Bitcoin Forum

(tl;dr
When people talk about Bitcoin what they actually talk about is statement about Bitcoin. But Bitcoin itself doesn't exist. If I say" John owns 10 Ferraris", this is a statement. It's a statement about ten cars in John's ownership. But in reality, John doesn't actually own Ferraris. So, we can make statements about nonexistent things. And that's exactly what Satoshi's software does. After POW, this software writes that John, that is, his blockchain address, has quantity xx of a thing that Satoshi named Bitcoin. But John is not able to show xx Bitcoins the same as he is not able to show 10 Ferraris in his ownership. All he can show are statements. Statements about nonexistent things.)


The illusory truth effect, refers to a phenomenon in which people, when hear the same false information repeated again and again, often come to believe it is true. Also, repetition of a such information increases its likelihood of being judged true. Even the most educated individuals are still prone to this effect. They may be skeptical of a false information the first time they hear it, but the more they are exposed to it, the more they start to feel like it’s true, and their previous knowledge is not able to prevent this. This effect is especially powerful in today’s times of social media, where it is incredibly easy for false information to spread quickly to millions and millions of people all over the world. Bitcoin is a textbook example of this effect in action. Namely, we are exposed to headlines like: “Large companies are now investing in Bitcoin”, “The value of Bitcoin has risen ” or “Tesla bought bitcoin”. We talk about Bitcoin. We know there are millions upon millions of dollars involved around Bitcoin. We read books and articles about Bitcoin. And so on. However, all the things just mentioned rest on the information that Bitcoin exists. While in reality, there is no such thing as Bitcoin. If you think that Bitcoin exists you are the victim of the illusory truth effect. Everyone that makes headlines like the above, writes books or articles about Bitcoin, is victim as well. The information on Bitcoin’s existence has been repeated so many times that nobody is aware of the fact that this information if entirely false. Here, we will show that Bitcoin is a fictional or nonexistent thing. That nobody ever bought or sold Bitcoin. And that all people have ever done in this whole Bitcoin thing is transfer false statements on quantity created by a computer program of an anonymous author.

The best way to start explaining the nonexistence of Bitcoin is via an example. Suppose you are a business owner and you receive a digital invoice from your software supplier. The invoice lists a dozen items. Upon inspection of the list, you notice the item named “Microsoft Office 2019 license” with the quantity “10” next to it, and you realize that you never bought the licenses. You neither ordered nor received them. Licenses in the said quantity never came into the possession of your company. So, what the supplier did is sent you fake digital data (fake quantity). Fake, because the data informs you that you got digital asset (licenses) in a specific quantity, while in fact you didn’t get them. Exactly the same thing is happening in the world of Bitcoin. Namely, an anonymous author called Satoshi Nakamoto wrote a computer program that sends quantity data to the virtual addresses of people who maintain a database with these quantities and addresses. The database is called blockchain, while the maintainers are called miners. The said data informs the miners that they got specific quantity of a “digital asset” called Bitcoin. Bitcoin is supposed to be the payment for the miners, their reward for the maintenance. But here we have the same problem as in the invoice example. The miners never get Bitcoins. They only get quantity data on Bitcoins. The same as your company got quantity data on licenses but not the licenses themselves. And although in that example, the invoice quantity data was fake, we at least know what the Microsoft Office licenses are. Here, we have blockchain quantity data, but nobody even knows what Bitcoin is. Nobody knows to what thing in the real world this quantity data belongs. Only name was given to it: “Bitcoin”. Generally speaking, quantity is defined as the amount of something. So here, “something” is Bitcoin. But besides the amount and address in the blockchain, nothing exists anywhere that is in the ownership of address holders. So, what the Satoshi’s computer program sends to miner’s addresses is fake quantity data. Data on a fictional thing called Bitcoin. And from miner’s addresses, such data is then transferred to the addresses of other blockchain members. If you are one of the members, and you see “0.54” and “BTC” in your wallet, “0.54” is supposed to be the quantity of Bitcoin, and “BTC” a short name for it. But if one were to now ask you, where is the thing in your ownership that has quantity “0.54” and name “BTC” you wouldn’t be able to show it. That’s because Bitcoin doesn’t exist. Simply, what you have in your wallet is quantity of a fictional or nonexistent thing.

