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The number of gaming/betting/gambling websites citing they are Provably Fair is evident for all to see but how many can actually demonstrably be provably fair but at the same time are also run by people that could manipulate the system?

There are definitely people out there that would scam given the slightest opportunity so in essence if it is possible for the site owner to know the result in advance then the system is open to abuse and fraud.

How many people here are happy to trust Provably Fair gaming/betting/gambling websites?

For those that use those websites, does that trust diminish based on whether the site owner has a shady history?

First, move this to Gambling Discussion since Gambling board for the official casino threads only.

Now, You'll notice that those sites have a link to their "Provably fair" article/explanation (if there's none, stay away from that casino)
From there, you'll see the "Server SEED hash" (encrypted server SEED), "Client SEED" (which you can edit)
and Nonce (just based from your number of rolls/bet).
Using those, you can find if your Roll for (example) was really a random result and not pre-defined by the casino
even without using the casino's own "roll verifier".

Just verifying if the Server SEED hash is really the hash of the Server SEED is enough to tell if the casino isn't lying:

• If you want to test, Get the Server SEED hash before your roll:
  ex: (from a casino that uses SHA256 for the server seed): a047cb939a362212ca36dd9ba5905ce5c8bb97c3f502d01309128f837e4cdea6
  then Roll the dice.
• Get the Server SEED (unencryptedunhashed) from that particular roll in the result link
  ex: ff8f0a8402fdd878b6e1d52f0eabd45f8bc3a817c55d206008729aa33e9c7d15
• Paste the server seed here: sha256-generator (https://www.freeformatter.com/sha256-generator.html) since the casino uses SHA256 to encrypt the server seed.
• The result should be the same as the server seed hash, if not, it's a scam casino.

You can also use the same website (pick the correct tool) to reproduce your roll result by using the Server SEED and your client SEED and other calculators given that you know the site's formula on computing each roll.
(normally, the formula is included in their provably fair link)

Casino gambling games in the development of the world and the internet is very fast and growing rapidly at this time, of course many online casino sites, which offer fair games without being cheated, but behind it all, if you are not careful now there are so many online casino sites that are fraudulent and unfair in games.

The more interested in online casino, the more online casino sites are provided, of course not all online casino gambling sites can be said to be fair.
The thing to watch out for is,
Nowadays there are many casino gambling sites that cheat using robots to manipulate players to victory.

In my experience, there are some characteristics of online gambling sites that have a fair trustworthy character in the game, it does not exist on fraudulent/fake sites.

For example:
[1]. You can see online casino gambling sites that have been "Operating for a long time" at least 3 to 5 years, the longer the game the more confident people are of the site.
[2]. This is very necessary in the "Best Bandar" gambling game. Do not want to cheat and do not want to cooperate with fake gambling site, The best bandar always takes good care of his claims.
There are some bandar the best at the moment.
Example:
"Evolution Gaming, M88, Sbobet casino, OG, Golden Deluxe, Evolution Gaming, and of course there are many more that can be trusted and fair".

[3]. And one more thing, the casino site must have a good name and also have some original reviews, for fake or fraudulent sites it certainly doesn't have a review that can't be trusted.

But now many casino sites claim to be fair, on the contrary it is even unfair alias con artists, with that you are more careful in choosing online casino games that exist today.

Thank you for the post.

I was referring to the fact that the site operator is in control of the server-seed or if the site owner knows he is capable of knowing results in advance then even if the site is "provably fair" it is not "provably scam free" as the possibility to defraud is there.

Sure, if users are happy to trust the site operator then that is for them but to absolutely dismiss the notion of "provably fair" equating to "scam free" is something that should cause some degree of concern.

Precisely for users of online casino gambling sites, most of them don't pay attention to any of that, (worries). "The important thing is gambling addicts can profit once or twice, then complain and scream money is not paid for scam gambling sites".

not consider what happens to come, not a few complaints that come to this forum with various accusations ranging from scams to runaway assets of participants who play online gambling.

So, I hope for heavy gambling addicts, consider, be careful before doing and playing online casino gambling sites. Ask, investigate the website, find out whether the official online gambling site or not, it's better for you.

I think with a topic created by @JollyGood, it can become an afterthought for gambling addicts.

Whether if it's new or old time-tested casino,
If the result from my post above (#2) was correct for every bet, then the site that cited that they are "provably fair" is really scam free.

Why? [1] If the Server SEED Hash which was given to the client in advance, was really the hash of the Server SEED,
then it means that they didn't changed it, thus they didn't tamper with the result(s).
Although investigators need to check each bet because each have different set of server seeds.

