Bitcoin Forum

why I call it a ponzi     because late comers pay for the early adapters with their cost of bitcoin is almost nothing
in early days of bitcoin people just mine it for fun........

why I call it a bubble    have you ever seen any investment can start with almost nothing and went up all the way to over 60,000 dollar per coin  in a decade time?

even if you count it from $1 per coin  to over $60,000   that is over 6,000,000% return in investment 


what do you think?

may be it is just my silly thought....

please comment.    thank you.

Have you seen a ponzi scheme that has last this long and remain sustainable?
Bitcoin is a revolutionary and very useful tech/currency. If you remove the deflationary feature it will still be revolutionary and very useful. Fortunately, this feature is as important as other Bitcoin features... It needs to exist along side other features for optimal performance.

Nope. Or it not until now at least. That's why he said "the biggest bubble and ponzi in the universe"!  ;D


Nah, let us simply refer to it as "bubble and ponzi". That way, we can skip all of that techno babel.

I can imagine that people with little technical background would struggle to grasp what Bitcoin and blockchain technology represent, but wouldn't it be better for them to try to learn as much as possible rather than brag publicly about their ignorance?

Do you also say Gold or crude are bubble? These two have not also remain stagnant, they move and fluctuate just as bitcoin do. Bitcoin is only different regarding price because no body regulates it. Bitcoin is deflationary and decentralised with no government influence, therefore it should move to any direction as the demand and supply interacts on it.

Crude also do increase in international markets especially when a huge supplying country has an issue that affects her supply or if the OPEC for example come out with policy capable to affect supply or pricing, then you notice changes in price. Bitcoin is therefore no bubble but an asset that people willingly invest in without any third party.

It’s great to invite some fud, crypto is not a stranger to being labelled bubble/ponzi, however I would think bitcoin is a great social experiment, it’s success has to all come from the its user base, voluntarism, some hate it some like it, notoriously bitcoin was hatred by central bank.

Do you even know what a Ponzi scheme is ?
Let me just go to wiki and give you the description.

Now the source of profit of bitcoins is not the new investment rather the increase of the value of the remaining one. If you do think it's ponzi scheme then you cannot be more wrong.
The demand and supply makes sure to put the value of the particular existing crypto higher and as you see companies like Tesla are already investing in it which have started a new era of corporate adoption. Which is causing price to increase at a higher rate than expected , which indeed is something that might cause doubts for people who are not familiar with this ecosystem.
You think you know more than the companies who are like major bears in the IT industry since it seems like their financial advisors are all into bitcoins these days.
1. Learn about crypto
2. Learn about ponzi schemes for real.


I do think it is much more than a social experiment is the road to achieving financial freedom and stability since banks and the Government have led to nowhere since years.

>>https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5330121.msg56766662#msg56766662
>is much more than a social experiment
Being social able is a big part, to get more people to use the currency, it has to reach many people, it would have been worthless when little to nobody want to use the currency, the social help a lot to gain traction, spread the word about the coins and will have more people to use it. Although I can’t grasp the freedom part, there isn’t much freedom to be said.

@rc4739, I took the liberty of looking at your history on a bitcoin forum, so let's recap:

is there someone holding  bitcoin from early 2010 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5320722.msg56460168#msg56460168)
The whole idea of Bitcoin is by Steve Jobs... (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5323757.msg56560666#msg56560666)
can we just reset the diffuculty level back to 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5324557.msg56588282#msg56588282)
Is bitcoin for speculation only? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5326149.msg56638005#msg56638005)
Why did you buy bitcoin? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5328304.msg56706285#msg56706285)
I think Bitcoin is the biggest bubble and ponzi in the universe (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5330121.msg56766273#msg56766273)

So I wonder what's next? Do you have any other stupid ideas?

You don't seem to have any respect for this community and seem to be simply trolling around. Am I right?
Prove me wrong.

As usual, when somebody misses the train, he complains and tells negativities to just let go of what he feels about it. Have you forgotten about how mining works?
It's one of the backends why bitcoin is valuable, think about how much energy consumption that it got for its network to keep going. It's like the gold reserve of bitcoin.

As long as you're willing to admit UBI, stocks, markets and all business are also ponzi schemes under your definition. I don't have a big issue with it. Apple stock could be labeled a ponzi scheme under your definition. Late comers who buy apple stock pay for the early adopters. Gold could be labeled a ponzi scheme using that definition. Real estate would be a ponzi scheme using your definition. Everything would be a ponzi scheme.

The reason ponzi scheme carries a negative connotation involves them being unsustainable and carrying a high probability of failure. Deception and lack of full disclosure in ponzi schemes are also a major problem, which is why they're illegal for the private sector. A normal ponzi scheme is structured differently from the definition you're using. It defines a stream of diminishing returns where liabilities will grow at a faster rate than assets and income. Guaranteeing a point of critical failure. The pyramid structure of a ponzi scheme is also a key trait.


https://i.imgur.com/XWmqLzA.jpg

You can checkout the above mentioned stocks and track their performance over a 10 year period. Netflix, disney, tesla. All 3 have shown impressive percentage gains over a span of around 10 years.

https://i.imgur.com/45UeUQS.png

Then we have currencies like the zimbabwe dollar and venezuelan bolivar hyperinflating. They exhibit impressive percentage movement but in which direction.

can you just tell me   which investment in this world can up 60000 fold in just  ten years
and is it for real?

but bitcoin did it..

when the price of a single bitcoin reach par with the dollar on 2011 and it's now trading at over 60,000 dollar

if you don't call it a bubble   then what you call it?   a miracle?


many buyers of bitcoin nowaday doesn't seems to know that
they just want to make a quick profit out of it

also if you look at the trading pattern  most people just buy a small amount of it   

the volume looks like this

0.001
0.018
0.008
0.005

just a few hundred dollar mostly     no serious buyer outthere

and the so call bitcoin exchange outthere     they execute the buy and sell order by matching it and  then cancel it out
before put it into the blockchain so that it looks like the transaction is in real time but actually it isn't

YOUR TRANSACTION NEVER APPEAR IN THE BLOCKCHAIN

If you don't mind we can all agree that early investors are just early believers and the investors who have not heard of BTC before until today are late believers. Well they pay for being early believers, they waited too. But don't worry, if you buy today you will still be considered early believers by the time comes when it's more than $60K. 

 we are all late comer now
              the price already pass 60K

              by the way i want to double my 100 dollar investment in bitcoin this year
              hopefully it will become 200 dollar   when bitcoin reach 100K
              cheers.....

               my 100 dollar bill can buy up to 0.0017 bitcoin at the current price  :D

               its better than late   then never    cheers...