Generally speaking, what Satoshi Nakamoto did is pretty trivial. He wrote a computer program through which he is saying something to people. He is saying it in the form of quantity data. In our invoice example, your software supplier also said something to you in the form of quantity data – that your company got licences in a specific quantity. Data is simply a statement expressed formally. So, what Satoshi Nakamoto does with his computer program, is formally saying to blockchain address holders that they got Bitcoins in a specific quantity. But saying something doesn’t make it true. The same as your software supplier must prove that your company gained ownership of their licences, otherwise their statement is false, Satoshi Nakamoto must also prove that blockchain address holders gain ownership of his Bitcoins. But he is obviously not able to do that given that address holders got nothing from Satoshi except his quantity data, that is, his statements. That’s why Satoshi’s statements in the blockchain are false. Simply put, Satoshi instructed his computer program to tell lies to people. He instructed it to store fake quantity data. And doing something like that is what almost everyone can do. After all, that’s why we have the explosion of crypto currencies, or more precisely, the explosion of fancy names and fake quantity data. All that crypto creators do through their crypto softwares is telling lies to people.

Many people are lured into this whole crypto thing because the quantities between crypto accounts are transferred the same way as quantities between banking accounts. This creates the illusion that it’s all about sending and receiving quantities. That it is all about transferring data. But, nothing could be further from the truth. Namely, when people have quantities in their bank accounts they own something that actually exists, something that can be shown. They own debt. And this debt is paid to them in the form of goods, services, or labor provided by the borrowers. Here’s how. In a banking system, new quantities are crated when banks grant loans to the borrowers. Borrowers get quantities on paper bills or on deposit accounts. This is how debt is created. Once created, the investors invest in this debt. How they invest? Well, they trade goods, services, or labor with the borrowers. In that way the investors get quantities on deposit accounts, or on paper bills. So, if you have a positive balance in your bank account, or a paper bill in your hand, you essentially invested in the debt of the borrowers. Once the debt is in the market, the quantities are traded between the investors and this is how the debt ownership changes hands. Finally, given that there is debt owed to the investors, this debt gets paid back. How it gets paid back? Well in the same way it was invested in it – through the trade of goods, services, or labor. Namely, borrowers need back the quantities they previously traded because they are required (forced via collateral) to repay their loans. In order to get the quantities back, they trade their goods, services or labor with the investors. And this is how they pay the debt to the investors. Once the debt is paid, the borrowers have the quantities needed to repay their loans. With the loan repayments the quantities went back to the banks that created them. In that way, the quantities are withdrawn form circulation. With new loans, quantities are put back into circulation, and the whole process of debt creation, debt investment and debt payment repeats itself.

As we can see, when people transfer data from one banking account to another, what they actually transfer is the ownership of debt. The quantity data itself only represents or quantifies the debt, and without debt, there wouldn’t be data. So in the case of banking accounts we have two things: digital data (quantities), and intangible asset (debt ownership). Debt ownership is the thing that actually exists. That’s why we call it an asset. Asset is something that exists. On the other hand, in the case of crypto accounts we have digital data (quantities), but the thing on which the data is supposed to be, is nonexistent. And this nonexistent thing is given a name: Bitcoin, Dogecoin, Litecoin, whatever. So, when you think that you bought some crypto currency, you haven’t actually bought a currency. Only fake quantity data was sent to your address. Crypto currencies are fictional. They exist only in imagination, like Harry Potter or Starship Enterprise.

With that said it is easy to figure out what the crypto schemes are all about. They are about getting existent things in the exchange for nonexistent ones. Fancy names and fake quantity data are the tricks how to get them. You simply write a computer program that stores quantity data into a database and then you invent some fancy name to create the illusion that there is an existent thing behind the quantity. Then, you convince people of your creation being digital, because nowadays, calling something “digital” implies that it is new, innovative and revolutionary. You also convince them that your creation is an “asset”, “money” or “currency”. You even convince them to spend enormous amounts of electricity to keep your scheme running. Then, people start giving you the existent things (goods, debt ownership, company ownership, …) or provide you services or labor. And all you do in return, is sending them fake quantity data created out of thin air by your computer program. How is all that possible? Well, it is possible because people are the victims of the illusory truth effect. They hear the repetition of a specific name again and again, for e.g. “Bitcoin”, and they come to believe there’s an existent thing behind the name, such as currency, commodity, money, digital asset, tokens, coins, etc. When in reality, there is nothing except fake quantity data.

