"Provably Fair": How Fair & Provable is it?

[Finestream]

To be honest, I'm not good in auditing the system they are using if its provably fair or not, what I do to ensure that I'm betting at the right website where they will not scam gamblers, is I choose a gambling site with good reputation.

Thus far, I also have some good moments in gambling although it cannot be denied that I'm losing if I based on my overall performance.
If other gamblers are willing to risk their 1 whole BTC in a gambling site, then I think I would have to trust that site and I'm happy with the site I'm currently playing with now.

[Tytanowy Janusz]

In fact there is no need for casino to cheat. 1-3% from gambling volume is more than enough. Key is to increase gambling volume by investing in advertise and increasing service quality instead of loosing client by being caught cheating.
And catching cheating casinos is quite easy as nc50lc explained.

Thread about Provably Fair system from 2013 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=161236.0

[JollyGood]

i fully trust those gambling site that has a provably fair system on it but only if i recognize the site , like for example the sites that we have right now ex. bitvest  , freebit  , 777coin , primedice and so on  ....  but i think wont trust a gambing site that i dont know even if they say that they have a provably fair system  .  its still a gambling because we can win or loose even if the site have these so called system so better if we dont foccus on them because we will only feel angry if we loose .

What if the only provably fair part of the website is the seed which shows there was no tampering BUT the code the games are created and coded on have been fixed disproportionately in favour of the website owner such as: 1 user win @ ratio to 100 user losses... or 1 user win @ ratio to 1000 user losses?

Would you still be happy knowing that information is advance even though the website claimed to be provably fair simply because it provided the server seed in advance?

In my opinion "provably fair" does not equate to "provably scam free"

[Tytanowy Janusz]

What if the only provably fair part of the website is the seed which shows there was no tampering BUT the code the games are created and coded on have been fixed disproportionately in favour of the website owner such as: 1 user win @ ratio to 100 user losses... or 1 user win @ ratio to 1000 user losses?

Would you still be happy knowing that information is advance even though the website claimed to be provably fair simply because it provided the server seed in advance?

In my opinion "provably fair" does not equate to "provably scam free"

I don't know if i understand you correct. I'm at the moment of increasing my awareness of how this system works and to my knowledge data on the server does not include "win, loss,win, loss" but "red, black, red, black". So if you put "red" and loss and decide to check if casino did not cheat and you see that output from your game should be "black" you know that they did not cheat. There is no way to set it to the ratio of 1 win per 1000 loss.

[JollyGood]

What if the only provably fair part of the website is the seed which shows there was no tampering BUT the code the games are created and coded on have been fixed disproportionately in favour of the website owner such as: 1 user win @ ratio to 100 user losses... or 1 user win @ ratio to 1000 user losses?

Would you still be happy knowing that information is advance even though the website claimed to be provably fair simply because it provided the server seed in advance?

In my opinion "provably fair" does not equate to "provably scam free"

I don't know if i understand you correct. I'm at the moment of increasing my awareness of how this system works and to my knowledge data on the server does not include "win, loss,win, loss" but "red, black, red, black". So if you put "red" and loss and decide to check if casino did not cheat and you see that output from your game should be "black" you know that they did not cheat.

Thank you for the post.

I am saying that if a website claims it is "provably fair" is means they provide the server seed in advance of the bet being placed and that can be checked to confirm if the win or loss result differs from what the seed shows therefore it is called Provably Fair - I agree.

I am further saying that just because a website claims to be "Provably Fair" does not make it "Provably Scam Free". Just because a server seed can be checked does not mean a website cannot be coded to alter odds in favour of the website operator. If a website was provably fair and was set up to ensure (as extreme as this example might seem), a user never won then it was provably fair but was also a scam.

Is "Provably Fair" a seal of approval that automatically states "Provably Scam Free"? No

[Tytanowy Janusz]

I am saying that if a website claims it is "provably fair" is means they provide the server seed in advance of the bet being placed and that can be checked to confirm if the win or loss result differs from what the seed shows therefore it is called Provably Fair - I agree.

Just because a server seed can be checked does not mean a website cannot be coded to alter odds in favour of the website operator.

But after hashing Serverseed unhashed code and client-seed you get 100% random number out of which you can calculate outcome of your bet - for example:

"
Calculated outcome (from hashing serwerseed and client seed) :
aa671aad5e4565ebffb8dc5c185e4df1ae6d9aca2578b5c03ec9c7750f881922276d8044e5e3d84f158c e411f667e224e9b0c1ac50fc94e9c5eb883a678f6ca2

If this number is over 999,999 than the next 5 characters (aad5e) would be used. But in our case it's 697,969 so this will be used. Now you only have to apply a modulus of 10^4 and divide it by 100. You can do this just on Google by typing:

697969%(10000)/100
The final result is:

79.69
"
Source

And outcome is not "win" or "loss" that could be set for owner advance. Its random number that was winning number for your game. I don't know how to set it by casino to be sure to win if i'm sure that outcome of my game is provably fair random number.

