Bitcoin Forum

Hello Friends,

I'd like to present this as a thought exercise. I am by no means advocating for the overthrow of government. I am looking to start a conversation about how to make congress obsolete, hence the title. Congress will not be regulating the blockchain, the blockchain will be regulating congress. We the people need options cultivated if we are to ask for a change. Congress is slow, clunky, wasteful, unrepresentative, and in short soon to be obsolete in its current form. Let me start my argument with a few quotes about social contracts and checks and balances to help define the argument.

The US constitution is a social contract.

http://www.constitution.org/soclcont.htm
The fundamental basis for government and law in this system is the concept of the social contract, according to which human beings begin as individuals in a state of nature, and create a society by establishing a contract whereby they agree to live together in harmony for their mutual benefit, after which they are said to live in a state of society. This contract involves the retaining of certain natural rights, an acceptance of restrictions of certain liberties, the assumption of certain duties, and the pooling of certain powers to be exercised collectively.

The social contract is very simple. It has only two basic terms: (1) mutual defense of rights; and (2) mutual decision by deliberative assembly. There are no agents, no officials, that persist from one deliberative assembly to another. The duties of the social contract are militia. There may be customs that persist from assembly to assembly, such as customs for due notice, parliamentary procedure, judicial due process, and enforcement of court orders by militia. This second term could be called the constitution of society, but it precedes a constitution of government and should not be confused with it.

Checks and Balances

The framers of the U.S. Constitution addressed the problem of avoiding unbalanced or excessive concentrations of power in government by adopting a constitution in which legislative, executive, and judicial powers are largely divided among separate branches, with each having some power to check the abuses of the others. Legislative powers were further divided between two legislative bodies. Some powers were delegated to the central national government, which others were reserved to the component states or the people.

Around the end of the 19th century, however, it became increasingly apparent that excessive and unbalanced concentrations of power in the private sector could subvert the system of checks and balances in government, and the first anti-trust laws were passed to try to provide a check on those undue influences. Unfortunately, such legislation has not been entirely effective, and we now face a situation in which to an intolerable degree the real powers of government are being exercised not by constitutional bodies but by secret cabals based in the private sector but extending throughout government, cabals which are increasingly coherent and increasingly abusive of the rights of the people, including the right to have government be accountable to them and not to a power elite.

The continued constitutional development of this society will therefore require the development of a new, more sophisticated system of checks and balances that extends throughout the private sector as well as the public and does not entirely rely on market forces.


What would the US constitution look like if it was built into a blockchain protocol called votecoin or whatever? IE: Build in a social contract into a blockchain based voting system.

1. Congress is unrepresentative of the people
2. The people can be better represented with blockchain techology
3. Only this small unrepresentative group called congress votes; most in congress don't even read bills let alone vote
4  Any registered voter can vote with votecoin.
5 Congress proposes outlandish bills
6 People can also propose outlandish bills

The blockchain can be a way to leverage contracts. If a law were voted on and violated the protocol, ie: the constitution, it would cease to become part of the blockchain. Add in an open source transparent system for extra checks and balances.

We keep the other two branches of gov as they are for now but update congress to the votecoin constitution protocol. Sorry current group but you're all FIRED!

The blockchain is a way to vote on, store, and leverage contracts; No need for congress 1.0.

The Declaration of Independence states:

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness

 Evil Council Of 13 To Rule the USA SUPER CONGRESS We are slaves!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LtyvE5Al8k


why, because you know you wanted a Jones rant.

Maybe bitcoin is the universal currency the New World Order has been pushing for?? Jk

Step one.  Replace fiat with bitcoin.

Everything else will fall into place after that.

I'm not interested in your central authority, although I appreciate the effort, OP.

Governments are done, and so is their monopoly-money.

Please explain what comes next after government.

Step 3 profit!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO5sxLapAts

That would be Ixcoin

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=317658.0

Liberty and justice for all (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLCEXtpTNYU).

        

I wish for world peace!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo8qbkTAts4


They constructed a board with a nail in it, but they won't stop there. They'll construct bigger boards with bigger nails, and then they'll construct a board with a nail in it so large, it will destroy them all...
-Kodos

Do you have one example from the entire history of the entire world of a country or region or territory, where there was no central authority ? Does not have to be like government as we understand it today, but there has always been a group of men with weapons that was in charge everywhere.

I figure that if there is a viable alternative to central authority, that by now it would have succeeded somewhere, it has not.