The same is true for investing. People hear the repetition of a phrase “investing in Bitcoin”, and they come to believe that actual investing is going on. While in reality all people are doing is paying off the existing blockchain members, and then wait for new members to pay them off the same way. Paying off the existing members is obviously not the definition of investing. The definition of investing is when investors put their assets, services or labor in an existent thing form which they can then expect the return. We saw that in fiat currencies, they put them in debt of the borrowers (existent thing), and their investment is then returned as goods, services, or labor provided by the borrowers. In stocks, they put them in a company (existent thing) and their investment is then returned as dividend, buyback value or liquidation value paid by the company. In bonds, they put them in debt of the bond issuer (existent thing), and their investment is then returned as principal paid by the issuer. In gold, they put them in a precious metal (existent thing), and their investment is then returned as usage of that metal in jewelry, electronics, computers, dentistry, medicine, aerospace, etc. So in actual investments, the investors can return their investment from the thing they invested in. They are not condemned to wait for new members to pay them off. That is why we can say that one invested in fiat currencies, stocks, bonds or gold. On the other hand, we cannot say that one invested in Bitcoin. It is impossible to invest in something that doesn’t exist.

With all that said, it is obvious why the whole Bitcoin scheme is a ticking bomb that can go off at any time. Namely, we have the whole army of members who put the existent things in the scheme (miners alone put in about 130 terawatts of electricity a year). Alternatively, members put in services or labor. All these people expect the existent things, services or labor back. Because, by being blockchain members they own none of the above. That is why they desperately need new members who will voluntary enter the scheme and provide them the said things. Meaning, the existing army of people requires another army of people to pay them off. But, as the first army grows, there are less members to form the second army. Eventually, the turning point will happen, people will realize what is going on, and no one will be willing to become the blockchain member anymore. Then, the whole scheme will collapse and the existing members will be left with nothing.

To conclude, the illusory truth effect, together with the tricks of fancy name and fake quantity data, created the illusion of the existence of a thing called Bitcoin. For that reason, people thought that the whole thing differs from classical Ponzi or pyramid schemes, where nothing exists to pay off the existing members, and thus, a constant influx of new members is required. But, as it turns out, exactly this is the case with Bitcoin scheme. Nobody can be paid off from blockchain membership because nothing exists behind the fancy name and quantity data. That is why a constant influx of new members is required to pay the existing ones off. All schemes where the existing members can be paid off only from the inputs of new members, eventually come to a turning point after which they collapse. Bitcoin scheme, and all crypto schemes for that matter, will come to this point as well. It is just a matter of time.

BTC is not created out of thin air. There is no one out there who will just pop out and print BTC to paste it into the blockchain. BTC is being mined using the devices solving hashes crunching numbers and consuming energy. How is that a lie when banks are already adopting it?

Well, you still could say it's a Ponzi but there is no one here that will ever think Satoshi can print more BTC just as the FED are doing which is a bigger Ponzi. It will always be 21M BTC ever.

You make it sound like we're all nuts and anything related to Bitcoin is just a theory and an imagination. It's not. Actually, the license argument can easily be used as a counter-argument against your main point. If licenses can be sold online and delivered as a text code, then Bitcoin is no different. You can sell it on the internet and it can be delivered in either private keys or the coins can be placed into public addresses. Moreover, you can check the validiity of the license code with Microsoft's database the same way you can check either whether a private key is correct or if a said balance is currently truly sitting on an address.

Bitcoin exists. There's no way one can tell me it doesn't. The fact that it's not physically real but digitally instead is a completely different thing.

As mentioned above by my fellow forum member, Bitcoin has a production cost. We can't simply add random numbers to our wallets. So how come it is created out of thin air. If it is created out of thin air, shouldn't we all become a billionaire by now?

Bitcoin's production cost is pretty significant and an average Joe can't mine bitcoin just with one laptop. It requires ASICs and electricity. Moreover it has a fixed supply unlike fiat. Fiats can be printed if a government wishes to print. Check facts before bashing bitcoin.

It does exist, it's just intangible. There's a huge difference, if we replace your word with mine. Bitcoin is a digitally represented asset and it's being distributed as a “debt” to everyone using it. If someone gave me a digital signature saying that these units are now owned by BlackHatCoiner, it means that he just created a debt to me and it can be seen from what we call “block chain”, which is also a digital and hence, intangible chain.