I think the biggest bubble is that piece of paper you are holding which is worth nothing and backed by nothing but the mere words of dead people saying it should worth something. The same goes to that other piece of paper with equal size and made from the same material but which is said to be 10 times the worth of another simply because it has a different print on it. 

Ponder on it. Isn't it a lot sillier than a hard-coded payment system with built-in currency which is beyond the control of anybody?

With that idea, I suppose literally EVERYTHING is a ponzi scheme then I suppose? Early investors would just suck the money of late investors for nothing blah blah idea is pretty stupid ngl. Not to mention that Bitcoin isn't even a ponzi scam, it's just a legitimate asset that runs on a supply and demand basis. It's like comparing a two-way (beneficial) relationship to a one-sided(parasitic) relationship.
I'm not gonna deny it, a lot of people look at Bitcoin as a quick way to get rich (which it isn't), but it is the first thing that most people would think of when they hear the idea of Bitcoin. And? Is there anything specifically wrong with that? Traders invest to profit, businesses plan out projects to profit, people work to profit, so is there anything wrong with people thinking of Bitcoin as an investment to profit?

And don't bloody use an exchange if you think of it as such, no one is really forcing you.

Nice another troll in the forum, I am pretty sure that if bitcoin is a bubble, it should have burst a long time ago, your the kind of people who are bitter that they didn't bought bitcoin at a lower price so you try to tell other people that bitcoin to discourage them to get in and have someone share sentiment with your senseless beliefs and ideas.

Your perspective of things might harm you. Bitcoin being ponzi isn't right due to the fact that early adopters knew that the demand of BTC might bloom. Supply and demand determines the price of any coin out there and you should know that.

I think you should learn  what the proper definition of a Ponzi scheme is.

As it is not what you believe ponzi scheme is.

if gold could be mined in someones back yard with just a spoon and a coffee filter ($2/ounce) the gold prices would not maintain at $1800.. people would sell it down to something like $6

yep with mining costs being say $900+ 'value' and then some speculative overpricing of an extra <100% brings gold to its 'price'


with bitcoin. in germany with $0.38/kwh electric it cost $72k to mine bitcoin. so if they can buy it cheaper than they can mine it for.. they will
and if china with $0.04/kwh electric it cost $21k to mine bitcoin. so if they can mine and then sell for higher.. they will*

its this value meter $21k-$72k that is the window of the bottom limit people wont dare sell below and the upper limit people wont dare buy above

yes america has a ~cost of $33k per btc uk has a $42k per btc
meaning if the price moved down below $42k UK miners will slow down on mining and go on a buying frenzy
meaning if the price moved down below $33k US miners will slow down on mining and go on a buying frenzy
 as its far cheaper to buy it than mine it

these factors are all at play in the background giving bitcoin some background underlying value..
20% strong at ~$37k 50% strong at $27k and 98% strong at $21k**

yes the prices above $37k can feel speculative/volatile and full of just pure emotion trading. but there is actually underlying value at play hidden below

..
so play the gold backyard spoon or excavator game
if gold cost $900 because it requires expensive excavators and diesel to mine. is golds supply value 0 or somewhere above $900

yes the speculative 'bubble' is whatever is above $900 where a 2x might seem like a ready to burst bubble thats not sustainable where as a 30% profit is reasonable and of accepted value

so if you live in america knowing you could mine for $33k a coin.. or for a little extra you can just buy it and not have the hassle of setting up hardware and facilities and paying bills continuously.. how much premium would you consider as value and worth paying for a btc

*(mining hardware in the 165exa range is a $15k cost (9 month ROI) plus $1.5k per 1cent electric(i done the complicated maths then simplified it for this demo))
** based on mining demographics and electric prices (china33%US21%russia6%india6%japan6%...)

Not to mention that you can mine anonymously if you choose to do so.
You can write off many expenses.
You can push the income forward via buying more mining gear for expenses.

Better yet if you have a property that can use solar power as an improvement mining will allow you to make demand.

Lets say you have a dry goods warehouse for many tractor trailers.
It uses very little power. It has a huge roof.
You can put 1 megawatt of panels on the roof. But you use almost no power. Fill a small section with miners create a power bill big enough to allow the 1 megawatt solar array.

an array lasts about 25-30 years. it pays off in 10 years. unless coins go up an you pay off that array in 2 or 3 years.

So basically btc mining ⛏ has many values do to the power usage it can do.
Btw if you mine for five years on that array and move the miners to a new warehouse you could do it again.

this would allow you to have 2  one megawatt arrays that your mining gear helped to create.

No, you are not late because you still have a chance to make money from crypto. When you are in cryptocurrency, your chance will not just come from bitcoin, but you also have a chance from altcoin, and your chance in altcoin will be bigger because, with so many altcoin lists, you only need to find and research the coin.

It is not easy to say I want to double $100 in bitcoin in the next year and make it to $100k in the next year because no one will know what suppose happen to bitcoin.

