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Author Topic: [VIDEO]An indisputable proof that bitcoin is fake money and...  (Read 499 times)
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September 10, 2019, 12:47:45 PM
Last edit: September 23, 2019, 08:26:02 AM by antikvark
 #1

... fake market instrument

Video version of the argument: https://youtu.be/aZzH1Js2l4k

The easiest way to detect if paper or digital currency is real money or fake money is to check whether it can perform the primary function of money, which is to serve as an auxiliary means for exchanging goods and services. Real money is capable of performing this function while fake money is not.

Suppose that a guy hacks into his bank and put additional digits into his account. Then he uses his debit card to buy goods and services with these digits. Suppose that he also used money counterfeit machine to print dollar bills that he then spent in the market. What is obvious in both of these cases  is that this digits and bills were not created to serve as an auxiliary means for exchanging goods and services. Instead they were created to serve as fraudulent means for extracting goods and services from the market participants. For that reason they do not perform the primary function of money and as such they are fake money.

Now let's check what happens when bills and digits are created in the banking system. Suppose that Federal Reserve printed new dollar bills and lent them to a commercial bank which further lent them to some borrower. Also suppose that the commercial bank created dollar digits and lent them to the same borrower by putting them into his bank account. Finally the borrower uses these bills and digits to buy some goods and services in the market. What is immediately obvious here is that this borrower got these goods and services from market participants in the same way as the guy that created fake dollar digits and bills. But there's one huge difference here. Unlike that guy the borrower will return goods and services back to the market participants. Namely, given that the borrower has the obligation to repay his loan, he needs back those dollar digits and bills that he previously put into circulation. The most common way to get them is employment. As an employee he produces goods or services. Those are then traded on the market for dollar digits or bills which are then used for his salary. Finally his salary is used for loan payments. The process just described will continue until he completely pays off his loan. So although the borrower contributed to the pool of goods and services with his employment he cannot access this pool because his salary went for loan payments. Instead to borrower the access to the pool was granted to the market participants that had dollar digits and bills. And that's how the borrower returns goods or services back to the market participants. In other words unlike the guy that created fake money, the borrower did not use digits and bills for extracting goods and services from the market participants. Instead, he used them as an auxiliary means for exchanging goods and services with these participants. For that reason, bills and digits that are created in the banking system perform the primary function of money and as such they are real money.

The money in the form of gold certificates works in a similar way. It is just that party that puts them into circulation must first deposit the goods in the form of gold at some depository. The depository then issues the certificate which is traded on the market for goods or services. Then the current holder of this certificate can take it to the depository in order to claim the deposited gold. Once the holder receives the gold the exchange process between him and the gold depositor is finished. As we can see, the gold certificates are also used as an auxiliary means for exchanging goods and services. For that reason they are also real money.

Now that we have learned how real money operates we can finally turn our attention to Bitcoin. In the bitcoin system a group of people known as miners is the one that puts bitcoin into circulation. They do that by purchasing goods services or real money from the market participants, who in turn recieve digits to their virtual addresses. Now is the role of bitcoin miners similar to the role of borrowers and gold depositors? Or is it similar to the role of the guy that put fake digits and bills into circulation? In other words, do miners have the obligation to take Bitcoin out of circulation and in that way return goods and services to bitcoin holders. Further did they have the obligation to deposit some commodity prior to putting bitcoins into circulation so that bitcoin holders can claim it if they want to? Or, are these miners free of any such obligation. Well the answer is obvious. Just like the guy that created fake digits and bills, once miners extracted goods services and real money from the market participants they are free of any obligation and they can disappear without a trace.

This is indisputable proof that bitcoin is fake money. It doesn't  serve as an auxiliary  means by which bitcoin miners and market participants exchange goods and services. Instead, it serves as fraudulent means by which miners extract goods services and real money from the market participants.

Besides being fake money bitcoin is also fake market instrument. This is because it is impossible to evaluate its market price. If something is real market instrument one can easily determine whether its market price is cheap or expensive. Let's check a couple of examples.

