Bitcoin Forum

The Meta board has really turned into a shitshow lately.  I have no interest in reading yet another rant about the Merit Mafia or the DT Gestapo.  To make things worse; it's become obvious that some members are using alt accounts (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5131251.msg50578639#msg50578639) (maybe multiple alts) to spam their personal attacks over and over again. 

I have a very practical suggestion to those who are displeased with the current system.  I'll pass on a bit of wisdom from my corporate management training courses: Stop attacking the people, and start attacking the problem; stop laying blame, and start laying the groundwork for a solution.

Many of the merit sources and DT members are well established, trusted, and accomplished members of this community.  Continuing to attack them does nothing to resolve the issues (real or perceived) with the system.  Personal attacks will only earn you more enemies, more red tags, and less credibility. 

If you feel some members are abusing their DT power or their Merit Source standing, present your evidence and allow the community to decide.  Take the personal agenda out of the equation. 

If you don't like the system, make suggestions that will improve it.  Even if you don't have any suggestions, but don't like an aspect of the system, open the dialogue approaching the issue with a goal towards a resolution.  You might be surprised at how much support you find.

There have been a couple of threads with solution oriented goals in mind, and I'll give kudos to the folks who started those threads.  We need more of this type of discourse.  Note: I've disagreed with both OPs in these cases, but none the less I find the discourse helpful.

Should we rename Trust list to Feedback list? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5130401.msg50548916#msg50548916)
This Is NOT A New Problem... A Walk Down Memory Lane (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5109647.msg49727926#msg49727926)

I doubt that the ones that are using multiple alt accounts to engage in personal attacks are looking for a real discussion, much less so for a solution.

For most of them which are doing this behavior (Mostly those that are tagged by DT for various reasons) there simply will not be any solution -- DT isn't going to be removed any time soon and neither are their trust scores.

I really doubt there's much room for sincere discussion for aforementioned, as there is not really much to discuss in most cases.

In most cases, users who try to make personal attacks or personal assasination are mostly got troubles with their shady activities, and they can not solve their issues by themselves. They don't have enough proof to prove that they are innocent.
Instead of accepting their faults and kinds of punishments as forum rules pointed out, they open personal attacks as a hope to solve issue. Unfortunately, in reality such personal assasination threads most likely result in worse situation (higher red trust, for example).

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In a summary, if someone actually did something wrong, they should clearly know that which wrong they they did, even more than staffs, or DT members. In such cases, admiting mistakes and changing with progressive attitude might help them have second chances to come back. But, second chances won't come too soon, it takes long period of time to show that they actually change.

They've done this, and the community has decided they're a bunch of crackpots--and despite getting very little support from any community members outside their little clique (and notably, no reaction from Theymos), they're not getting the message and keep rehashing the same crap over and over.

They've also done this, and most ideas presented are either complete nonsense or have too many drawbacks. 

The bottom line is this:  the trolling that's going on in Meta and Reputation is being done by only a few members who are most likely using a number of alt accounts.  I don't believe they really want to change things for the better.  I think they're just unhappy that they're not on DT, not merit sources, have no respect in the community, aren't earning merits, and they're just looking to tear down the system because it doesn't work for them.  And, as with all trolls, they seek attention--which they're getting lots of, unfortunately. 

Since all of their arguments have been heard, I think we all need to put these trolls on ignore.  Shun them completely.  If people don't respond to their posts, they'll stop making them.  That will take time, of course, but it'll happen.

A+ for the effort but yeah... what AdolfinWolf said.

This new wave of CH's "friends and family" isn't interested in solutions. I just wish we stopped responding to them and stopped red-trusting them - that just adds fuel to the fire.

Most of the times, or maybe all the time, they are the ones who abuse the system in some way, and then get caught doing that and are either banned or tagged red for doing so. They then create new accounts, head to Meta and start churning out crap out of their mouth for the system or the ones who are the reason behind the punishments they've got. Now, where the hell would they bring evidence from? To back up their arguments?

Lol, yeah maybe you and AdolfinWolf are right.  I didn't mean to come off sounding like Rodney King, but really; can't we all just get along?

