Bitcoin Forum

Source (https://u.today/bitcoin-whales-are-selling-btc-before-market-crash-peter-schiff?amp)

Undeniably price manipulation often happens in unregulated crypto markets. Do you agree in this economist statement or do you oppose? Do you believe that recent price surge is cause by manipulation or natural demand?

Peter Schiff is a gold bug, not an economist ;D
About the manipulation stuff, yes, it is a legit concern since many exchanges are not regulated. Economists like to echo the "95% of reported bitcoin trading volume is fake (https://www.forbes.com/sites/cbovaird/2019/03/22/95-of-reported-bitcoin-trading-volume-is-fake-says-bitwise/#4ee5160b6717)" article. Hence, we will have this debate over and over if the situation doesn't change, i.e., not all (major) market regulated.

Trying to guess what caused the pump or the dump is useless in this "mixed" market since there is severe asymmetric information in the inefficient market.

Yawn. When are people going to stop listening to Schiff?

In October 2012, when gold was around $1,700 he said it was going to $5,000 within 2 years: https://www.cnbc.com/id/49550053. Not only did it not hit $5,000, but it never went higher than the $1,700 it was when he made his prediction. In fact, all gold did over the next two years was slowly lose value down to around $1,200.

In December 2015, having been proved monumentally wrong, he made the same prediction that gold was heading for $5,000: https://www.cnbc.com/2015/12/17/gold-is-still-going-to-5000-peter-schiff.html. Now, 4 years on from that, again not only has gold not hit $5,000, but it has never gone higher than the $1,700 it was when he made his original prediction 7 years ago, and is currently sitting around $1,500.

Having been proved completely wrong again, earlier this year he made the same prediction yet again: https://schiffgold.com/videos/peter-schiff-gold-will-go-much-higher-than-5000-video/. Let's see how that turns out for him. ::)

Looking at his predictions for bitcoin, in July last year when bitcoin was around $6,000, he said bitcoin was heading for $1,000 and would then collapse entirely: https://hacked.com/peter-schiff-tells-joe-rogan-bitcoin-price-will-hit-1000/. Needless to say we never came close to $1,000, and yet again the exact opposite of what he has predicted has happened, and we are up 50% from when he made his prediction.

Even last month he said we had hit a "major top" and were rapidly heading for $4,000: https://twitter.com/PeterSchiff/status/1176577713412419589. Yet again, wrong.

He is so completely invested in gold that he rubbishes anything and everything that isn't gold, and refuses to see past his catalogue of errors. I would hate to think what his returns over the last decade have been since he is so consistently wrong all the time. If you did the exact opposite of what he said over the last 10 years, you would be sitting on a nice profit.

TL;DR: If Schiff says bitcoin is going to collapse, that makes me bullish.

Since 2011 I've heard the same goddamn argument about the precious metals market.  Everything is being manipulated, blah blah blah.  And exactly how these "deep-pocketed whales" do the manipulation, or why, or who they are will always remain a mystery--just like any BS conspiracy theory.

If you think the game is rigged, you shouldn't play.  I happen to think that the bitcoin market isn't any more or less manipulated by people with huge amounts of money than any other market I've got some money invested in.  Sure, those anonymous whales could drive the price up and down depending on how much dough they're willing to risk, but ultimately we don't know that this is what's happening.  At all.

I never listened to Schiff in the first place, but he's become somewhat an object of scorn for me over the years.  If you're constantly telling people it's a great idea to invest in something regardless of what it's doing or what it's prospects are (talkin' about gold here), you're either bat-shit crazy or a knave, trying to deceive people.  Sadly a lot of goldbugs do exactly that.  So screw Schiff and his comments on crypto.

I don't know about that.  He'll probably say it whether we should be bullish or not.  I think it's best just to tune him out altogether.

Well, since I don't day trade, the time scales I tend to think in are years rather than days or weeks, and so I'm pretty much permanently bullish about bitcoin on a several year timescale. And since Schiff is a perma-bear on everything that isn't gold, there's so far been a 100% correlation between him being bearish on bitcoin and me being bullish on bitcoin. :P

But you're right, and I do generally ignore everything he says. His name just keeps popping up on this forum every month or two, so it's always useful to point out that he ignores the facts and has just said the same thing on repeat for 10 years despite being constantly wrong.

Any market that is not regulated, is prone to manipulation! Crypto market is also not beyond the reach of such risk! Especially when cryptos don't have much real world applications, majority of the cryptos are being used either in gambling or in trading! That's how the market and its participants are surviving! And the fluctuation jn price actually provides lot of opportunities to a trader to make profit if he/she knows how to play it right! But you know, loosers will always complain!

If you really want to thrive in crypto economy, you must cut down listening to all type of speculations from different people. Stay focused and use your own brain!

This reminds me of December 2017 and January 2018 - loads of "important people" like Jamie Dimon of JP Morgan popped up to say bitcoin was a bubble and it was about to crash and so on.

Turns out they all had shorts in place and were talking their book.

When the crash finally happened, they popped up again to say they were making bitcoin investing available to their clients.

Bottom line: these types of people are always talking their book. Always ask what their agenda is. They're not making these statements because they care about the little people.

The whales in the market is a mystery that no one can figure out and you will hear about them only when you see a massive rally or correction in the market and yet no one can figure out the so called ghosts in the market  :D. Everyone likes a good conspiracy theory and the flash market movement are still a mystery and during those time the magical whales will be blamed for the movement because it is impossible to figure out the real reason ;D.

Bingo.

