Bitcoin Forum

Their interest rates are competitive. They claim to lend out those money to institutions....

However, I know only that they are backed by Gemini but not much else.

I'm trying to estimate the counterparty risk so please help me with anything you know about them and the team?

https://blockfi.com/team

Crypto-Backed Lending Platform Blockfi Approved to Operate in California (https://news.bitcoin.com/crypto-backed-lending-platform-blockfi-approved-to-operate-in-california/)


I think they are legitimate, but I do not know if it is advantageous to use their services or not. This is for you to decide.

If I remember correctly, their annual interest rates is at around 7%? While definitely not a bad deal, decide for yourself if you're willing to leave funds to a service for a good amount of time, and if it's worth the risk or not. Risk meaning potential issues like hacks, regulations, and such. While they might be taking their security seriously, these things(especially hacks) should always be one of the factors for your decision.

They've just reduced the interest rates paid to anyone who deposits above 25 BTC or 500 ETH to 2%. Why would you even dream of taking that risk for that little?

It's still 6.whatever below that amount but if they cut the rate at that level after a month or so there's nothing to stop them doing it again tomorrow.

And they're not backed by Gemini. Gemini have been contracted to store the coins. Nothing more. They can easily still have the coins and wind up owning far more. You can be 'legit' and still fuck up.

This third-party service is asking a third-party to hold the funds for them. In the event of loss of funds due to hacks and whatnot, I'm afraid coin owners and users will have a pretty hard time determining who to run after, as I'm pretty sure both services will point fingers once they are on the said situation. The 'legit' services fucking up hard are pretty much rare, but in matters concerning cryptocurrencies, it's pretty much commonplace thinking that they can get away with such carelessness.

As for OP, I don't think it's even best to think about leaving funds on a site with no assurance that they are insured to the teeth just to take 6% interest per annum. I'd assess the risks and pretty much check whether there are other places in which I can take my money for less risks and for more control rather than leaving it there and hoping for the best.

If your deposits are insured, then sure why not? If Japan's able to enforce deposit insurance on licenced exchanges, surely a Gemini-backed entity must be able to do the same, especially if they're soliciting your deposits.

2% annual interest is not worth the risk, as pointed out. If you REALLY wanted to gamble, there is a service here that lets you earn about 4% annually (compounded), crediting you daily, and funds never locked. Hint: They're in Gambling section and are one of the most read and responded to threads. They've not scammed anyone for 4? 5? years but I wouldn't store my precious savings for that kind of interest. A little here and there, sure.

It's 6% for the first 500 ether


what is that service you are talking about? I suppose there is still counter party risk? If not even more?

That's pretty much trusting around $70,000 on today's prices on a company. While 6% annual interest for that amount is definitely mouth-watering, it really isn't worth the risk in my opinion.

You do you though. If you think the 6% is worth the risk, then go for it. Just take note that while the company is probably legitimate, the funds they're holding being stolen is NOT impossible. Or they might even pull off a Quadriga. 🤷‍♂️

Nothing is worth exposing yourself to the risks of having your coins held by whatever party, not even when everything is insured.

The thing with insurances or exchanges in general settling their debt, is that these always work against you. Lets say that you have 10BTC currently worth $4000 stored there and they get hacked or lose them. If the price fell back to $1000 they will refund you your Bitcoins. If the price went up to $20,000 they will refund you the $4000 they were worth per coin.

Sure, you can say it's still better than nothing, but this better than nothing simply isn't worth the risk. This isn't even taking into consideration the hassle and the stress involving this whole process. Smart people find better ways to generate income. Dumb people will go for these platforms. ::)

Still not worth it, my friend. In fact, I'm still not sure any amount of interest is worth it, and that they're actually lowering interest rates is a sign that even they can't make as much as touted.

Anything guaranteed just sits uncomfortably with me, because there's no such thing. Like I said, though, if deposits were insured, like they would be in a bank account, that's a different story. That's what you should find out (and I'm more than certain they don't).

