Bitcoin Forum

Can hardware wallets like Ledger Nano be hacked and their coins stolen?

One thing I learned in our modern, high-tech, interconnected and crypto-loving world is that anything can be possible with hackers who are genius and always two steps ahead of the game. Remember that story where hackers were able to destroy a nuclear facility of Iran...it was done cleverly using a virus just sleeping and hiding in a USB and the rest is history. Simple and effective. Hackers know that if there is a will there is a way. Let me share this very important article about the same subject:

https://www.chepicap.com/en/news/6222/trezor-one-ledger-nano-s-and-blue-get-hacked-ledger-denies-trezor-will-update-.html

This was last year and we know that hackers are always innovating to find ways to get into any platform or device as long they will connect online. The bottom line here is that we should always be careful and we should demand that our product/service providers should not be complacent in terms of security and protection.

Hackable, yes, but it comes with an asterisk:


To put things into the simplest terms, hardware wallets have never been hacked remotely (assuming no attacker ever got their hands on it in transit) due to the way they were designed. Things could easily change in the future, but they're currently the best we have in terms of security and ease of use. Other cold wallets are still more recommended for long term storage.

As long as you don't expose the pass phrase a hardware wallet cannot be hacked. At least none has been yet hacked by an online attack.

There will always be theoretical vulnerabilities. One vulnerability in practice is when fake ones are sold to unsuspecting buyers giving the makers of the fake hardware wallet access to the user's private keys. In practice, it's very difficult to have your coins stolen with such a wallet.

if someone finds our nano ledger and have some program maybe but i dont think so , atleast it cant be hacked from the internet since its not hooked up to the internet. to be honest i dont think its even possible to hack it offline.

as far as hacking goes, anything can be hacked because there is no 100% secure wallet out there that can protect you without having any bugs or exploits. as for hardware wallets, they are secure and the chances of them being hacked are minimal, not to mention that the hacker has to have physical access to your hardware device which shouldn't happen in first place.

in any case when it comes to security you sometimes should worry more about the 5 dollar wrench attack (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Storing_bitcoins#The_5_dollar_wrench_attack).

It couldn't get hacked online or through the internet unless hacker would have it physically and operates it.
It's the advantage of using nano ledger, it's safer and hard to get hacked because you're in control of it.
I have stored my holdings in a nano ledger and keeping it in a safer place.

An interesting article how ever it is said that in the article that it could only happen if "however, that this only works if the user didn’t set a passphrase." .
And Nano Ledger isn't affected by it and I think it is really going to be hard to hack a hardware wallet and almost impossible.
If it comes from a legit seller not from just a random seller that could do something on the wallet before you get it.

As long as you secure you pass phrase and make sure not to leave it plugged-in and active in your computer all the time, your funds in your hardware wallet will be safe.

It's possible to get your coins stolen from a hardware wallet but it's unlikely to get hacked if you know how to secure your wallet.
This user from reddit made a thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/7ofrqf/warning_brutal_scam_guy_buys_a_ledger_nano_wallet/) on how he lost his coins after buying a wallet from a reseller. They got in to his wallet through the seeds because he didn't create his own instead he used the words given by the reseller

maybe when the hardware wallet is connected to the computer, now I see if the hardware wallet has never heard of being hacked and it is one of the safest wallets today compared to online wallets

Read everything about the hacking exploit of this kid, Saleem Rashid

His official blog: https://saleemrashid.com/

[1]Breaking the Ledger Security Model (https://saleemrashid.com/2018/03/20/breaking-ledger-security-model/)

absolutely nothing that can't possibly be hacked we have to know how to secure, we have to know that only we who hold private keys we must be careful in every transaction

Everything is possible, but it most depends how you are using hardware wallet. Most popular wallets like Ledger Nano S and Trezor are really secure, but if you're not following security tips, your coins are in danger.
Less known wallets can be more dangerous. For example BitFi wallet - they claimed that this wallet is unhackable, but this wallet was hacked only few days later after these words were said.

In theory, it's possible everything including a hardware wallet can be hacked, but a hardware wallet is one of the safest ways to hold your coins. I  have a hardware wallet, I don't fear it will be hacked, but I do worry about people somehow will find the seed words I have written down, and steal my coins that way.

i read from twitter that the hacker needs to have the physical access to the wallet to be able to spend the funds?
https://twitter.com/Trezor/status/1078625433694937088

Yes, it can be hacked if you are not responsible to keep your private key and password, everything of the gadgets uses has to engage online and having an internet connection then you are prone in hacking. Having a clean PC will help you to avoid the phishing site.  For example that may lead you from hacking example malware virus which is entire

That’s why its advisable to reboot your new hardware wallet and generate new phrases to make sure you’re on a safe place. Yes, its safe as long as you keep it private and put the keys into your treasure box. I’ll soon experience to use a hardwallet and I’m confident that it will be a safe wallet for me. Go buy to the real seller and have your piece of mind with that Ledger.

