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Author Topic: LoyceV's Beginners guide to correct use of the Trust system  (Read 1279 times)
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LoyceV
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October 10, 2019, 03:37:17 PM
Last edit: December 05, 2019, 06:20:45 PM by LoyceV
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 #1

I still see users, including high ranking accounts, who use the Trust system incorrectly. For the Trust system to be properly functioning while being decentralized, it's crucial that as many users as possible understand the difference between "feedback" and "Trust lists". Confusingly, the forum uses the word "Trust" for both.

Once you fully understand the system, it's important to start using it:
  • Did you do a trade in which you risked funds? Leave feedback!
  • Did you see users who left accurate Trust feedback on many accounts? Add them to your Trust list!
Anyone can leave feedback, and anyone can customize their Trust list!

But first, keep reading, so you're sure you know the difference.

Since this is a beginners guide, I'll only cover the most important parts. I can't cover all details here, but even without knowing all the details, many people can improve how they use the Trust system.

I created TrustTestUser to aid in creating screenshots and links. Please don't consider this as leaving positive feedback to my alt, I don't intend to use this account for anything else.



Don't confuse your Trust list with feedback
Trust feedback: leave feedback to people you trust or don't trust. Or leave neutral comments.
Trust list: a list of people who's judgement on others you trust (username) or don't trust (~username).



Trust feedback
Trust feedback (Positive/Neutral/Negative) can be used to express your opinion about someone's trustworthiness. In other words: would you trust or have you trusted this user with your money?

Where to find it: Click on a username to go to the user's profile, then click Trust to see their Trust summary (depending on the board it can also be shown under the username).
After clicking it, you're on the user's Trust summary. Read the description per Type carefully:
      New feedback loading...
Note that the description for Positive, Neutral and Negative is different than it was 4 months ago: it was changed when Trust Flags were introduced.

Positive (shown as +1)
  • If you made a small deal with someone, that doesn't deserve positive feedback.
  • If you made a deal in which you risked a substantial amount of money with someone, and all went well, that deserves positive feedback.
  • If someone is a nice guy (or girl), that doesn't deserve positive feedback.
  • If you believe someone can be trusted, even when you didn't trade with him, that too deserves positive feedback.

Neutral (shown as =1)
  • Use Neutral feedback for anything that doesn't mean someone can or can't be trusted. This can be good feedback, for instance when someone helped you out.
  • I think Neutral Feedback is currently undervalued on Bitcointalk. It's a great tool to de-escalate without drastic consequences. Please use it when appropriate.

Negative (shown as -1)
  • If you believe someone is a scammer, or someone is likely to scam, that deserves negative feedback. Please provide evidence.
  • If you really hate someone and he's a terrible troll, that does not deserve negative feedback.

The result after receiving feedback once for each Type:
      +1 / =1 / -1 loading...

Comments
Write a clear description. Keep it as short as possible without leaving things out. If your comment gets too long, create a topic in Reputation or Scam Accusations to refer to.
Try to be objective. If you stick to the facts, people are more likely to take your feedback seriously than if you resort to name calling.

Use Reference links
A Reference link provides more background information about the Feedback. This is very helpful for others to assess whether or not your judgement was correct.
You can use a Webpage archive to preserve evidence when needed for your Reference link.

Be the bigger man!
With great power comes great responsibility (source unknown). Especially when you're on DefaultTrust (or if you want to be on DefaultTrust in the future), you shouldn't (ab)use that power by leaving (negative) feedback when someone does something you don't like. Your Sent feedback is what others use to judge your judgement.
If someone on the internet is mean to you: boo fucking hoo! Use the Ignore button, and forget about them.

Delete feedback
You can delete feedback by visiting the user's Trust sumary. Any feedback left by you has a link to (Delete) it:
      Trust summary for TrustTestUser loading...
Please delete feedback when it's no longer appropriate. You can for instance replace old negative feedback by new neutral feedback when the situation justifies it. If the situation is the other way around, I suggest to leave the old neutral feedback, and add new negative feedback.