Big players use their influence to manipulate the market to improve their own position, and yet every time they do, people fall for it. Peter Schiff, who is all in on gold, says bitcoin is a bubble and people should sell and buy gold instead. Well, color me shocked! Big bankers, whose fortune depends on the fiat system, warn people not to buy bitcoin. Well I never!

These people with an audience of thousands or even millions use their influence for their own gain. They don't care about the weak hands losing money - in fact, they are counting on it, so they can profit. Stop doing what they want you to.

Haha... Always about personal gains. That is also an economic strategy but in crypto business, is kind of, spread the fud/fear and wait for a drop to scoop. Is unfortunate that hodlers will keep failing. For my view, hodlings in bitcoin is safer so I won't buy into such trick.

Aren't we all know this by now that the market is indeed manipulated by whales for their own liking? One of the reasons why we have a very volatile market is because we are under in heavy manipulation from whales and even news. Not only are they doing this during profit taking but also in accumulation of the cryptocurrencies when it has bottomed out. In fact from the news I have seen is they never had sold their position when BTC was in the bearish market for a while and they hodl it until it rise back up again. With the heavy influence of the position of the whales have we are in fact at their mercy always and we can't really do anything about that. But pretty soon whales won't be happy about this price levels anymore and I think they will strive for BTC to achieve onto a all new ath in the future

i don't think his primary aim with these prognostications is to get people to sell bitcoin. it's to keep his flock from straying.

he knows that bitcoin's monetary properties are attractive to gold bugs---it's a direct competitor on the store-of-value front. he's got a loyal following (many of whom are customers of his gold brokerage) and he's terrified of losing them.

he uses fear of monetary loss to persuade people to exit fiat and buy gold. in the same way, he uses it to persuade his followers against exiting gold to buy bitcoin.

of course, whoever he is, I totally agree with such statements.
but about this one :
"The whales must make sure the hodlers don't lose faith and cash out so that they can cash in!"
i disagree about this statement, it seems like propaganda for me.

What would you really expect from this guy given his background?

Peter Schiff seems to be a famous gold bug advocating (https://schiffgold.com/) possession of physical gold:


So now it is because of dishonest gold dealers that gold has been massively underperfoming last years (or so it feels). Okay then. But let's not be too hard on him. It is difficult to maintain your composure when you see Bitcoin rising from "rags to riches", metaphorically speaking, in less than no time, while gold couldn't even beat the US dollar inflation during the last 40 years or so (you will remember that Dimon dude from JPMorgan). Gold is likely the best investment option if you want to preserve your wealth (well, maybe at some small expense but still), but when it comes to multiplying it (since this is what most of us are looking for), gold is definitely not an investment of choice

You'd expect him to be the guy that says "Don't say I told you so" after one corrct predictions from the hunded fails he had. He's famous though, in the opposite way that was supposed to be. Listening to his predictions and doing the opposite of them could net you in some profit.

Yep. Even banks would like to fall into gold when a market crashes. Sadly, it's because of this, this attribute of gold which still constantly holds a steady value that makes it a good source to fall back into.
But sadly, its pretty difficult for the old to defeat the new. BTC was pretty fresh in the eyes and a lot accepted it, so naturally, it would exceed the ones before it.

I am not going to believe anyone, even the creator of bitcoin if he appears from somewhere and says that bitcoin will collapse. Only those who lack knowledge and cannot see the future can pass such comments. If ever, bitcoin was some bubble, it would have cared less about making millionaires. This digital currency is the future of money, staying in this world longer than most of us will.

It could be. The thing about these whales is that they're unpredictable and can do artificial pumps and dumps whenever they please. However, during these pumps, it could also have induced FOMO and brought in a surge of demand that further increased the prices. These scenarios can't be stopped from happening since no regulation ever exists. And looking at the charts and the current scenario, there's not much really happening that could trigger another demand increase 'naturally', thus explains why the prices are gradually going down since people who opened from $7k range are starting to sell rather than lose more.

Price manipulation happens in all investments though, just because crypto-currencies are a new decentralized version of money, doesn't mean the market is regulated enough to stop this.

Insider trading and price manipulations, as well as dumping share purposely, etc, all occur in the real stock market. Market manipulation from whales happens in the crypto market, so both sides have ways to change the market.

^^Sum up of Peter Schiff reputation

---

By the way, I just realized there are "levels" of gold bug, just like bitcoin:

Source: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/goldbug.asp

I think Peter Schiff is a gold maximalist (the extreme end). His logic:
- Interest rate up > bad for the economy > market crash > economic crisis
- Interest rate down > bad for the economy > market crash > economic crisis
- Interest rate unchanged > bad for the economy > market crash > economic crisis

Just look at the history of his predictions, of all the only predictions about the economic recession that occured in 2008 that really happened the rest is just nonsense especially about BTC, and it seems he is just a BTC haters who constantly make bad statements about BTC and Crypto to bring investment funds in BTC turn to gold.
Manipulation is always there not only in the BTC or Crypto market as well as in the gold market too, news for reference https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2019/05/20/yes-gold-is-being-manipulated-but-to-what-extent/#425548062865

I've read his article. It might be true that whales and other investors are cashing out as it's festive time and a the prices are higher for the last 3 months average. But such cashout don't really cause a price crash. There are now huge resistance of long term holders. Many of them are not going to sell anything below 20K.

he says this nonsense for the media because he has a financial interest in it. I don't think he believes in what he says, it's propaganda. recently he said that bitcoin is going to 1,000 usd...  ;D

Well it isn't a surprise anymore ,
I have been thinking about it for so long and I believe that it's true,
The whales could manipulate or make the market move so they would always be first in line when the price moves.