Once again, bitcoin is not a rich scheme way, but with having an effort to earn money from bitcoin and doing many things to earn that, you will have the opportunity to make money or double your investment someday.

Obviously no. Because it's not only late comers buying bitcoin nowadays. Also the old adapters is still accumulating btc for their own wealth. You have to read more information about what ponzi is. Seems like you don't understand how it works.

Thus far it is still in existence and more and more people are beginning to see the value that is why even those that where there when it started and did not join in are joining in now even as the price continues to grow. 

THAT IS THE EFFECT OF ADOPTION. Like I said, People have come to understand what Bitcoin was created for and how it can set you free from a lot of burden by other financial institution. A natural law of Economics, Demand. Now every one wants a piece of Bitcoin and it is even more difficult to mine now so you do the maths.   

It is funny how that many people still don't understand what bitcoin and how it works. Bitcoin isn't some ponzi scheme that promises some quick money. Bitcoin is money itself. Bitcoin is a digital currency that was created to give people control over their own money and finances. With bitcoin, you're your own bank.
Now, when bitcoin was created, its value was very low and only few people believed in it. These people bought back then, holding it till now when it's worth a lot. That's not a ponzi scheme, I'd say that's a reward for their bravery for taking the risk back then.
If you're talking about bitcoin being a bubble, then it's because you don't understand how the market works. You don't understand the law of supply and demand. The price of bitcoin now is as a result of the adoption of bitcoin in the mainstream world over the years.

I guess you are referring to centralized exchanges at the top bolded part.
Anyway, transactions are supposed to be real-time, peer-to-peer and decentralized. You can mostly get that on truly decentralized trading exchanges that enable traders with nodes/wallets trade with each other within a decentralized network. Unfortunately, traders trade with each other within  typical centralized exchanges .

What i understand about ponzi scheme is when someone convince you to invest your money and  promised you high returns with no risk like double your money in a short period of time. Bitcoin is not like that because investing in bitcoin is high risk because of price volatility and all the people who understand bitcoin know this.

Explain, please, what does the internal transactions of a centralized currency exchange have to do with the blockchain transactions?
If you don't know how exchanges work, don't comment. You're just showing the level of your ignorance. No wonder you can't take advantage of this phenomenon.

Based on what you've written in this forum so far, I have just one suggestion: don't overlook the value of basic education.
No brain, no gain. Stay in school.

The biggest ponzi and bubble in the world is fiat currency without any argument. And it is a bubble which is worth $100 trillion plus as of now (and increasing at a rate of around 20% per year). Compared to fiat, Bitcoin is only worth 1% of that amount. And moreover, unlike fiat Bitcoin can't be created from thin air, as it is protected by the principle of controlled supply. Obviously for proponents of fiat currency, Bitcoin will sound like ponzi.

Is tesla or amazon stock a ponzi because peoe buying now are buying from people who bought it cheaper?  Thats not the sign of a ponzi.  Yeah its been a pretty crazy rise but maybe this experiment is just working the way it was intended to

Agree, bitcoin's investment model does not belong to a pyramid scheme, that means it's not a form where a pioneer can make money from newbies, almost everyone's capitalization will change based on their calculation and target choice, some newcomers can still make better money than the old, sometimes the old is outdated and attacked by this market. Although bitcoin is not a ponzi but it is truly a giant bubble because the actual feature is too universal and doesn't stand out but the value always surpasses very high thresholds due to the manipulation of investors

I noticed that this thread was just a clickbait for the reader to see, and sadly whatever it contained was just a little bit of wild opinion.  If the OP says BTC is only a ponzi scheme, maybe the OP reads less and needs more education so that the post is better.  Include a data-based opinion so that whatever is said can still be considered.  If the OP thinks all of these are ponzi then the worst ponzi schemes are the fiat you are currently using.  The fiat equivalent of BTC is a medium of exchange for all transactions.  Where's the ponzi scheme?

ponzi? from the definition it is very much different from the current state of bitcoin, ponzi will simply make the roots underneath hurt. whereas in bitcoin that is not the case, either as a form of appreciation for a prize when a miner hangs out with some friends until you get a bonus. You have to know in a Ponzi scheme there are parties who are disadvantaged, while in bitcoin, whether you are under the root, you will know how big the potential is in the future.


Think about it, that there is a red line, the definition of bitcoin mining with a Ponzi scheme that causes losses to many parties.

Feel pity to you since you still think about this way and imagine how much profit you lost for thinking negative about bitcoin, you should do more research about it since this is not made as ponzi type schemes.

Also I don't know if you really mean this since I have thoughs that you want to promote something that's why you are saying this to us right now.

I won't go with the word Ponzi because it is not a Ponzi which is meant to be a game in which you put money and some people somewhere promise to double it up and mostly crashed after a while. Bitcoin is a real investment and not a game is for a serious-minded person.  For the bubble, I will disagree with it also because bitcoin is volatile in nature.

You see, it's like a miracle but not a miracle but a fact ;D the thing is, it's not ponzi scheme, it's very much kind of demand vs supply, as Bitcoin gets more popular and more investors buying in because of fear of missing off, then the price increase is hugely justified :) if it was a ponzi scheme, you would have seen huge number of people are leaving at the same rate at which people are buying in, but most of early investors or traders are still holding, making it something valuable and something to hold onto ;)

We can keep hearing this till the next 50 years and bitcoin will keep having relevance in our lives. The bubble misunderstanding has been on ever since the beginning and I don't expect it will go away. For ponzi scheme which is more fraud and deceit, bitcoin is nothing like any of such. Bitcoin is not marketing of any product like the ponzi.

I think it would be better if you'll know what Ponzi is first. Bitcoin has passed all the tests of time and I don't see any reason to doubt it. Its volatility is a part of its character but things will still depend on how we deal with it. Failing in trading or investing shouldn't be the reason for us to accuse Bitcoin of fraud. You better know how it really works before saying bad things against it.