Do's and Don'ts
  • Don't leave positive feedback for your own alt account (use neutral comments for this).
  • Don't leave negative feedback when someone violates the forum rules. Instead, use Report to moderator for rule violations.
  • Do leave mutual neutral feedback if you want to show which alt account(s) belong to you.
  • Don't leave (negative) feedback based on retaliation.
  • Don't leave (positive) feedback just because someone left it to you.

These are mere guidelines
Trust isn't moderated, but how you use it is your "business card" to the community. Use the above as guidelines only. It's meant to give you a general idea of what I consider good behaviour. It's also wise to ask yourself before leaving feedback: "Does my feedback make Bitcointalk a better place? And if it's negative: is it worth destroying someone's account and reputation over this?". Consider using Neutral feedback if neither Positive nor Negative is justified.

Trust Flags
I won't cover Trust Flags in details here (for now). The most important thing for creating, Supporting or Opposing Trust Flags is to read very carefully what it says before clicking. If something is incorrect, don't Support it!



Trust list
You should add users who left accurate feedback and have good Trust lists to your Trust list, and you should exclude users who leave inaccurate feedback.
This means your Trust list should be based on how you value the users' judgement on others, and it should not be based on whether or not you Trust those users (with money) or traded with them.
I encourage anyone to create their own custom Trust list! But before you do, please continue reading so you understand the implications.

Where to find it: Click on any user's profile, then click Trust, and click Trust settings.
I recommend to keep DefaultTrust on the list so that you see feedback based on DT1 and DT2 members by default.
You can include any user by adding their name to your Trust list. And you can exclude any user by adding their name with a "~" in front of it. When you're done, click Update. Example:
      Trust list loading...
In the above example, you can see I have excluded cryptohunter, and included guitarplinker and NLNico. DefaultTrust is still on my Trust list too.
Unless you know what you're doing, you should leave the Trust depth at 2.

Implications of making a Trust list
Adding users to your Trust list has large recursive implications because the users you trust directly (Depth 0) make you trust the ones they trust (Depth 1), and the users they trust (Depth 2) (see details beyond beginner level).
Once you have a custom Trust list, you'll see different Trust scores than users without a custom Trust list. You can always add ;dt to any URL to view the forum as if you didn't set a custom Trust list (see this example).

Public record
Note that all Trust lists are public: theymos publishes a weekly list, which I use for my Trust list viewer.  I keep historic records (currently 38 weekly snapshots). You can use this tool, to asses which users you deem worthy to include on your own Trust list.
I don't censor data: your choices will remain visible even after you change it, so choose wisely.

Do's and Don'ts
  • Don't add users to your Trust list because they've added you!
  • Don't exclude users from your Trust list based on retaliation. It's okay to trust someone's judgement, even when he doesn't trust yours.
  • Don't add someone to your Trust list because you had a trade with them. Even if you trust them with money, that doesn't mean you should trust their judgement on others. I think this is the most common mistake made on Trust lists!
  • It's okay to include your alt-account on your own Trust list. This means you trust the feedback you left from that account. Example:
    Quote
    hilariousandco Trusts these users' judgement:
    7. hilariousetc (Trust: +3 / =1 / -0) (1725 Merit earned) (Trust list) (BPIP)
  • Don't include your main account from your alt account(s). This could influence DT1-voting, and although that's not part of this guide, it's bad.



DefaultTrust
DefaultTrust (or DT) has several Trust depth levels, and is set to depth 2 for anyone who didn't change it. This means that feedback left by all DT1 and DT2 members is by default shown for all users. Don't worry about this for now, it's not the main concern of this topic.
Any feedback left by you, always shows as Trusted to you. But it depends on other users' Trust settings whether or not it shows as Trusted to them.