You guys are like we got a new medicine, it will cure the disease, its great, its fantastic it will bring health, ok, has it ever been tried yet ? uhm no, well how you know it works then ? well uhmm, it works im sure it works its fantastic, yeah fantastic indeed.

Human civilization is still in its infancy. Obviously not all alternatives to central authority have been tried yet.

This is an excellent video that describes what the founding fathers were thinking. I highly recommend everyone watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABhyKEK-CDg

Human history shows WHY a central authority is a horrible horrible thing.

I'd like to point out that American Indians were prob the closest thing to a decentralized civilization and democracy. However even in their system they still went to war with nearby tribes. Central vs decentralized governing styles both can still lead war.

But lets be real here. We have a centralized authority system. That's prob not going to change with out some solutions. Just stating the obvious doesn't help the argument progress. So you don't like central authority, please describe a decentralized authority.

I agree with the intended spirit of the OP's thesis but sadly it got flipped by anarchists playing word games. I'm all for mutual aid societies in the advent of an imminent economic crash yielding federal and local governments incompetent and broke but more than likely we'll have to transition away from the state and Bitcoin will have a nice hand in fostering that move. Also, it's crucial to donate and volunteer for pro-liberty candidates w/ our new found wealth and leisure time as we are going into direct competition against those that we're seeking to de-fang: the interests in the military industrial complex, big pharma, banker gangsters, etc. And, they all heavily donate to incumbent establishment politicians and candidates to further burden us and all the ignorant innocents around us. If we are the visionaries of the future, then we have to take the lead in turning the ship around or bypassing it altogether to make the future brighter for us and those that come our way. We have some really good people in the House and a few good in the Senate, we just need to add to it in the next few election cycles. So to recap, we need to battle the special interests on all fronts including cryptoland, politics, networking and social media.

Regulate in congress (in the United States) is translation for:  "how can we squeeze the smaller players out, and suck up as much money from it as possible"

Chef Ramsey, when is the next season of Masterchef? lol

So far most of the arguments have been along the lines of centralized governments suck but there have been no real alternatives proposed. Our history of civilization has produced such centralized models as tribal (with a leader),  shoguns, emperors, kings, dictators. The original American colonists attempted to create a decentralized hybrid gov. Instead of this one leader with all the power they realized the inevitable truth of the human nature and how easy it is to become corrupt and how hard it is to fight against a corrupt leader so they attempted to split up the power. We all know how that has gone, cause now we have drones.

The one suggestion that hasn't been put forth in this thread is a voluntary form of government. And the only example of this type of leadership I can think of is the rainbow family of living light.

"Some say we're the largest non-organization of non-members in the world. We have no leaders, and no organization. To be honest, the Rainbow Family means different things to different people. I think it's safe to say we're into intentional community building, non-violence, and alternative lifestyles. We also believe that Peace and Love are a great thing, and there isn't enough of that in this world. Many of our traditions are based on Native American traditions, and we have a strong orientation to take care of the the Earth. We gather in the National Forests yearly to pray for peace on this planet."

http://welcomehome.org/

When the earth is ravaged and the animals are dying, a new tribe of people shall come unto the earth from many colors, classes, creeds, and who by their actions and deeds shall make the earth green again. They will be known as the warriors of the Rainbow -- Old Native American Prophecy


So this system of voluntary government exists mostly during a temporary village that is setup for a designated time and place gathering. As was stated, there are no leaders or members, this is a voluntary system. These non-member participants often use words like Babylon, though unfortunately they are still stuck using things like roads and cars and modern food and camping gear, etc as they have to occasionaly step back into the modern world. To get things done in this system, participants meet at what is called "main circle". There might be some hand holding and some OMing. Food from group kitchen camps is passed freely about. And those who have something to say, step into the circle and speak their peace. It might be something like, we need people to dig shitters, or people need to be aware of this or that, or other decisions. Those that wish to participate are free to do so as are people that don't wish to participate.

Some interesting trivia is the rainbow family has been going strong since the 70's

But in all of this I digress.

My original argument was to not come up with ways to replace government with Utopian society but to merely start to tweak the current shitty voting system and  in doing so make the group called the US congress obsolete. Alot of the replies to this argument have been along the lines of why bother cause centralized systems suck.

For those that have forgotten or don't know. The founding fathers recognized the inevitable conclusion of what happens under centralized leadership; in short, tyranny. So they decided to split this power between the legislative, executive, and judicial branches of government. The legislative branch makes the laws, the judicial interprets the laws, and the executive enforces the laws.

