hours on Jan 14th.

This upset quite a few members of the Russian community but the fact is that this is exactly how the system is supposed to work. I have tried to explain to them that a more qualified DT1 member would benefit them a lot more, not to mention that they already have other DT2 members among them so there is no lack of scam busting power or whatever they're looking for regarding DT.

TMAN wears his heart on his sleeve, most of us here know that, but perhaps the Russian board not so much. I'd go the cheesy route and suggest everyone step back and start over but I know that's not gonna work.

You not understanding the purpose of my topic created a new topic in which you think a huge amount of nonsense, then based on this fictional nonsense paint people's trust and make the largest local Board in the forum in a negative trust.

This behavior is typical for the Nazis-let's first shoot, and then figure out who is to blame. And then you ask what we are so nervous and emotional?

The problem could be solved peacefully without emotion writing in our topic, or raising the question in the topic DefaultTrust changes.

You, instead of sitting down and talking, decided to use brute force as usual and get now the "revolt senseless and merciless in the best Russian traditions"


I think that says it all! Nothing to add!

I am happy to sort this out civilly without a total war - I dont need the red army after me, I live to close..

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098962.0

i'll stick this here - as I already have said AlexSr has my vote, I have seen nothing other than excellence from him, the posters in meta not so much.

Up to these guys really - they can keep getting all autistic about it or try to realize that some of us have the forums best interest at heart and not a total personal agenda

Are you ready to provide a list?

As soon as they see a decent list of DT2 with proportional representation of Russian local Board - then all questions will disappear!

Everyone has the right to give their opinion on the bitcointalk forum, whether it's wrong or right, @TMAN does what he has to do, and @DabLjat responds to what he knows, so for that to be true or false I think have to go back to @theymos rules how DT1 system is running properly, forum rules.


The point of this problem is actually here, this is clearer right and wrong.

Link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098584.msg49279469#msg49279469

---

All diseases have a cure, and all problems speak with the heart or head cold all problems are solved.

Sorry for my English.

I do not understand why I was also added to this list. I was just trying to understand how the new DT system works in the Russian locale. I'm an honest man, miner. I'm a person, not someone's alts. Registered on the forum less than a year ago, when I learned about the bounty. For six months of participation in social bounty companies, I realized that it does not make money. I participate only in signature, create sets of stickers for telegrams, animation. I have not bought or sold any merit. The more I communicate on the forum, the more I learn new information. This forum is really very good.

Not everybody can be considered scams and conspirators.

TMAN did not answer my question, and for me it is very important! (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098584.msg49282667#msg49282667)

Yep tman is a scumbag and a moron he is certainly an abuser of the trust system

Let's get him gone before he does more damage.

A list of what? If I see someone qualified I'll surely include them. You don't need my list. There are Russian DT2 members with no trust activity. Maybe you can start with a petition to them to make use of the system. Maybe you can push to show trust ratings on boards rampant with scams (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=72.0). There are probably other things that can be done to improve the system instead of handing out green ratings to your buddies.

There is nothing wrong with building a local Russian trust network. But since DT1 and DT2 levels are also part of the forum-wide default network you shouldn't expect to be in it if you build your network out of "likes".

You'll include anyone dirt bag. Nobody trusts you one inch out side of meta club.

You have added a proven liar and people implicated in extortion schemes and escrow abuse and trust abuse

You should be taken off DT at once.

I think I asked a simple question. You said that there are other representatives of the Russian local Board in the list of DT2. Are you ready to provide this list? On the basis of what data did you conclude about the sufficient representation of Russians in the lists of DT1 and DT2?

You got it wrong , this score is not the tagged score that you are seeing in other user's profile.

This will be a new kind of eligibility score to become a DT1 member. If you have already given feedback to 10 or more distinct user before the announcement new trust system   then it will make your score more or equal to 10. Community member can see your rating to 10 distinct user and can make  a verdict who good is your judgement and how active you was previously.

So what new users that had not make any feedback yet?
Now if they make feedback to 10 distinct user in a day or in a month should I take their score as 10?

Irrespective of how many feedback they do to distinct user in a month, their max score for a month will be 1 and it will take them minimum 10 month to be eligible for DT and community will also able to see their judgement before voting them for DT.

Unfortunately the DT algorithm doesn't work like that,theymos having some criteria to select the DT1 members and the people who are trusted by DT1 will become DT2 and those two level of DT members can give feedback which will start to appear on the trust score of any profile.