Well, anybody who knows or predicted that there is going to be a bearish day ahead will naturally sell their coins. But you know what, this is actually the reason itself why there is a bearish day. It is because people react to rumors. And who is Peter Schiff by the way? Do we have to listen to this man? This man is almost always Craig Wright when it comes to sanity. They both appear to have lost them. Peter Schiff is a Bitcoin hater. We should not even listen to him.

It's funny how you refer to whales as if they're working together as group to manipulate the price to their advantage. It's not like that at all. In fact, whales aren't much different from you and me in terms of market outlook and whatnot. They just have more money to invest, that's it. Percentage wise, they lose out just as much as you do if the market turns against them.

Do you think whales all cashed out at a profit last year when we went from $20,000 to $3000? They got rekt just as hard as most people did, and some even harder as they provided buy support around certain levels the many sellers easily sold through.

An example of whales getting rekt are the dozens of +$10 million institutional crypto funds that had to shut down with over 90% losses. Amongst them there were even +$100 million funds that lost +90% of what they put in. If they just sticked to Bitcoin their losses woudn't be as severe.

It usually depends on market conditions like this. If it's a market when it's good and a lot of good news accompanies Crypto normally it's a natural demand.
But if the exchange is bad is usually a lot of manipulation of the big man or from the market manipulate it use their bots.

This guy is spreading fud again and again

This is something that always occurs to me whenever you see posts or threads on here or any other platform complaining about "the whales" manipulating the market. People seem to think that all these big players are working together to make money from the average Joe, like it's some kind of big conspiracy. There is a secret alert which goes off in your wallet when it contains more than a set amount of bitcoin with a link to a hidden "whale" forum". You have to sign a transaction from an address with more than 1,000 BTC to be allowed to join, and there they plot all their big market movements together, like some kind of secret pump and dump group.

If moving the market up and down was as easy as some people make it out to be, then why don't the largest whales collaborate to just swing the market up and down by 20% in the space of a few hours as they fancy and increase their holdings massively each time (and therefore make further manipulations even easier)?

Whales can affect the market, can amplify bull or bear runs, can cause big swings, sure, but they can't just move it up or down at will.

Personally, I wouldn't use this expression in the given context

And not because I love whales so much but for the simple reason it is not truly applicable to them. It is us, simple folks, who might have gotten rekt in the last two years. But if you had, say, 20M dollars' worth of bitcoins at the end of 2017 (which you had probably bought at substantially lower prices anyway), you would still have millions at the end of 2018. In other words, you don't take into account the effects of scale here

That's the reason why the Winklevii twins and the fellas of their caliber needn't necessarily feel like they have been massively rekt, if at all. If you are a multimillionaire you don't shit your pants when your investment loses half of its value as it is not the last money you have


I wouldn't call them whales as these funds are managing someone else's money (and someone else should be read and interpreted in plural here as in small fish)

The best part is that the article ends with stating how his speculations never saw the light of the day.
Does his opinion even matter when none of his predictions were correct?
The best part is that he always been bearish on crypto and he never turned out to be correct. What I have noticed is that traditional investors are pretty much pessimistic when it comes to crypto currency. The problem is that fundamentals are really different when it comes to crypto and traditional assets. I don't think anyone who did well in stocks can be equally good in crypto trading.

I also cant care less about what this person has to say or believes in. so far, he has been just babbling nonsense. If anyone is paying a bit of his attention, he is wasting his time and energy. Crypto trading is totally different from stock one. The rules of trading remain the same but the rules of asset change. It is not possible to succeed in the world of digital market with old school of thoughts.

He was clearly trying to claim something without a robust evidences. Totally not understable though, hate to say this but his claims are totally stupid. Although bitcoin was all about predictions and stuff but it ain't going nowhere near crash with his delusional thoughts about the market. Besides complete manipulating by whales are just half-true though.

He said the market is crashing and Bitcoin is going to drop even more. Bitcoin drops and says he's amazed and it's because bitcoin market is manipulated by whales :D
So when the price is falling he's fine with that and the price is not being manipulated but when the price goes up against his prediction it's because of manipulation.
He should read this and think about what he's saying. He's like a kid who can't admit to being wrong. Another Craig Wright.

Nothing surprises me if there were personalities who would just simply pop out and making their own insights and predictions towards bitcoins price.
They do say all the things they do have in mind but without even thinking sensibly if its self contradictory or not or just making themselves like
fools into the community. Manipulation can either happen while pumping or dumping.

Peter Schiff is not just a new personality in terms of this statements. He is not a random person who says his piece on the Bitcoin market. Peter Schiff has earned popularity or attention in the Bitcoin market because of his utter hate of the technology. Because of this, I don't think we need to respond to his statements as if they are worthy or objective. They are mostly hate-inciting statements against Bitcoin.

The only thing that will shut Peter up is another bull market. He's going to keep screaming that it's a bubble and a ponzi scheme until he loses his voice and his fingers go numb from typing and Bitcoin won't care. It will move forward and break all resistances on the way to another big top and the world will laugh at Peter.
The best way to battle naysayers is to keep proving them wrong over and over. Warren used to be very vocal and the longer Bitcoin lived the less vocal he became. Don't fight them don't discuss, prove them wrong and win with hard facts not arguments.