If a bond with a face value of $1,000 a coupon rate of 5% and maturity in 5 years is priced at $500 we immediately know it is cheap. If priced at $5,000 we know it is expensive.

If a bread roll is priced the same as pizza we immediately know it is expensive because the utility that is need-satisfying power  of a bread roll is lower than that of a pizza.

If a guy was granted a loan in the amount of 50,000 units of money and used his small house as collateral but then he asks a big luxury house in exchange for these 50,000 units we immediately know this is expensive. This is because although money created in the banking system gives the entitlement to goods and services of borrowers, as we explained at the beginning of this video, this entitlement is approximately equivalent to the size of their collaterals. In our case the collateral is a small house. So given that the utility of a small house is lower than the utility of big luxury house we know that exchanging such house for 50,000 units of money is expensive. If someone would offer him a bicycle for this 50,000 units we would immediately know this is cheap. This is because he must produce the goods or services in the value equivalent of his collateral in order to get money for loan payments. And obviously his house has higher utility value than a bicycle.

And finally, if the book value of a company per share is $100 and the company has small positive earnings we immediately know that if it is priced at $500 it is expensive. If priced at $10 we know it is cheap.

So in all mentioned examples we have used the utility or entitlement behind market instruments to determine whether their market price is cheap or expensive. To put it differently, when we exchange real market instruments we can easily compare what utility or entitlement we recieve as buyers and what utility or entitlement we give-up as sellers.

In the case of bitcoin this is impossible because there is neither utility nor entitlement behind bitcoin. In other words, unlike a bread roll or a pizza you cannot use bitcoin for satisfying human needs to be able to compare utilities. Unlike money created in the banking system bitcoin doesn't give you the entitlement to someone's goods and services. Unlike bonds bitcoin doesn't give you the entitlement to periodic payments and return of initial investment after some fixed period of time. Unlike stocks bitcoin doesn't give you the entitlement to profit of some company or share in its liquidation balance.

So essentially, there is neither utility nor entitlement behind bitcoin. That's why when you decide to buy Bitcoin, that is, a number, there is nothing to put into comparison with the thing you give-up, and it is impossible to evaluate whether the market price of bitcoin is cheap or expensive.

With that said we can easily see where the crux of bitcoin fakeness lies. When you buy real market instrument you become the holder of some utility or entitlement and then some number is inserted into a database in order to express the quantity or size of received utility or entitlement. However when you buy bitcoin only number is inserted into database. That's all. And this number expresses nothing but itself.

So bitcoin is just a worthless number in a database that was smartly disguised as a real money and market instrument in order to lure the public to purchase it. And this is basically how investment scams operate. Every investment scam uses some worthless item that is disguised as something valuable to attract investors. In our case this item was a number in a database. The Bitcoin scheme is therefore a classical investment scam. Now this scam is used-up due to the enormous mining costs. We can say that current miners are also its victims. But this was to be expected given that investment scams are intended to benefit its designers not the general public. In the case of bitcoin its designers are its initial miners. They mined large amounts of bitcoins at almost no cost. Then they spread the false story of bitcoin being real money and market instrument to lure the public into transferring their valuable possessions into their hands. And they were successful. Very very successful.
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September 10, 2019, 01:08:06 PM
 #2

Tether matches your description better than Bitcoin.

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September 10, 2019, 01:15:37 PM
Merited by AmoreJaz (1)
 #3

In the case of gold certificates things are similar, it is just that those two stages are reversed. Namely in stage one, one party of the exchange deposits some gold at the bank and receives a certificate for it. This certificate is then traded for goods or services and in that way put into circulation. In stage two the opposite party i.e. a current holder of the certificate takes it to the bank to claim the deposited gold. Once the holder receives the gold the exchange process is finished. And this is how goods and services are exchanged with the help of gold certificates.