I winder why we need DT2 level of feedback when anyone can become DT1,so just remove DT2 list and keeping DT1 alone for default trust will make the system more trusted and stable.

I initially thought the quote from theymos was faked, but upon investigation it is not. Lol.

---

The problem with the new trust system is that you do not need to be viewed as trustworthy by anyone that matters in order to get on DT1. This means several people with a little bit of power, such as those TMAN is close with/to, can effectively control who is on DT1, both adding people and excluding people.

I am not a fan of the new DT system however, TMAN and his clique should all be blacklisted from being on DT1, as most of them engage in behavior consistent with organized crime, and best case they are very shady. They often leave many contentious ratings and have done so without consequences.

He has admitted giving red trust for posting facts

What part of that can not penetrate your thick skull?

Is there something wrong with you?

Next you will say lauda is not a proven liar.

Shut up repeating nonsense over and over.

Got any proof to back up allegations like that?

Well I have proof they lie and proof they abuse the trust system

So in full knowledge of that you can see the links in my sig do not suggest these people are suitable for DT

Tman and lauda posted a negative review at the same time which leads us to believe they are the same person or are connected and having read laudas previous extortion attempt explains what cunning games they play.

Tman left me trust abuse for providing facts about laudas trust abuse and the fact lauda is a proven liar.

They are implicated in the same extortion scheme

Tman kisses laudas ass and does what he is told when he is told.

Most DT here are either part of the gang or scared of the gang so don't expect any help from them.

Expect more asskissers to this gang recruited because their stamp of approval is now required to get on DT

Can you explain all of the other negative reviews and how they should be dismissed? There appears to be quite a few. I doubt they are all sockpuppets of Lauda.  :D I see even Ognasty has chimed in with a recent negative trust rating for different reasons. (Although it appears in untrusted  feedback at the moment.)

The ring does not demand anilingus ( whoops, is that a gay joke)

Are you referring to my rave review from Cluster2k? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=18201)
Warning, some reference links to other reviews are NSFW.

So, I myself to search for Russian in section DT2? Are you not ready to answer for your words?

Apparently tomorrow will have to do a new topic with a comparative analysis of the number of Russian users on the forum, number of posts in the Russian local Board and the number of Russian users at lists DT1 and DT2.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but to summarize: You believe TMAN is abusing DT for excluding people he believes are abusing DT?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jne9t8sHpUc

He being a member of the list DT1 publicly encouraged other list members to remove all honored users of Russian local boards are not having any good reason. The result of his actions is presented in my 1 post.

If you think this behavior is normal for a DT1 member, I don't think so.

You thinking that something is not a good reason =/= something actually not being a good reason.

The charge of abusing the trust system is a very serious one. There is such a thing as a proof.

Are you ready to cite abuse proofs for each user included in this list? If you are not ready - it's pointless conversation.

What does this have to do with the number of posts or users? Trust system should be based on users whose judgement can be trusted. It doesn't make any sense to link that to user counts or post counts. It often takes years for one to earn such trust.

By my count you have three or four DT2 members. I have re-added chimk who got excluded earlier and I believe he would make a good DT member and seems to be willing to learn how things work.

I don't need to do anything. People are free to exclude you for even the remote suspicion of any collusion/abuse. From what I've seen so far in that section, you are doing both.

Can you list them?

The two moderators and chimk. There was someone else but the name escapes me now (I was thinking Alex_Sr but he seems to be bombarded with exclusions).

If you carefully read the topic for which I redtrusted TMAN - you would see how acute the problem is the lack of users able to leave colored reviews in the trust. I'm not talking about a personal trust that takes years to make. I'm talking about the ability to leave color reviews to dozens and hundreds of farm accounts that have bred in our locale.

How does this relate to the number of messages in the locale? Directly connected! Number of posts in Russian locale: 4 095 224 Posts. This is about 10% of all forum posts. You realistically consider that 3-4 users enough to process such number of posts? If the DT2 sheet is now about 300 people, the representation of Russia there should be at least 20-30 people. Less easy to handle. I'm not particularly interested in representation in DT1 but our representation in DT2 requires a serious increase.

realy? so why you buthurt when im and others exclude you ? we are also free to exclude you and your mafia


and it realy true ::)

p.s
each sensible user should immediately remove default trust and make own list

What? The other moderator (not xandry) has no business in DT IMO.

Great achivement, you have 3-4 million shitposts.