The service I'm talking about is freebitco.in. Probably the oldest faucet around? That's the same risk I'd say, putting your money and hoping they never run away. They've never scammed, but past performance isn't a guarantee of future, right?

+1 this one. For me the service which offers withdraw anytime is better than that one, in any way deposit is still risk becausr unlike banks you have zero guarantee they won't go scam. But personally I would risk if I plan to hold my bitcoins and get rid of manual trading, but still, price is a little bit easier to predict now to my mind, you would gain that interest with some trade pretty soon.

I personally wouldn't take the risk of this.

You simply don't know whether or not they are running a fractional reserve at a particular point in time. Also, there may be KYC/AML concerns where since your bitcoins are no longer in your exclusive control, they could hold up your funds citing the need for further verification, or suspending your account because suspicious activity. These things may seem unlikely now, but once you deposit your BTC with any central entity, you're faced with them.

Apart from their affiliation with Gemini, this is not even a particularly new idea as I've mentioned before. Previously, there were services such as Magnr if I remember correctly offering pretty much the same thing, and the reason why they didn't pick up was exactly because of the high risk, low reward situation that investors are put in.

You may be better off offering collateralised loans on the forum (You'll get 0.05-0.1% per day on loans at the very least, although obviously you'll need to find clients), or lending on exchanges, if you were comfortable with taking this counterparty risk with blockfi.

i personally don't trust any third party services that 'control' my money even for a little while. i don't really care how legitimate they are but not being able to control that much money is big no for me. if you want to earn interest, maybe running lending services in this forum is an alternative, unless you want something simple.

It's hard to actually get things working on this forum as newbie that wants to put its coins to work. There are quite some reputable members here offering super low interest loans already.

Competing with these members by offering even lower interest rates isn't appealing enough to satisfy people. People need to understand that some times you shouldn't try to invest your coins, but invest time in yourself.

There will be a time where your local bank will pay interest over the coins they hold on your behalf. People may not like banks, but they are more trustworthy than all crypto services combined in that aspect.

This is one big truth, cryptocurrency non-regulation is still enables various companies and individuals to fish in murky waters. I do not think it's time yet, and perhaps will never be to trust anyone when it comes to cryptocurrency in such a way that they are entrusted with our private keys. In fact in this way people undermines one of the basic idea which stands behind cryptocurrency, to be your own bank and to have full control over your coins.

Really depends whether you think the risk-to-reward ratio for this is worth it. Gemini holding the coins is definitely a big plus, but there's still at least some level of risk that the coins could be stolen; if you do choose to invest into this platform, do not invest more than you can afford to lose.

Lending on these forums can be very difficult if you don't have an older account or good trust feedback, but if you've got the time for it, lending with collateral can be very lucrative. Trading can also be profitable if you've got the time and patience to learn about it and practice, though it's not something you can instantly pick up and start earning on day one. You can even make money selling crypto for fiat and buying back into crypto through the Currency Exchange section- there's an uncountable number of ways to make money on this forum. You just have to find them.

I don't think coins being lost or stolen is the problem. It's them over extending their liabilities. They may start off with a minor flirtation at fractional reserve, get cocky and blow it completely. You can still have all the coins and finish up owing far, far more.

What goes in and what comes out has the potential to become very screwy very quickly.

And most people do forget such thing, thats why they're here on crypto because of the reason to be you own bank.If they do always prefer on trusting up these kind
of platforms then better to stick on traditional banks which i do completely agree that they are more trustworthy compared to this one.

You compare regulated service with established team to a faucet?

I guess it's a Ponzi, how else do they want to make more than 6% p. a.? Actually there is one other possibility. They'll long BTC on say 3:1 leverage.

A wish to deposit crypto somewhere and get interest is a stupid idea by default. Cryptocurrencies are generally considered as a very risky investments. And you are trying to give your risky investment to someone else, who may not give it back. In that case you are multiplying your risks. And tbh those interests are not really big (untill you are looking on a ponzi) and not worth that risk.