So the solution is easy. Just make Bitcoin certificates and use that as money. Problem solved Wink

On a more serious note, anyone can establish a rather arbitrary definition of A and then claim that B is not A because B does not fit that arbitrary definition. But there's no knowledge to be gained from that line of argumentation.

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September 10, 2019, 01:22:42 PM
 #4

Everything is fake, its all a just a faith based system.  It just matters that the person your exchanging goods or services with accepts what you are offering.

It is really just manipulation by others, even bitcoin is controlled heavily by the whales and miners but it is the best decentralized system we have so far.
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September 10, 2019, 02:17:04 PM
 #5

In the case of gold certificates things are similar, it is just that those two stages are reversed. Namely in stage one, one party of the exchange deposits some gold at the bank and receives a certificate for it. This certificate is then traded for goods or services and in that way put into circulation. In stage two the opposite party i.e. a current holder of the certificate takes it to the bank to claim the deposited gold. Once the holder receives the gold the exchange process is finished. And this is how goods and services are exchanged with the help of gold certificates.

So the solution is easy. Just make Bitcoin certificates and use that as money. Problem solved Wink

On a more serious note, anyone can establish a rather arbitrary definition of A and then claim that B is not A because B does not fit that arbitrary definition. But there's no knowledge to be gained from that line of argumentation.

I want to continue on the same line!! Bitcoin will never match the definition and usability of a real-world fiat currency so it makes no sense to compare bitcoin with them!

Without going theough all these high level fundamentals of the currency system, I can say, bitcoin is an absolutely new type of money for the evolved need of the consumers! Comparing bitcoin with fiat currency is a bad idea!

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September 10, 2019, 02:24:16 PM
 #6

I want to continue on the same line!! Bitcoin will never match the definition and usability of a real-world fiat currency so it makes no sense to compare bitcoin with them!

Without going theough all these high level fundamentals of the currency system, I can say, bitcoin is an absolutely new type of money for the evolved need of the consumers! Comparing bitcoin with fiat currency is a bad idea!

Both fiat and bitcoin are different in nature and accessibility. While fiat has been around for ages and people used it as an exchange for goods and services, bitcoin also acts on a similar manner, but is exclusively confined in the internet. That alone restricts its usage and puts an inevitable limitation as to its usage to individuals. In other words, only some people can have access in getting and using bitcoin as a means of exchange compared to fiat.

Currently, this may be the case but once the world changes and adapts, we might see cryptocurrencies being the main currency in the very far future.
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September 10, 2019, 02:36:48 PM
 #7

By your own definitions, I would describe Bitcoin as commodity money. It is a highly divisible good that people wish to purchase either with their fiat or in barter for physical goods. I don't disagree with most of what you've said, but consider the role of a Bitcoin miner more carefully. Their job is not to print Bitcoins or bring them into circulation, its to secure the Bitcoin network. The block reward is a subsidy designed to incentive miners until its worth working solely for transaction fees. The miners are performing a service and those that are taking advantage of this service are in turn paying a transaction fee.

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September 10, 2019, 03:16:06 PM
 #8



Bitcoin can be fake if there is no use to it and for over 10 years now this cryptocurrency has had shown all the best and the worst parts of it...maybe at this part of its journey it is already too late to argue that it can be fake as this has been settled long time ago. How many times has Bitcoin been declared as dead? And how many times it has risen from the ashes just like the legendary Phoenix? This alone should be telling us why Bitcoin is not and will not be fake. Bitcoin is an opportunity to take something into our very hands though of course it is not perfect but nothing is.

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September 10, 2019, 03:23:50 PM
Merited by AmoreJaz (1)
 #9

The easiest way to detect if something is real money or fake money is to check whether it can perform the primary function of money, which is to act as a means by which parties exchange goods and services in the market. Real money is capable of performing this function, while fake money is not.


Your line of thinking is some kinda wrong because you are basing your whole argument on the premise that money is real! Well, it's not, at least the USD which you allude to by referencing the Federal Reserve is not...