I think there's a huge possibility that it is right. We've seen bitcoin go to new highs and fall down really hard and if we are going to think it through, as the number whales continue to grow, the value of bitcoin falls down even more. Just like what happened last year, bitcoin had its highest value so far and nobody expected it to go down afterwards but if you would carefully analyze it, the probability is high since the current whales will gain higher profit and there will be new whales after that sudden growth of price.

To be fair, there are more than a few users on this forum who are more than happy with price swings of 10-20% in a day as long as it is upwards, but as soon as there is a similar downwards movement they all start complaining about whales and manipulation. Can't have it both ways.

Unlikely. In fact, I would expect him to become more vocal during a bull run. His entire business depends on convincing people to buy gold. During a big bull run, more people are going to be likely to abandon gold and move to bitcoin, and he'll need to be extra vocal to try to convince people to stay.

whales are known to have a large quantity of funds so even if you say that their cash out was only small amounts for occasion use , those amounts that they think small are now already huge for us and its okay if one to two whales are doing it but what if they are alot of them ? not just whales but other types of investors do also sell so if we sum this all , it is really enough reason to cause a big dip in dip in the market .

Everyone likes a good movement in price when it is in the upward direction and during those phase no one will complaint about the whales moving the price higher because everyone accepts the price movement because of investors and when the price starts dropping everyone start crying about whales manipulating the market and we will see these cries in the next decade too  :D.

For a person who is fond of technology and enjoys its innovations, Peter is more or less like any random person because we don't really care about his perceptions. He has this habit of looking at the bad side only. Everything has its own pros and cons. Why can’t he just be a bit more optimist and relief to everyone? Bitcoin has helped people financially, saved them from troubles but here he is, just uttering nonsense.

If the market is not regulated you are bound to expect some players getting attracted to the market and start to manipulate the market, we have seen those in the stock market in the past and if you find market that have no consequences if they manipulate then they will not hold back and they will try their maximum to extract the best profit they can have.

There is no point in denying the existence of manipulations in the cryptocurrency industry and I think in almost all industries and even in highly regulated environment, there will always be that thing. The main difference is that here in cryptocurrency, these can easily be known and traced.

Now, as a simple guy with only a little Bitcoin under my semi-control, there is nothing I can do to help this problem. And in fact, because I can also benefit a lot of there will be the same manipulation that can result into another rise of Bitcoin, I would not be making any complaint. Let those who are planning to manipulate the market do whatever they wanted to do using their power and influence. In other words, I do not care at all.

Obviously, when bitcoin whales sell-off, bitcoin price will crash, they are the main reason why it happens in the first place.
Even in the regulated crypto market, whales can dump all they've got, no one can forbid whales to sell their assets, it's a free market.
In a small market capitalization, manipulation is inevitable, but it will change as time goes on after more adopters hold bitcoin.

Been 3 days already and I think the amount of Bitcoins being sold is kind of balancing the amount of Bitcoins that are being Brought therefore I think , it will go fine even if they decide to sell a huge amount of Bitcoins , infact I don't think they will do that though since more or so , if they would have done that the market would have crashed already .
Let's just hope it's a hoax .

I think the price of bitcoin at the exchange has nothing to do with Peter Schiff, because I feel he is only one of the people who are predicting the ups and downs of prices and all who do that I feel can be inaccurate and just guessing, bitcoin will never be predictions will have price movements where it depends on demand from the exchange place.

Yes, so we should know what we will be our strategy too when this happens, we should know how to read the market, for most holders and investors, once they have seen that the whalers are selling then they also selling their Bitcoin and converting it to stable coin, they are just buying again once the price of Bitcoin becomes stable and no more drama from those manipulators, if you know how the market works, for sure you will not panic and you will know how to take advantage too.

Seriously, there's nothing ruthless about shattering these dreams... because if there are Bitcoin people around who don't realise yet how the market is (or naively think the market's all nice and open and free), then they probably need to get dreams shattered.

I personally think guys like Schiff do more for Bitcoin than against -- if it wasn't for the fervour with which people attack Bitcoin so much, others wouldn't want to look into it. You think there aren't people attacking Visa? USD? SWIFT? PayPal?

Anyway, if Bitcoin whales don't sell, where are we gonna get our cheap coins from?

many people have guessed bitcoin and predict the price but many have missed it,
in the telegram there are some BOT about bitcoin transaction information, we can see it there, if there are transactions with a lot of bitcoin we can predict whether the market will decline or not, that I think it's very helpful, I don't know if whales really sells all bitcoin, but we can see transactions so don't worry, we just follow the flow

We have to say like this "market gets crashed after whales selling their bitcoins",its nothing new to the bitcoin and its capable of manipulating with huge buy or sell orders in the desired phase they want to move but economist can't predict the manipulations unless they are one of a bitcoin whale.

Anyway what's his point to the people by making prices get manipulated,wants everyone to stay everyone from bitcoin market or he is saying about whale's strategy?

If you are aware of the market and have the basic knowledge to evaluate the market then you will not end up in a loss and if anyone lost money because of bitcoin then there is no way they are fit to trade in a volatile market like bitcoin, taking care of opportunity means you need to learn about the market first and monitor the market for a long time and learn the past charts and if you do these basics then you will not end up in a loss and if you are lazy enough to do those basics then no one can help you.

I am pro Bitcoin so definitely I do not agree with Peter Schiff.  He is so biased when it comes to Bitcoin and very biased when it comes to gold.  I believe the current price surge is not manipulated and the price is just getting normalized because the previous dump was the one manipulated one and the dump  cannot be sustained, that is why Bitcoin rally in just a short period of time.

you don't need to wait 51% attack to manipulate the market.