DT1 voting
Depending on certain criteria (which fall beyond the scope of this topic), creating your own Trust makes you eligible to vote for DT1-members, and/or you can be selected for DT1 yourself. Once you're on DT1, the users included on your Trust list reach DT2, which means their feedback is shown by default too. That's a big responsibility, but as long as you (and the majority of other users too) use Trust properly, the voting system should work even if you don't fully understand it.


No spam
If you quote the entire OP, I'll delete your post.


Translations for local boards

I'd appreciate it if users translate this topic for their local boards, so we can get more users to use the Trust system the way it is designed.
If you're translating this topic, please post a link, so I can add them here.



Help me improve this topic, if anything is unclear or missing: please post it Smiley

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October 11, 2019, 02:37:09 PM
Last edit: October 12, 2019, 08:14:38 AM by LoyceV
 #2

Reserved

TODO:
Maybe you can add about "Trusted" and "Untrusted feedback". I think this is good to know how if Non-DT give Trust Feedback for a member, I appreciate  Abhiseshakana who gives additional info about Trusted and Untrusted feedback at Indonesian version (jump to post.)

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October 11, 2019, 02:57:12 PM
 #3

This is beyond ridiculous. If you need a guide this long to describe something as basic as trust feedback you know that most people are not going to use it, worse yet, probably use it incorrectly and spoil it for everyone. And this doesn't even include flags.

Good job describing it tho.

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October 11, 2019, 06:51:21 PM
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 #4

This is beyond ridiculous. If you need a guide this long to describe something as basic as trust feedback you know that most people are not going to use it, worse yet, probably use it incorrectly and spoil it for everyone. And this doesn't even include flags.

Good job describing it tho.

It is not ridiculous at all, good guides are thorough and this is definitely a good one! And because it can be confusing for someone that is  relatively new like myself that is still trying to figure out all ins&outs of this forum, this kind of guide is needed, with each step explained.

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October 11, 2019, 07:32:26 PM
 #5

It is not ridiculous at all, good guides are thorough and this is definitely a good one! And because it can be confusing for someone that is  relatively new like myself that is still trying to figure out all ins&outs of this forum, this kind of guide is needed, with each step explained.

Not the guide, the system is ridiculously complicated. The guide is great tho we shouldn't need it. It's great that you have the time and the patience, but probably less than 1 out of 1000 users will ever see this guide and even fewer will read it and a tiny fraction will understand or follow it.

Unless this thread is pinned, it will be forgotten in a week and even if it's pinned it's going to be just for one board's visitors. It needs to be added to the sites main menu, along with flag, merit, forum rules guides, whatever else is there that users are supposed to know. Even then it's mostly scammers and spammers gonna use it to their advantage. Regular users who come here to talk about crypto don't have interest for this royal court theatre.

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October 11, 2019, 08:02:01 PM
 #6

Agreed this needs to be at least pinned (including the local boards), so users have a chance to brush up on all the minute details as they get more involved with the forum dynamics,

I'll do the Turkish translation and post the link here.

 
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October 11, 2019, 08:10:56 PM
 #7

@LoyceV

Here is the Translation into German !

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5192157.new#new

I have done the thread also in the Beginners section there and i guess or hope that it will helps a few new and also long time Members and Users to understand it !

Great guide by the way  Cool

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October 11, 2019, 11:40:49 PM
Last edit: October 11, 2019, 11:52:52 PM by Vispilio
 #8

Turkish translation is ready LoyceV, you can find it here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5192175.0

I "trust" Wink it's going to clarify a lot of things for the local forums, if it can get sufficient visibility & attention in the beginners section...

 
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October 12, 2019, 12:03:57 AM
 #9


Hello LoyceV.

I was careful reading your guide, as I am translating it.

Take a look here:

Positive (shown as +1)
  • If you believe someone can be trusted, even when you didn't trade with him, that too deserves positive feedback.

Negative (shown as -1)
  • If you really hate someone and he's a terrible troll, that does not deserve negative feedback.


I know this is like a common practice here in bitcointalk, I know you are not inventing this. But I disagree with those points. Aren't they contradictory?

