Bitcoin Forum

For some instinctive reason I decided to check my entry on BPIP, and I was disappointed to see that I had dropped from DT1 to DT2, and I'm not sure what caused this. I know that TMAN was, deservedly in my opinion, a DT1, and he put me in his list, but as he has left the forum, I guess his opinion no longer counts. I've been pretty active and controversial in the covid threads, and I am saddened by the fact that most people don't seem to bother with the observable facts, and just accept the pharmaceutical narrative, and I wonder if this has affected my trust ranking in some way. I have also been having difficulty in awarding merits, and I don't want to compromise my ( possibly unpopular ) standards by just awarding them to empty my merit chest.

I believe that trust should be related to trading and honesty, but it is difficult to trade in this forum. My only relevant trading is the buying and selling of domain names, and there is not a usable board here, despite the interest of many members in web site construction. My other interest is the purchase of small quantities of Bitcoin for Sterling, and apart from JackG, I have not managed to find any such trades. I have advertised in my signature, and on a couple of the boards here, but with no success.

So my question is - how can members improve their trust ratings if there are no business trading opportunities in the forum?

You can have a look at loyce.club to see exactly where the trust was shed but I found you had 7 qualifying votes according to this page: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;dt

I think it was 10 votes you needed from people who've earnt 10+ merit.

Trading isn't as much of a thing atm I don't think as there's fewer people in the forum. I got to. The currency exchange about twice a week and there aren't normally European trades there.

Trust rating is no longer only related to trading. I've put negative feedback on users trying out various scams, I've put negative feedback for impersonating, for automated translations... but far too few over time, I know.
But I think that this is DT about: highly active users that put negative feedback on wrong doers. Of course, the DT members have to be highly trusted, since negative feedback leads sooner or later to various sorts of questions and also retaliation.

@JackG

Thanks for that link. I don't recognise most of the people in the level 1 list, so maybe that explains things. Is there some massive underworld here that I don't know about, or am I living in some historic subset of members?

I've been on bitcointalk since 2014, never scammed anybody, never doxxed, never plagiarised, don't care for drama threads... I'm 99%  >90% here for technical stuff, because i love the technology that's discussed here but not the drama that's always unfolding in front of our eyes. I was banned for a couple of days once because i participated in a giveaway that was started in the wrong subforum, that's about it.
I have 4 neg tags, 3 of them come from game-protect (so i consider them a badge of honour instead of a neg tag). The last one was from some guy who took offence by the way i was actually helping people. He didn't offer any assistance, but felt that the way i assisted them was "wrong". He actually called me "the most dangerous person on bitcointalk"...  ::) But every other tag i have is positive-ish...

Even after all this time, i'm fluctuating in and out DT2. But the thing is: I really couldn't care less.
Sure, it's an ego thing: it's always nice to know people trust you... But if you're not trading on this forum (wich neither of us seems to be doing), how is somebody actually going to trust you? I mean, as long as people don't know you in person, or haven't succesfully trusted you with big amounts of money, why would they actually trust you...

At least, that's my takeaway... But to be honest, the times i'm in DT2, I tend to put more scrutiny on myself when tagging somebody or supporting (or opposing) flags. It adds a tiny bit of stress to my day (not a lot tough) since my ratings are shown as "trusted" and the flags i support/oppose can actually become active/inactive due to me... So, i really couldn't care less if i'm in DT or not.

Just my 2 satoshi's tough...

EDIT: PS: for what it's worth, eventough i don't agree with your stands on the corona-epidemic, i do trust you... I wouldn't take any of your virus-related advice, but if you'd ask me if i'd trust you to hold a couple hundred bucks of my funds, i'd probably say that you're trust-worthy :)

Well maybe that is where I go wrong. I'm not particularly interested in getting into flame wars, and members like " Very Well Endowed" and "Frankly" that seem to be trolling me, I just put on ignore. I don't even know if they are still doing it, as I don't read their posts, and can only judge by the juxtaposition of their replies. I report the odd post for plagiarism or spam, but not very often. I'm here for the information and the news, and finding a few friends is an added bonus. I'd like to use the forum for a few domain or Bitcoin trades, and it saddens me that it doesn't seem possible at a time when we are going through a major economic reset, and a shift in social and banking behaviour.

