Hardware wallets as a measure of mainstream adoption....?

[The Sceptical Chymist]

This thread has nothing to do with any particular hardware wallet; it's just a question I've had on my mind for the past week or so.

I haven't visited an electronics retailer like Best Buy or the like in a few years, and I rarely shop at big box outlets like Target or WalMart, but I'm assuming that you wouldn't be able to find anything crypto-related in those stores.  You can find tons of stuff that has to do with money in those places (safes, leather wallets, coin wrappers, accounting ledgers, etc.), but I'm wondering if and when we'll start to see these places sell things like hardware wallets.  IMO that would be a pretty good indication that crypto is moving toward being mainstream.

Note:  I'm well aware that online retailers DO sell hardware wallets.  I'm more interested in retailers with physical stores.  In order to get shelf space in any of them, a product sort of has to be popular and have a chance of selling in a reasonable volume.  

Two questions:  Are there any places that sell hardware wallets (or anything related)?  And if not, do you think we're ever going to get to the point where this is a reality?

[DireWolfM14]

I haven't seen any stores with crypto related stuff.  I've seen a couple of bitcon ATMs at gas stations and a mall, but no hardware wallets for sale in a retail establishment.  I tend think you're sort of right about the prospect;  but I suspect mass adoption will lead to us seeing Ledgers and Trezors in BestBuy.  It would be nice to see a big box store take the initiative and start selling them sooner.

[Pmalek]

Best Buy used to sell the Ledger Nano S but they don't seem to have them in stock anymore. Not sure how up-to-date that information is.
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/ledger-nano-s-cryptocurrency-hardware-wallet/6298661.p?skuId=6298661

Buying hardware wallets at a physical store would go against the principles we all preach and try to respect that says that hardware wallets should only be bought from the official site or an official re seller. It would certainly help for mass adoption but why trust a third party electronic store?!

[The Sceptical Chymist]

It would certainly help for mass adoption but why trust a third party electronic store?!

Well, I bought my Ledger from Amazon and it came factory sealed--yeah, I suppose if I was paranoid I'd start thinking that some hacker along the distribution chain could have planted some malware on it, but I really don't think that happened.  And manufacturers often don't distribute their own products, and I don't see why it should be any different for hardware wallet makers.  As long as the product hasn't been obviously tampered with, I think I'd be safe in trusting a purchase from a physical retailer.

And who's to say that some rogue employee at the manufacturer couldn't sabotage the hardware?  Pretty much anything like that could happen, so I suppose it all depends on your baseline level of trust in people and companies delivering the products they promise.

Best Buy used to sell the Ledger Nano S but they don't seem to have them in stock anymore. Not sure how up-to-date that information is.

I took a look at the link, but I don't think those were ever available in their stores--they probably sold them online from their warehouse or however they do it.  That's kind of what Amazon does, and that's not my point.  I'm wondering if and when we'll ever see them on store shelves.

[DireWolfM14]

Well, I bought my Ledger from Amazon and it came factory sealed--yeah, I suppose if I was paranoid I'd start thinking that some hacker along the distribution chain could have planted some malware on it, but I really don't think that happened.

Even if that were to happen, any tampering would be overwritten by a firmware update.  As long as you confirm the firmware is sourced from the actual manufacture (i.e. Ledger Live, Trezor.io/Satoshi Labs, etc.) you'll be safe.  There's still a risk that the hardware wallet as a whole is a forgery or a counterfeit, but if so it would not likely connect to the real manufacturer's apps, and should be easy to spot.

[LeGaulois]

(When you bought your device on Amazon you bought it from Ledger, so no risk)

Buying hardware wallets at a physical store would go against the principles we all preach and try to respect that says that hardware wallets should only be bought from the official site or an official re seller.

We say it because you need to be a bit paranoid in the crypto world, but when it will be used massively we won't need to be. When you buy a smartphone you don't buy it from the manufacturer but from the retailer and you don't check if your phone has tampered. Right? Or you don't trust your local retailer to sell your hardware wallet but you trust it to sell you fake meat.
So, it will be the same, why should it be different?

[Pmalek]

It doesn't have to be different. Being paranoid is too much, but being extra careful is not wrong. The more hands the wallet goes through before it reaches its final destination the bigger the chance that somewhere along the line there is a rogue employer. These chances are still small and insignificant but nonetheless they are still there.
I wouldn't compare a hardware wallet that holds your funds that are irreversible with a regular piece of hardware that simply malfunctions and you return it to the store and get a new one. If a hardware wallet malfunctions because it was tempered with, your funds are gone and nobody except the new address owner of those funds can get them back to you. 