[2] The player can change the Client SEED to his liking which will alter the result,
but the player can't cheat the casino either since the Server SEED was "encrypted" (not really encrypted but hashed) before he make the roll.
That's the reason why it was encrypted at first, but it's verifiable if it's really the hash of the Server Seed for that bet using any SHA256 hash tool.

It's a red flag if a casino doesn't provide the encrypted server seed for the next roll/bet in advance, or the bet's revealed non-encrypted server seed didn't matched to the previous hashed server seed (plus the ones I've mentioned above).

From what I know is that the client seed is randomly generated by your browser. Whenever you change your browser, you can see that the client seed is also changing. And the client seed can be adjusted by you before you start rolling. So there is no chance that the site operator knows about your client seed in advance.

Thank you for your post.

If having the server seed in advance of having the client seed (and that being verified) to strengthen the case gives belief to a player/user/client that it is demonstrably provably fair that basically means winners were not changed and the results were not tampered with but if the code of the dice roulette or other games is set to effectively shift the odds in favour of the site owner through any form of algorithm or hard-coding then that provably fair label is not completely appropriate.

If a site owner wants to commit fraud and scam, they will find a way whilst still claiming to be provably fair. Would you agree with my argument or would you say that having a client seed in advance negates and trumps (no pun intended) all other concerns and it equates to "provably scam free"?

The whole point of provably fair is that it is exactly that—provably fair. If it wasn't provable, then it wouldn't fit its own definition.

There have been attempts to crack the RNG that is associated with many provably fair systems, however, I don't think this has ever been successful.

With that said, there are always people who claim that provably fair isn't enough, since the site could just swap the client or server seed before you check. This is why you should only play at reputable casinos, since you still need an element of trust with most provable fairness methods.

Agreed. I never thought anything else.

In your opinion, does "provably fair" equates to "provably scam free"?

You might just request bot developers to implement this feature for batch checking of the results, i.e: Log server seed hash and client seed of current bet, log previous server seed, hash and client seed before placing next bet (few sites return this data), keep logging it to a local database (doesn't need the checking thing on every bet) the bot users have their own decision to check in batch in which the bot read saved data in local database and check it all, it might helpful to find out if those "provably fair" claimed casinos did something bad or not.

This story I remember isnt a casino but it is popular gambling involving digital items, its an old story of scamming that involved the system mentioned by OP.    People might want to take a further look to how this can be exploited, it was a while ago but a big scam involving over a million viewers and potential customers hence why he and his partners were trying to promote his site.   He was in fact scamming his audience by getting inside information giving himself an advantage over other players for profit.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-07-20-one-of-the-biggest-twitch-streamers-bites-the-dust-as-valves-cs-go-gambling-crackdown-continues
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyWb7x3I5Yg
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36824689

People have died over issues related to this, I wont go into details as its not especially pleasant but I agree there is no absolute perfect system not involving some trust.

i fully trust those gambling site that has a provably fair system on it but only if i recognize the site , like for example the sites that we have right now ex. bitvest  , freebit  , 777coin , primedice and so on  ....  but i think wont trust a gambing site that i dont know even if they say that they have a provably fair system  .  its still a gambling because we can win or loose even if the site have these so called system so better if we dont foccus on them because we will only feel angry if we loose .

So it is still possible that casinos are still lying for example, there are 2 out of 10 that are fake SEEDS they generated for a user?
Because I tried some gambling website which you can re-generate your seed anytime, but the problem here is how about those user who didn't even bother try to verified their seed anymore because on the first, second generated seeds are all fine and verified.

Yes if the [1]  Server seed hash was given in advance in every bet (check the casino's provably fair link for "Seeds for your next roll" or something similar). and if you can confirm it using the instructions in my previous posts.

But there's no guarantee that the casino will be honest with every bet specially for Auto Betting where the gambler wont have any opportunity to check the server seed hash & change his client seed before every bet.
But again, if the gambler is betting like a responsible member of society, he will have the chance to confirm each bet, thus, making "provably fair" notion equal to "provably scam free".

[1] The one that's being sent by the server to the client in advance is the Server Seed Hash.
The Client Seed was randomly generated through the browser or through a script.

@GreatArkansas Read this post's second paragraph...
Yes, but I think casinos won't take the risk of doing something like that unless they are a scammer to begin with
because if they do, the chance that they will get caught in the first day alone is too high.

Sorry to read about the sad aspect to the background you provided, they are sad stories indeed.

Regarding there being no perfect system not involving trust, that was my point exactly and furthermore it opens the process up to scam for those that want to.

In my opinion "provably fair" does not equate to "provably scam free" yet websites promote "provably fair" as though it is the best thing to hit crypto gambling.

Only portion of users will not verify seed, but not with most other users. Surely there are some users who will verify each seed so they will find if there is scam on the site. So if some of these users don't want to bother verifying seeds, then they only need to monitor the reputation of the site they use.