That page (or any page on Bitcointalk) can't show if Jet Cash has 10 votes. You'd need to look on LoyceV's site:

https://loyce.club/trust/2020-09-26_Sat_05.08h/698159.html

Which tells us that Jet Cash qualifies - definitely more more than 10 users trusting him, large amounts of merits between them. However there is also the lottery: DT1 has 100 spots so if more than 100 users qualify then the 100 are picked randomly each month. For example 139 users qualified this month:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5117330.msg55139286#msg55139286

Jet Cash simply lost the lottery. However that doesn't change his trustworthiness and he's still in DT2 so his ratings, flag support/opposition, etc still carries the same weight. Next selection is in a few days.

Don't worry about it Jet Cash
Default Trust is lottery based and even theymos was DT2 at some point, and same apply to all DT1 members.
I honestly don't care if I am DT1, DT2, DT3,but I am sure DTrolls (aka Default Trolls) like shithunter, BSV and similar imbeciles care very much about DT  ;D

Well I know that life is a lottery, but I think one should be able to have some control of one's reputation and honesty. I made the mistake of including the statement that I was a DT1 member of this forum, and I hoped that this would bring in some new business members. Obviously I can no longer make that statement, and I will need to remove those links. Honesty and trust is something you earn, you don't win it in a lottery in my opinion.

Trust feedback should be related to trading, honesty, or likelihood of scamming. However, in your first paragraph you are talking about your ranking on default trust, which is related to your judgement and not necessarily your honesty.

I would flip that question over and ask "If there are no business opportunities which interest you on the forum, then why do you need a high trust rating?"

Does Jet Cash know that LoyceV is not in the DT1 network any more :-P
https://loyce.club/trust/2020-09-26_Sat_05.08h/459836.html

My point is if with 211 inclusion LoyceV is out of DT1 than why would anyone of us will feel sad about it when we are not in the DT1 network. :-D Anyway, the answer is already there by suchmoon,
In the lottery your name was not picked.

Maybe it's prestigious too.

A bulls eye on your back is what it is. "Prestige" of being trolled relentlessly, particularly if you happen to have an opinion and not just sit quietly hugging the DT1 badge :)

If you are actively defending the wrongdoing, constantly working to protect the innocents from the bad guys, working hard to keep the community safe you will be picked by those who are not getting benefit from it or is not able to walk away freely because of you. They will troll you and will do whatever they can to stop you. Being in the DT1 or DT2 network is not a matter for them.

Point is, trolls will troll you, haters will hate you even when you are not doing anything, your position does not matter for them.

I'm active in a number of locations on the net, including my own websites. Bitcoin has become the currency of the Internet, and I hope that I can persuade more buyers of domain names to use it for payment. Bitcoin Talk is a great reference for potential users, and thus a good credit rating here could be important. Obviously stating that I am DT1, when due to a lottery, this is no longer true, diminishes my credibility. Potential buyers will obviously wonder what I have done to lose my ranking. Perhaps it is time to use a more accurate name for the system. The alternative is to remove oneself from the rankings, but this seems to be counter productive for every one concerned.

Dave's ramblings:
One of the issues (IMO as always) that there are a lot of people, myself included who will ~ you for being a scammer or an idiot or a troll or whatever.
But to actually get added to the list the bar is much much higher.

There are only a few people on my admittedly short list that I have added without trading. Either very helpful members, known scam busters, know to report a ton of malware or other things, etc.

There are a bunch of people with ~ that are just trolls or scammers or asshats. Never dealt with them but just reading their posts got them there.

There are 1 or 2 with ~ that just seem off to me and for some reason I just don't trust them. Can't put my finger on it, they just seem "off"

So, for DT1 although there are a lot of people who claim that it is rigged I don't think it is.
I just think you have to be doing certain things that a lot of people, myself included that help the forum and show you are doing things that people want to see.

As an example (And once again this is just me) there are these 2 threads in meta:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1926895.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5182222.0

People are spending time pointing out posts that hurt the forum. I might have never traded with you, or even know who you are but there are at least 2 people on my trust list that are active in those threads because they help keep the forum clean.

Just posting might get you merits, but to get added to trust seems to be harder. You said you were on DT1, so you know it's not impossible It just takes some work to stay there are people move on and off because you have to stuff that makes all of them with their various views add you to their trust list.

-Dave

I can appreciate that the mods need help to keep control of such a busy forum, and I am pleased that there are members who are prepared to provide this help. I don't think that I an the right person to do this though, as I have my own standards, and they don't always coincide with the general forum opinions. For example, I would neg anybody who makes nested quotes, as I find them extremely annoying. I don't feel that my use of the ignore button rather than the report button is a reflection on my honesty or trust though.