If you happened to displeased with the current system in the forum let it stop with you don't pass it to others as simple as that, so that no one else will take advantage and throw their blame to the  people who do nothing but to improve this community.

because when there is one who don't agree on the current update and he will post it, some other people will try to support him and there will be a chaotic discussion about their disagreement with the current system update.

If they just know how to shut their mouth and let the admins do what they want to improve this forum, there will be no chaos at all.
so basically If you can't help to discuss important thing it is better for you to close your mouth.

I guess it’s difficult to avoid personal attacks sometimes. When you leave an account genuine red/negative trust for things like -

Attempting to manipulate DT by Distrusting genuine, trustworthy, long time members
Trying to get a loan with no collateral
Plagiarism

For those posters to then leave insulting retaliatory feedback on your trust page is a bit annoying. It’s happened to all of us on DT.

I know myself, I’ve been called a fag, ass licker & a merit whore in retaliatory feedbacks.

I usually treat negative things the same way I would treat them in real life. Don't engage negativity if you don't want it in your life. It's as simple as that.

Are people still talking about merit?  Well I guess it is an anagram of "remit" , so it will continue to be a hot topic.

I find the ignore button is best to avoid personal attacks. That way the attacker is just shouting into the wind. I think "shouting" may not be the correct word though.

Ignore button does not work with personal attacks, when attackers create topic for that. I don't say that personal attacks on prominent users of forum will destroy their trust. They are prominent, well-known users, and they have huge contributions to the forum. Consequently, they won't be destroyed easily by attackers, maybe never if they don't violate forum rules themselves, and misuse their rights as staffs, DT members, or merit sources.

Human life will never escape problems and tests.
That is man, the world, there is day and night, evil and good.
Life is full of challenges, good and bad, it all depends on how someone thinks.
Some like to look for problems and some don't want problems.
Because of that, the current problems that occur on Meta, are approaching the thoughts of all DT members, for that Admin, Mod, DT1, DT2, hopefully the current will not be carried away.

In this case I think it will not change when the person rises from emotion despite all the rules and systems formed by the Forum, everyone has a positive and negative side, but not everyone loves peace. There are some people who like to find problems with other people. The goal is to seek attention, pursue popularity, or want to bring down others, this is the world of the internet.

While I agree with you totally in theory, the problem with this strategy is by its very nature calling out the problem almost always necessitates calling out individual actions. As a result of this those individuals and their in group purposely exhibit exactly the type of behavior you describe while then calling any criticism of them and theirs as the instigators for pointing these events out, firmly placing the blame for the "shitshow" upon the complainant no matter how respectfully it is worded in an effort to derail the critical discussion. Another side effect of this is these individuals will abuse the trust system in order to punitively attack their critics either by totally embellishing circumstances or just completely manufacturing reasons for their negative ratings and exclusions.

Unfortunately this is another case of rules for thee and not for me. Some of the people who receive the most criticism are also the most willing to use personal attacks and other troll type behavior in order to push their own desired outcome then are quite vocal about this same behavior being directed toward them. Then they go around mirroring each other's position to give the impression of consensus, which usually works because no one wants to stick out their necks and risk being targeted themselves to defend the individual complainant. This is consensus management 101.

Totally agree with that.
I won't even reply to today's topic about me plagiarizing myself.  ::) That's comedy gold tho, you cannot make that up.

I appreciate everyone reply in there, but still, I think this is not to be taken too seriously.
It's just plain annoying, but that's all.

The people who are to blame are actually the ones conducting these attacks.
They waste so much time and effort into making that up. If that effort was constructive that'd be beneficial for them in the long run.

Sock puppets are good, and should be given merit when they do the dirty work of DT members. New members, or sock puppets, that speak out against trust abuse, or highlight observable lies, scamming or other dirty deeds from DT members histories are bad.

When members present evidence that demonstrate they were given red trust for simply saying they will encourage others to review a DT members post history in response to that  DT  making  many false accusations against that member, then that shows DT is dangerous and being misused. It should be the admins responsibility to remove such persons, then black list them. Given the vast amount of incriminating evidence against such persons in DT, in combination with DT using red trust to silence whistle blowers, it could well be viewed as  irresponsible , if something terrible should happen, that they could have, and should have, prevented.