If you think someone is "cool", so yeah, give him a nice feedback, so everyone think he is trusted and he has a green +1 on his account. If you think someone is a troll, don't paint him red.

Shouldn't both situations have the same approuch?

IMO, both feedbacks, in those cases, should be NEUTRAL.

"Nice guy" or "I hate this troll", as neutral.
There are so many "nice guy" feedbacks with positives trusts here, as there are many "troller' with red feedbacks

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October 12, 2019, 12:43:44 AM
 #10

Maybe you can add about "Trusted" and "Untrusted feedback". I think this is good to know how if Non-DT give Trust Feedback for a member, I appreciate  Abhiseshakana who gives additional info about Trusted and Untrusted feedback at Indonesian version (jump to post.)

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October 12, 2019, 01:07:10 AM
 #11

Portuguese translation: [Guia] Como utilizar o sistema de Trust (confiança) do fórum corretamente

Good job, Loyce.

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October 12, 2019, 08:28:14 AM
Merited by Foxpup (4)
 #12

@masulum @Lafu @madnessteat @Vispilio @TryNinja:
Thank you for translating, 5 translations within a day means a lot!



If you need a guide this long to describe something as basic as trust feedback you know that most people are not going to use it, worse yet, probably use it incorrectly and spoil it for everyone.
People are already using Trust incorrectly, which is why I made this guide. The Trust system isn't perfect, but the functionality it offers can be very useful when used in the right way. One of the reasons it's so "complicated", is because theymos wants it to be decentralized. The Trust system was much simpler when theymos hand-picked all DT1-members. That system wasn't perfect either, which is why theymos changed it. In the old system, most users didn't need to understand things because they'd never reach DT1 or DT2. Now, many more people get a vote.
Most of what I wrote down is kinda trivial anyway, but different people (especially with a worldwide mixture of different cultures) have different interpretations.

Not the guide, the system is ridiculously complicated. The guide is great tho we shouldn't need it. It's great that you have the time and the patience, but probably less than 1 out of 1000 users will ever see this guide and even fewer will read it and a tiny fraction will understand or follow it.
If someone uses Trust incorrectly, posting a link to this topic is much easier than explaining all the details. And that's the reason I created this topic.



Positive (shown as +1)
  • If you believe someone can be trusted, even when you didn't trade with him, that too deserves positive feedback.

Negative (shown as -1)
  • If you really hate someone and he's a terrible troll, that does not deserve negative feedback.
I know this is like a common practice here in bitcointalk, I know you are not inventing this. But I disagree with those points. Aren't they contradictory?

If you think someone is "cool", so yeah, give him a nice feedback, so everyone think he is trusted and he has a green +1 on his account. If you think someone is a troll, don't paint him red.
I think we mean the same thing. I didn't say to give positive trust when someone is a nice guy, I said you can leave positive feedback if you believe he can be Trusted.
Example:
I left this positive feedback to micgoossens, even though I never traded with him:
Quote
micgoossens has hosted several "Bitcoin price prediction games", and pays the prizes out of his own pocket.
As far as I've seen, he has paid all of them. Several more prediction games are still running, and I trust he'll pay those too.
Please join, even though it reduces my odds :P
Although micgoossen is a nice guy, that's not why I left the feedback. I left it, because I believe he's true to his word.
As another example, I received neutral feedback from Devawnm367:
Quote
LoyceV helped me generate a Vanity wallet!!! I have wanted to do so for years!!! He did it in a matter of a few minutes! Plus a very trustworthy Member If it was anyone else I would have 2nd guessed it Thanks LoyceV!
I believe those two examples use the correct Type of feedback.

To take away all confusion, I've added this:
Positive (shown as +1)
  • If someone is a nice guy (or girl), that doesn't deserve positive feedback.

"Nice guy" or "I hate this troll", as neutral.
There are so many "nice guy" feedbacks with positives trusts here, as there are many "troller' with red feedbacks
Agreed!