What's the point of comparing these 'lower' interest rates to the insane/unrealistic ones that ponzis offer? You're basically comparing an entity trying to do it the right way to an entity that's outright trying to scam you. On top of that, the interest rates are actually still somewhat on the higher side being 6%.

The highest interest rate my bank offers for my money is 1.8% if I lock it up for 2 years, and like 0.1% over my regular savings that I can access at any time of the day. The highest ever interest rate my bank offered me was almost 5% but these good times are over unfortunately. :-\

Can you not be arsed to read?

They lend out at high rates on short terms to established traders. They're the ones who are longing or shorting and that's how they can, or could, afford to pay those rates. Unfortunately it looks like those traders would rather be paid interest than have to pay it out.

Where can I find the info about that? However I still think it's way better to e. g. make a long 3:1 leveraged bet of 0.6 than to risk 10. If BTC goes to 10k in 2 year (almost sure ;)), the result will be the same with way lower risk. In case of an extreme event like alts rally 2 Y ago, half of the traders will go bust and won't be able to pay back.

https://blockfi.com/earn-bitcoin-interest/

'BlockFi generates interest on assets held in Interest Accounts by lending them to trusted institutional and corporate borrowers. To ensure loan performance, BlockFi typically lends crypto on overcollateralized terms (similar to the structure of our crypto-backed loans). Furthermore, BlockFi’s automated risk management system monitors positions 24/7, leveraging the same trusted risk management system used with BlockFi’s crypto-backed loans.  BlockFi has the ability to terminate a borrow in a timely fashion and also manages reserve balances to facilitate client withdrawals from Interest Accounts.'

I presume they know their stuff when it comes to the people they lend to. Then again I'm sure plenty who finished up in ruins thought they did too.

Celsius network gives a better deal IMO. Moreover, the founder has a great history of disrupting various industries and now he is behind lending markets. Interest rates are low but the benefit is you can withdraw your money anytime you want, which blockfi doesn't provides...

Do not know more about it.. But its development speed up again as BlockFi Launches Flexible Interest Payments Across BTC, ETH, and Gemini USD
The news release today.. https://btcmanager.com/blockfi-flexible-interest-payments-btc-eth-gemini-usd/?q=/blockfi-flexible-interest-payments-btc-eth-gemini-usd/&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=socialpush&utm_campaign=SNAP

You can withdraw every month with interest.

Their rates for 20+ BTC are immediately slashed to 2.2%. https://blockfi.com/rates/

Celsius doesn't have compounding interest. Looking at their explanation of their interest rates, it seems extremely sketchy.

https://support.celsius.network/hc/en-us/articles/360001978877-Does-interest-compound-
This is just stupid. No investor should use them.

I can't find any info about what happens if you deposit 20+ BTC with them. I assume they slash rates as well but there's no info anywhere.

---

I have yet to use any of them as i'm not particularly keen on their business models. Probably won't.

What is the incentive to reduce interest for amounts >20btc?  Do more, smaller deposits distribute risk, or give blockFI an additional advantage somehow? 

No, it’s more likely simply due to the fact that they don’t have enough loans to cover the interests on if let’s say someone deposits 500BTC. They keep the interest high on smaller amounts probably to increase the awareness, and because they can actually generate the amount of interest on these smaller amounts with their outstanding loans.

But it’s just stupid because i’d simply let a relative/lawyer open another account if i want to go over the 20BTC mark, right?

These lending services are just weird to me.