20% or 40% combined from several people is enough to make a lot of people panic and following what they do, at this point it seems they successfully make it happened, to bring the sheep go down first and when there a lot of people selling it already, they do buying all at once that causing surges more than 30% nearly 40% i guess.
it is something that we cannot avoided to feel or think that there is a market manipulation happening.

While the dude may have differing opinions on bitcoin from the rest of us, he's actually talking some sense when he said that bitcoin whales are selling off firstly before everyone else noticed. Usually the whales are the market movers, and tend to do the first move before everyone else follows suit. It's a rather crude observation but he's correct and there's nothing wrong with it, although the difference is he tends to end at that notion without giving out some positive credit to the crypto market.

Manipulation is rampant in bitcoin, and if you deny it wholeheartedly and only applaud the gains and not the losses, then you're clearly deluded.

No one is that stupid, especially whales. These are the people who like to be called as the owner of world’s most precious things. Bitcoin is now above all of other assets. It is impossible that whales will leave bitcoin. They never did. If any of them would commit such stupid act, he will be losing his present position. Such acts cannot hurt bitcoin for sure. If one whale leaves, other will takes it place.

While I have always been cautious about he opinions of those that very clearly have opposite goals than the ones bitcoin has, I think that Peter Schiff has a point, the recent market recovery may have been good news for those which love to speculate with the price but I do not think it is good news for long term holders, the move looked manipulated to me, and then I asked myself what was the point of the manipulation? And most likely this was orchestrated by the whales to give themselves more time to sell their coins.

This way they can sell for a high price while everyone is holding expecting even greater returns only for the price to crash close to the levels it was before all of this happened.

Totally! I think Peter Schiff is a huge positive for Bitcoin. He talks so much shit because he knows Bitcoin's properties make it a great competitor to gold. What he doesn't realize is that constantly exposing his followers to Bitcoin will eventually turn some of them into converts. After all, gold bugs have a lot in common with bitcoiners: they want a limited supply store-of-value to hedge against fiat devaluation. Bitcoin fits that description perfectly.

Creating panic so he can buy more and if you are on this market before you will realize this movement by the whales. Whales can sell anytime even without a crash and I don’t think bitcoin will crash that much especially now that a lot of good news supporting the pump and dump of bitcoin. We will go up because whales will stop from selling until we make new ATH again.

People sometimes talking that it's the market manipulation for the sake of some fairy tale story even they knew they can't prove it. Okay let's say someone with 10,000 bitcoin in his wallet are continuously selling bitcoin in the market for 10 days consecutively with no intention to manipulate just wanted to sell it all... where people tired with the market being stuck for over 5 months , what do you think the market response on that 10,000 bitcoin sales?

Of course there's a little number only who can stay buying the coins while the one who selling his 10,000 bitcoin is still trying to sell it at it's best price. At this point the market slowly forming into a bearish trend .... so is it called as a manipulation now? That would always be a mystery what is actually those whales looking for with that move? Then we are simply sum it up as a manipulation price in purpose which it's pure speculation.

It is not a good comparison to make as both have their importance and gold is historically used as a store of value and it will be like that for centuries and bitcoin is a new market which has many properties and i do not want to see that getting restricted simply as a store of value or a speculative coin, i want to see bitcoin as a currency first and a combination of everything.

yeah i also think like that maybe the rise in bitcoin yesterday was manipulated by the pope. we know that they have large amounts of bitcoin and every sale or purchase can have an impact on the price of bitcoin. but sometimes bitcoin price fluctuations can also be influenced by the news. and maybe the news about the statement of the Chinese president who supported the blockchain yesterday also affected bitcoin. in conclusion I also do not know exactly what caused bitcoin to pump yesterday.

Sadly most people are using btc as a store of value. If you forgot there are a lot of investors who are holding long term waiting for the price to reach another peak. How are we able to turn btc as a currency if people keeps on hoarding btc? This is somehow a kind of challenge that btc and cryptocurrency is facing right now. We want it to become a currency more than just a store of value but people aren't showing some interest in that area.

The last time I checked, we were less than 7 months away from the next block reward halving. Now I am not sure whether the bounce that results from the block reward halving will occur before the event or after that, but I am 99% certain that there will be a considerable spike as a result of that. During the block reward halving of 2012, we had a spike of 315x ($4 to $1260), while during the second block reward halving in 2016, the prices went up from $200 to $20,000 (100x).

It is difficult to predict how much the prices will go up, but so far this year we had a 3x increase (from $3,100 to $9,400). If what happened in 2012 and 2016 repeats in 2020, then we can expect BTC to go up by anywhere from $100,000 to $250,000 per coin (from the base price of $3,100 that represents an increase of 33x to 80x). At this point, I would say that only fools would consider selling their coins. Now it is time to hold them and wait for the bounce from the reward halving.  

We can't know for sure if the recent growth of cryptocurrencies is due to manipulation or natural demand. However, this is not so important, it is important that people invest in Bitcoin and the market lives by it. Now it is supported almost only on the desire of investors to profit from investments in cryptocurrencies. At the moment, there is no clear plan for the use of cryptocurrencies in the real economy. If this happens and digital money is used in the real economy, and not just for profit, we can say with confidence that the price change will be caused by natural demand.

One of the most profitable strategy used by whales is moving the market in the wrong direction especially when there are lot of good news hanging around and investors might thing this is going to be a price boom in the near future but they will dump the market and crash most currencies prices then will buy back at more cheaper then the prices will starts to increase and investors will again start hoping for this will be bullish.