You are in a bitcoin forum, and not only you are in one bitcoin forum you are in the one bitcoin forum, the one created by satoshi, so it is obvious that you are going to face a lot of criticism about this, about your first point if that is what it means to be a Ponzi for you well then every single investment that has ever been made qualifies as a Ponzi, I suggest to you that you look at the meaning of the term before you decide unilaterally what is and what is not a Ponzi, then you say that bitcoin is a bubble and while there is no doubt that sometimes the price of bitcoin can be in a bubble bitcoin itself is not a bubble which is a big difference.

Better study first before we topic about this ponzi scheme about bitcoins. This coin has many rough battle encountered to bloom. Yes it is a bubble, time to time his price is unpredictable and we don't know who's controlling it about the price and the circulating supply is unknown because some of the bitcoins has been forget their addresses in blockchain.

Trust me, whatever you think at the moment about bitcoin (ponzi scheme and bubble) is a stupid story you might know from those who disagree with the existence of bitcoin.

Bitcoin is not a giant ponzi scheme as you might think. The main reason is bitcoin never promises you and whoever buy will make a big profit. The price of bitcoin is based entirely on supply and demand, and it is only these people who determine the price. Bitcoin never hurts late adopters as both early adopters and late adopters alike will benefit if the price goes up. However, early adopters will get a larger portion because they are willing to buy at a low price. Would you also call bitcoin a ponzi scheme if you bought it for $5000 at the time?

OP, if you believe in a lot of stupid stories about bitcoin so far, take a moment to read more truth about bitcoin here. Myths of Bitcoin (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths).

Alright so you have called bitcoin a Ponzi, so do you think that it is going to die off anytime soon?
I can’t remember any Ponzi that has lasted this long and if you do know any of them maybe you should let me know.

The price is high like this and that’s because the volatility of bitcoin is very high so you’re going to be seeing huge increase like this, and it’s not going to be ending anytime soon, since there are so many investors coming in now, and at the rate they are coming now, the supply is going to be less to occupy them and that means that the demand will surpass the supply and that will lead to further increase of the price.

i think that there is a search function on top of bitcointalk and there is also google. you should use it and search the nonsense you put here and see that every couple of months someone comes here with the same sob story about being a "late comer" and missing out on buying bitcoin cheap.
you think people weren't saying this when bitcoin was just $1000? they did' and they will continue saying it when it reaches $1000000 too. so you better get your head out of the sand sooner.

@OP, it depends on where and to whom you ask. If you ask here in the bitcointalk community, obviously you will get the BTC to the moon kind of answer. Here we are Bitcoin supporters or at least enjoy using/owning BTC. If you ask Roubini-type of people, you will get "go away ponzi shitcoin" kind of answer. Let the time to answer your question.

In a decade?  I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but if you take a look at a long-term stock price chart for a company like Starbucks or eBay, you'll see crazy growth over a relatively short period of time.  Are those two stocks Ponzi schemes?  Nope.  And bitcoin isn't a Ponzi either; it's just an asset that's blowing up in value.

As far as the bubble thing goes....I'm not sure whether bitcoin is currently in one.  That's something you can usually only determine for sure after the bubble pops, and in hindsight it always seems pretty obvious that [pick your asset] was in a bubble.  I would add that unlike the price rise in 2016-17 which was led by individual speculators/investors, this current rise is at least partially due to large corporations accumulating it.  That doesn't mean that demand will remain high, but it probably means that a lot of bitcoin is going to remain off the market, which decreases supply.

But I'm really bad at predicting what bitcoin is going to do.  What I do know is that it isn't a scam or a Ponzi scheme (I initially thought that when I was watching it years ago but changed my mind once I figured out what bitcoin really is and why it's so different than other forms of electronic money).  Could be in a bubble, but we're going to have to wait and see for that.

Do you think those who bought for example Google shares back in the days and now will have the same buy in price? Early adopters are benefiting because they believe while people like you where wasting time hating on btc, calling it ponzi just like you are doing now, don't waste your time posting negative because it won't change anything.

I can never agree that bitcoin is called a big ponzi scheme as the OP stated. Bitcoin is a decentralized asset that can't be controlled by any authority in the world so that users can buy and sell bitcoin as they wish. Afaik, bitcoin can be used as an asset that scammers use to run Ponzi scheme project as we have seen before.

Since the price of bitcoin is determined by the community, you don't have to say it like a ponzi scheme and I find that statement ridiculous. Regardless of the price that bitcoin can reach, I don't think you need to say it's a ponzi scheme. Bitcoin has never tricked us in a decade, it would be totally against the fact to call it a ponzi. Satoshi's idea actually worked to give us a different kind of financial freedom from fiat.

There were a lot of haters and doubters even in the past. They don't like bitcoin and still ignores what it currently has.

Totally, those early haters of bitcoin that has said a lot of negative words about it didn't just waste their time but also wasted the biggest opportunity that will change their lives a lifetime.

Actually the OP has answered his own question about his doubts. But someone has to clarify so that people don't assume bitcoin in the wrong way.

---

Bitcoin is of no use to anyone who hate it, but as users we get a really decent profit. I think the share of profits the early investor had is very fair because they were never promised a return of +6 million% from the start when they bought. I just regret never knowing when bitcoin was worth hundred of dollar. Lol

Well, this is a forum and anyone could really make their own inputs or insights on various things and i cant say that you're totally wrong but saying on the other side of things
then no ponzi would really last up for a decade and with that alone you can tell that this isnt the same to those ponzi that you had known or experienced.

This is a revolutionary project which does focuses on decentralization and anonymity which should be enough for you to tell that this one isnt a ponzi.

It does have relevant usage which could the entire community would able to enjoy and this is what makes popular.