It is not only in theory but it is real and can really happen, mate. A little fear sometimes is needed to make us be more alert and careful in saving it correctly. Nowadays, hackers become smarter. They always find new ways to steal crypto user assets. So, get to know everything that may be an interstice for them to steal your coins.  ;)

all systems still have loopholes to be hacked including hardware wallets, but hardware wallets have a smaller hacking potential than wallet software

Actually back in the past these hardware wallet have some kind of holes that's leaked around but fortunately this problem can be sorted out by the company, mainly it's a hardware problem that can cause such serious cases however it's still a fact that a hardware wallet is a lot more harder and need so much resources to be hacked than desktop or even browser wallet like metamask.

The 2 factor authentication that was built in to the hardware wallet is enough giving the hacker a hard time not to mention the encryption, unlike for example MEW that can got the DNS easily hijacked in the past.

There have been vulnerabilities disclosed in both of the "big 2" hardware wallets

XKCD summed it up best however:

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security.png

-Dave

Ledger nano and other hardware wallet is by far the most secured and trusted one to store our coins in,as long as you keep your pass phrase with you you are safe.Other than that if someone sold you a fake ledger or a legit ledger with malware that stoles infos youre done and hacked.

as long as you keep your passphrase or private keys or which ever you use safe, and you don't leave it to access the internet by leaving it plugged in your computer all the time, I don't think it's possible to hack

The hack of Etherdelta from a few years ago was a good test for hardware wallets. I think it was back in 2017 when the DNS servers of the site were replaced and many users who logged in to the fake site got their ETH accounts emptied and tokens stolen. Even users using MetaMask reported that they got their accounts emptied. But those who logged in to the fake site with a hardware wallet were not affected because the hacker would still need physical access to the hardware devices!

Yes, you can hack a trezor and extract all 24 words

Do you care to elaborate on that maybe? Where did you read or hear about Trezor wallets getting hacked and seed words being extracted?

I did read an article a while ago published by Kaspersky it is possible to gain access to the seed using a hacking technique called voltage glitching. More about that here:
Source: https://www.kaspersky.com/blog/hardware-wallets-hacked/25315/


https://media.kasperskydaily.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/92/2019/01/10073034/hardware-wallets-hacked-trezor-pwned.jpg

You can hack a Trezor using side channel attack, there are various tools for this, one is Chipwhisperer manufactured in Canada. Their CEO even demonstrated the hack in a video in Las Vegas in August this year.

As long as the funds are secured by a long enough passphrase (>30 characters should be good enough), they are still safe on a Trezor.

I like you malevolent I really do. Your posts are usually insightful and intelligent.

This one...um....30+ character passphrase? It's hard enough getting people to use more then a 5 or 6 digit pin. You want then to use a full 30+ character saying or group of words?

-Dave

It's an unrealistic expectation, but it is technically correct.

You can read the report from Ledger where they reported on this attack here: https://ledger-donjon.github.io/Unfixable-Key-Extraction-Attack-on-Trezor/

Near the bottom there is a paragraph entitled "Mitigation" where they explain their reasoning. If the seed can be extracted, then the entire security of the wallet rests on the passphrase. They suggest a passphrase of 37 random characters (not a phrase or series of words) is necessary to reach the same level of security as a 24 word mnemonic phrase would on its own.

I love my ColdCard more each day.
I guess I just don't get why at this point it's even worth getting a Trezor. I can use just about any wallet with a 37 character passphrase and it will be just as secure.
The entire part of hardware wallets was that even if you lost it it was still secure.

I guess I am missing something.

-Dave

I'm not saying it would be convenient, certainly not for day to day use (but then most people aren't transacting in huge amounts day to day so they might as well keep two trezors, one without a passphrase, another with a secure passphrase they'd use only occasionally), I just said that in case someone thought no funds are safe on a Trezor, and that's with several assumptions: the attacker gains physical access to the device, the attacker has a lot of resources (i.e. willing to design and produce ASICs just to get to the coins) and the user wants security comparable to a 24 word passphrase from a set of 2048 words. And yeah, it'd actually have to be 37 randomly chosen characters.

In reality 5 randomly chosen words from a 300k word dictionary (e.g. Webster's) would still be more than enough and more user friendly. It'd also be a slightly stronger passphrase than one from randomly choosing 7 words from a set of 7776 words (long diceware word list).

Just be careful in assuming that your ColdCard is completely safe. Just because an attack like this has only been demonstrated on a Trezor, doesn't mean a similar one (or indeed, a completely different attack) is not possible on a ColdCard, a Ledger, or any other hardware wallet.

I don't own a Trezor, but provided you realize that someone has physical access to it, and you have your seed backed up properly, then you should still have ample time (provided any reasonable length of passphrase) to sweep your funds to a new wallet.

Secure enough. With enough time and access to a lab with electron microscope (or money to rent such a thing), your seed is probably extractable from any hardware device. The hardware wallet buys you enough time to retrieve your mnemonic phrase and sweep your funds to new wallet.

So more or less it comes down to you can just as easily have a BIP38 encrypted paper wallet with your coins on it. Because either way if it's a weak passphrase you're going to loose your BTC.