This is all pure speculation

As you note further in your post, we went from lower 3k's to almost 14k (not 9k), and we did this feat without any halving. That actually leaves it open to discussion whether the coming halving will have such an impact on prices. Yeah, we would like to expect Bitcoin to rise past its 2017's highs. But if it rose so much without halving (i.e. thanks to speculation alone), it could as easily drop before or after the next halving. Each halving becomes less and less relevant since the reduction in the reward will be affecting the total supply in an ever smaller and smaller degree

We may not see such 1000% rise in price from bottom to peak like with the last halving of LTC, yet still, 200-300% price increase is a very possible thing.

People just like to sit down on their bed and imagine some things from their mind without fact and analysis, they make it known to the public and say it as if they are sure it is what is exactly happening. This is really a ridiculous thing to think that whales will be selling off their coin now that they are just accumulating.

If the op had said they are accumulating, I would have seen sense in it because what whales does is to look for the available opportunities to actually buy bitcoin at a lower price which they wait for the coin to really grow before making any step to actually sell and of course, they will never sell all the portion of what they had accumulated, they will only sell the little that they can sell while they await bull run for the remaining one.

Actually if we think what happen in the market last week you will just think twice because bitcoin price dramatically go down then in just a minute the price go higher like a rocket. So if it's a natural demand why the price is bounce like that. Obviously it's a manipulation of whales that till now playing the market. I think people don't panic when they see the price in the market is going down because whales get this opportunity to play the market again.

Whales are whales, they are not affected of any news or any technical analysis. The sooner they seen there's opportunities  coming from the open market they will simply grab it. Most of the time those whales dives to the deepest creating artificial downfall and waits for weak holders to panic and sell out everything. Those poor investors that being victimized loses their money since whales will buy it back and grab more coins inside their bags.

I saw another bearish Peter Schiff prophecy in my Twitter feed today. CryptoBull puts it into perfect context: (https://twitter.com/CryptoBull/status/1192856337731989505)

https://i.imgur.com/zXVyqFC.png

Schiff is like every other BTC perma-bear I've ever seen, always celebrating end-stage selloffs without realizing the market is bottoming.

I doubt we'll see prices any lower than $8,500.

It's a bit of both. While bitcoin is getting harder and harder each day to manipulate by some large movers it still happens.  Bitcoin is still in the phase where new peoe are learning about it each day so I think a lot of it has to do with peoe on boarding as well.  The halving coming up also has some people buying ahead of that event as well.  Could it crash yup, could it spike yep.  Point is buy bit by bit and dont worry about the short term ups and downs unless you are a trader.

Seeing the rate now, I think there is an effort to crash the price. There are some predictions that it can even go down as low as $900.

If this proves to be true, it's likely an effort to snag REALLY cheap coins in preparation for another cycle of boom. Some expect the price to hit as high as $100k upon halving. We'll just have to wait and see. In the meantime if you've held out this long, might as well hold on for a few more months and bet on the predicted rise upon halving.

A 300% price increase would take Bitcoin from the current levels of $9,000 to $36,000. I am not sure whether we can expect such a rise. I would say that the chances looks 50/50 right now. There is also a good chance that the exchange rates can go down (just like what happened to Litecoin, immediately after the block reward halving)

I think we will be better off making our Bitcoin investment decisions based on the opposite of what Peter Schiff are saying, because he has been more correct with his incorrect predictions than he was with the accurate predictions.  ;D

A lot of so-called experts will make say 20 incorrect guesses and when one prediction are accurate, people will celebrate their genius. I think Peter Schiff is one of those people and at one stage he will get lucky and people will follow him like sheep to the slaughter.  ;)

Just 15 predictions to go, he might get lucky soon.  ::)

I don't think we can expect such a huge increase as things can go either way, I think our own analysis can help us in order to take right decisions because as per current market situation we cannot believe any prediction. We need to consider Litecoin halving and XLM burning half of it's unused tokens which did not have any significant impact on price increase.

There was an effect actually. People are looking back at the previous halvings. There were effects, or at least the price of Bitcoin pumped following the halving. Whether those effects could really be attributed solely to the reward halving itself, we cannot be sure. As with Stellar burning billions of their tokens, there was also an immediate pump that followed. That was not a huge pump though, not even reaching 50%.

I think it is very revealing that the most vociferous opponents of bitcoin are exactly those people who have the most to lose if crypto is a success. People like that are the same as the oil company execs who say global warming is fake. If someone makes a pronouncement that bitcoin will succeed or fail, always the first question to ask is what does this person have to gain or to lose? Sometimes it is so transparent it is laughable. The louder these people become, the more their predictions start to look like desperate wishful thinking rather than cold hard logical analysis.

From my perspective, things look a little bit different

We have recently seen a surge in volatility of Bitcoin prices, and that has a simple explanation as well as a straightforward implication and an obvious conclusion. The explanation is that these bouts of volatility are due to markets becoming thin (what can be seen by declining trading volumes)

Then, the implication is that with thin markets it takes less liquidity to move them in the desired direction, be it up or down, or even preventing such moves (as this is also a possibility and an option). All that leads us to a conclusion that Bitcoin is in fact getting easier to manipulate as trading volumes decline

Yeah agree that if the daily trading volume of bitcoin is less then it will need less money to manipulate the prices but the manipulation may not more profitable to the whales if no traders respond to that but currently they were reacting to the price drop this has further impact on the prices and gives opportunity for whales to make profits and left the traders suffers so traders need to see this strategy and plan accordingly.