The only solution to DT is to remove it, or to enforce sensible guidelines. Merit could be tweaked but will remain low value due to most people here being unable to discern a post of value from a pile of misleading horse shit. It is impossible for the systems to be seen as net positive when they leave free speech so vulnerable, whilst providing financial incentive to gag or destroy advertising/trading competitors, and defame and discredit those that present observable evidence that DT members to remain hidden.

You are advocating appealing to corrupt colluding members. They are the core components of a broken, dangerous system. This appeal process has been tested, and found to be a fruitless exercise even for the most flagrant and SELF CONFESSED trust abuse. when a DT has stated in public "yes they have red trusted persons for presenting facts about their friends untrustworthy deeds" then WHAT FUCKING MORE CAN BE SAID ABOUT THAT?? there can be no greater abuse than that.

There is no appeal process that is not a total sham, there is only making it very personal, until justice is served.

Sure we can all get along, when we are all treated equally and all held to the same standards.

I agree. Rather than complaining, it's better to suggest a solution. However, this isn't the first time it's happening and it won't be the last. Those making attacks use their alt accounts as they can't use their real one and attack the DT members. The merit system has been made to make it easy to rank up so I don't get why people have a problem with them when they are new as it's some added bonus. I don't believe all alt accounts are not in search of a solution.

^^You feel you have been wronged but rather than calling out and blaming the system, kindly provide enough evidence and let the members know the reason. Personal attacks just simply proves the other party right without even trying.

This is it. As long as these accounts keep managing to rile people up, derail threads, get responses and so forth, the behavior will continue. It is becoming increasingly difficult over the last few months to have a sensible discussion on any topic even vaguely related to merit, trust, or general forum etiquette without it being derailed. A single post or two by these accounts is actually easily ignorable - it's when people try to argue against them that the thread truly becomes a mess.

Their constant posts which simply attack individual DT members/merit sources/anyone whose trust list they disagree with/etc. are not looking to discuss ideas or search for a solution. They are simply looking for a reaction. Don't give them it. I think it was Henry Thomas Buckle who first said something along the lines of "the lowest classes talk about people; the middle classes talk about things; the highest classes talk about ideas".

Notice everyone here is blaming these people rather than wondering what gave them the motivation to respond like this to begin with... same shit as always, "they must be a scammer/troll/ban evader". The reason this shit is happening because everyone pretends like there aren't issues because it is not a problem for you personally. Clearly there are problems.

Exactly, thats the point of this thread, we all know there are some few flaws (there has to be, for more improvement to happen) now instead of them attacking the system (that yeilds no results) they should provide alternative solutions that'll make the system better although requesting for a totally removal of the system isn't an option as that'll only destroy the forum the more. I mean just imagine a trust system without DT or the forum without trust system, merit system without merit sources or forum without merit system. Removing this systems aren't an option.

I don't think anyone in this thread is claiming there are no problems and everything is peachy. All I'm saying is that when every thread opened to discuss possible changes or solutions is derailed by the same few accounts calling users names, attacking individuals, pushing their personal vendettas, etc., then they are hindering rather than helping to make progress.

Stop attacking individuals and start discussing ideas.

I have witnessed members specifically list in their local rules that the discussions in their threads should remain hypothetical, and no member is permitted to make things personal.
The same people in this very thread, complaining about personal attacks and vendettas, were the ones or closely affiliated with those immediately launching into personal attacks.
Meta board is one long troll.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5128027.0

even mods

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5123752.0

Look at the local rules in the first thread you have linked to. To single out everyone who has disagreed with you in the past and forbid them from posting in your thread, and then expect your thread to contain a meaningful dialogue or reach a relevant conclusion is a ridiculous premise. The whole point of a discussion is to hear opposing view points, and solutions will never be reached by living in an echo chamber. Everyone is well within their right to start a thread with such local rules if they like, but holding it up as an example of someone trying to find solutions is disingenuous at best.

