Bitcoin Forum

This thread has nothing to do with any particular hardware wallet; it's just a question I've had on my mind for the past week or so.

I haven't visited an electronics retailer like Best Buy or the like in a few years, and I rarely shop at big box outlets like Target or WalMart, but I'm assuming that you wouldn't be able to find anything crypto-related in those stores.  You can find tons of stuff that has to do with money in those places (safes, leather wallets, coin wrappers, accounting ledgers, etc.), but I'm wondering if and when we'll start to see these places sell things like hardware wallets.  IMO that would be a pretty good indication that crypto is moving toward being mainstream.

Note:  I'm well aware that online retailers DO sell hardware wallets.  I'm more interested in retailers with physical stores.  In order to get shelf space in any of them, a product sort of has to be popular and have a chance of selling in a reasonable volume.  

Two questions:  Are there any places that sell hardware wallets (or anything related)?  And if not, do you think we're ever going to get to the point where this is a reality?

I haven't seen any stores with crypto related stuff.  I've seen a couple of bitcon ATMs at gas stations and a mall, but no hardware wallets for sale in a retail establishment.  I tend think you're sort of right about the prospect;  but I suspect mass adoption will lead to us seeing Ledgers and Trezors in BestBuy.  It would be nice to see a big box store take the initiative and start selling them sooner.

Best Buy used to sell the Ledger Nano S but they don't seem to have them in stock anymore. Not sure how up-to-date that information is.
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/ledger-nano-s-cryptocurrency-hardware-wallet/6298661.p?skuId=6298661

Buying hardware wallets at a physical store would go against the principles we all preach and try to respect that says that hardware wallets should only be bought from the official site or an official re seller. It would certainly help for mass adoption but why trust a third party electronic store?!

Well, I bought my Ledger from Amazon and it came factory sealed--yeah, I suppose if I was paranoid I'd start thinking that some hacker along the distribution chain could have planted some malware on it, but I really don't think that happened.  And manufacturers often don't distribute their own products, and I don't see why it should be any different for hardware wallet makers.  As long as the product hasn't been obviously tampered with, I think I'd be safe in trusting a purchase from a physical retailer.

And who's to say that some rogue employee at the manufacturer couldn't sabotage the hardware?  Pretty much anything like that could happen, so I suppose it all depends on your baseline level of trust in people and companies delivering the products they promise.

I took a look at the link, but I don't think those were ever available in their stores--they probably sold them online from their warehouse or however they do it.  That's kind of what Amazon does, and that's not my point.  I'm wondering if and when we'll ever see them on store shelves.

Even if that were to happen, any tampering would be overwritten by a firmware update.  As long as you confirm the firmware is sourced from the actual manufacture (i.e. Ledger Live, Trezor.io/Satoshi Labs, etc.) you'll be safe.  There's still a risk that the hardware wallet as a whole is a forgery or a counterfeit, but if so it would not likely connect to the real manufacturer's apps, and should be easy to spot.

(When you bought your device on Amazon you bought it from Ledger, so no risk)



We say it because you need to be a bit paranoid in the crypto world, but when it will be used massively we won't need to be. When you buy a smartphone you don't buy it from the manufacturer but from the retailer and you don't check if your phone has tampered. Right? Or you don't trust your local retailer to sell your hardware wallet but you trust it to sell you fake meat.
So, it will be the same, why should it be different?

It doesn't have to be different. Being paranoid is too much, but being extra careful is not wrong. The more hands the wallet goes through before it reaches its final destination the bigger the chance that somewhere along the line there is a rogue employer. These chances are still small and insignificant but nonetheless they are still there.
I wouldn't compare a hardware wallet that holds your funds that are irreversible with a regular piece of hardware that simply malfunctions and you return it to the store and get a new one. If a hardware wallet malfunctions because it was tempered with, your funds are gone and nobody except the new address owner of those funds can get them back to you. 

By checking the official Ledger resellers, some seem to be selling their products in their physical stores. One example is Capi Shop (Germany) which is listed as official reseller for Ledger in Germany. They have stores in Berlin, Frankfurt, Munich airports, but also all around the world. We can assume that Ledger products are on their shelves.

https://shop.ledger.com/pages/retailers
https://www.capi.com/location/frankfurt/

Regarding USA, I see Walmart is selling Ledger products via their online store, so there is chance they have it in their physical stores.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ledger-Nano-S-Crypto-Currency-Hardware-Wallet/323894653

As a tech enthusiast, I love going into those kinds of shops that has almost everything. We don't have the Best Buy particular store but something similar, but I guess it can still be counted the same. I go into these kinds of stores and look at the latest technology has to offer, but I haven't thought about checking for any crypto-related stuff. I would assume that if they ever adopt it and sell it locally, the salesman should be knowledgable enough to explain what it could do for them. Accepting it to these kinds of stores would likely increase in popularity, and I would also think that they would accept cryptocurrency too.