If your logic was true then all stocks, bonds, and just assets in general would be considered a ponzi scheme. Heck, fiat and gold would both be considered ponzis.

There is one very simple reason that disproves all of this - bitcoin has utility as a store of value and a decentralised currency. Its value derives from adoption, and with adoption (retail or institutional) currently skyrocketing, there should be no surprises whatsoever that prices are following suit.

This argument against BTC has been debunked so many times that it's not funny.

As if the newbies are the only way the people here are making money. Besides, bitcoin isn't your "get rich quick" scheme. It is a technology meant to revolutionize the currency world we came to know of. If you think of bitcoin solely as a way to get money, then you're probably new to the industry. Plus, a lot of people have been saying this bubble's going to pop. Yet we're at 63 and bitcoin hasn't even shown any signs of dropping in value.

Bitcoin is not a bubble. Most likely due to ignorance OP affirms this absurdity that some say or for wanting to create false ideas about bitcoin.
The price of bitcoin depends on the supply and demand, also on various circumstances but they are not predominant to end bitcoin.

Sometimes it can be frustrating to feel like you could have invested in bitcoin when the price was lower and is now too high to invest. However, the most accurate analysis about bitcoin is that it will continue its upward race, you have to consider before investing in bitcoin that it is an investment in the future.

Follow PlanB on Twitter for you to understand more about the bitcoin bull run.

https://twitter.com/100trillionUSD/status/1381867553824370689?s=19 (https://twitter.com/100trillionUSD/status/1381867553824370689?s=19)

'Bitcoin is a bubble' is the mind of f*cking idiots...
I have been familiar with cryptocurrencies for almost 3 years, especially Bitcoin, and until now Bitcoin has never made me lose. those who think the earth is flat doesn't matter, those who think Bitcoin is a bubble doesn't matter either, please stay in the bunch of idiots.

Before calling bitcoin a ponzi, you must get aware of characteristics of ponzi schemes from this wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme) page.
But, bitcoin works very similar to stocks where early buyers enjoy big profits due to their decisions of buying and holding. I am not seeing any differences from the characteristics of typical stock markets. Usually ponzi schemes makes its originator rich and to keep attracting new investors he pays to early people from the money we collected from late adopters. Is this how bitcoin market works? No originator (no central authority) and benefits both early and late adopters (based on their holding periods).

Getting into bubble period is the basic characteristics of every stock. Because, over-bought may happen because of hype and no one can be responsible for that but only investors' FOMO. So, bitcoin cannot be an exception.

All stocks and even gold valued in cents in beginning days and then demand decided the current price levels.

Please call all stocks and commodity a bubble if you are not still convinced.

Yes, some people believe cryptocoins are ponzi schemes. But they aren't. Why? Mostly because they are legitimate investments which give you a legitimate return. If you believe Bitcoin is a ponzi, then all asset classes should be considered as ponzi schemes. If you don't know what asset classes mean, google it.


I remember reading an article (https://medium.com/bloomberg-businessweek/why-we-love-to-call-everything-a-bubble-5ab9690428b1) in a business magazine recently. Anyway, one quote stuck with me:
"It is not always easy to explain why assets become expensive, but this does not mean that every risk in the market is about to burst."

Well i guess it's not suitable to be called ponzi, since bitcoin is noway like that. The latecomers have to pay for a big amount since the price is expensive already, however the value is still high, so no matter latecomers or newcomers, i think bitcoin is still valuable and not a ponzi. However, i can't deny the fact that bitcoin might be the biggest bubble though, since i agree with that. Bitcoin is vulnerable to burst anytime, and it's kinda scary. Though of course we know that it's high risk and high return, but it's too risky and bubbly. I hope it wont burst though.

I don't think that bitcoins are a ponzi scheme. The bitcoin price has nowhere been near 1 USD or even 100 USD. Most of the people holding bitcoins at the moment have paid much more. For example I bought my coins when the price was around 10,000 USD. Sure the sellers made some money but now they feel bad for selling in the first place. A ponzi scheme is usually a few people who sell you something and promise higher returns in the future. No one is doing that with bitcoins.

If I say Bitcoin is Ponzi then it is the longest Ponzi I've known. Since Bitcoin is known to the public there have been many rumors and devaluations of Bitcoin, but they do not kill Bitcoin but make Bitcoin stronger. Bitcoin has so far reached $ 64,000. Bitcoin has been brought into their system by many payment units, many hedge funds actively bought in. Based on the above data Bitcoin cannot be Ponzi.

So by OP's logic, millions of people who bought bitcoin could be putting money into a bubble, or Tesla spending 1.5 billion dollars into a bubble, or wall street companies started to put money into a bubble, basically over 2 trillion dollar worth of marketcap all built on top of a bubble. I am not going to say that 60k+ price should be the correct one, it could be 10k or 100k and we do not know what the "value" of bitcoin is, so it will be whatever people think it should be, however one thing I am finding funny is that people think that we should all consider what they should consider and ignore tens of millions of people who do not agree with them.

Even if bitcoin ever drops to 1k dollar one day, that would be 1000x increase from 1 dollars, and we are over 64k right now, think about how much it would have to drop just to have 1000x, that means maybe you could be wrong about this.

Who told you buying at $60k is late? Do you have crystal balls to predict the peak of Bitcoin price before your so called "bubble" burst?

*Bitcoin reaches $1,000, people be like "I think I'll pass I might be late for the party."
*Bitcoin reaches $10,000, people like you be like " oh! I didn't expect that, lucky are those people who bought at the bottom. I'll pass again because this time Bitcoin bubble will going to burst for sure."
*Bitcoin broke the 2017 ATH, people like you be like "Dang! I should've bought at $10,000. Nevermind, Bitcoin is going down after this anyway."
*Bitcoin at the current price, you be like "oh I'm F*ckng late. So, I gotta keep trolling over these community and question Bitcoin's existence with some stupid thoughts.