Is "Provably Fair" a seal of approval that automatically states "Provably Scam Free"? No

Agree. But as i said. They can cheat but it will be easy to proof.

[docthusinh]

And outcome is not "win" or "loss" that could be set for owner advance. Its random number that was winning number for your game. I don't know how to set it by casino to be sure to win if i'm sure that outcome of my game is provably fair random number.

Yes, there is way to cheat, ie. you bet low and number is 0.49 and the win target is 0.50 thus you would win, but there is the case that they can void it by sending back a HTTP 404, thus forcing you to bet again, which normally the dice bot will change the client seed then it would cause a different result next time.

[mu_enrico]

I don't think it's that easy to prove scams casino mate. To avoid scams, users must record their server seed hash, client seed, and nonce and then verify all their bets once server seed changed (revealed).

If you only do several bets using a particular server seed, it shouldn't be a problem. However, users often made automatic bets that can generate thousands of data. IMO most of the time, they won't have the time and willingness to verify each bet. Plus, the bet records won't be kept forever.

I think scam casinos still use "provably fair" system, but changed it once in every x bets. This way, casual users won't notice any difference.

That's why it's a bit safer betting on-chain on gambling dApps since the bet record will be kept forever and there's no way the casino could change it after it's been stored on the blockchain. But still, we assumed that someone would willingly dig into the records and verify it.

[JollyGood]

And outcome is not "win" or "loss" that could be set for owner advance. Its random number that was winning number for your game. I don't know how to set it by casino to be sure to win if i'm sure that outcome of my game is provably fair random number.

Yes, there is way to cheat, ie. you bet low and number is 0.49 and the win target is 0.50 thus you would win, but there is the case that they can void it by sending back a HTTP 404, thus forcing you to bet again, which normally the dice bot will change the client seed then it would cause a different result next time.

Quite simply put, "provably fair" does not equate to "provably scam free".

It will be interesting to see the number of gaming sites being exposed years down the line on how they scammed users by claiming to be provably fair.

[target]

Blockchain results are fair as being explained by Casino. The one thing that is always to be put in mind here is that casinos always win no matter what and in order to win, they must have done something. Has there been a casino that swapped its client/server seed before checking whether their casino is provably fair? 

[nakamura12]

Blockchain results are fair as being explained by Casino. The one thing that is always to be put in mind here is that casinos always win no matter what and in order to win, they must have done something. Has there been a casino that swapped its client/server seed before checking whether their casino is provably fair? 

Yes it is true that casino is provably fair and always win that's why gamblers will think that it's not. Beating the house seems impossible to accomplish. One thing is that gamblers won't also read the terms and condition and only think about winning or earning which is a problem for them and complain to casino owners that it's a scam.

[Tytanowy Janusz]

I don't think it's that easy to prove scams casino mate. To avoid scams, users must record their server seed hash, client seed, and nonce and then verify all their bets once server seed changed (revealed).

If you only do several bets using a particular server seed, it shouldn't be a problem. However, users often made automatic bets that can generate thousands of data. IMO most of the time, they won't have the time and willingness to verify each bet. Plus, the bet records won't be kept forever.

I think scam casinos still use "provably fair" system, but changed it once in every x bets. This way, casual users won't notice any difference.

That's why it's a bit safer betting on-chain on gambling dApps since the bet record will be kept forever and there's no way the casino could change it after it's been stored on the blockchain. But still, we assumed that someone would willingly dig into the records and verify it.

Would you, as casino owner, risk x (lets say 10 000) active gamblers to cheat once per n bets to make it unnoticeable? You are earning constant profit due to statistic advantage. You don't need to cheat to earn. You are risking your brand and all active gamblers in case you have bad luck and someone will check the one bet out of n that you cheated. You don't need that. You are earning 100k daily. You would not risk that to earn 101k. At least i would not I would do my best to show everyone that i'm the most trusted casino with "proof of everything" and to spread the info about my brand everywhere - that's how you become rich having online casino. Not by cheating once per n bets.

Yes, there is way to cheat, ie. you bet low and number is 0.49 and the win target is 0.50 thus you would win, but there is the case that they can void it by sending back a HTTP 404, thus forcing you to bet again, which normally the dice bot will change the client seed then it would cause a different result next time.

