Bitcoin Forum

... fake market instrument

Video version of the argument: https://youtu.be/aZzH1Js2l4k

The easiest way to detect if paper or digital currency is real money or fake money is to check whether it can perform the primary function of money, which is to serve as an auxiliary means for exchanging goods and services. Real money is capable of performing this function while fake money is not.

Suppose that a guy hacks into his bank and put additional digits into his account. Then he uses his debit card to buy goods and services with these digits. Suppose that he also used money counterfeit machine to print dollar bills that he then spent in the market. What is obvious in both of these cases  is that this digits and bills were not created to serve as an auxiliary means for exchanging goods and services. Instead they were created to serve as fraudulent means for extracting goods and services from the market participants. For that reason they do not perform the primary function of money and as such they are fake money.

Now let's check what happens when bills and digits are created in the banking system. Suppose that Federal Reserve printed new dollar bills and lent them to a commercial bank which further lent them to some borrower. Also suppose that the commercial bank created dollar digits and lent them to the same borrower by putting them into his bank account. Finally the borrower uses these bills and digits to buy some goods and services in the market. What is immediately obvious here is that this borrower got these goods and services from market participants in the same way as the guy that created fake dollar digits and bills. But there's one huge difference here. Unlike that guy the borrower will return goods and services back to the market participants. Namely, given that the borrower has the obligation to repay his loan, he needs back those dollar digits and bills that he previously put into circulation. The most common way to get them is employment. As an employee he produces goods or services. Those are then traded on the market for dollar digits or bills which are then used for his salary. Finally his salary is used for loan payments. The process just described will continue until he completely pays off his loan. So although the borrower contributed to the pool of goods and services with his employment he cannot access this pool because his salary went for loan payments. Instead to borrower the access to the pool was granted to the market participants that had dollar digits and bills. And that's how the borrower returns goods or services back to the market participants. In other words unlike the guy that created fake money, the borrower did not use digits and bills for extracting goods and services from the market participants. Instead, he used them as an auxiliary means for exchanging goods and services with these participants. For that reason, bills and digits that are created in the banking system perform the primary function of money and as such they are real money.

The money in the form of gold certificates works in a similar way. It is just that party that puts them into circulation must first deposit the goods in the form of gold at some depository. The depository then issues the certificate which is traded on the market for goods or services. Then the current holder of this certificate can take it to the depository in order to claim the deposited gold. Once the holder receives the gold the exchange process between him and the gold depositor is finished. As we can see, the gold certificates are also used as an auxiliary means for exchanging goods and services. For that reason they are also real money.

Now that we have learned how real money operates we can finally turn our attention to Bitcoin. In the bitcoin system a group of people known as miners is the one that puts bitcoin into circulation. They do that by purchasing goods services or real money from the market participants, who in turn recieve digits to their virtual addresses. Now is the role of bitcoin miners similar to the role of borrowers and gold depositors? Or is it similar to the role of the guy that put fake digits and bills into circulation? In other words, do miners have the obligation to take Bitcoin out of circulation and in that way return goods and services to bitcoin holders. Further did they have the obligation to deposit some commodity prior to putting bitcoins into circulation so that bitcoin holders can claim it if they want to? Or, are these miners free of any such obligation. Well the answer is obvious. Just like the guy that created fake digits and bills, once miners extracted goods services and real money from the market participants they are free of any obligation and they can disappear without a trace.

This is indisputable proof that bitcoin is fake money. It doesn't  serve as an auxiliary  means by which bitcoin miners and market participants exchange goods and services. Instead, it serves as fraudulent means by which miners extract goods services and real money from the market participants.

Besides being fake money bitcoin is also fake market instrument. This is because it is impossible to evaluate its market price. If something is real market instrument one can easily determine whether its market price is cheap or expensive. Let's check a couple of examples.

If a bond with a face value of $1,000 a coupon rate of 5% and maturity in 5 years is priced at $500 we immediately know it is cheap. If priced at $5,000 we know it is expensive.

If a bread roll is priced the same as pizza we immediately know it is expensive because the utility that is need-satisfying power  of a bread roll is lower than that of a pizza.