I guess the bottom line is that Bitcoin Talk is missing a massive opportunity for the promotion of Bitcoin by not providing a business trading platform. Without this, it is difficult to see how it can retain a leading position in the Bitcoin world.

This paragraph demonstrates why

1. DT1 means zilch with regard being trustworthy.
2. Your opinions are perhaps the result of either
a/ senile dementia
b/ just general low capacity to absorb and process information accurately.
c/ intentionally nefarious.
d/ other

Let me clearly substantiate those points

1. Many people on DT1 have indisputable and conclusive evidence proving they have been guilty of serious financially motivated wrong doing. They also are clearly abusing the trust system and some are proven liars.

If you want the evidence simply struggle over to the dirty turds thread here or take a look at the lauda flag in rep or examine the lfc proven liar thread or the nutildah proven willing scam facilitator for pay thread.
If you are incapable of researching then ask me for the specific links.


2. Your other stated opinion that Tman deserves to be on DT1 is hilarious.
He is a proven auction scammer, was implicated strongly in an extortion scheme with his best pal lauda another proven scammer.
He is a self confessed trust abuse who claims he can and will red tag people for presenting the truth.

Therefore it is very sensible that you're not on DT1 not that it makes any real difference since DT2 can trust abuse people and also get away with making false claims of trolling against those that dare to counter your spurious silly slobbering with strong corroborated arguments aka truth and reality.

I agree a long trade history should be part of the equation but of course you need to be able to process information correctly. if you believe that proven scammers and trust abusers should be in positions of trust then of course your opinions can not be trusted.

Now can you please debunk any of those points?

I'll await the running away ( ignoring or false claims of trolling you ) when I am simply correcting you and furnishing the reader with on topic and relevant information that will prevent them from being mislead by your opinions and speculations.
I don't believe you have formed these misleading opinions due to a lack of access to pertinent facts.
You simply seem to wish to promulgate false and debunked information as true.
This is really what trolling is.

Break it down point by point if you like and ask for any evidence you require.
I am always happy to be civil and help those that are reasonable.

If you are a nefarious alt then of course you will not even wish to debate in public and establish the truth.

If you really must get on DT1 then the case maybe that they are not yet confident enough that you'll be useful to them.

If you detect any trolling in this post please specifically highlight it so I can see where you've misunderstood.

This is a Bitcoin forum so your opinions about COVID should be irrelevant when we are taking about trust. Same goes for everyone else. If you are being trusted or distrusted based on your posts about COVID, I would rather question the decisions of people who base their judgement on such opinions.

You don't have to claim that you are a DT1 member, saying you are a DT member suffices. You have positive trust, to me it appears as +4, for others maybe more. DT1 or DT2, it doesn't really matter. Anyone who has been here long enough has heard about you. A different badge wont change that.

---

I rarely check my own ratings, and just a few days ago I noticed that I was added by Daniel91 on his trust list. He is a +2 so does that make me a +1 now, or...? According to bpip, it doesn't. 

 

My response may be a little bit off-topic but first of all, I want to say that Default Trust shouldn't be the most important metric here! Because Trust is abused and this is the place where we are more likely anonymous. Default Trust and trust scores in overall may give a little bit boost in confidence someone to take first step in trading or trusting something, it's like gambling where chance of win is 90% but you don't know whether that 10% shine or not.

Why do you have to improve trust ratings? It's just numbers and it's easy to fake numbers. Anyone can organize a good plan about how to boost their trust, even with trading. Someone may trade even thousands of USD just for trust score, it's like investment in your trust. But there are other people who have a need of trading and find this place a good one to trade and built trust naturally that they really deserve.

Trust system is dilemma here.

What's wrong with merely stating that you fulfill the requirements for being chosen as one of the council of DT1's? The nature of the requirement by itself shows that you are trusted by multiple meritorious individuals. One could associate that with being trusted by various accounts of reputable status, though this is up for debate. :)

---

FWIW I hardly look at trust anymore and pass most things through escrow. Why even think about it?

Addendum:

The whole point of the revised DT system is to encourage users to create custom lists. This has been successful in some part, due to the fact that there even exist DT1 users: accounts would have had to set at least 10 users on their trust list, which should invariably increase decentralization from the base case of "theymos trust user"

I recognise about 75%.

The English speaking ones are just old members like mods and core devs with a few other meta members there.
Some will be from sections sich as the Russian section which is pretty big afaik and a lot of other local boards have a large following..


The site i suggested would've ;)

This could be indeed a good course of action; either rename, either split into it's trading and forum behavior "components".