Maybe you can add about "Trusted" and "Untrusted feedback". I think this is good to know how if Non-DT give Trust Feedback for a member, I appreciate  Abhiseshakana who gives additional info about Trusted and Untrusted feedback at Indonesian version (jump to post.)
Good suggestion, I've added it to my TODO.

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October 12, 2019, 12:29:36 PM
Last edit: October 12, 2019, 07:29:20 PM by Yatsan
 #13

I will make the Filipino translation of it, I will post the link later Smiley

edit: Here is the link of the translation Smiley
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5192398.msg52737619#msg52737619

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|ROULETTE
MINES
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CRASH
──── ─── ─
1miau
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October 12, 2019, 05:25:44 PM
Merited by LoyceV (1)
 #14

As already mentioned:

Outstanding guide, it's a very good read!



Positive (shown as +1)
  • If you made a small deal with someone, that doesn't deserve positive feedback.
  • If someone is a nice guy (or girl), that doesn't deserve positive feedback.
  • If you made a deal in which you risked a substantial amount of money with someone, and all went well, that deserves positive feedback.
  • If you believe someone can be trusted, even when you didn't trade with him, that too deserves positive feedback.
To determine the trustworthiness of an user I'm always recommending to mention the risked amount of money directly in the trust comments (can be in USD or in BTC). While I use the reference link more as a "proof" that my feedback is valid and the deal happened, I prefer to write the risked amount also directly in the comments. That way it's very easy for potential trading partners to have a quick look on how much money the user risked for his deals.
I often come across vague descriptions where I have to search quite long on how much money was on risk and displaying that directly in the comments would help a lot to save time and still get an accurate impression of the user.

But sometimes it's a difficult question at which point the risked amount of money is "substantial", so I recommend to be a little bit more liberal here and give positive trust. Then it's important to mention the risked amount to avoid many confusions and indicate it. People should be aware that more than the risked amount of previous trades with that user might put them on risk getting scammed, so I consider that part as very important. (of course, an user can also scam you when less money is involved than in previous trades).

Before the last trust update, there was a box for "risked amount of BTC" and I'm still hoping that'll come back.


And maybe you can add a link below that part (about positive / neutral / negative feedback) to the community list collected by xtraelv, when negative trust is appropriate and when it's not:
Discussion about acceptable and unacceptable behavior. Community values. DT.

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October 14, 2019, 01:50:54 AM
Last edit: October 14, 2019, 02:06:45 AM by masulum
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), LoyceV (1), Heisenberg_Hunter (1)
 #15

Trust FeedBack and Trust List Guide in Image. I hope with this image, member more easy to understand.






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October 14, 2019, 02:31:26 PM
Last edit: October 14, 2019, 02:52:10 PM by fillippone
 #16

Italian Translation:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5043394.msg52756616#msg52756616

I inserted the translation as a post on the existing Trust related thread on the Italian Board.
Thread moderator is going to edit all the relevant information on the OP.

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October 14, 2019, 03:26:16 PM
 #17

This is truly an excellent guide to the use of the Trust system, and for the first time in years I've *almost* understood how it works.
LoyceV has well done a much needed job.
But I can't but agree with what others have pointed out, that the Trust system of the forum is in itself too complicated to be widely adopted - which is leading to a quite unsolvable problem: to really work well, the Trust system should be widely used by most of the community, but it being so complicated this will likely never happen, unless a way is found to make it a bit simpler.
I'll make some attempts to start to use it.

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In Partnership With

 
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October 14, 2019, 03:35:22 PM
 #18

This guide is absolutely amazing.   Hopefully forum members both old and new adhere to it.   Things have been very civil lately and it seems like drama has been kept to a minimum.  Merit left.

 
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October 16, 2019, 01:43:51 PM
 #19

Is there a way to check my profile trust as  if I never used the trust list?

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October 16, 2019, 01:46:35 PM
Merited by bitmover (1)
 #20

Is there a way to check my profile trust as  if I never used the trust list?

You mean through DT? Just add ;dt at the end of the url.

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