In my example from the OP, I ONLY suggest replacing the legislative branch. If congress (a part of the legislative branch) is no longer representative of the US population then why not replace them with a system that is representative of the people. Also, in my example, we leave the other two parts of gov alone for now.

Now I propose not only using a blockchain system for voting, but using it as a means to leverage contracts. I also put forth the proposition that the constitution of the US government is a social contract. So in my layman's terms I also proposed combining a blockchain technology with a social contract and voting.

Now discuss.

I believe that this individual might be on the right track so I decided to paste in his post


"No, I agree that the blockchain is the right technology. It is the most secure way of voting, the amount of computing power using it as a currency makes it about the most secure way to vote in the world.

But the way votes in current government structures are used is ancient (literally). You vote for some people to go represent you and they go on to use that as justification to use a military and police to "morally" steal money from people to "do what you ask of them".

What Bitcoin and the blockchain can do is cut the government middleman. You want a problem solved?
1. You and others who agree that it is a problem pledge some bitcoins toward the problem.
2. People propose solutions to the problem, along with the cost.
3. You and others vote with your pledged bitcoins via the blockchain. If the cost is covered, the proposer gets the bitcoins. Otherwise the money stays with you and the others.
4. The problem is solved, people are not forced to pay for your problem, you get what you want to pay for."


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=516160.msg5778805#msg5778805

http://www.fame.org/HTM/Vieira_Edwin_What_is_a_Dollar_EV-002.HTM

Conclusion

In the light of this history, the present monetary provisions of the United States Code demonstrate that official Washington, D.C., has no conception of what a "dollar" really is. The reason for this self-imposed ignorance is obvious. By reducing the "dollar" to a political abstraction, the national government has empowered itself to engage in limitless debasement (depreciation in purchasing power) of the currency. A "dollar" that contains - and must perforce of the Constitution contain - 371.25 grains of fine silver cannot be reduced in value below the market exchange value of silver for other commodities. A pseudo-"dollar" that contains no fixed amount of any particular substance per "dollar" can be reduced in value infinitely. As debasement of currency amounts to a hidden tax, Congress' silent refusal to recognize the constitutional "dollar" amounts to the usurpation of an unlimited power to tax through manipulation of the monetary system. Thus, modern "money" has become a means for the total confiscation of private property by the government.

More ominously, this scheme of surreptitious confiscation remains hidden from the vast majority of Americans, who seem blissfully unconcerned about the issue most important to the soundness of the country's monetary system: namely, the character of the monetary unit. One need not be overly pessimistic to predict that misuse by politicians of the fictional, constantly depreciating pseudo-"dollar" to expropriate unsuspecting citizens will continue until an economic crisis finally shocks an increasingly impoverished American people out of its slumber, and forces the people to ask the simple question: "What is a 'dollar'?" At that time, the answer will be no different from what it is today, and has been since 1704 - but the opportunity to use that knowledge to prevent a catastrophe may be long gone.

Therefore, those few who do know what a "dollar" is, and why that definition is important, need to inform as many of their fellow-citizens as possible. If time has not already run out for re-education of the American people in this area, it is racing towards the historic exit. Under these circumstances, silence by the friends of sound money and honest government is not "golden,” but potentially fatal.

Even though we may not agree with the laws as citizens I feel we should
do our best to comply with them. Since the IRS leaves it to me to
determine the tax liability by determining their value in comparison to
the US Dollar then I feel I should do that. The IRS fails to realize
the can of worms they are opening up, however,. The widespread use of
Bitcoin by many that are less than friendly with the ideas of the IRS
and it's employer (the Federal Reserve) can lead to different
interpretation of what they say than what they expected.

The problem that the IRS fails to see is that this could easily blow up
to a huge problem with what exactly is the legal definition of the
dollar that they are using as a reference point to measure compliance. I
believe Edwin Veirra in his 19 page paper "What Is A Dollar" http://www.fame.org/HTM/Vieira... does a thorough legal and historic work on that topic and concludes that a
dollar is one of these - a silver dollar minted by the Constitutionally authorized entity known as the mint. The Federal Reserve Note is, on the other hand, an empty promise to deliver a dollar at some future date but is not, in itself, a dollar. It is a note.

Dr Vierra has four PHDs from Harvard, is an attorney and has successfully argued cases before the US Supreme Court. After reading his work I would love to see someone challenge the IRS to defend their use of the word "dollar" on legal documents when in reality they mean "Federal Reserve Note".