[Lucius]

Two questions:  Are there any places that sell hardware wallets (or anything related)?  And if not, do you think we're ever going to get to the point where this is a reality?

By checking the official Ledger resellers, some seem to be selling their products in their physical stores. One example is Capi Shop (Germany) which is listed as official reseller for Ledger in Germany. They have stores in Berlin, Frankfurt, Munich airports, but also all around the world. We can assume that Ledger products are on their shelves.

https://shop.ledger.com/pages/retailers
https://www.capi.com/location/frankfurt/

Regarding USA, I see Walmart is selling Ledger products via their online store, so there is chance they have it in their physical stores.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ledger-Nano-S-Crypto-Currency-Hardware-Wallet/323894653

[crwth]

As a tech enthusiast, I love going into those kinds of shops that has almost everything. We don't have the Best Buy particular store but something similar, but I guess it can still be counted the same. I go into these kinds of stores and look at the latest technology has to offer, but I haven't thought about checking for any crypto-related stuff. I would assume that if they ever adopt it and sell it locally, the salesman should be knowledgable enough to explain what it could do for them. Accepting it to these kinds of stores would likely increase in popularity, and I would also think that they would accept cryptocurrency too.

Some people resell hardware wallets, crypto merchandise, etc. I don't think it still counts when it should. And I think everyone must accept this kind of technology first and understand it totally before it becomes a reality. I hope we reach this time where everyone would be taking it and making a real mainstream adoption with crypto. 

[dothebeats]

-snip-

Two questions:  Are there any places that sell hardware wallets (or anything related)?  And if not, do you think we're ever going to get to the point where this is a reality?

I have been going around places in HK, Macau, Canada and the US but giant retail stores such as WalMart, Target, Costco and the likes don't really bother selling these type of devices to the masses. They are more focused on gadgets against skimming devices on credit cards and any other objects that may contain financial data, and that's understandable because the market for such is huge compared to hardware wallets. Hardware wallet producers can set up shop actually, but seeing that most people would prefer buying online instead of walking to a physical shop and snatching one, it definitely makes sense that they haven't have a physical store yet. Not to mention that those who would be needing such would probably be too cozy in hiding their identity, so visiting a shop and buying a hardware wallet kinda defeats the purpose of hiding your crypto holding and being anonymous if someone sees you buying that kind of device.

I mean, why would someone buy a hardware wallet if they aren't going to use it?

[Pmalek]

...so visiting a shop and buying a hardware wallet kinda defeats the purpose of hiding your crypto holding and being anonymous if someone sees you buying that kind of device.

I mean, why would someone buy a hardware wallet if they aren't going to use it?

True, but the same could be said for those buying a safe or opening safe deposit boxes at a bank but there is still a market for that.
You wouldn't need a safe if you don't have important items that you are planning to keep in it.

[Tibu]

I think the most problem of the mass adoption is the easy use of such things (here : the hardware wallet).
Using safes, leather wallets ot coin wrappers is something easy, isn'it !?

The hardware wallet mass adoption will come when :
- the price of such hardware will go donw - people won't buy a 90$ things easily.
- the ease of use will be improved - people want somehting they can just plug and use directly.

And last but not least : - when you will be able to sell hardware wallet that already include some crypto-coins inside.
(I remember Casascius or Lealana having trouble while pre-funding coins).

My point of view of course

[Rath_]

- the price of such hardware will go donw - people won't buy a 90$ things easily.

$90 is not that much for a device which can protect millions of dollars worth of coins. Keep in mind that the price also includes support and updates for years. Banks also have their account fees which add up over years.

- the ease of use will be improved - people want somehting they can just plug and use directly.

That's exactly what they are. The setup in not difficult as long as you can read. Trezor even allows users to postpone seed backup and PIN setup. Don't expect to be able to use this kind of wallets for shop payments (NFC). They are not designed for this.

And last but not least : - when you will be able to sell hardware wallet that already include some crypto-coins inside.

Hell no. Selling wallets with pregenerated private keys is the worst thing companies can do.