You could just say that you're a member of Default Trust. But in general using it as some sort of "credit rating" is wrong IMO. Being in Default Trust means your judgement is trusted. It doesn't necessarily reflect your creditworthiness or other attributes that are important in trading. That's what trust feedback is for, which doesn't depend on you being in DT1 or DT2.

Whether that matters at all outside of Bitcointalk is another story. Someone coming here and claiming they have a reputation on some other site where we can't verify it, or even check if the reputation/account may have been purchased, would be treated with great suspicion. I would imagine same would apply in reverse.

That is clearly a possibility but I have seen conclusive proof of the opposite taking place.

For instance a prolific and huge scam hunter, no evidence of any financial wrongdoing ever, always fighting for fairness and equality  was punished by proven scammers on DT1 for whistleblowing on them and this was sanctioned and supported by many other DT1 scammmer supporters. The majority of Dt1 that frequently post on meta (a couple of exceptions) are untrustworthy and have all run away from answering questions on some of the scamming, scammer protecting and willful scam facilitating for pay or trust abuse or lying about financially related wrongdoing.

If I am not mistaken the same proven scammer that you teamed up with to conduct your " charity work" is perhaps one of the most untrustworthy members here. So I'll take your word with a bag of salt as I prefer to watch peoples actions rather than listen to their words.

So I wouldn't try to reinforce the false and misleading claim that being on DT1 is any kind of reference or guarantee of honesty or constantly working to make the " community safe ". The only important thing I can say about being on DT1 is that it appears to work like a honey pot for the most driven, greedy and untrustworthy. (based on my research on meta and rep in recent times)

I would say there is much evidence to suggest that DT1 is a racket where many collude to ensure they can spam the highest paying sigs and crush the competitors of their sponsors or own projects.

This thread is full of provable mistakes, willful misleading and deliberately ignoring independently verifiable evidence that refutes their claims.

Jetcash and most people ( not all) on this thread are certainly not suitable for positions of trust.
They are either willing and deliberate scammer protectors, or willing to support a system they know is corrupt and broken or just willing to look the other way.  

The merit and trust systems here are dangerous. Those promugating the notion that DT1 is an important metric or some kind of reference or guarantee they are trustworthy is a certainly a troll.

Again if any part of this post can be refuted or you require a further drill down on any point I've made here whatsoever they can request and I will provide evidence that you can verify for yourself.

The only sensible post is from actmyname. I would say only that he is overly optimistic certainly he should change meritorious with merited and is debatable with proven to be untrue after many debates.
Also the intention to decentralize does not really mean it is successful or advantageous or that 10 other users have really been chosen it is could be now a lot of socks or is going to be a lot of socks.

Also is something really decentralized if one person designs it and enforces the very lax rules?
Was the DT1 more trustworthy in it's old form?
I think that although some went rogue there are many more holes and more subtle or insidious dangers with the current systems by far.

Still compared to the other posts it was more realistic aka far nearer the truth and far less misleading than the rest.

Even the post from ieoeoe has some value. I hope he's okay.

The pharmaceutical narrative affecting your trust ranking?  Where are you posting your opinions about COVID-19 primarily, is it in Serious Discussion or Ivory Tower?  I'll have to un-ignore those sections if that's the case, because I'm interested to read your opinions.

But no, I really don't think any of that has anything to do with where you stand as far as being on DT.  Frankly, I stopped paying attention to who is or isn't on it months ago, and though I assume I'm probably still on DT2, in truth I have no idea. 

Why does it matter to you so much whether you're trusted on the forum?  It isn't going to give more weight to your opinions on things like COVID-19.

Fighting scammers, not being a scammer, time, and getting to know other members on a level that's more than superficial.  Those things help over time--but there are trading opportunities on the forum, e.g., in the Currency Exchange section, although that's not a great way to obtain green trust from a DT member if that DT member is prudent as far as handing out positive feedbacks goes.

Even better: check my DT1-election: Rank up pipeline (https://loyce.club/trust/ranking/) for Jet Cash (https://loyce.club/trust/ranking/698159.html), this accounts for some of the DT1-criteria:

TL;DR: theymos removed you on September 6 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5095156.msg55140630#msg55140630). I expect the next DT1-reshuffle within a week. I'm in the same boat :P

I made a site for that too: Is LoyceV still on DT? (https://loyce.club/Is...StillOnDT/LoyceV.html) (ignore the glitch 3 days ago) :)

You can just state you're on DefaultTrust, which is true. But if this is a reason for someone to trade with you, it can mean they're hoping for green DT feedback, which shouldn't be the reason for a trade.