Yes, it's true, BTC is not backed by anything other than the faith placed squarely on it by the fools who buy it and the faith exercised by the even greater fools who buy it from those lesser fools. Yes BTC might as well be just numbers in cyberspace, a mirage. All this is true.

What is also true but less palatable to comprehend is that the U.S. dollars that are issued by the Fed that you made reference to are likewise an illusion. They too consist mainly of numbers that are also just domicile in the cyberspace. Sometimes they’re stored in paper or coins, but while the paper and coins are material, the dollars they represent are not. U.S. dollars are not backed by anything other than the faith of the fools who accept it as payment and of other fools who agree in turn to accept it as payment from them.

The main difference between BTC and the USD is that, for the moment at least, the illusion, in the case of dollars, is more widely, more fiercely believed and I might add vehemently defended by the same fools who accept it as payment and the greater fools who agree in turn to accept it as payment.

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September 10, 2019, 04:10:06 PM
 #10

Quote from: 1A1zP1e          https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5145354.0
Bitcoin is not money.

It is more an artwork with 21,000,000 limited editions. And each limited edition contains 100,000,000 limited pieces. (satoshis)

Bitcoin is not money but can be used as money.

As it is not money, so it can't be fake money.
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September 10, 2019, 04:17:24 PM
 #11

bitcoin is not a commodity
  - a commodity is a raw material used to create other materials or products. EG gold->jewellery. wheat->bread

bitcoin is not money
  - money is a form of currency offered,controlled, regulated by a countries government

howver currency is anything people deam of value that can be transfered to different owners by their desire to swap for other things of value

bitcoin is an asset currency. and there is nothing wrong with being such.
'money' failed communities, its creation and utility is based on making people get in debt for the money to grow

do not think of bitcoin as a commodity due to the 'bitcoin is like digital gold' phrase, as that phrase is not describing golds commodity features but golds asset features. yes gold sits on 2 markets. so dont get confused

as for those saying that bitcoins value is faith, emotion based. well no. thats the speculative PRICE. not value. bitcoins value is actually its cost of its acquisition.
if it costs a miner $9k to mine 1btc they will not want to sell it for less.
if it costs a buyer $9k to buy 1btc they are not going to want to sell for less

..
money 100 years ago used to be based on the value of the cost of gold. now its based losely on the countrys minimum wage
EG $10 can be seen as an hours labour for most average american states. yet some value $10 less or more


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Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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September 10, 2019, 05:01:56 PM
 #12

Man, you start by saying how simple it is to prove your argument, and then you go down a rather convoluted path, and arrive at that of anonymous miners?

I'll start (and end) at your finale: miners are not similar to borrowers and gold depositors. If the aspect of block rewards has confused you, return in a few years when that reward is negligible. This "miner" term has really confused a lot of people. They're there chiefly to secure the network, verify and validate txs. Let's not forget.

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September 10, 2019, 07:33:21 PM
 #13

You people have offered various responses here, but all of them miss the point: not only that bitcoin is not money since it cannot perform the primary function of money, but bitcoin operates as a classical investment fraud. Namely, all frauds use some intrinsically worthless item in order to lure people into transferring their goods, services or real money into the hands of fraudsters. Fake dollars in my analogy is one such item. Promise of big returns is another. Fake money in the form of blockchain entries is another. Fake dollars are not valuable because the guy invested a lot of funds into money counterfeit machine. In the same way blockchain entries are not valuable because a miner invested a lot of electricity to generate them. Current miners are also the victims of bitcoin fraudsters — the designers and initial bitcoin miners. These miners got large amounts of bitcoins at no cost. Meaning, they created an intrinsically worthless item and then spread the false story of it being money, with the intention of luring people into transferring goods, services or real money into their hands. Hence, no matter what semantical tricks you use in order to place bitcoin into some legitimate investment category, the only important thing here is that bitcoin operates as a classical investment fraud. Specifically it operates the same way as a classical money counterfeiting. It is just that money and counterfeit machine are not physical but virtual.
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September 10, 2019, 08:16:44 PM
 #14