If a guy was granted a loan in the amount of 50,000 units of money and used his small house as collateral but then he asks a big luxury house in exchange for these 50,000 units we immediately know this is expensive. This is because although money created in the banking system gives the entitlement to goods and services of borrowers, as we explained at the beginning of this video, this entitlement is approximately equivalent to the size of their collaterals. In our case the collateral is a small house. So given that the utility of a small house is lower than the utility of big luxury house we know that exchanging such house for 50,000 units of money is expensive. If someone would offer him a bicycle for this 50,000 units we would immediately know this is cheap. This is because he must produce the goods or services in the value equivalent of his collateral in order to get money for loan payments. And obviously his house has higher utility value than a bicycle.

And finally, if the book value of a company per share is $100 and the company has small positive earnings we immediately know that if it is priced at $500 it is expensive. If priced at $10 we know it is cheap.

So in all mentioned examples we have used the utility or entitlement behind market instruments to determine whether their market price is cheap or expensive. To put it differently, when we exchange real market instruments we can easily compare what utility or entitlement we recieve as buyers and what utility or entitlement we give-up as sellers.

In the case of bitcoin this is impossible because there is neither utility nor entitlement behind bitcoin. In other words, unlike a bread roll or a pizza you cannot use bitcoin for satisfying human needs to be able to compare utilities. Unlike money created in the banking system bitcoin doesn't give you the entitlement to someone's goods and services. Unlike bonds bitcoin doesn't give you the entitlement to periodic payments and return of initial investment after some fixed period of time. Unlike stocks bitcoin doesn't give you the entitlement to profit of some company or share in its liquidation balance.

So essentially, there is neither utility nor entitlement behind bitcoin. That's why when you decide to buy Bitcoin, that is, a number, there is nothing to put into comparison with the thing you give-up, and it is impossible to evaluate whether the market price of bitcoin is cheap or expensive.

With that said we can easily see where the crux of bitcoin fakeness lies. When you buy real market instrument you become the holder of some utility or entitlement and then some number is inserted into a database in order to express the quantity or size of received utility or entitlement. However when you buy bitcoin only number is inserted into database. That's all. And this number expresses nothing but itself.

So bitcoin is just a worthless number in a database that was smartly disguised as a real money and market instrument in order to lure the public to purchase it. And this is basically how investment scams operate. Every investment scam uses some worthless item that is disguised as something valuable to attract investors. In our case this item was a number in a database. The Bitcoin scheme is therefore a classical investment scam. Now this scam is used-up due to the enormous mining costs. We can say that current miners are also its victims. But this was to be expected given that investment scams are intended to benefit its designers not the general public. In the case of bitcoin its designers are its initial miners. They mined large amounts of bitcoins at almost no cost. Then they spread the false story of bitcoin being real money and market instrument to lure the public into transferring their valuable possessions into their hands. And they were successful. Very very successful.

Tether matches your description better than Bitcoin.

So the solution is easy. Just make Bitcoin certificates and use that as money. Problem solved ;)

On a more serious note, anyone can establish a rather arbitrary definition of A and then claim that B is not A because B does not fit that arbitrary definition. But there's no knowledge to be gained from that line of argumentation.

Everything is fake, its all a just a faith based system.  It just matters that the person your exchanging goods or services with accepts what you are offering.

It is really just manipulation by others, even bitcoin is controlled heavily by the whales and miners but it is the best decentralized system we have so far.

I want to continue on the same line!! Bitcoin will never match the definition and usability of a real-world fiat currency so it makes no sense to compare bitcoin with them!

Without going theough all these high level fundamentals of the currency system, I can say, bitcoin is an absolutely new type of money for the evolved need of the consumers! Comparing bitcoin with fiat currency is a bad idea!

Both fiat and bitcoin are different in nature and accessibility. While fiat has been around for ages and people used it as an exchange for goods and services, bitcoin also acts on a similar manner, but is exclusively confined in the internet. That alone restricts its usage and puts an inevitable limitation as to its usage to individuals. In other words, only some people can have access in getting and using bitcoin as a means of exchange compared to fiat.

Currently, this may be the case but once the world changes and adapts, we might see cryptocurrencies being the main currency in the very far future.

By your own definitions, I would describe Bitcoin as commodity money. It is a highly divisible good that people wish to purchase either with their fiat or in barter for physical goods. I don't disagree with most of what you've said, but consider the role of a Bitcoin miner more carefully. Their job is not to print Bitcoins or bring them into circulation, its to secure the Bitcoin network. The block reward is a subsidy designed to incentive miners until its worth working solely for transaction fees. The miners are performing a service and those that are taking advantage of this service are in turn paying a transaction fee.