Being on DT is very helpful when tagging scammers (https://archive.is/dLrMl) as a warning before they get Nuked.

Thanks for the suggestion that one just mentions "default trust" rather than a ranking on it. My feeling is that it isn't worth mentioning if one is just a basic member though. I'll remove the mentions when I get the chance later.

I've run a metal recycling business, and I currently sell .com domain names, and I have an involvement in crypto, each of those businesses id full of scammers thieves and frauds, and a reputation for honesty is difficult to achieve and to maintain. Since the takeover of escrow.com, and all the problems they had with payment, and the $600 million dollar penalty imposed on PayPal a few years ago, I am cautious about paying 3rd parties for an escrow service. The exception is the Name Solo market place, but they have stopped paying out in Bitcoin. I do my own research to discover if a person is to be trusted, and I haven't had too many failures. I'm not very well known in the worldof the Internet, so I feel that I need to publish some associations to build credibility, and I thought that DT1 would be one such association. I'm not sure of the value of the Jet Cash account including the domain JetCash.com and the alt accounts, but I suspect it is well above the value of my average domain name sales. Just to clarify, neither my accounts or the domain are for sale.

I'm concerned that trust here is a matter of winning a lottery, and it can be removed if one id offline for a few days - how does a short posting holiday affect one's trustworthiness.If Theymos did remove me manually, then it is a bit of a slap in the face, and I'm not sure what I have done to provoke that, so I am assuming that the decision to remove me was made by the lottery script. At the moment. my feeling is to ignore the Default Trust system here, and wait for a trading related system if it ever arrives.

It doesn't, but it makes sense for DT1 to require some activity, as they're the "guardians" of DT2.
There are several DT2-ratings that should be removed by now, but they're still active because the user hasn't been online for months. Some of them will never be online again. At least that can't happen to DT1.

Yeah I feel you, I can't also suggest you to visit the marketplace for you to trade for that place has full of scammer with people getting red trust still going to scam and able to scam to new comers that has no idea about the scam events in that section and the trust system.

Giving red trust will be also a difficult decision to do because purely accusation may result to something wrong in the implementation of the Trust System. I had seen some trolling about this because they had been disappointed by the system itself. They say that the trust system not really works well with users that are here abusing the trust system.

For now, the trust system works best but not all the time that it was being utilized well and are still subject for abuses. The real question is how to get away from the accusations from the trolls that says the Trust system is completely a mess for them as they mention it. However, I still do believe in other users that are DT1 and are doing good and doing their responsibility even if they did not get paid just to make a tag for the scammers and fraud people out their. It so hard for now but I think in the future everything will be change. There is always a constant change for everything and the forum is still in the process of that change.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there Loyce. I'm rubbish as a guardian of DT2, as I just put people on ignore, rather than tagging them and getting into flame wars. I'm not sure i am qualified to determine if a person is and ICO or alt scammer. That doesn't mean that you couldn't trust me with your wallet though, and this is why I think the system needs to be renamed. Outsiders will not be aware of the distinction, and will assume that trust relates to trading activity.

It doesn't help that everything is called "trust". This is how I put it:

Look at this!
52 53 inclusion!!!

https://i.imgur.com/rfUwn5m.png

Consider making a stat to show the list of users of top 100 inclusions. I guess you and theymos will have the most number.

I see Jet Cash is still hustling in the topic. Did anyone redirect him to the Trust page changed topic created by theymos when he changed it a year ago?

Yep - I read it, but that doesn't mean that I understand all the nuances and wrinkles. It seems that there are a few other people who agree that it is a bit wrinkly. :)

I dunno I think I like this idea. Don't keep a static list and keep moving people round instead kinda makes more sense... Its a more stable form of meritocracy?

See loyce.club/trust/ranking/ (https://loyce.club/trust/ranking/) (and it's explanation (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5107427.0)).

I'm at 64 - maybe I need to go to the currency board and buy some Bitcoin or something.

You can but don't do it with The Pharmacist :-D

So AI does not miss much. Useful.

Dynamic obviously and the list above is dynamic.

It took me few weeks to figure out how it's working after the change. So, you are pretty faster if you have noticed it on the other day.

Can you explain your reasoning on that? I like the rotating more ( I mean the entire system is clearly nothing like a meritocracy  and is dangerous) but explain why rotating would make it a meritocracy over leaving the most included in.

Or is that not what you meant?  I am genuinely curious.