Fiat where one time fake until  they were legalized by the government as a means of payment,  you can make money out of anything as long as it has a legal backing, same applies to btc, once legalized, it becomes currency to transact with, only that the government are yet to do what is right Cool

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September 10, 2019, 09:19:03 PM
 #15

The easiest way to detect if something is real money or fake money is to check whether it can perform the primary function of money, which is to act as a means by which parties exchange goods and services in the market. Real money is capable of performing this function, while fake money is not.
I am not sure which country you are from, but lets say the function of money depends upon which fiat currency you are holding, if you own dollar and if you are travelling to another continent you need to convert the currency in order to use it and that is the case with bitcoin as you have the freedom to sell in any local exchange and then convert to your local currency. So if you think that the primary function of money is to perform the basic function of trade bitcoin is more than capable of doing that Tongue.
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September 10, 2019, 09:30:35 PM
 #16

Everything is fake, its all a just a faith based system.  It just matters that the person your exchanging goods or services with accepts what you are offering.

It is really just manipulation by others, even bitcoin is controlled heavily by the whales and miners but it is the best decentralized system we have so far.
I agree with you it all comes down to our own perspective,
Other might call it fake or whatever but it all depends on us.
And even if some says that it is a fake money then it is one of the most expensive fake money that I've known so far.
And it is capable of being used just like a regular currency so for me it is not a fake but rather brand new type of money.


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September 10, 2019, 11:37:18 PM
 #17

that's a very lengthy definition for money Shocked
why not just use and understand the simple one, here taken from wikipedia
Money is any item or verifiable record that is generally accepted as payment for goods and services and repayment of debts, such as taxes, in a particular country or socio-economic context. The main functions of money are distinguished as: a medium of exchange, a unit of account, a store of value and sometimes, a standard of deferred payment. Any item or verifiable record that fulfils these functions can be considered as money.
bitcoin fulfills the main functions of money, also transparent publicly verifiable record (blockchain)
and bitcoin is trying to be an universal money, hope to be accepted by all nations

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September 10, 2019, 11:53:29 PM
 #18

I can prove that all currencies are fake money.

When I take a trip to the U.S., I buy goods with dollars. That's stage one. However, I am paid in euros, so there is never any stage two. Therefore, dollars are fake money. When someone from the U.S. visits Spain, they do the same thing. Therefore, the euro is fake money. You can extend this to any currency.

Therefore, all currencies are fake money.


LOL

btw, what is the main intent of the op why he presented an argument that bitcoin is fake money? if he believes on what he wrote, why is he here in this forum??? everyone can make a good argument why bitcoin is fake, why bitcoin is really worthless and so on and so forth.
but whats the point? we are already in this stage where BTC has already surpassed a lot of hurdles and its position in the crypto market is still going strong.




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antikvark
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September 11, 2019, 06:10:21 AM
 #19

I can prove that all currencies are fake money.

When I take a trip to the U.S., I buy goods with dollars. That's stage one. However, I am paid in euros, so there is never any stage two. Therefore, dollars are fake money. When someone from the U.S. visits Spain, they do the same thing. Therefore, the euro is fake money. You can extend this to any currency.

Therefore, all currencies are fake money.

Those stages refer to putting new money into circulation and taking it out of circulation. When you buy something or get paid this refers to money that is already in circulation.
Royse777
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September 11, 2019, 06:20:48 AM
 #20

The easiest way to detect if something is real money or fake money is to check whether it can perform the primary function of money, which is to act as a means by which parties exchange goods and services in the market. Real money is capable of performing this function, while fake money is not.
~snip~
FED prints dollar when US government request for it. Dollar is backed buy debt.
Any other currency is backed by dollar.
Tell me how long this system you expect to survive?

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