I agree but the main issue you will have is that all the power was just handed to them because ultimate system controller power for DT resides with earned (cycled gamed undeserved merit)

ask loyce, pharmacist of tman, fox pup, bla bla any of these to provide you with some of their best, insightful and thought provoking posts.... that you  would expect such high merit holders to have by the 100's...... and.....

You will get nothing. These fools can not provide any content here except parroting crap they already got spoon fed to spam their sigs.

Most of these low functioning keyboard bullies are mentally deficient and yet seek to show their high merit scores as some kind of guarantee/certificate that they are valuable and can provide great posts here. NO.

Then you present them facts and they shrink away.

Or you ask them for evidence for their claims .... vanish.

Theymos is no longer the only the decision maker, that's the whole point of the new system. I strongly disagree with his assesment of your collusion.

Yeah, no.

Nope.

Immature adults reacting as immature adults usually do. I have not expected anything more from you.

Doing some digging and found the ass kissers here...what's up?

Anybody can post trust ratings. Many of those posts are in the altcoin board, which doesn't show DT scores so being a DT member makes little difference. On the other hand, non-DT members posting trust ratings can show responsible use of the trust system and earn their place in DT. You're wrong to assume this takes less time than earning trade trust. Trusting one's judgement is different and likely more complicated.

And DT members don't need to read all posts. Scams can get reported by any user. DT members can review and act. Putting unqualified users into DT would just make it worse.

So again, instead of disrupting the trust system for the rest of the forum perhaps you can work on improving what you already have.

This forum is abused by individuals who have gained trust via fake or longer accumulation. It seems that once these individuals have gotten to a certain trust reach they feel as if they now magically are allowed to abuse that power to deliberately abusing new members and leaving negative feedback on others without any valid reason. The individuals I'm talking about are the ones we spoken to on this forum, most of which we've never even heard of until out of randomly someone leaves us negative feedback just because they felt like it, and the mods barely even listen, clearly they are doing this and you can see, the weird thing is that each time we started.a thread about these individuals, the mods removed it, yet they let these individuals go around leaving people negative feedback and calling others names. This isn't acceptable, like you seriously need to grow up...and what's going on with the extortion attempt? I want in...

Maybe you are just mad that you scams have failed, maybe? :D

So why have proven liars and those that support liars? seems you should be excluded at once.

Nah I know how to to deal with silly kids like yourself...you'll see

I don't seem to recall you asking me for my best posts, but if you insist, I am quite proud of my coverage (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1685559.msg16993924#msg16993924) of the 2016 unofficial global moderator election. I do have hundreds more amazing posts, as you say, but I don't want to make this thread all about me.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1764757.0

I am not sure if you have seen the above thread but there it one example.

There are other examples of them protecting each other and other examples that are not as bad as the above.

https://i.imgur.com/9S6piOV.png
https://i.imgur.com/hbHznrB.png


I just hope that the two moderators, which are included by theymos, are staying away from all this folk.

I hope that members can reset their thinking.

A lot of the people that are currently distrusting each other are ultimately on the same side.

Yet together we can be much stronger in the fight against scams.

A distrust war doesn't benefit anyone in the long run. It will create warring fractions and coups.

We don't want scammers and we don't want the forum to be just spam from a massive account farm.

Spam and shitposts will drive the good posters away.

I'm in a neutral position on this whole topic and have not taken a side in this conflict. I'm against spammers and scammers.

I think Russian representation on the DT system is important. If the right people are on the DT system then the co-operation between the Russians and the English speaking DTs will result in more scammers and spammers being caught, tagged and banned.

Russian is a complex language and it is easy to misunderstand innuendo, jargon and slang.



Also there is a massive risk involved in removing existing DTs from DT positions. Even controversial characters have done a massive amount of good for this forum that is undone if they are removed from DT.

I really hope that both parties can reconsider their positions and come to a compromise. I've started some dialogue between some of the parties via PM.


Part of that is also discussing community values. Discussion about acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Community values. DT (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5099391.0)

I was asking for proof, not for more allegations.

Especially for the gang that organized the Russian genocide in the DT lists.

https://b.radikal.ru/b42/1901/88/b8c5b839b10d.jpg (https://radikal.ru)

"We do not want war, but who will come to us with a sword - from the sword and die. In fact stood, stands and will stand the Russian land!"
The Holy Grand Prince Alexander Nevskiy

No. I am fairly certain that this is not the case. You can clearly see that based on sent ratings, trust lists (mind the exclusions, the inclusions are more important) and how they approach the whole subject to begin with.