Some people resell hardware wallets, crypto merchandise, etc. I don't think it still counts when it should. And I think everyone must accept this kind of technology first and understand it totally before it becomes a reality. I hope we reach this time where everyone would be taking it and making a real mainstream adoption with crypto. 

I have been going around places in HK, Macau, Canada and the US but giant retail stores such as WalMart, Target, Costco and the likes don't really bother selling these type of devices to the masses. They are more focused on gadgets against skimming devices on credit cards and any other objects that may contain financial data, and that's understandable because the market for such is huge compared to hardware wallets. Hardware wallet producers can set up shop actually, but seeing that most people would prefer buying online instead of walking to a physical shop and snatching one, it definitely makes sense that they haven't have a physical store yet. Not to mention that those who would be needing such would probably be too cozy in hiding their identity, so visiting a shop and buying a hardware wallet kinda defeats the purpose of hiding your crypto holding and being anonymous if someone sees you buying that kind of device.

I mean, why would someone buy a hardware wallet if they aren't going to use it?

True, but the same could be said for those buying a safe or opening safe deposit boxes at a bank but there is still a market for that.
You wouldn't need a safe if you don't have important items that you are planning to keep in it.

I think the most problem of the mass adoption is the easy use of such things (here : the hardware wallet).
Using safes, leather wallets ot coin wrappers is something easy, isn'it !?

The hardware wallet mass adoption will come when :
- the price of such hardware will go donw - people won't buy a 90$ things easily.
- the ease of use will be improved - people want somehting they can just plug and use directly.

And last but not least : - when you will be able to sell hardware wallet that already include some crypto-coins inside.
(I remember Casascius or Lealana having trouble while pre-funding coins).

My point of view of course :)

$90 is not that much for a device which can protect millions of dollars worth of coins. Keep in mind that the price also includes support and updates for years. Banks also have their account fees which add up over years.


That's exactly what they are. The setup in not difficult as long as you can read. Trezor even allows users to postpone seed backup and PIN setup. Don't expect to be able to use this kind of wallets for shop payments (NFC). They are not designed for this.


Hell no. Selling wallets with pregenerated private keys is the worst thing companies can do.

I do not understand why some persistently repeat that hardware wallets cost around $100, when in reality their price is actually lower, in some cases half of that amount. US customers can buy Ledger Nano S from Walmart for only $51, and in EU price is around $65. Every year we have a big discounts on hardware wallets (up to 50%), so almost anyone can invest $35 or something like that in coin security.


We need some user interface to use any wallet, why you see a problem in the fact that such software need to be installed? In case of Ledger, you need Ledger Live or Electrum, and it takes less than 5 min to set up any of them.

The Ledger Nano S is only $59 so it is not really that expensive and for most people the Nano S is perfectly fine.
Ledger also has a so called backup plan where you can buy both the Nano X and Nano S for $149 which means you save an additional $29 when you purchase both wallets. Find someone who needs the Nano X and get yourself a Nano S or vice verse, agree on the price and there you go.

Hardware wallet manufacturers also have great deals for Black Friday, Christmas and other anniversaries where you can save up to 50% on your purchase.

I've never seen hardware wallets in physical stores and I expect that won't happen too quick.
Especially the physical stores, which usually pay rent for the space they use, they'll show there the products they expect to sell more. Even if, by chance, they'd have hardware wallets, they won't sell much and they'll stop using space with them.

Why won't sell much? The ones that are here on Bitcointalk will buy it cheaper from the manufacturer. Many from the rest will either not know what's that (and what's that for) either too scared/paranoid to buy from 3rd party (no matter the reasons are good or not).


But there's something else, that could help in advertising. One of the biggest online shops in my country brings new categories of items every Black Friday (and sometimes those categories only for that one day). They had gold, they had cars.. this is a big advertising and maybe one day I'll see there hardware wallets. Maybe other shops in bigger countries have similar approach, I don't know; if there are such shops, maybe the hardware wallet manufacturers can approach them; it would be interesting...

Yeah, I agree on the key generation part but this could lead to a crypto mass adoption and thus hardware wallet adoption.
As we have to trust Exchanges, maybe we can trust a well known company ? But I'm 100% with you when it comes to say : not your keys, not your coins !

Can someone know what's the cheapest hardware wallet (real one, not a cold storage one) on the market ? (My question is business oriented as I'm part of a hardware wallet startup).  :P


Electrum is a must have because it's open source and backed by a great and active community  :)

The real adoption is the opening of official stores for companies that manufacture these devices and then the multiplicity of agents trusted by those official stores. This will reduce shipping fees.
If transaction fees fall and the price stabilizes, people will treat BTC as a currency for everyday use, so they don't need to spend more money on high security.
It costs almost $ 80 in my country.