Actually, that depends on a scale of the whale, so to speak

It can be said that whales come in all forms and sizes, but what's even more important here is the fact that the ability to manipulate prices in a meaningful (read, profitable) way trickles down to whales of a smaller caliber in thinner markets. In other words, people whom we would never consider whales under different circumstances now can move the price, i.e. behave in exactly the same way as we would expect a real whale to behave. The bottom line is that it still remains a matter of perspective (more specifically, of zooming in and discerning the smaller whales acting like the big ones)

Good. People were extremely bearish at $7,300 a few weeks ago too. It's always darkest before the dawn.


I don't think Schiff has much to lose if Bitcoin succeeds. Gold isn't going anywhere. If anything, he's piggybacking on Bitcoin's hype to increase his own relevance and enlarge his following. He annoys Bitcoin supporters but it's good business.

Ever since the beginning of this year, the bitcoin market has always shown the sign that the dump trend is yet to exit the market which is also the reason why the market is experiencing an expected dump in price anytime but the part of crashing low to $900 price range is something I don't believe will happen.

The dump range is all false and the current price of the market is enough to accumulate cheap coin.

I know the price of $900 is ridiculous but again, I'm just going of the worst predictions I've read in btc news. The price currently is still cheap, yes. Would still have been better if people managed to buy before the price starts going up last May. I think 100k is also too optimistic.

Investors who are currently considered as whales wouldn't be in their position if they are not strategic and wise. You would definitely see them out there selling bitcoin before the market crash because they know it's the best thing to do. We can say that they are manipulating the price of bitcoin wherein as they sell on high, the price would go down and then afterwards, they can start buying cheap bitcoin to hold it for long and sell it again when the price comes back up. It's all bout outsmarting the system, that's why they ended up becoming Whales.

Every investor counts and holds its own role. The impact of those who buy or sell big amounts is indeed greater than those who play in points but still if a lot of small investors will sell out, it is going to leave same impression on market value of the coin as that done by a big whale. Moreover, it is not only whales or investors that are only factor. The market depends on government movements too.

So what you are saying is the the price might go up a lot or it might go down a lot after halving.  :D. I mean one of those comments will be right.  People/groups buy and sell for various reasons.  Smart money doesnt follow the crowd.  Best case is to just steadily buy on predetermined timelines, and when it does go up just enjoy the ride. 

There is even a theory that there are no whales (only big holders who are not trading)

And thus there are no market manipulations either, so all price movements are only caused by changes in aggregate demand as well as supply. Personally, I'm not very much sold on this theory, but that's not my point here. The main problem with the current market is that even relatively small investors and traders can move the market on their own (i.e. not collectively). In this way, they are the new whales, with truly big whales hiding deep under the surface

Big bitcoin holders are called as whales and majority are holding the coins for the long period.

The market is not regulated and hence the possibility of manipulation is highly likely to happen and so is the reason we see instant rise and fall in the price quite often. Even a movement of huge amounts of coins from old dormant wallets can create FUD and we have seen those situation in the past where the market usually goes down when ever there is a movement of coins.

In trading parlance whales are the ones who move the price

So the big holders who are just sitting on their coins don't cut it as whales (unless they choose to enter the heat), though I certainly see what you are getting at, But ultimately, it is only a matter of convention, and probably not worth discussing here further


I'm not saying there's no manipulation. I'm only saying there exists such an idea or theory that what we think as deliberate manipulation is really just regular market behavior. If someone buys a load of coins and that expectedly moves the price up, would you call that manipulation? And when someone else instantly unloads into this upward push, and with a vengeance at that, would it count as yet another instance of deliberate market manipulation? If these are the examples of market manipulation, then this approach destroys the very idea of manipulation as every significant price change becomes an act of downright manipulation

Note, these are the premises of that theory, I don't necessarily agree with them nor the theory itself

It is like those self-proclaimed experts in trading showing off their self-proclaimed expert technical analysis. They will tell you that this particular movement in this particular direction is probably going happen but everybody should also be watchful and brace for the possibility that it will also take the opposite direction. They will always be right and never wrong, which makes them totally worthless.

Selling bitcoin before crash market maybe still possible because bitcoin price right now have down, although always end year bitcoin can prediction to higher price maybe is not available with this year bitcoin goes down. Without any confirmation with bitcoin adopt by big company and no country want to allow using bitcoin as legal currency will give bad price for bitcoin at the future.

I don’t know about you guys, but I take this as a positive note. This is what they do; at one point, they say things are about to go bad, then at another point, they are reaping benefits from the bull of the market. Very strategic people.
The ‘haters’ of crypto are still reaping benefits from them.

These people are essentially producing noise

They may have their own agendas (and they most certainly do) but you should be aware that even if you strongly disagree with what they say or claim, their words are still affecting you and probably not in the way you would really want. They are spreading FUD, and it is not like we are immune to it even if we think we are and know better. Remember, the bigger the lie, the more it will be believed

I don't know how many times we are going to discuss this topic. This topic is no longer something new, it has been discussed a lot of times and we all know for sure that Bitcoin can be manipulated ,same thing with other cryptocurrencies that are unregulated, they can all be manipulated.