See you at $100k OP. I'll still be expecting you there to say you're late again.

You clearly don't have any idea of what a ponzi scheme is. According to your definition, then each and every kind of investment is a form of ponzi scheme. Late comers pay for the early, hence you have concluded that bitcoin is a ponzi/pyramid scheme? Then what about gold and other precious metals? Those who mined and bought it early, got it cheap and now people people has to pay more than it was centuries ago. So gold investment or anything similar is a scam? Lets not talk about the bubble lol. Good returns according to you is bubble? The price of bitcoin started from nothing because it is a decentralized coin and no one decides the price. So it started with nothing and as demand started to increase, the price also started to increase.
Yes, your silly thought.

This isn't something that typical triangle scheme or simply a ponzi where people who are on the top are making out money which does simply shows the structure of a ponzi.

Try to look and figure it out this market first before making some conclusions for it to be a ponzi.No it isn't and this market wont really make this big if people do find it out in the first place

or does have that kind of impression.People had trusted up much this project which I cant really blame them off and recognition is on the move and this isn't
something that you can see with those obvious ponzi scams.

Wow, mate.  Historical data has always been a measure of analysis.  For bitcoin, certainly countless people will not be able to forget the devastation scene since the beginning of 2018. Bitcoin bubble begins to concept, communication stronger.  Although bitcoin and crypto have moved into another, flourishing period, be cautious, vigilant and plan.  That's the important thing.

Call bitcoin bubble, it doesn't matter, investment has a risk and people who invest in bitcoin believe that bitcoin is not a bubble.
It's increase maybe unbeliaveable, but it is what it is, ride on it now, make some money or just don't touch it and go to traditional stocks investment.

Bitcoin does drastically increase in price, in just a few years bitcoin has went to 60,000 in value. In those years, the price was quite unstable, and indeed there were big dips in the past. For me, Bitcoin is not a bubble and a ponzi scheme. First of all, it depends on your perspective whether you think it is a bubble or not, it really doesnt matter. Bitcoin has brought huge gains to investors, but it is true that investing comes with risks that you should take into account. It doesnt always go uphill. Second, a ponzi scheme is centralized, while bitcoin is decentralized.

You know what is great about bitcoin that helps all the people that think it could be a ponzi or it could be a bubble? I mean if you live in USA, dollars doesn't have that option, if you live in UK pound doesn't have that option, in Europe there is no such option for Euro. But in bitcoin there is one thing if you believe it is a bubble that you can do : Do not buy it. I mean in fiat, you have to have fiat because you have to live, without fiat you can't buy anything, so you are forced to be involved with the fiat world.

But in crypto, if you think it is a ponzi, just ignore it, and do not buy it, if you happen to get it somehow, just sell it and get out. Simple as that. People who try to bash bitcoin makes no sense to me, we are interested in bitcoin and that is why we talk about it, if you do not like it, why are you bashing it? Just sell and move on?

The best way to sort out a Ponzi is to make it go through a recession and see what happens - they'll collapse because when there's an economical crisis no one invests and the companies can't pay off the investors and lure the new ones. What are we facing now? Crisis. Did Bitcoin collapse? No, it's growing.
Simple as that.
I wrote a post about it recently: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5320505.0
And there are plenty of other threads and articles dedicated to this issue, simply read some of them and you won't have any more questions.

although there are those who benefit from the increase in bitcoin, but we can see of course there will be losers as well, and that is natural as a market law. I think the money just goes into the hands of people who can better understand the situation

from wikipedia.org
Bitcoin wasn't created to generate profit. It isn't a tool to generate money, Bitcoin is deflationary medium of exchange.

Well, the price might be over $60,000 now, but do you know why Bitcoin was developed? Bitcoin was developed to be a payment method, though it turned out that it is very volatile and people are now seeing it as an opportunity to get rich, but that wasn’t the purpose why it was made.

So, even if it should reach $100,000 and drop to $1 today, that’s not going to stop it from being used as a payment method, of course investors might get scared and run away from the market, but those who just wants to be making use of it for payment will always continue. And bitcoin is not a Ponzi as you have said, it is not, there is a clear difference between it and a Ponzi scheme which I believe the comments here have cleared you on that.

Not maybe, it is really indeed a silly thought and nonsense, in my opinion.

Bubble and volatility is different, as well as fiat and Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the newest currency and revolutionary while fiat is just as old as earth. If Bitcoin was just a bubble, I think after bursting (deflating) it wouldn't have a huge comeback just like what's happening in Bitcoin every time its price decreases a huge one. Also, inflation doesn't exist in Bitcoin, and the most impossible thing to assume is that Bitcoin is just a Ponzi, that's too hilarious.

It wouldn't live too long if it is just a Ponzi.

Actually, there was one. Bernie Madoff, who died in prison 2 days ago, serving a 150-year sentence, ran a $65bn Ponzi scheme that lasted over 15 years, for sure, and maybe even much longer.

But the main difference between what happens with BTC and what happens with Ponzi schemes, is that no Ponzi scheme would ever recover from a disaster that was happening to Bitcoin in 2018, ever. And yet today, 2 years+ later, we are hitting one ATH after another.

So, I would rephrase the question to "Have you seen a ponzi scheme that has survived a crash?"

The basic theory and features allow you to think that bitcoin is used for payment purposes but the reality is that it is not for that purpose because a lot of payment systems are much more preeminent than bitcoin, Bitcoin has been able to grow until now due to the bubble that so many investors bonded together to create, exaggerating year by year, and all of a sudden, bitcoin becomes very high compared to the underlying reality. It's not a form of ponzi and it can't be used for payments, it is just a tool for others to raise prices without having too much concrete meaning

is it a ponzi or is it a buuble?
Make up your mind. For example bubble was the marihuana stocks. Ponzi is when there is no inherit value or utilty in the asset and it keeps growinf till it goes to zero when everyone founds out.