By their declaring we need to convert to the Bitcoin's value in dollars (and not Federal Reserve Notes) I think they have opened up a can of worms where they will have to defend their choice of words. For those not informed about the devaluation of the Federal Reserve Notes it takes approximately 25 of them to purchase one real, legal Dollar. I would interpret the IRS ruling to mean I take the sale price of the Bitcoin in FRNs and divide it by 25 to get its value in dollars. Then declare that as the income amount to determine my taxes upon.

The US Constitution Doesn't Require Most Americans To Pay An Income Tax
http://tinyurl.com/l9xdsmv
This Blog Post and Accompanying Video Playlist Is Designed To Help Explain Why Most Americans Are Duped Into Believing That We Should All Have To Pay An Income Tax When Their Are An Abundance of Supreme Court Decisions That Say The Exact Opposite:

* Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co., 240 US 103 (1916)

* Eisner v. McCumber Case, That Income Is GAINS, or PROFITS as Results From "CORPORATE" Activity, NOT Wages Exchanged For Labor.

* Brushaber v. Union Pacific R.R., 240 U.S. 1, 11 (1916)

IRS LOSES CHALLENGE TO PROVE TAX LIABILITY

Lawyer is acquitted after arguing income levy lacks legal foundation

The Internal Revenue Service has lost a lawyer’s challenge in front of a jury to prove a constitutional foundation for the nation’s income tax, and the victorious attorney now is setting his sights higher.

“I think now people are beginning to realize that this has got to be the largest fraud, backed up by intimidation and extortion and by the sheer force of taking peoples property and hard-earned money without any lawful authorization whatsoever,” said lawyer Tom Cryer just days after a jury in Louisiana acquitted him of two criminal tax counts.

And before you consign him to the legions of “tin foil hat brigades” who argue against paying taxes, and then want payment to explain how to do that, he addresses the issue up front.

“These snake oil peddlers have conned millions of dollars out of many well-intended patriots and left a trail of broken lives in their wake. … These charlatans should be avoided, not only because they will lead you to bankruptcy and prison, but because by association they discredit those who are telling the truth,” he said.

The truth, he said, is where he comes in, with the launch of a new Truth Attack website that is intended to build on his victory, and create a coalition of resources to defeat – ultimately – the income tax in the United States.

Although the legal citations in the case tend to run the length of paragraphs, Cryer said the underlying issue is not that complicated. Essentially, he argued that income is not necessarily any money that comes to a person, but rather categories such as profit and interest.

He said the free exchange of labor for compensation has been upheld as a right by the Supreme Court, but that doesn’t necessarily make the compensation income.

If ever such an argument were to be presented widely, Cryer said, the income to the federal government would plummet. But not to worry, he said, the expenses could be reduced equally by eliminating programs, departments and agencies that also have no foundation in the Constitution.

“The Founding Fathers intentionally restricted the taxing powers of the new federal government as a measure of restraint on its size. By exceeding that limited taxing authority the federal government has been able to obtain resources beyond its intended reach, and that money has enabled the federal government to exceed its authority,” he said.

For example, he said, the Constitution does not empower the federal government to regulate education, or employment, and agriculture, yet it does so.

The jury in U.S. District Court in Louisiana voted 12-0 to find Cryer, of Shreveport, not guilty of failure to file income taxes for two years. He had been indicted in 2006 on charges of failing to pay $73,000 to the IRS in 2000 and 2001. The next step in his personal case will be up to the IRS and prosecutors, if they choose to continue the issue, he said.

But for the rest of the nation, he’s working with Save-a-Patriot, the Free Enterprise Society, Live Free Now and his own Lie Free Zone to spread the message of the truth.

“There are three points that are important,” he said. “There’s no law making the average working man liable [for income taxes], there’s no law or regulation that allows the IRS to contend that earnings are 100 percent profit received in exchange for nothing, and the right to earn a living through any lawful occupation is a constitutionally protected fundamental right, and it is exempt from taxation.”

Spokesman Robert Marvin in Washington’s IRS office said the Internal Revenue Code provides for taxation on salaries or wages, but when pressed for a specific citation, or constitutional provision, he said, “I can’t comment.”

Cryer’s encounter with tax law began more than a decade ago when a friend told him the income tax was sham. Cryer started researching, hoping to keep his friend out of trouble. But his conclusions, after years of research, were exactly what his friend told him.

He researched not only tax laws, but also the documents pertaining to the drafting of the U.S. Constitution as well as the first income tax.

He said throughout his battle, he’s offered at every turn to pay taxes if the IRS could show him the authorization, and that never has happened.