Sorry to be a downer, but it just gets to me that this is out there and yet they are still selling them and people think they are safe just using an 8 digit pin.
This should be a big red alert about this.

-Dave

Not necessarily. For hardware wallets, the attacker still needs to extract the seed. On Trezor devices we now know that can be done for less than $100 with fairly basic components. As far as we know, other devices still require high tech equipment and the expertise to use it. Very few people have the access and skills required, and hiring such a lab would cost several thousand dollars at a minimum. It's simply not a concern for your average crypto user, but is a concern for people holding large sums of money who are being specifically targeted by criminals.

Nothing is 100% safe, and if you have access to additional options (such as passphrases) which increase your security, then I would always opt to use them.

Well, it would be quite unique to have a multi-sig with one trezor, one ledger and letsay a bitcoin core wallet, then a two word phrase is enough as long as the attacker does not know which one is which.

There are even cooler methods but should not be disclosed as of yet...

It's not easy to hack a hardware wallet, unless of course you give your keys to someone.

If someone gains physical access to your hardware wallet, I also wouldn't be so sure... at least set up a reasonably long/complex passphrase if you're using Trezor for bigger amounts of money and are taking it into account that someone could gain physical access to it.

You think?  I'd hate to live in a world where a hardware wallet could be hacked remotely, as in if it's sitting in my safe not connected to any device.  Hopefully that will never become possible, but the pessimist in me kinda sorta believes that it could happen.

My pea-brain understanding of hardware wallets is that the device itself is needed to sign transactions and that's it.  All the coins are stored within the seed phrase--but of course if someone gets their hands on that, they'd have the ability to do anything they wanted with them.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not a tech guy by any means.

The most important thing I've learned with my Ledger is to keep that seed phrase safe.  I could flush that beautiful Ledger down the toilet, but I'd still have access to my coins as long as I had the phrase.  But the problem is that the thing on which the seed phrase is written down is subject to everything else that can be stolen or destroyed--theft, fire, whatever.  That's the only way I can think of that a hardware wallet can be "hacked" short of a keylogger or some sort of malware in the mix.

There is (currently) no conceivable way that could happen without someone being able to open your safe and physically get their hands on your device. But having said that...:

I wouldn't say the coins are stored within the seed phrase. Coins are stored on the blockchain.* The hardware wallet simply stores your private keys, which give you permission to make transactions with the associated coins. The seed phrase is a more human-readable encoding of your seed number, which is a 256 bit number (256 zeros and ones). All your private keys can be derived from your seed number, which is why it acts as back up access to all of your coins.

---

*Actually, the blockchain stores transaction data. "Coins" are an abstract concept and not actual "things" which need to be stored, but this doesn't change how we think about how hardware wallets work.

In this link, you will find the 35C3 presentation that discusses and demonstrates how popular hardware wallets can be hacked - https://wallet.fail/

However, do note that physical access to the hardware wallet is necessary for such an attack to even take place. Some hardware wallets ensure that a physical attack will erase all the data contained within it. Hardware wallet makers ensure that they provide secure solutions to every form of attack, such as authentication to assure you that the device you receive has not been compromised on the supply chain or hidden wallets to circumvent a $5 wrench attack. Air-gapped hardware wallets that use QR codes for transactions are also available. Hardware wallets like ColdCard, Ledger, Cobo Vault use a secure element that ensures that your private key never leaves your hardware wallet, even if your phone or software is compromised.

Hardware wallets are not 100% immune to hacks especially when it involves instances where someone else manages to get their hands on your seed phrase because you failed to store it somewhere safe.

I would not call hacking if someone is not careful enough in handling their backup, it would be pure negligence used by someone to simply gain access to another person's private keys. It is the same with fake hardware wallets sites that are trying to trick inexperienced users into entering their seed online, or if a user is sharing his seed with someone else (we see such example on this forum), and another person is just clean all accounts.

To hack hardware wallet hacker actually need physical access, which in most cases is an impossible mission. What would be far more dangerous is a remote attack, but it would have to somehow exploit the vulnerabilities of the user interface and the hardware wallet itself, possibly combined with some vulnerability of the operating system.

I'm not going to say it's impossible, but pulling a seed out of a hardware wallet with a remote attack sounds like science fiction at the moment.

I'd tend to agree. There is no wallet in the world which can be 100% safe from user error. You can have your bitcoins stored in a wallet generated by flipping a coin on an airgapped machine inside a faraday cage inside a safe inside a nuclear bunker. None of that matters if you are going to type your seed phrase in to some random website promising to airdrop you some useless token. Suggesting this is a flaw specifically of hardware wallets, rather than all wallets, is inaccurate at best.

It's worth pointing out that no wallet is 100% immune to being hacked. Every wallet has its own unique vulnerabilities, and the best way to be safe is to learn about and appreciate the different vulnerabilities and take steps to mitigate them.

So someone can't brute force it using software?  Im very surprised by this since ppl said there is like how many words again that is used?