Bitcoin can be fake if there is no use to it and for over 10 years now this cryptocurrency has had shown all the best and the worst parts of it...maybe at this part of its journey it is already too late to argue that it can be fake as this has been settled long time ago. How many times has Bitcoin been declared as dead? And how many times it has risen from the ashes just like the legendary Phoenix? This alone should be telling us why Bitcoin is not and will not be fake. Bitcoin is an opportunity to take something into our very hands though of course it is not perfect but nothing is.

Your line of thinking is some kinda wrong because you are basing your whole argument on the premise that money is real! Well, it's not, at least the USD which you allude to by referencing the Federal Reserve is not...

Yes, it's true, BTC is not backed by anything other than the faith placed squarely on it by the fools who buy it and the faith exercised by the even greater fools who buy it from those lesser fools. Yes BTC might as well be just numbers in cyberspace, a mirage. All this is true.

What is also true but less palatable to comprehend is that the U.S. dollars that are issued by the Fed that you made reference to are likewise an illusion. They too consist mainly of numbers that are also just domicile in the cyberspace. Sometimes they’re stored in paper or coins, but while the paper and coins are material, the dollars they represent are not. U.S. dollars are not backed by anything other than the faith of the fools who accept it as payment and of other fools who agree in turn to accept it as payment from them.

The main difference between BTC and the USD is that, for the moment at least, the illusion, in the case of dollars, is more widely, more fiercely believed and I might add vehemently defended by the same fools who accept it as payment and the greater fools who agree in turn to accept it as payment.

Bitcoin is not money but can be used as money.

As it is not money, so it can't be fake money.

bitcoin is not a commodity
  - a commodity is a raw material used to create other materials or products. EG gold->jewellery. wheat->bread

bitcoin is not money
  - money is a form of currency offered,controlled, regulated by a countries government

howver currency is anything people deam of value that can be transfered to different owners by their desire to swap for other things of value

bitcoin is an asset currency. and there is nothing wrong with being such.
'money' failed communities, its creation and utility is based on making people get in debt for the money to grow

do not think of bitcoin as a commodity due to the 'bitcoin is like digital gold' phrase, as that phrase is not describing golds commodity features but golds asset features. yes gold sits on 2 markets. so dont get confused

as for those saying that bitcoins value is faith, emotion based. well no. thats the speculative PRICE. not value. bitcoins value is actually its cost of its acquisition.
if it costs a miner $9k to mine 1btc they will not want to sell it for less.
if it costs a buyer $9k to buy 1btc they are not going to want to sell for less

..
money 100 years ago used to be based on the value of the cost of gold. now its based losely on the countrys minimum wage
EG $10 can be seen as an hours labour for most average american states. yet some value $10 less or more

Man, you start by saying how simple it is to prove your argument, and then you go down a rather convoluted path, and arrive at that of anonymous miners?

I'll start (and end) at your finale: miners are not similar to borrowers and gold depositors. If the aspect of block rewards has confused you, return in a few years when that reward is negligible. This "miner" term has really confused a lot of people. They're there chiefly to secure the network, verify and validate txs. Let's not forget.

You people have offered various responses here, but all of them miss the point: not only that bitcoin is not money since it cannot perform the primary function of money, but bitcoin operates as a classical investment fraud. Namely, all frauds use some intrinsically worthless item in order to lure people into transferring their goods, services or real money into the hands of fraudsters. Fake dollars in my analogy is one such item. Promise of big returns is another. Fake money in the form of blockchain entries is another. Fake dollars are not valuable because the guy invested a lot of funds into money counterfeit machine. In the same way blockchain entries are not valuable because a miner invested a lot of electricity to generate them. Current miners are also the victims of bitcoin fraudsters — the designers and initial bitcoin miners. These miners got large amounts of bitcoins at no cost. Meaning, they created an intrinsically worthless item and then spread the false story of it being money, with the intention of luring people into transferring goods, services or real money into their hands. Hence, no matter what semantical tricks you use in order to place bitcoin into some legitimate investment category, the only important thing here is that bitcoin operates as a classical investment fraud. Specifically it operates the same way as a classical money counterfeiting. It is just that money and counterfeit machine are not physical but virtual.