BTC could be in a bubble, but it is not a ponzi.

Bitcoin won't be considered a ponzi because its still growing at the present  but it's definitely a bubble because of its current price that is already very expensive for newly investors. But if you have high hopes in bitcoin, its price won't be a struggle because you can start investing today even a fraction of it and still succeeded in the future. If you really believe in bitcoin, never underestimate it but work for it so you will also feel what those old investors are currently feeling at the moment.

I don't think Bitcoin is a bubble. Bitcoin is a technology that will solve the problem of our never-ending increase in the inflation rate. You are just frustrated maybe because you have bought Bitcoin at its ATH price. But do not worry, Bitcoin is just getting started and we are all just joined on time. :)

He can do even better, anyone that is completely convinced that bitcoin is a bubble should instead short the market, if you are so sure that you are right about your prediction of bitcoin then short it, not only you're going to be correct in your prediction now you're going to earn a lot of money with it in a very short amount of time, what can be better than that? The only problem with that is that bitcoin is not a bubble, bitcoin is here to stay and people are going to regret not investing in it

And have you ever seen a bubble that lasted a decade? If you think btc is a bubble that will soon burst then tell me how many bubble or ponzi have you seen that lasted a decade? If you can find out and while you are at it take some time to ponder if btc is ponzi why institutional investors and companies like PayPal,  Greyscale, Tesla, and others are part of it,
I don't think this reputable companies will have anything to do with ponzi.

I wouldn't say that he is silly, I would just think that he is a willfully ignorant person, those are different things. A silly idea would mean that someone is researching every option, you do not learn about fire being something you should not touch without touching it, someone did that once upon a time and now we all know it, it is human nature as well but some people definitely did it for us to learn the consequences. Silly things could happen, it is just the way humanity grow bigger and wiser.

However if you are willfully ignorant and you do not want to accept the truth even though it is there, like saying people warn you touching fire is bad, they bring you someone who has touched it before and burned their hand and shows scars, and you still go around and saying "I think touching fire could be fine, what do you think" to people, that is not just silly, that is ignorant.

Right. Big companies won't suicide having to interfere with only ponzi or bubbles because it's only a big waste of time. They must have seen the high potentials of bitcoin because they trusted in it and now, bitcoin is still leading the crypto market. There's no ponzi like bitcoin who's still up in the market after 10 years of existence.

Having to even compare butcoin with ponzi schemes is something I find out of place. In fact, the whole concept about the thread is wrong. You don't use something that are very distinct in function to make an analogy of this nature. Let me ask this?

Is there or have there been any ponzi that serves as a currency or is been used as a medium of exchange?

This is the perspective I think we should be looking at this from. Bitcoin could be regarded as an asset, can we say the same about ponzi?

So, there is nothing similar between this two concepts. They are exclusive and as such, we can't correctly have a base for any comparison. There is no late comers or new comers in bitcoin. Besides, there are more and more coins been mined and put into distribution for which everyone is at liberty to acquire at current rate. There is no harm in the valuation of a thing.

I can't say that this bitcoin is the largest ponzi nor the largest bubble in the world or in the universe rather. If this was really a bubble or ponzi then it must be collapsed already and it will not be able to last for almost 11 years. Am I right? Bitcoin is not a bubble in which I am pretty sure that after 10 years, bitcoin will be still there and nothing changes, maybe there will be some ups and downs in terms of it's value but bitcoin will be bitcoin and nothing will change. Bitcoin is not a bubble that will just disappear because if it's so then maybe bitcoin is not here anymore.

Bernie Madoff did a Ponzi scheme that lasted for decades so I would say that yes, I have seen/heard or learned of a Ponzi scheme that lasted as long as Bitcoin is right now. I wouldn't really say that bitcoin is a Ponzi per se but the early adopters are at the top of the pyramid and I do see some resemblance but I don't think that bitcoin is a Ponzi because it wouldn't grow this big if it isn't unsustainable as @Ucy said.

for now it is, will see how willl stand in few years from now, new currencies are growing. :-X

This kind of post was already created even before Bitcoin reach the $10,000. People have always labeled Bitcoin as something that would be gone within a month but all those doubters have been proven wrong and Bitcoin is still a good thing that people can have this days. The possibility of Bitcoin growth is still there specially when it is being adopted into the physical world nowadays. More and more projects have been appearing and they want to integrate the usage of Cryptocurrencies in their transactions.

that not all bubbles are ponzi and not all ponzi are bubbles. Bitcoin holders are never harmed by a drop in price if they keep it for a long time. Meanwhile, what is called a ponzi is a fraud under the guise of an investment business that seems profitable.

     With your argument, even calling stocks as ponzi schemes are just as true. As to why is very easy to understand and doesn't need explaining. Of course, if you lack knowledge about this coin or not in the techy side you wouldn't care much about bitcoin except for it's price, volume and the big names who are drawn to it. An easy thing to understand is that people love new things and love to jump on to the newest trends every time especially when there are a lot to gain. So as long as there is desire to be on the trend along with the now obvious desire of profits and some extent of privacy, bitcoin will not pop. Not unless all the governments and banks in the world unite to destroy bitcoin along with all the other altcoins to get rid of this tyoe of industry. Which I honestly think is very unlikely to happen. I think you get my point. Good day op.

Bitcoin is legit and it is very profitable when you invest in bitcoin,not only in bitcoin you can also invest it in alternative coin. Big company like paypal and other project support bitcoin and surely bitcoin will be future of digital currencies.