I think similar question has been asked many times. Some people gave some interesting and useful answers... The ones I found most interesting is the use of good sites that offer provable fair verification service. I wonder how reliable and trustworthy such services are. I guess it could work better as decentralized service

I trust the Provably Fair gaming/betting/gambling websites, especially if the gambling website has a legit status because they won't cheat their members because of money. They know that they don't have to cheat because they need the members and they will give the best services to their members. But that is not always guaranteed because we don't know what will happen with the gambling site, but I am okay with that.

This topic have been discussed more than enough even on the platform. Verifying whether is site is provably fair or not is actually left to those who take their time in checking it. More than once I have visited site where I can verify but there is a mathematical equation to support it though. The concern for me is who checks after the first time it has been verified that the site is still compliant in ensuring the right thing is done. I have seen companies fined for things they have done in the past because someone went back to check whether they did what they claimed they were doing at the time but in crypto once a saint is forever one and the moment someone checked and discovered the anomaly, its quick to be regarded as a bug that needs to be fixed.

To be honest, I'm not good in auditing the system they are using if its provably fair or not, what I do to ensure that I'm betting at the right website where they will not scam gamblers, is I choose a gambling site with good reputation.

Thus far, I also have some good moments in gambling although it cannot be denied that I'm losing if I based on my overall performance.
If other gamblers are willing to risk their 1 whole BTC in a gambling site, then I think I would have to trust that site and I'm happy with the site I'm currently playing with now.

In fact there is no need for casino to cheat. 1-3% from gambling volume is more than enough. Key is to increase gambling volume by investing in advertise and increasing service quality instead of loosing client by being caught cheating.
And catching cheating casinos is quite easy as nc50lc explained.

Thread about Provably Fair system from 2013 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=161236.0

What if the only provably fair part of the website is the seed which shows there was no tampering BUT the code the games are created and coded on have been fixed disproportionately in favour of the website owner such as: 1 user win @ ratio to 100 user losses... or 1 user win @ ratio to 1000 user losses?

Would you still be happy knowing that information is advance even though the website claimed to be provably fair simply because it provided the server seed in advance?

In my opinion "provably fair" does not equate to "provably scam free"

I don't know if i understand you correct. I'm at the moment of increasing my awareness of how this system works and to my knowledge data on the server does not include "win, loss,win, loss" but "red, black, red, black". So if you put "red" and loss and decide to check if casino did not cheat and you see that output from your game should be "black" you know that they did not cheat. There is no way to set it to the ratio of 1 win per 1000 loss.

Thank you for the post.

I am saying that if a website claims it is "provably fair" is means they provide the server seed in advance of the bet being placed and that can be checked to confirm if the win or loss result differs from what the seed shows therefore it is called Provably Fair - I agree.

I am further saying that just because a website claims to be "Provably Fair" does not make it "Provably Scam Free". Just because a server seed can be checked does not mean a website cannot be coded to alter odds in favour of the website operator. If a website was provably fair and was set up to ensure (as extreme as this example might seem), a user never won then it was provably fair but was also a scam.

Is "Provably Fair" a seal of approval that automatically states "Provably Scam Free"? No

But after hashing Serverseed unhashed code and client-seed you get 100% random number out of which you can calculate outcome of your bet - for example:

"
Calculated outcome (from hashing serwerseed and client seed) :
aa671aad5e4565ebffb8dc5c185e4df1ae6d9aca2578b5c03ec9c7750f881922276d8044e5e3d84f158c e411f667e224e9b0c1ac50fc94e9c5eb883a678f6ca2
https://dicesites.com/images/provablyfair/decimal.png
If this number is over 999,999 than the next 5 characters (aad5e) would be used. But in our case it's 697,969 so this will be used. Now you only have to apply a modulus of 10^4 and divide it by 100. You can do this just on Google by typing:

697969%(10000)/100
The final result is:

79.69
"
Source (https://dicesites.com/provably-fair)

And outcome is not "win" or "loss" that could be set for owner advance. Its random number that was winning number for your game. I don't know how to set it by casino to be sure to win if i'm sure that outcome of my game is provably fair random number.

Agree. But as i said. They can cheat but it will be easy to proof.

Yes, there is way to cheat, ie. you bet low and number is 0.49 and the win target is 0.50 thus you would win, but there is the case that they can void it by sending back a HTTP 404, thus forcing you to bet again, which normally the dice bot will change the client seed then it would cause a different result next time.

I don't think it's that easy to prove scams casino mate. To avoid scams, users must record their server seed hash, client seed, and nonce and then verify all their bets once server seed changed (revealed).