“The Criminal Investigation Division and Department of Justice both responded only with ‘your position is frivolous.’ I had never stated a position, so how could they know whether it was frivolous?” he said. “Imagine my sending you a bill for $1,000 and when you call me and ask what the bill was for I simply said, ‘that position is frivolous, just write the check and send it in.’”

His acquittal, he said, was a precedent because it means “people can see and recognize the truth.”

He said multiple Supreme Court opinions have affirmed an individual’s ownership of his or her own labor, and “exercising your fundamental rights” is not taxable. “It is definitely a trade. What most people receive in the form of wages, salaries or in my case fees that they personally earned for their labor is not received in exchange for nothing.”

He said there might be a profit that should be taxable, but there might not.

“The IRS lets Wal-Mart sell a trillion dollars worth of goods, but they can back out their cost of goods [before being taxed,]” he said. “The IRS considers, in the case of a Wal-Mart wage earner, 100 percent of what he takes in is profit.”

“But he’s using his life, energy and work lifespan, and depleting it as he goes,” Cryer said. “[Working] is a God-given fundamental right that is protected under the Constitution and can’t be taxed any more than exercising freedom of speech.”

While he waits to see what, if anything, the IRS and Justice Department will do next in his case, he’s working to coordinate the groups that are battling taxation as unconstitutional.

“I have started a campaign to unify [the work] and we’ve got a number of organizations that are sponsoring and supporting this campaign,” he said. The goal is to get everyone “who is aware of the truth” organized so they can spread the word.

He warned without a restoration of constitutional basics, the nation is lost.

“Read your Constitution and you will see that the federal role does not include ANY authority to regulate or tax any citizen directly and that WE expressly reserved the right to rule and govern ourselves as States, not as mere political subdivisions,” his website says.

“The Constitution does not allow the government to run your lives, but the money it is stealing from millions of Americans is the fuel for its over-reaching and kibitzing. Take the money back and we and our states and communities can again be free,” he said.

The fight is over “our FREEDOM from rule by a DISTANT RULER, just as we fought to free ourselves of a distant England over 200 years ago,” he said.

yes Im sick of the governments abusing us and using our money for war, when we have our problems and they tend to focous in ganing instead of helping.

To give credit where credit is due. The above 2 posts are cut and pasted from comments of this article

http://www.coindesk.com/us-tax-man-speaks-first-last-time/

I'm interested in following where your sources lead. Unfortunately, your link seems to have little to do with your quoted material on the nature of the dollar, nor on Tom Cryer's case. I assume you must have linked to a page other than desired. Would you be so kind as to update your link? A case number for Tom Cryer's successful pleading would be helpful as well, should you have it.

Nevermind. I see. In the comments. I'll take another look.

Apologies if that was confusing.

It appears that Tom Cryer fought the IRS to his grave.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Cryer

On February 15, 2012, the Court granted another delay,.[19] Trial had been re-scheduled for October 22, 2012, in New Orleans.[20]

Tom Cryer died on June 4, 2012.

Let me circle the wagons back to the original argument.

This is slightly old but

Michigan is the 34th state to call for an assembly. Whether on not this happens due to other states backing out is another question however..
If the states want something changed then it IS in the US constitution to call a convention.

http://www.newsmax.com/US/constitutional-convention-Boehner-balanced-budget/2014/04/11/id/565155/
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/02/rare-option-forcing-congress-to-meet-change-constitution-gains-momentum/
http://joeforamerica.com/2014/04/michigan-just-trigger-constitutional-convention-bid-gains-steam/

This convention is supposedly about the budget. Bitcoin could really shine at a convention such as this. Wouldn't you like to have some transparency in government spending. The blockchain can do this. Gov fraud is perpetrated by keeping things in the dark.

It seems that blockchain technology really will be able to help regulate congress even if it only helps provide transparency.

IT IS ALREADY HAPPENING PEOPLE!


BitCongress is a decentralized, peer to peer, open source voting system built onto the Blockchain in several ways including a mined crypto currency called Votecoin. It is a validated voting system where anyone can become the vote counter or auditor.


http://www.ihavebitcoins.com/featured/danish-political-party-makes-history-opts-blockchain-technology-voting/

That is wild.  Small town in Denmark today, maybe a whole country tomorrow.
Interesting they are using ethereum.

speaking of regulation...Coinbase looks like they are ramping up to start really documenting all transactions and most likely issuing 1099s at the end of the year.   Since you have to go through all the verification processes with a bank account and all, as well as the advanced transaction reports they are now making...I bet by the end of the year we will start receiving 1099s from them :(

Regulate (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60k9Fxrw0us).