Fiat where one time fake until  they were legalized by the government as a means of payment,  you can make money out of anything as long as it has a legal backing, same applies to btc, once legalized, it becomes currency to transact with, only that the government are yet to do what is right 8)

I am not sure which country you are from, but lets say the function of money depends upon which fiat currency you are holding, if you own dollar and if you are travelling to another continent you need to convert the currency in order to use it and that is the case with bitcoin as you have the freedom to sell in any local exchange and then convert to your local currency. So if you think that the primary function of money is to perform the basic function of trade bitcoin is more than capable of doing that :P.

I agree with you it all comes down to our own perspective,
Other might call it fake or whatever but it all depends on us.
And even if some says that it is a fake money then it is one of the most expensive fake money that I've known so far.
And it is capable of being used just like a regular currency so for me it is not a fake but rather brand new type of money.

that's a very lengthy definition for money :o
why not just use and understand the simple one, here taken from wikipedia
bitcoin fulfills the main functions of money, also transparent publicly verifiable record (blockchain)
and bitcoin is trying to be an universal money, hope to be accepted by all nations

LOL

btw, what is the main intent of the op why he presented an argument that bitcoin is fake money? if he believes on what he wrote, why is he here in this forum??? everyone can make a good argument why bitcoin is fake, why bitcoin is really worthless and so on and so forth.
but whats the point? we are already in this stage where BTC has already surpassed a lot of hurdles and its position in the crypto market is still going strong.

Those stages refer to putting new money into circulation and taking it out of circulation. When you buy something or get paid this refers to money that is already in circulation.

FED prints dollar when US government request for it. Dollar is backed buy debt.
Any other currency is backed by dollar.
Tell me how long this system you expect to survive?

This is irrelevant for this topic.

Incorrect terms -

instead of $ = real money and BTC = fake money,

it should be $ = old money and BTC = new money.

How it's irrelevant? You are questioning Bitcoin as money and I am questioning fiat that has considered as money. If there are any question here then the entire fiat system is questionable.

you first start by inventing your own definition of something and then try to convince others to accept YOUR definition of that thing then you continue to make your conclusion based on that initial false definition!

with that logic i can set certain conditions and prove that you don't even exist just because i said so. but you wouldn't cease to exist because of that definition.

it is the same with bitcoin. the definition of money as a medium of exchange is simple and clear. and since bitcoin can be used as a currency, it is a real currency or in the more commonly used term "money".

I disapproved the using of term money because it is not money in the first place.
it can be used to pay for selective things but it was not money at all.
The long explanation does not give us the most important things why Bitcoin is not money.
In the first place, it was not money because there is no hard copy of bitcoin.

Remember everything was just made by that 1 person which we consider the brain of bitcoin no other than Satoshi.
so far there has no flaw with this thing so we don't have
a reason to doubt it and until now we continue to support it.

It seems like you don't understand how Bitcoin mining works. A lot of electricity is invested not in creation of new coins, but in order to win the block reward. The more miners around, the higher hashing power you must have to increase the probability of winning the reward for creating a valid block of transactions. Your comparison to money counterfeit machine is absolutely irrelevant here.

Why don't you just fuck off? Seriously? Why are you here? Nothing you have said make any sense in the slightest bit. You make it sound overly complicated because you somehow feel it makes you sound more intelligent but the only thing it serves is make you sound like your speaking mindless dribble.

You clearly live in a fantasy world and have almost no understanding of the economy.

It is extremely easy to understand crypto.

Crypto source = blockchain
Fiat source = goverment

Both are released slowly as to keep inflation under control.
Both can be traded for goods are services.
Both are given value depicted by the demand of the market. (so I can give you $10 instead of swapping my cow for 3 of your sheep we now use value and this value is stored digitally or physically)

So you should go to the people that author the dictionary and tell them that they are wrong since you know more the them.



Definition of money


Money is any good that is widely used and accepted in transactions involving the transfer of goods and services from one person to another. Economists differentiate among three different types of money: commodity money, fiat money, and bank money. Commodity money is a good whose value serves as the value of money

It is irrelevant because speculation about the survival of current monetary system has nothing to do with the question whether Bitcoin is real money or fake money.