That's right, and for those who are interested in a detailed research here's a good article (https://seekingalpha.com/article/4404419-is-bitcoin-ponzi-scheme-point-point-analysis) on why Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme. Probably one of the best proofs is the following(citing from the article): "Ponzi scheme promoters sometimes try to prevent participants from cashing out by offering even higher returns for staying put." Bitcoin holders can cashout whenever they want without someone preventing them from doing so, and not because they are allowed to, but because there's no one to ask permission, in the first place. There are also other characteristics of Bitcoin that no Ponzi scheme possesses, but this one is very convincing, imo.

Ponzi? Remember that bitcoin already exist more than ten years and a ponzi scheme will not stay alive even for one year. A lot of scammers using a ponzi scheme but bitcoin is not a scam investment.
Bubble? Of course not! Just look at the demand that cause it to sky rocket and until now the demand keep on increasing and the value of bitcoin is still high. $1 to $60k if you have bitcoin from the beginning that it was created, then you can say that they have such a too much return in investment. But, I think most of the people just buy from 2019, because those what they have from year 2010 is already sold during the 2018ATH. So, people invested again.

Ponzi is basically a scam all around, it guarantees income and that's why it is a ponzi, nothing in the world could guarantee you any income and that is why ponzis will always stay a scam, even if you managed to get everyone in the world which will make that ponzi trillions of dollars high, you will eventually run out of money in existence to keep paying these people. This is why I think it is obvious that we should not be really looking at bitcoin as a ponzi. Why? Because nobody guarantees income to you, it is like gold, is gold a ponzi? Does anyone guarantee you income with gold?

You do make a profit but it is not guaranteed, it is just a valuable thing that gets more valuable over time and that's it. Bitcoin is the same as that, it is a good thing that people do not really understand bitcoin just yet, it allows us to buy bitcoin at cheaper levels until everyone gets it.

Bitcoin is definitely not a ponzi scheme. Ponzi always crash. Bitcoin is based on pure supply and demand created by humankind. It is possible to say bitcoin is a bubble. As a bubble, bitcoin will go up and down but it will never ever disappear from this world. The DotCom bubble is a good example. Many companies do change but many of them have receovered after more than 10 years

I have multiple reasons to believe that Bitcoin is not a bubble or Ponzi, and I am saying this out of my one decade of experience with cryptocurrency. My points are as follows:

1. The inventor of Bitcoin (Satoshi Nakamoto) never benefited from his invention. There was no premine, and Satoshi never sold any of the coins that he mined. So if the promoter is not benefitting from it, how can we classify Bitcoin as a Ponzi?

2. In order to qualify as a bubble, Bitcoin should be something that can be destroyed. But theoretically it is impossible to destroy the coins that are mined.

3. Bitcoin is 100% decentralized and it is impossible for someone to control BTC.

4. The algorithm or the original code can't be changed in future, not even by the inventor.

5. Every single transaction is stored in Blockchain, so it is impossible for someone to stay anonymous after using Bitcoin for fraud.

I do agree that bitcoin isn't a Ponzi and I don't get how people are seeing the Ponzi angle in bitcoin when there is none and from what I can tell with what OP is saying, those that were early got more, yes it may look like Ponzi but that is also how stock market works, the first stock owners will get more money because the company grows, that's the same with bitcoin.

I like the way how bitcoin has proving people wrong who had ever thought being ponzi from start and now the countries are adopting and getting clearance for the institutions to participate and buy it. This is because they have realizing now the worth of it and it is not a bubble. But its fine everyone has their perspective and since their is nothing physical which some of them would like to have as to get its value they think it is ponzi.

Yes bitcoin has proven its potential and how it is different from any other ponzi scheme. Still, we cannot do anything about what haters keep on blubbering. Moreover I am just seeing such people who are honestly consistently promoting bitcoin into the rest of the people even they are talking in negative way. When they are talking negative way but bitcoin keeps proving them wrong then that will again working in favor of bitcoin to be adopted more intensively.

One day or other even Warren Buffet also will become a bitcoiner. Yes, I am having lots of confident on the potential of bitcoin to attract all the haters including those wall Street whales as well.

He may invest and I am not ready to call all investors as bitcoiners. You need to be a long term holder and you must build your future out of bitcoins to be called as bitcoiners. Even it is just my opinion, I believe most people will accepting my view. Warren Buffet was once bitcoin hater hence even we change his mind, I am not expecting that he will invest with long term plans; he may invest and book profits just before the ATH; I am sure.

Using vague analogy to exhibit correlation between the two, something that we've already seen ever since 2015. Ponzi schemes require active referral and participation from the bottom members to keep the system alive, bitcoin doesn't have to. And don't even get me talking about the miners who prolly haven't even spent a cent to invest in bitcoin, but are still earning big gains. Is bitcoin a bubble? As much as people would like bitcoin to pop out of existence, they are yet to succeed, even after 11 years. is bitcoin a Ponzi? certainly not.

I got to know Bitcoin around 2016, and the Bitcoin Ponzi accusations were very high at the time. Maybe indeed many scammers used Bitcoin
to carry out a Ponzi scheme at that time, finally many newbies who become victims of fraud mention the Bitcoin Ponzi, that's what makes a lot of
people misunderstand Bitcoin until now. So, it really needs to be educated a lot that Bitcoin is very different from Ponzi. But over time,
the accusation against Bitcoin is that the Ponzi has eased a bit these days, because there are many Bitcoin communities that educate through
articles and videos explaining why Bitcoin is not a Ponzi.

Its, because Bitcoin have elevated so many people out of poverty in some countries.

And there goes another person who calls bitcoin names. Ahhh.... Takes me back to those times when self proclaimed financial advisors along with all those self entitled people whose names are quite famous were also calling bitcoin along with everything in this industry as scams and ponzis. And ohhhh how they felt so good and proud when bitcoin really dropped in price. But just recently, these monkeys ate their words and even invested in the very thing(s) that they called as a ponzi or scam. These type of stuff is kind of getting boring the more I see it.