If you need a loan, but traditional institutions won’t bring it to you; or because you don’t trust them as I do, Blockfi brings you a great opportunity to borrow money using your cryptocurrencies as collateral, while offering you a super-low interest rate.
https://cryptocrow.net/bitcoin-loans/

Anyone has any details about the location of blockfi ?
I checked their site and got this address -  ( https://blockfi.com/contact/ )

201 Montgomery Street
Second Floor, Suite 263
Jersey City, New Jersey 07302
646-779-9688

Also found that the following firms also share the same office address  as above  -
1. "New Jersey Anesthesia Professionals"   ( If you search this on google )
2. Colormatics  ( https://www.colormatics.com/#contact )
3. Data Gallery LLC ( https://www.facebook.com/pg/datagallery.io/about/ )

I am not sure how virtual companies work, and I have heard of virtual addresses for firms, but  w.r.t sharing the same address with lots of other firms, I haven't seen many cases. But given that they are backed by the Winklevoss brothers and Perter Thiel etc,  ( https://winklevosscapital.com/portfolio/ ) , having to not have a "real" office is kind of showing lack of trust ? I don't know where they operate from.

Any leads on this before I start investing my BTC with them ??

Well these companies are taking your money and 'selling' it to people who use bitcoin on margin. That's where their money is to be made here. Typically it is going to be people who are shorting bitcoin are going to use their funds.

But yes, they may not have the demand from institutional investors (and others) who are shorting bitcoin to want more then 20 per account. And yes, you could have family members open everything up to go past it but you'd have to have them KYC all their information as well.

It's stupid if you think that the company is going to go under at some point, and that you'd be losing your funds. Which honestly, could happen to a crypto company at any point because there is a risk of hacking and stealing the funds (which isn't something that is present in traditional asset groups)

Is it within your personal risk tolerance to put all your funds at risk for 4-6 percent (as it does change with market movements)? You decide.

Even if the interest rate is 7% per annum, why would anybody take that kind of risk with their money.
You are basically giving out your money to someone you don't know and hoping to get 7% more in return at the end of 1 year.
You know how good hackers are at hacking such exchanges and services right. I am sure I would never take the risk of investing my money just for a mere 7%.
I would rather hold it in my wallet and hope BTC to increase 7% more than it would normally do.

DISCLAIMER :
1. I do not have an account with them .
2. This is a longread.

Came to know from some other source that blockfi.com DONOT have a data privacy policy .
Read - https://blockfi.com/terms/ for the details .
I read through their terms and conditions - Here are some points about privacy and security that I am putting across its explanation .

1.Exact words in Terms and Conditions (T&C) -
  "The nature of cryptocurrency means that any technological difficulties experienced by BlockFi may prevent the access or use of a customer’s cryptocurrency. Any bond or trust account maintained by BlockFi for the benefit of its customers may not be sufficient to cover all losses incurred by customers."

Which means - they wont be liable to reimburse you for any loss arising from any acts of hacking/fraud ( even by the founders)  might mean that you will lose 100% of your investment. ( remember nicehash hack ? ) - well - its understandable .   Also means that you cryptocurrency is not insured and they are not liable for any reimbursement.

2. exact words in T&C -
"You agree to indemnify and hold us and our affiliates harmless from any losses, damages, suits and expenses, of whatever kind, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, which we may incur in connection with or arising out of your use of your Crypto Interest Account or our activities in connection with such account, .... "

Which means - same as above

3. Moreover, they do not handle your KYC data ( including any ID or SSN numbers etc ). They outsource it to a third party. You cannot hold blockfi liable for any loss of your data - the moment you sign the agreement. ( hackers/ acts of nature etc ). The details of the third party - I am not sure.
Note: ( If any one who knows the third party who is handling the personal documents and SSN - please let everyone know in this thread - I will spend time and do further investigation.


In a nutshell - Even though it looks like a well backed firm, for 5% interest and limited withdrawing powers to the investor, this seems a rather risky proposition.

"BlockFi engages in two activities to generate return: (1) purchasing, as principal, SEC-regulated equities and predominately CFTC- regulated futures; and (2) lending crypto assets in the institutional market. See “What are the risks with depositing my crypto at BlockFi?” for more details."

So they are also trading equities and futures to generate return.... Seems a bit risky to me relative to future expected returns, if there was an event. I wonder what % of their portfolio is tied up in #1?