In financial world anything is about offer and demand. As long as buyers are willing to pay the price requested for Btc it is not and will not be fake money.

Imagine that tomorrow nobody will want to buy American dollars. Would dollar be fake money, too?

If you counterfeit dollars they will be used as a currency. But, that doesn't mean they are not fake. I explained in detail what differentiate between fake and real money. In the case of real money, those that put intrinsically worthless paper bills or digital entries into circulation, provide goods or services to the opposite party -- current bills or entries holders-- which happens when they take these bills or entries out of circulation . In the case of fake money, they extract goods and services from the opposite party and than they disappear without providing any goods and services to this party. Basically, they leave worthless bills or entries in an infinite circulation chain, and were just using those to lure the public into transferring real money, goods and services into their hands.

You are not making sense anymore. The current monetary system has everything to do with Bitcoin. Your current system is as broken as a fragile glass. It's not far away from another financial collapses that happened in 2008. You lot like to be fucked by FED.

Why I am here? Because I am making an educational video about Bitcoin being fake money and I wanted to see if my approach is understandable to an average Joe. I see that it is not, so I will have to change something.

No, you seem to misunderstand money and Bitcoin too.
Shortly, your long story is like telling that Puma is counterfeit Adidas.


However... let me show you how we stay.
The definition of money is

And fake means counterfeit. You know, for this you need the original thing to copy/fake it. And exactly the miners you blame and also all the full nodes over the world ensures that "counterfeit Bitcoin" cannot exist.

Unfortunately, no one has specifically tried to highlight this problem. In developed countries like the United States, Bitcoin and other digital currencies are considered commodities, although in practice they are still used as a means of payment. they don't consider it fake money

If you hack your bank and put some additional zeros to you account you basically counterfeited digital dollars, but no original thing to copy it existed. So given your logic it is impossible to make fake digital money. This is obviously absurd. Fake money is the one that is intrinsically worthless and is put into circulation with the intention to extract real money, goods and services from other people, without providing these people something valuable in the future.

As I said, you don't understand money. If you hack in a bank, you don't create counterfeit dollars.

The dollar is the physical form for debt. For "I owe you" a certain amount of.. things.
When the banks will show you a number in the account, that's not dollars, since it's not physical. That's simply "the bank owes you this amount". Completely different thing! That's why for every dollar you deposit, they can lend .. how many? 6, 8? Because it's only a promise, not money.
When you pay with the card, you "transact" the same "I owe you" in the digital form. It's not (physical) dollars.

And when you hack in, you trick the bank to think they owe you back more than you deposited. When you withdraw from ATM, you'll get dollars. And I don't know any ATM the delivers fake dollars.

So by your definition of Money a intermediary such as Bank should exist to identify him as a party responsible for putting money into circulation... <your words>  ::) Well, that is exactly why Bitcoin was developed to remove the power of corrupt Banks from our monetary system.

My definition of money is a system of money in general use in a particular country. Bitcoin is becoming more mainstream now and it is just a question of time, before we can say that it is in general use.  ;)  It only becomes legal tender, when the government accept it as a currency or a medium of exchange. <That will probably never happen>  :P

The dollar is debt, regardless if it is physical or digital. You can counterfeit both by creating bills or digits that are not backed by loan contract or your obligation to reply the debt. Hence, you are using semantics and focus on things irrelevant for this topic.

If you don't want to follow logic, that's your problem. Hacking into bank is not creating counterfeit money. Period.
However, the fact you don't want to follow logic means that you are most probably trolling and I don't intend to feed trolls, so I'll stop here. Have a nice day.

The only thing government has to control its citizen is to control their finance. Government knows it very well and they will do everything in their power to have their control over their citizens.

Problem is: Regular people, average joe are not financially educated. In some cases a financially educated person does not bother much. Thanks to Bitcoin, decentralized technology that gives us hope.

I am following logic. When you hack your bank, put digits into your account and then use these digits to buy goods with your debit card, you basically got goods from the market participants without any obligation to provide this participants with some goods in the future. The same thing happens when you buy goods with counterfeit physical bills or mined bitcoins. In all these cases you are not using bills or digits as an auxiliary means to exchange goods or other valuable things in the market, but as fraudulent means to extract valuable things from market participants. And this not definition of money but fraud.