This might work. But do it twice to me and i'll go to another casino. You lost gambler to win 2 bets. Sooner or later you would get it without cheating and without loosing a gamber (or few gambers - black PR) due to statistic advantage.

[mu_enrico]

Would you, as casino owner

No, no, don't be too subjective. It shouldn't be about me (or one particular person) or my personal view. We are talking about "how provable is it?" It's provable as long as there are users who care to verify their own bets.

It's dangerous to assume all casinos would do the "honest way" since this assumption incentivize evil casino to scam honest people.

[Tytanowy Janusz]

No, no, don't be too subjective. It shouldn't be about me (or one particular person) or my personal view.

Agree.

We are talking about "how provable is it?" It's provable as long as there are users who care to verify their own bets.

Having 3 keys makes you 100% sure that you get random fair number. If you did not you are 100% sure that you were cheated and you have strong proof. 99% people are not checking every bet (point for you) but big casino (not shady small one) with bunch of active gamblers and "provably fair system" won't risk its brand in case this 1 % will check it and find 1 cheated bet. Cheating is profitable when you have nothing to lose. that's why newbie will try to get 0,1 BTC non collateral loan. Not safe-made legendary member who is making 0,12 BTC monthly in chipmixer campaign.

It's dangerous to assume all casinos would do the "honest way" since this assumption incentivize evil casino to scam honest people.

Agree. Small shady casinos are unworth to try even if they are "Provably Fair"

[JollyGood]

I don't think it's that easy to prove scams casino mate. To avoid scams, users must record their server seed hash, client seed, and nonce and then verify all their bets once server seed changed (revealed).

If you only do several bets using a particular server seed, it shouldn't be a problem. However, users often made automatic bets that can generate thousands of data. IMO most of the time, they won't have the time and willingness to verify each bet. Plus, the bet records won't be kept forever.

I think scam casinos still use "provably fair" system, but changed it once in every x bets. This way, casual users won't notice any difference.

That's why it's a bit safer betting on-chain on gambling dApps since the bet record will be kept forever and there's no way the casino could change it after it's been stored on the blockchain. But still, we assumed that someone would willingly dig into the records and verify it.

If casual users can get scammed then it means any user can get scammed.

I am in absolutely no doubt if casinos want to scam users while displaying "provably fair" on their website, they will.

[RichGang]

forget the provably fair shit. i have had the opportunity to run a casino with somone else. provably fair doesnt mean they cant scam u.
what provably fair means is that when the numbers are fixed and u verify it u will see the required result. the numbers are not predetermined as they make you fell. that is why u notice that once you bet big, you start get very off results

[Tytanowy Janusz]

forget the provably fair shit. i have had the opportunity to run a casino with somone else. provably fair doesnt mean they cant scam u.
what provably fair means is that when the numbers are fixed and u verify it u will see the required result. the numbers are not predetermined as they make you fell. that is why u notice that once you bet big, you start get very off results

I think you wasn't key employee (or at least tech one) or it was small shady casino that does not care about its reputation. If they give you server seed and client seed every bet is calculated based on those numbers. They are not predetermined as you said. They are calculated each time you bet. But 2 + 2 is always  = 4. No matter who calculates it and when.

Here I show how it's being calculated on one of casinos:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5235045.msg54086701#msg54086701

There is no way to cheat in undetected way when you have provably-fair mechanism and someone checked the bet that you cheated on.

In conclusion
1- can casino cheat with provably-fair mechanism? YES
2- is it possible to hide it when someone check every bet? NO
3- is cheating on players risky for casino reputation? YES
4- are 99.9% of bets not checked, especially on auto bet? YES
5- is it tempting to cheat for casino because of that? YES
6- is risk of getting busted higher than expected profit? MOSTLY YES (not on small shady casinos without reputation)
7- is cheating when "once you bet big, you start get very off results" riskier for casino? YES, because you will check those bets more likely.

[imstillthebest]

forget the provably fair shit. i have had the opportunity to run a casino with somone else. provably fair doesnt mean they cant scam u.
what provably fair means is that when the numbers are fixed and u verify it u will see the required result. the numbers are not predetermined as they make you fell. that is why u notice that once you bet big, you start get very off results

betting big does not decrease the chances of your winning but the game is still the same although many gamblers mistaken it as always , calling the site  rigged when they start to bet big  because they not hitting thier multiplier .

 it does not mean scam but provably fair sites do plays a big role when opening a gambling site because gamblers look for it .   laslty , you dig up an old thread  . didnt you read the date on the first page before you post.

[KTChampions]

1.) I trust only top sites and top businesses. Their business is too big to risk reputation.
2.) The second point is a direct continuation of the first - if the site has a shady history, then no matter how good it is, then I do not use it.