If you only do several bets using a particular server seed, it shouldn't be a problem. However, users often made automatic bets that can generate thousands of data. IMO most of the time, they won't have the time and willingness to verify each bet. Plus, the bet records won't be kept forever.

I think scam casinos still use "provably fair" system, but changed it once in every x bets. This way, casual users won't notice any difference.

That's why it's a bit safer betting on-chain on gambling dApps since the bet record will be kept forever and there's no way the casino could change it after it's been stored on the blockchain. But still, we assumed that someone would willingly dig into the records and verify it.

Quite simply put, "provably fair" does not equate to "provably scam free".

It will be interesting to see the number of gaming sites being exposed years down the line on how they scammed users by claiming to be provably fair.

Blockchain results are fair as being explained by Casino. The one thing that is always to be put in mind here is that casinos always win no matter what and in order to win, they must have done something. Has there been a casino that swapped its client/server seed before checking whether their casino is provably fair? 

Yes it is true that casino is provably fair and always win that's why gamblers will think that it's not. Beating the house seems impossible to accomplish. One thing is that gamblers won't also read the terms and condition and only think about winning or earning which is a problem for them and complain to casino owners that it's a scam.

Would you, as casino owner, risk x (lets say 10 000) active gamblers to cheat once per n bets to make it unnoticeable? You are earning constant profit due to statistic advantage. You don't need to cheat to earn. You are risking your brand and all active gamblers in case you have bad luck and someone will check the one bet out of n that you cheated. You don't need that. You are earning 100k daily. You would not risk that to earn 101k. At least i would not :) I would do my best to show everyone that i'm the most trusted casino with "proof of everything" and to spread the info about my brand everywhere - that's how you become rich having online casino. Not by cheating once per n bets.


This might work. But do it twice to me and i'll go to another casino. You lost gambler to win 2 bets. Sooner or later you would get it without cheating and without loosing a gamber (or few gambers - black PR) due to statistic advantage.

No, no, don't be too subjective. It shouldn't be about me (or one particular person) or my personal view. We are talking about "how provable is it?" It's provable as long as there are users who care to verify their own bets.

It's dangerous to assume all casinos would do the "honest way" since this assumption incentivize evil casino to scam honest people.

Agree.

Having 3 keys makes you 100% sure that you get random fair number. If you did not you are 100% sure that you were cheated and you have strong proof. 99% people are not checking every bet (point for you) but big casino (not shady small one) with bunch of active gamblers and "provably fair system" won't risk its brand in case this 1 % will check it and find 1 cheated bet. Cheating is profitable when you have nothing to lose. that's why newbie will try to get 0,1 BTC non collateral loan. Not safe-made legendary member who is making 0,12 BTC monthly in chipmixer campaign.


Agree. Small shady casinos are unworth to try even if they are "Provably Fair"

If casual users can get scammed then it means any user can get scammed.

I am in absolutely no doubt if casinos want to scam users while displaying "provably fair" on their website, they will.

forget the provably fair shit. i have had the opportunity to run a casino with somone else. provably fair doesnt mean they cant scam u.
what provably fair means is that when the numbers are fixed and u verify it u will see the required result. the numbers are not predetermined as they make you fell. that is why u notice that once you bet big, you start get very off results

I think you wasn't key employee (or at least tech one) or it was small shady casino that does not care about its reputation. If they give you server seed and client seed every bet is calculated based on those numbers. They are not predetermined as you said. They are calculated each time you bet. But 2 + 2 is always  = 4. No matter who calculates it and when.

Here I show how it's being calculated on one of casinos:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5235045.msg54086701#msg54086701

There is no way to cheat in undetected way when you have provably-fair mechanism and someone checked the bet that you cheated on.

In conclusion
1- can casino cheat with provably-fair mechanism? YES
2- is it possible to hide it when someone check every bet? NO
3- is cheating on players risky for casino reputation? YES
4- are 99.9% of bets not checked, especially on auto bet? YES
5- is it tempting to cheat for casino because of that? YES
6- is risk of getting busted higher than expected profit? MOSTLY YES (not on small shady casinos without reputation)
7- is cheating when "once you bet big, you start get very off results" riskier for casino? YES, because you will check those bets more likely.

betting big does not decrease the chances of your winning but the game is still the same although many gamblers mistaken it as always , calling the site  rigged when they start to bet big  because they not hitting thier multiplier .

 it does not mean scam but provably fair sites do plays a big role when opening a gambling site because gamblers look for it .   laslty , you dig up an old thread  . didnt you read the date on the first page before you post.

1.) I trust only top sites and top businesses. Their business is too big to risk reputation.
2.) The second point is a direct continuation of the first - if the site has a shady history, then no matter how good it is, then I do not use it.