[Lucius]

- the price of such hardware will go donw - people won't buy a 90$ things easily

I do not understand why some persistently repeat that hardware wallets cost around $100, when in reality their price is actually lower, in some cases half of that amount. US customers can buy Ledger Nano S from Walmart for only $51, and in EU price is around $65. Every year we have a big discounts on hardware wallets (up to 50%), so almost anyone can invest $35 or something like that in coin security.

- the ease of use will be improved - people want somehting they can just plug and use directly.

We need some user interface to use any wallet, why you see a problem in the fact that such software need to be installed? In case of Ledger, you need Ledger Live or Electrum, and it takes less than 5 min to set up any of them.

[Pmalek]

The hardware wallet mass adoption will come when :
- the price of such hardware will go donw - people won't buy a 90$ things easily.

The Ledger Nano S is only $59 so it is not really that expensive and for most people the Nano S is perfectly fine.
Ledger also has a so called backup plan where you can buy both the Nano X and Nano S for $149 which means you save an additional $29 when you purchase both wallets. Find someone who needs the Nano X and get yourself a Nano S or vice verse, agree on the price and there you go.

Hardware wallet manufacturers also have great deals for Black Friday, Christmas and other anniversaries where you can save up to 50% on your purchase.

[NeuroticFish]

Are there any places that sell hardware wallets (or anything related)?  And if not, do you think we're ever going to get to the point where this is a reality?

I've never seen hardware wallets in physical stores and I expect that won't happen too quick.
Especially the physical stores, which usually pay rent for the space they use, they'll show there the products they expect to sell more. Even if, by chance, they'd have hardware wallets, they won't sell much and they'll stop using space with them.

Why won't sell much? The ones that are here on Bitcointalk will buy it cheaper from the manufacturer. Many from the rest will either not know what's that (and what's that for) either too scared/paranoid to buy from 3rd party (no matter the reasons are good or not).


But there's something else, that could help in advertising. One of the biggest online shops in my country brings new categories of items every Black Friday (and sometimes those categories only for that one day). They had gold, they had cars.. this is a big advertising and maybe one day I'll see there hardware wallets. Maybe other shops in bigger countries have similar approach, I don't know; if there are such shops, maybe the hardware wallet manufacturers can approach them; it would be interesting...

[Tibu]

Hell no. Selling wallets with pregenerated private keys is the worst thing companies can do.

Yeah, I agree on the key generation part but this could lead to a crypto mass adoption and thus hardware wallet adoption.
As we have to trust Exchanges, maybe we can trust a well known company ? But I'm 100% with you when it comes to say : not your keys, not your coins !

[Tibu]

I do not understand why some persistently repeat that hardware wallets cost around $100, when in reality their price is actually lower, in some cases half of that amount. US customers can buy Ledger Nano S from Walmart for only $51, and in EU price is around $65. Every year we have a big discounts on hardware wallets (up to 50%), so almost anyone can invest $35 or something like that in coin security.

Can someone know what's the cheapest hardware wallet (real one, not a cold storage one) on the market ? (My question is business oriented as I'm part of a hardware wallet startup). 

- the ease of use will be improved - people want somehting they can just plug and use directly.

We need some user interface to use any wallet, why you see a problem in the fact that such software need to be installed? In case of Ledger, you need Ledger Live or Electrum, and it takes less than 5 min to set up any of them.

Electrum is a must have because it's open source and backed by a great and active community 

[hugeblack]

The real adoption is the opening of official stores for companies that manufacture these devices and then the multiplicity of agents trusted by those official stores. This will reduce shipping fees.
If transaction fees fall and the price stabilizes, people will treat BTC as a currency for everyday use, so they don't need to spend more money on high security.
It costs almost $ 80 in my country.

[Rath_]

As we have to trust Exchanges, maybe we can trust a well known company ? But I'm 100% with you when it comes to say : not your keys, not your coins !

I don't think that trusted companies like Trezor and Ledger would bother to do such a thing and earn a little on comission. Trezor introduced Trezor Buy which helps less experienced users to choose a good exchange to buy Bitcoin from. It's even easier to exchange coins thanks to the integration with major swap platforms.

Can someone know what's the cheapest hardware wallet (real one, not a cold storage one) on the market ? (My question is business oriented as I'm part of a hardware wallet startup).  

Ledger HW.1 is the cheapest one, but it's no longer supported. I have seen Ledger rep on Reddit giving a discount on Nano S for users who still haven't upgraded from the HW.1. In Europe, Archos Safe-t mini seems to be the cheapest hardware wallet with built-in screen. It's basically a Trezor One in a different chassis.