You are incorrect. The initial poster had explained during that thread that they had tried before stating the persons must not make it personal or they must bring evidence to support their opinions. I have checked this as you can check on their previous threads. The continued ignoring their of their requests then they  likely had no other choice but to prevent them from derailing and making it personal. I found their previous local rules to be very reasonable, in that anyone could post as long as they substantiated their claims and opinions with evidence of or a compelling case based on observable events.

I very much doubt eliminating 10 persons from the entire forum means they are creating an echo chamber.

Let's examine the second thread you linked then:


Please see OP's following posts in that thread. I have provided a few choice snippets below:


To say there is a local rule to not "make it personal" and that this rule applies to everyone, and then to make it completely personal with attacks such as "sneaky greedy racist troll" whilst simultaneously complaining that other people aren't following the rule which you just broke, is just as disingenuous as the example in my previous post. These aren't even ad hominem attacks, they are just straight up insults.

To go back to the point of this thread, no constructive discussion will ever be had and no solution will ever be reached if this sort abusive behavior continues.

We are on topic. No need to try and escape a full debate.

Are you claiming then that example does not demonstrate clearly what I stated it does?

You are trying to be sneaky AGAIN.

We can observe in the full context of that thread that the initial poster is attacked 3 x with FALSE allegations or Groundless ATTACKS before they respond with FACTUAL accounts of previous behaviors they have in their post histories.




So let's stay on topic here and establish you can not even be honest in your own thread about finding impartial and objective solutions.

Abusive behavior to o_e_l_e_o is telling the truth it seems.

So to remain on topic. Yes, there should not be any personal attacks (except where vital background information is required for optimal analysis by impartial readers. compelling evidence should be present), but since those calling for an end to the personal attacks, are the same ones attacking peoples trust scores, and their threads when they feel like it (with 0 evidence) then I am not that hopeful.

This is exactly what I am talking about, and exactly what this entire thread is all about. You are using insults and fake quotes to attack me instead of addressing the points I have made.

If you can't even follow your own local rules, then you have no right to complain when others don't either. Similarly, if you go around constantly insulting people and derailing other people's threads, then complaining about the same behavior when it happens to you is unlikely to be taken seriously.

I've never seen two persons use a form of "observe" so frequently, and in such an unnatural manner... Coincidence?   ::)

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Any reason why you're not just posting from your main account?

This observably demonstrates, that you are unnaturally slow. I have been trying my "uttermost" to continue the true legends work, in his true image. Thank you for the late recognition. Please let me know, if I make any posts that are not instantly recognizable as cryptohunter's style. When, and if, I notice him posting again. Then I will continue only with his explicit permission.. What;s with all the wolf people, and cat enthusiasts in meta? I am making an concerted effort, to address you all with the titles true legend cryptohunter bestowed upon you. I see no title for you. Sorry if I have missed that somewhere.


You are misrepresenting what happened on the thread. So no, those are not insults. They are statements of important truth. You are taking it out of context, you are misleading people. There are 2 options. You are stupid and do not realize what you are doing. Or you are being sneaky. Can you suggest a 3rd option?

Calling a liar a liar is not an insult when they are lying. That is telling an important truth. Saying someone is misleading others if they are misleading them, is not an insult it is an important piece of information.

My point stands. The very people complaining about personal attacks are those attacking others trust scores and their threads FIRST. Often with false accusations and groundless insults, that fall apart under examination. I guess politeness and insults are different things again, that is a different debate.
Personal attacks should be avoided, by all parties, if possible. However, imagine being at a party, and 4 different guys are offering a drunk girl a lift home. You know 1 has been convicted of rape and murder previously. At times a conversation or debate may require certain past events to be mentioned for the optimal solution. Eventually after listening to the convicted rapist and murderer explain he lives closer, it is less out of his way, and he has a faster car. Then you may need to mention something off topic and irrelevant like : but didn't you rape and murder the last girl you gave a lift home from a party? I know it is insulting and spoils the mood, but if you want the optimal solution or outcome; then at times, factual historical events must be mentioned and presented for consideration. I know it is a personal attack, but if you have evidence and it is important, then in those cases it can be warranted. You must present a compelling case with evidence and a strong connection ensuring the optimal outcome.