I don't think that trusted companies like Trezor and Ledger would bother to do such a thing and earn a little on comission. Trezor introduced Trezor Buy (https://blog.trezor.io/how-to-buy-cryptocurrency-with-trezor-fc350ac32acf) which helps less experienced users to choose a good exchange to buy Bitcoin from. It's even easier to exchange coins (https://blog.trezor.io/cryptocurrency-coins-tokens-exchange-trezor-wallet-77a7b92e879) thanks to the integration with major swap platforms.


Ledger HW.1 (https://www.amazon.com/Ledger-HW-1-HW-1/dp/B015N9Z4DU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1498718342&sr=8-2&keywords=ledger+wallet) is the cheapest one, but it's no longer supported. I have seen Ledger rep on Reddit giving a discount on Nano S for users who still haven't upgraded from the HW.1. In Europe, Archos Safe-t mini (https://shop.archos.com/pl/hardware-wallet/588-archos-safe-t-mini.html) seems to be the cheapest hardware wallet with built-in screen. It's basically a Trezor One in a different chassis.

I think it might be a sale price, but the KeepKey is selling for $24.99 on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/stores/node/13205235011?_encoding=UTF8&field-lbr_brands_browse-bin=KeepKey&ref_=bl_dp_s_web_13205235011) right now, a dollar cheaper than the Ledger HW-1.  The Trezor One is $51 (https://www.amazon.com/stores/node/15609285011?_encoding=UTF8&field-lbr_brands_browse-bin=Trezor&ref_=bl_dp_s_web_15609285011), and the Ledger nano S is $59 (https://www.amazon.com/stores/node/13973817011?_encoding=UTF8&field-lbr_brands_browse-bin=Ledger&ref_=bl_dp_s_web_13973817011).  If I was in the market right now I'd buy a Trezor One, even though it's twice as pricey as the KeepKey I think it's the more secure and versatile choice.

We would like to sell our product at 25$ including worldwide shipping.
It might do the trick  :D

But yes, hardware wallets are great things and can get more attraction from lambda people 👌

The recently publicized cheap (less than $100) and successful physical attack on Trezor devices concerns me. Even though I always use long and complex passphrases which would completely mitigate against this attack, I still don't like the fact that it was even possible, and was for years before Ledger publicized it. It makes me concerned about other potential unknown vectors of attack. Disclaimer: I own and use Ledger devices., and I fully accept that there could very well be unknown vectors of attack against them as well.

Still, if you are thinking of getting another hardware device non-urgently, then in previous years both Ledger and Trezor have put on Black Friday deals. If you can wait a couple of months until the end of November, you might save yourself some cash.

The news of this attack vector concerns me as well, as it should everyone.  The wallet does need to be physically accessible to the hacker, so in the event of a loss or theft of a hardware wallet one must look at a strong passphrase as a little time bought, not as a fail-safe.  However, if my Ledger were lost or stolen I would still feel the same way.

My comments above were really just a comparison of the KeepKey and the Trezor One, since both suffer from the same vulnerability.  And if I'm not mistaken, all open source wallets are open to this attack vector.  That's something to consider when shopping for a wallet as well.

I must admit I'm still a fan of the Trezor T, it's my go to wallet.  I did add a much stronger passphrase recently to buy myself some time if anything does happen to it.

thanks for clarifying re supply chain attacks. how common do you think noobs checking device authenticity is? do they tend to use ledger live when they get a ledger vs wallets like electrum or MEW?

i've received counterfeit electronics from amazon (especially when fulfilled by amazon prime) several times so i sometimes worry about this attack vector. there's probably a lot of low hanging fruit out there. shitcoin investors seem particularly vulnerable because this may cause them to skip right over downloading ledger live:

https://i.imgur.com/IAOa1vN.png

That's actually a very good point. I know if I physically lost my Ledger wallet, I would be transferring everything out of it as soon as I possibly could, including everything I have hidden behind the various passphrases I use. I'm not actually counting on the wallet or the passphrase to be permanently secure; all I actually need is them to be secure for a maximum of a few hours until I can sweep my wallets.

When you put it like that, the passphrases I use are massive overkill. I use enough characters to make them similar to a 24 word seed (or 2^256) in terms of entropy, when in reality, far less than that would be sufficient to buy me the time I need. Still, better safe than sorry. I did want to get another hardware wallet to use as an off-site back-up, but then I would probably only be checking it once or twice a month to see if it had been accessed. Do I trust the wallet to remain secure that long, even with my passphrases? I'm not sure.

I haven't saw things like hardware wallets in local shops. Probably there is just not enough demand to sell it, pretty much same thing why shops aren't accepting Bitcoin. But I think it's possible that in future we will see hardware wallets in physical shops. I saw some shops selling it online - it doesn't hurt them to keep some hardware wallets in their warehouse. But there is simply no reason to keep it on every physical shop of their network when it's no guarantees that someone will buy it.
About possible risks - I don't think that it would be risky to buy hardware walket from physical shop - it's same like to buy from official reseller online.