Cryptos entered as a new form of currency in the vocabulary(the virtual currency). Virtual currencies such as bitcoins have no physical existence and are traded and stored in electronic form. So what I am saying is it does not really need to fit your definition completely.

Digits added to a dollar bank account via hacking also have no physical existence and are traded and stored electronically when you spent them with a debit card, but that doesn't mean they are not fake digital dollars.

No, governments can control a lot more things than people's finances. In China we have the "Great Firewall of China" that are being used for Internet censorship and this is used to prevent Western influence and open-minded thought. So coming back to "Bitcoin is fake money" you would see how internet censorship would influence the adoption of a global border-less currency and how a government can play a key role in preventing this. <Blocking online Bitcoin merchants in foreign countries and also forums where "financial freedom" is discussed.>

This is why I am saying that governments are key to the mainstream adoption of Crypto currencies and without their support, Bitcoin would not go mainstream.  >:(

He is here to put up this argument that bitcoin is fake, I guess, since this is forum is a discussion related to bitcoins. I think the point he is trying to make is that bitcoin can’t be used everywhere like fiat does, though bitcoin is becoming popular nowadays not all establishments accepts bitcoin thus, you have to convert it to the accepted currency before you can buy anything.

Bitcoin is not at all fake because you can convert it to accepted currency and buy something, I think the only thing that make bitcoin fake are those people who use it in a bad way.

That is right, I think that dollar reign is beginning to come to an end because to me it has even caused more damage to the world, and it has been used as means of corruption more than we think it is, it was the lapses in the dollar system that made satoshi think of coming up with a technology that would correct some of the mess that has been created by dollar overtime.

One of the benefit of bitcoin as money is that it has limited supply, and that is how money should behave in a normal circumstance, unlike USD that is into limited and can even be printed by any drug lord, so what is the real thing about that. Since fiat has been in existence, it has been one problem or the other in the world, so it is time we try a new system of cryptocurrency which will serve as global currency.

Bitcoin is neither real nor new money but new fake money, and that's due to simple fact it cannot perform the primary function of money. Repeating the mantra of it being money won't make said  fact go away. Also, conspiracy theories about the collapse of the dollar won't change the fact that, since it's appearance, this currency performs the primary function of money and is therefore real money -- regardless of its eventual imperfections.

that's true but also repeating the mantra that "bitcoin is fake money" doesn't turn it into a fact either.
the only fact is that you are trying so hard here to bend the facts to your own will. otherwise bitcoin is real money and it is performing all the things that are expected of money. it is just new and not-yet-matured compared to the fiat system that has existed for ages!

Nice one. you know exactly what the poster is aiming at. I mean with your  "Just make Bitcoin certificates and use that as money" suggestion. I think it can be replicated in Bitcoin world.. why not? I think the idea will work great if it's done well by a company/startup.

OP other criticisms are bit confusing. It seems he want some kind of intermediary in Bitcoin world. That would go against the ideal of Bitcoin.

All fake money perform all the functions that are expected of money, expect the most important one - to serve as means for exchanging goods and services. So, the lack of this function makes bitcoin fake money.

When money is in the form of a certificate, this certificate must entitle its holder to some actual thing like gold, some other commodity, or goods in general. Just printing a paper and put some letters and numbers on it, is creating nothing but a worthless piece of paper. Thus, in order for bitcoin to be real money, prior to putting it into circulation miners must store some commodity at some wearhouse so that bitcoin holders can claim it if they want.

Well believe it or not bitcoin is store of value which has it way to grow thru p2p trade and also depend on supply and demand which cut short the inflation on the aspect of fiat but in bitcoin what you have today in respect to 1btc will in next couple of months be 0.5btc or even less , though bitcoin is volatile in nature but is very deflate in economy way.

you got a point there  . there are reports about fake money  . they are verry simillar to a real money and cant be easily identified by a normal individual if he dont use such detectors or if he dont scan it properly  . what do you mean mean you say lack of this function ? where do fake money does lacking of ? to become original  ?  so being fake does also makes bitcoin fake ? lol no  .  btc is real , and there is no such thing as fake btc afaik because its online and it has no physical form that can someone just copy .

You've got a very long post right there. Great job! I was kind of bored reading it though.