Judging from your rank in this forum you're already an old member I believe you know much about Bitcoin and cryptocurrency, so you should not be asking questions on whether unregulated cryptocurrencies can be manipulated, because they can be. Small altcoins are even the worst, they have small market cap and anyone with a huge amount of money can just jump on any of them and start manipulating the price and after they are done they will dump then.

huh ? i dont know about you but this is the only time that i saw this topic. . but im aware that bitcoin is manipulated but im not aware that whales are selling before the dump happens   . whales are here because they also want to profit and they can only profit big ones they sell thier coins at the highest possible value and besides , if they will crash the market, itll only lead to more crashes because people will going to panic and sell

So how can we know if the market is now manipulated or if someone says bitcoin is crashing? When the one whose saying it and talking about it are people with names and not to mention with their prestigious companies.

Do you have an accurate tool to predict when will the market crash? I bet you don't have it so you cannot sell your Bitcoin at the most perfect time. Year ends do not always give Bitcoin a better price. There is no such pattern if I am not mistaken.

News about adoption will always be positive for Bitcoin especially if the company announcing is a large global company that has a solid clientele. A country announcing its support to Bitcoin is much better.

You can't have 100% certainty. The market doesn't work that way.

However, you could say:
- There is evidence for market manipulation, as explained by Bitwise et al.;
- Margin trading "flash crash;"
- Correlation between Tether "printer" activities and BTC price;
- Some say the correlation between YoBit activities and BTC price, etc.

How reliable? You judge it by yourself.

Famous people could say whatever they want, but rarely they will get punished, especially in the crypto market. In the regulated market, stupid comments will lead to fines and maybe getting delisted.

Anyone that has large amount of money to move in and out of the market at the shortest possible time is to me termed as a whale whether they are individual or group of people, so whales actually do exist and they started too when the wall street entered the market, it was from there that the manipulation of this bitcoin started.

Also, it is not every time like you said we see all forms of dip and rise of bitcoin as manipulation, some are definitely caused by the activities of people which sometime depend on the way they place demand and supply for these coins. Sometimes, many of these people claiming that whale will be crashing the market is just because they are also looking for the best spot to buy at a very cheaper rate so they can only join the market manipulation by buying the coin at a very cheap rate after creating panic for some investors.

All Schiff wants is to sell you gold through his company and he's not even a good salesman. I saw his showing off his gold card that works as his portable wallet and saying that with it he can take his gold anywhere. He doesn't even understand that owning a card isn't like owning a bitcoin wallet. You still have to believe that some other people will believe this is gold and some other people will vouch for your card.

A card is not gold obviously. Peter Schiff does not want to admit that owning an asset does not have to go through middlemen or third parties. When someone owns Bitcoin, considered by many as the digital gold, he owns it and holds it and can even spend it without the need to go through a third middle party. The gold card that Peter Schiff is holding is nothing but a kind of representation of the gold that he owns but never has access to because it is being kept and held by a third party company far away.

This is so disappointing, he is supposed to be someone that is a supporter of gold and he is not even holding his gold himself and that kind of thinking is what allowed governments to create their fiat currencies, personally I do not care if someone prefers gold or silver over bitcoin but whatever is your preferred way to store your wealth you need to make sure that you are the only one holding your coins, otherwise when a crisis happens and you really need to get access to your coins you will be unable to do so.

That is why I considered this Peter Schiff argument very flawed from the beginning. Peter is so proud of his gold and how it is believed to be of utmost value compared to Bitcoin. I don't want to disregard the fact that gold is really valuable, dating from the most early of ages until now and most probably up to the future but he cannot argue against Bitcoin that they can also gold and own it literally. Unless they own gold in the form of jewelries or gold coins or other forms of gold that is stored in their own house, their gold is owned by third parties in a sense because they are the ones holding them.

Peter Schiff has a company, a gold and silver investment company. Maybe He's trying to convince people to buy from it by doing these unnecessary things, it bugs me out.  Gold and bitcoin has been the center of investment questions like what's the best deal they could have from buying these two. I just don't know why Peter Schiff acts dumb in public showing off his gold card as a "gold wallet", maybe he thinks it works on plain things, gold and silver, like bitcoin and other cryptocurrency.

It is obvious that he is just trying to manipulate and convince the people in the internet to freak out and sell their cryptocurrencies and just jump into his investment company. If you really know the cycle of the market then you already know that it is normal to see a market crash and the only thing that matters is how are you going to react to it, are you going to buy more or are you going to lose your mind and sell all of your holdings.

Again another suspicious Bitcoin expert and another conspiracy theory and theory about whales.
I think that some people are just trying to find their five minutes of glory and get attention for their own interests. I wouldn't take this prediction seriously and definetely wouldn't react with selling, that wouldn't be a good idea.

It is only a theory, and I do not necessarily endorse it


And this is where things get tricky

It should be obvious that everyone in this market, in fact in any market for that matter, is pursuing their own interests, which consist in earning dough, as simple as it gets. Another obvious thing is that cryptocurrency markets are essentially a zero-sum game, i.e. there is only so much money, and if you win, someone else necessarily loses. And the bigger your win is going to be, the more people will have to lose to provide for that profit

In this way, if someone, someone whom we can rightfully call a whale, uses his financial leverage to his advantage, and does his job of earning money pretty well, which is only possible if it is someone else's money (since it is a zero-sum game), it means that many people have to lose their coins and cents. Can we then call that an instance of market manipulation as this is how all these people will inevitably feel (kind of robbed)?

They are whale because they are huge investors.  This is expected of any investor who wants to make huge profits.  They are not sympathetic, and they are not wicked.  There plan for investing is to make profit and nothing less.
The price is a characteristic of manipulation,  when it's natural, it will not really within a short period in time as the demand will be high.