Hello OP, I think you have skipped an option in the poll.
The poll is like-
"What to do with abuser TMAN?"
Option 1: Exclude
Option 2: Exclude
Option 3: Exclude

There are people who belong to TMAN's gang and they would vote for "Keep TMAN as he is currently." Please, always include all probable voting option  :D

@lauda - its my gang now - see...

This vote - an example of what choice was given to respected and honored users of the Russian locale - no choice was given, only total genocide!

I would not bother to comment here if it was limited/the poll was created in Russian Community  ;D Make sense.

No - they could of been grown ups and sent a PM, discussed in the thread or even not retaliated and tried to sort this out. Tagging me, excluding me and others plus including those excluded by us is totally retarded - you aint helping yourself or your cause here.

I think OP you are doing nothing but a waste of time. You should learn the lesson earlier from the voting result. Lol still no vote submitted on your vote machine :D Everyime people don't use words to support anything,sometime we should learn from the activities. Your only  intention is to exclude TMAN from the DT list but already you understand that how much popularity TMAN got as a DT.

Because I don’t want newbies and uneducated people losing funds. It’s idiotic what these guys are doing, if they want to trade the local section then let them, we cannot let it impact the main forum. Bounty hunters are everywhere, account farms as well - scammers are rife, I mean check the lending section and see that DT is needed

I vote that TMAN changes his name to DTMAN.

Yeah always i got the similar thinking for newbies where they joined the forum to have some benefits but in vain these scamers rob their fund. Without having DT members activity it was quite difficult to chase those fraud and scamers. Bitcointalk forum has a large value in the whole crypto world. We can't let those scamers to destroy the fame of this forum. Thats the reason from the beginning i tried my best to catch those heartless scamers. I hope if we can work together its definitely   possible to make a scam free atmosphere in bitcointalk.But we can see where a DT member tag someone for fraudulent or abusive activities there these guys start to blame on DT by rising many false issues. Its really been a concern for them who works to present a inclusive forum. 

TMAN not alone abuses DT system, actmyname and even Lauda abuses DT system and it will be always until DT1 alive or Theymos will remove they manualy

I don't think it will happen. Why theymos will block them from DT1 without proper reason ? Just say theymos did it then someones else will do same. So how long it will repeat ? Are you believe there is no solution except block them manually? It will be fine open thread on reputation if any DT tag you without proper reason. There are lot of DT for reviews. I can't tag you without proper reason. You are free to open thread against them and all others DT will check it. Since trust isn't moderated by forum theymos will not interfere about it if there is no obvious case.

We should stop now this war. Look forward to solve the issue rather then make more crazy situation. Come on this thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5099822.0) let's try to solve issue with constructive discussions. Nothing will happen with slogans.

And noticed OP made poll but there all options include Remove TMAN from DT1, Lol. So how will vote TMAN fans  ;). This is the one kind if manipulation in my opinion.

it not work
last year actmyname tagged me without reason without proofs
i opened thread and lauda's mafia trolled me
you can se how they trolled other users that tagged without reason if you not one of them

not im beginned this war
and this war may end only after lauda and she's pets removed from d1

This proves my point - you got issues - keep on at it while the rest of the forum is trying to be civil and work out a resolution to a sticky situation.

Keep your shit up because I am sure you will win against everyone else.

your proves point so stupid as you  ::)   ( must be it for asshole reason)
just you advised me to continue the war you are so aggressive person
i not like war but all scammers ( e.g Lauda) enemy for me ever and ever

This may be a language issue - so I have bolded the more relevant part of what I have said.

Well said ... I agree. Once proven untrustworthy then no chance to become trustworthy.

Sorry to see you feel that way.. Well, I was going to say keep up hope and you might gain some rep down the line but if you say so.

Again a baseless and groundless statement.

Prove I have acted untrustworthy or your statement is net negative and untrustworthy itself.

Acting like a complete and total idiot while spamming 13k posts where a majority of the recent ones are troll posts is untrustworthy to me.  That holds some ground I'd say.

Define and then prove trolling.

Until you can you are making false claims and are net negative.

Sorry you do not understand how to debate.

Also by making these claims you are starting off topic comments. Please stay on topic or justify your groundless claims elsewhere.

you still not understand he is proven liar and asshole?
all of them liar and tagged users without proofs and wrong reference

Pick any of (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098149.0) these threads to (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098315.0) see the mental (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098707.0) state you are in (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098591.0) which IMO deem (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5095257.0) you untrustworthy (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5099936.0). As such I think that any claim or comment you make is best to be ignored.