The case with monetary system is like this: a certain group of people agreed on inventing what they call as money. And then they agreed that this money has corresponding values and that it is going to become the medium of commerce. These are all implemented with certain rules and regulations they also agreed. They also agreed, furthermore, that anything that does not fall within the specifications are not money.

Well, then, a group of people could actually choose not to effin care about their definitions and rules and agreements and whatever. Any group of people could actually invent their own version of money and set their own monetary rules and regulations. Any group of people could actually dismiss all those as plain stupidity of the rulers and whoever in their circles and stick to the primitive ways of barter. Any community could even just adopt a system of community sharing. 

Ooohhh liver punch.
There it goes.
It is just faith.
How could a paper be that valuable than anything else in this world? Because you believe it can buy anything. All people does except for those people in the mountains who didnt even see what money is.
You input government and everything and they have manipulated it. Since you are part of the government then you will obey.
Look at the price of bitcoin, why the hell they cannot stop it from price soaring? People believe in it!

What is this commodity money? Salt, rocks, pigs? 

How can miners take Bitcoin out of circulation?
I understand once the Bitcoin is "mined" it is mined and that
applies to the 21 million that will ever be available. 

All money is a belief in that there is an exchange between parties
who agree to accept "money" for whatever goods and services are offered or delivered.

It seems this indisputable proof is based on fake assumptions.
Even Coinbase and CoinMarketCp do not agree with the argument.

Sir ;
You should understand few things :-

1. Before saying Bitcoins is fake you should take into account the sentiments this this community.

2. Who gave you this idea that Bitcoins is like money ?
   It's *100 more than that , it's stocks + money+ commodity all combined in one , thus don't use the old equations here , make some new ones yourself.

3. Indisputable ?
  It's something that belongs to the future thus one should actually forget about current world arguments, Bitcoins is a thing of the future .. people will criticise it because they simply don't understand it .

There are such topics that speak negatively about Bitcoin, which you do not want to read at all, since this is complete nonsense.  It seems to me that only those people who lost their money due to their greed when trying to trade and earn using Bitcoin or when investing their money at the end of 2017, when Bitcoin was at its peak, can speak negatively.  I am sure that if the situation with the scalability of Bitcoin changes, then this coin will interest even more investors, which will further increase its popularity and price in the cryptocurrency market.

Cool thing about this forum is that has no censorship. So stupidities like this thread has a space. Luckily internet don't forget, so we all are gonna remember the troll/moron  is this guy. This is also an anonymous forum. That's good also. Because of this only this guy will know privately that he/her is a faggot.

Definitely that is truly correct mate we need to accept what we have so far about decentralized crypto currency all we need to do is trust and faith the capability of bitcoin as a new future of money. The important now we that bitcoin is very useful nad give hope for the people how to get decent job.

I feel sorry for you guys. You are the victims of a modern investment scam and it is hard to accept such reality. But, acting irrational won't make this reality go away. You cannot compare the ownership of a virtual address and a number (Bitcoin) with ownership of a company or a commodity. It's irrational. Fantasizing about the great future of fake money is also irrational. I created this topic to provide a simple logical argument that shows why bitcoin is fake money. But you all just ignore this argument and repeate the same old fantasies that have nothing to do with it. I'd prefer you either stuck to the topic or not bother commenting. Thanks.

What you say is not new, and has been stated for years by bankers, government officials and many others. Yet many people have been using BTC as money all this time, buying with it airline tickets, luxury cars, houses etc.

In fact, anything can be money if enough people believe in it. Don't be like an American tourist in a market in Mumbai shouting at vendors who accept Indian rupee: "Why are you selling your goods for these pieces of paper? It's not money! Only US dollar is money!" It's ridiculous.

Beliefs are not economic categories. You cannot believe in money. Money is either commodity (gold, silver, copper, salt, tea, shells, alcohol, cigarettes, silk, candy, nails, cocoa beans, cowries..) or an item representing some entitlement -- to a specified amount of gold(good certificate) or to goods and services of borrowers(Dollar). I explained in the OP how these entitlements are realized. Commodities and entitlements are capable of performing the primary function of money and that is why they are real money. In the OP I also explained how said function is performed. Bitcoin is a numerical mark in a memory and as such in is not capable of performing the primary function of money. So even if all the world believed in it, Bitcoin would not be money.

We must respect each of everyone’s opinions mate ,trolls are part of our community here and sometimes their trolling results to opposite response from public
That instead of falling value crypto gains more after some trolls comes out
I personally understand OP’s sentiment but what I can suggest is “if you don’t believe crypto”then just go away and let people manage their own live in here

When some things are yet to be totally accepted, it is exposed to discrimination by the non accepting party. A lot of things by technology always appear unreal unstill it is established. Although Bitcoin is not yet generally accepted as money. Real bitcoin users have enough proof that bitcoin is real and since it is a "FUTURE CURRENCY" it is still in progress.
Your article is one reason for me always saying, fiat may be permitted to remain for certain people who may not be able to use bitcoin

Nonsense.

BTC is ALREADY successfully being used as money to buy goods and services.

Showing your claims to be obviously false.

From what I know, Bitcoin has never claimed to be money but a peer to peer payment instrument. This is clearly different because money reflects the trust of users of money to the issuer of money, namely the Government or the Central Bank and must be accepted by citizens. While Bitcoin is trusted by its users only and because the transaction has begun to grow, the Government takes a middle ground by calling it a digital asset.

In my opinion, the term money currently in use has also gone off track because in its nature money is a medium of exchange and it is agreed by both parties to carry out transactions and Bitcoin can be categorized as money if this term is used because both believe in the value of Bitcoin but because the Government only recognizes money issuance, the Government calls it an asset

Bitcoin helps a lot because of the opportunity on working on it and having it as a salary for the services you offered that is more higher than your earning from your stable job. Sometimes it blinded you when you want to take much of it but ended to lose everything because of your decision and greediness.

You can invent your own world with your own definition of money and other things, and if enough people agree with you, you can be a cult leader, with all the benefits attached to this position. But so far people in the world we live in agree with the following definition of money:


As a free individual, you have the right to go against the whole world and deny the definitions the world believes in, but you must realize that it's you who lives in a fantasy world, not the people who believe that Bitcoin is money.

It is you that live in a fantasy world. Money is not the thing you believe in. Money is either commodity or entitlement. Verifiable record is only evidence that commodity or entitlement exists and that you are its holder. You cannot make a payment by inserting number into a database. In a banking system, inserting number into your account only evidences that you have the entitlement to goods and services of borrowers, as explained in the OP.  Payment is transfer of commodity or entitlement. Hence, by inserting number into the blockchain you are not paying, but just managing data in a database.

You cannot make payment by inserting number into a database. Payment is performed by transferring utilities or entitlements, while number in a database only expresses the quantity or the size of what is transferred. Watch the video for details.

I agree, this is one another attempt to ruin the reputation of bitcoin. Calling it a fake, people try to drive it into the framework, drawing a parallel with the fiat. But this is useless and impossible, since there is a demand for bitcoins, it's used and it's still the leader among any other digital money.

Bitcoin is a number inserted into a database. How can you "ruin the reputation" of data in a database? What is there  to ruin? Also, how can there be a demand for inserting numbers into a database? Demand is for goods and services (utilities) or entitlements(fiat money, stocks, bonds, gold certificates, etc.). The phrase "demand for Bitcoin" is an oxymoron. What we have in the case of bitcoin is fake money and fake market instrument, as explained in the video linked in the OP.

You keep saying this as if fiat money is something much more than that. It's not. Money, in any form, is a product of our collective imagination. If we stop believing in it, all money is gone.

Maybe try to read some books by modern thinkers, such as Yuval Noah Harari, for example, to see that your rant regarding how Bitcoin is not money is ridiculous.

You cannot change reality by copy/pasting opinions. Fiat is debt and debt will not go away if you stop believing in it, i.e. borrowers will provide goods and services to fiat holders to get money for repaying the debts,  regardless of what they believe. Comparing that system with Bitcoin, i.e. with inserting numbers into a database when someone gives goods, services or fiat for free is denial of reality. So, no matter how hard you try with these copy/pasting or empty appeals to "modern thinkers", reality won't change.

I'm copy/pasting opinions from respected sources, such as Wikipedia and TED, because I don't claim that I'm someone whose opinion must be highly regarded. But it seems like you think that you don't need any other sources than your own head, thinking that you are smarter than anyone around. That's why I see no point in continuing this conversation.