Stating that Bitcoin doesn't exist should mean that Internet doesn't as well. But, being able to read this message thousands miles away is a clear proof that internet does exist. It's just intangible.

You should picture it in another way. Imagine a 3D printer printing tangible items called “bitcoins” every 10 minutes and whoever was near the machine could earn them. If some people (bitcoins' owners) started using these coins as a medium of exchange, you'd say that they do exist. What exactly would it change if instead of tangible items, we had a public ledger showing who owns what and that we knew that this ledger can't be censored or erased by anyone's will. It'd not make bitcoins non-existing, but rather intangible. And that's because that ledger wouldn't show an IOU, but a strong proof that you don't owe me anything. You paid me.

If anyone is convinced that Bitcoin can be used as a medium of exchange through the internet, then why not using it? No one forced you to believe that being a debtor in this system will be beneficial to you. The whole system relies on the belief that people will use that censorship-resistant ledger as a way to transact their value.

And due to the above, I answer to that too:
Satoshi never forced anyone to use Bitcoin. Whoever found it useful, could consider it a medium of exchange. (S)He never lied to anyone.

Sure, it may still be an experiment, who knows what's waiting for us in the next decades. I personally doubt if it's a ticking bomb.

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Anyway, nice post, even if I disagree to lots of your arguments. It's nice to see people expressing their opinions upon this digital era.

Of course BTC is not created out of thin air given it's nonexistent. But quantity data on nonexistent BTC is created out of thin air. The fact the creating is done after POW is like writing letter on a piece of paper after one does hundred push-up, and then claim that the letter is not created out of thin air. It is. Letters and numbers are always created out of thin air. Regarding scarcity. Only existent things can be scarce. If you put a limit in an algorithm to 21 million this is just an arbitrary decision. You could have put it to 21 trillion. It doesn't matter. It's just numbers. And numbers can go to infinity. Numbers, that is, quantities have nothing to do with scarcity. And all you have in blockchain is quantities.

First of all 99.99999% people aren't interested to read huge article like you shared. People are here just for discussion in short way. Now comes to your point the first thing what do you think bitcoin is created in air? Are you out of your mind brother? You have to research first before blaming anything. First of all bitcoin creator is still anonymous but his name is satoshi nakamoto it is confirmed. If we research that the first person who creat this forum and share about bitcoin is the person user name is satoshi nakamoto. So now i don't think soo we need clarification about satoshi nakamoto is the bitcoin creator. In my opinion your post is just click bet purpose.

Exactly, there is no codebase restricting the FED from printing more money. There is no algorithm they need to have their actions validated. Bitcoin is maths translated into a hard set of rules that can only be changed with the vast majority of the network's stakeholders voting for those changes. Bitcoin has an incentive structure that, if you give it some time and think about it, is damn sophisticated. Far superior to what we find in political bodies like the FED.

Oh look who is back in forum again with his new account... always Anti and against things he don't understand, I guess you love working for government.

Fiat money doesn’t exist, or how Government tells lies to people, and Bitcoin is Antithesis to Fiat monetary system.

op really looks like a clown elon :D
if op wants to spend a little time reading the bitcoin whitepaper maybe he/she will realize his/her mistake

the war with Bitcoin has been echoed by the bankers
they say Bitcoin is a reincarnation of tulipmania, here I see clearly their stupidity comparing Bitcoin which using the best technology with tulip flower

Dude instead of this nonsense realize Melania Trump and Gal Gadot are secret trannies.

Melania Trump - https://www.bitchute.com/video/zjTVb9puK87q/ (https://www.bitchute.com/video/zjTVb9puK87q/)

Gal Gadot - https://www.bitchute.com/video/MaU52o38ph9Q/ (https://www.bitchute.com/video/MaU52o38ph9Q/)

Bitcoin has a very real measurable financial reality as well as an industrial reality. That is like thinking gold isn't real. Bitcoin exists based on physics and PROOF of work.

Shitcoins are NOT real though. ;)

Did I just blow your mind?

Your post is too long it makes people not interested what you're saying in it. And because it is also something against Bitcoin and its revered inventor, the more reason people won't bother going through all those long lines.

But to respond to your title, your point is subjective. It does not exist as in you cannot touch it, but it does exist in my wallet because I can see the numbers there. And I own it. It is there. I could convert them to fiat anytime and buy something tangible out of it or I could just use it to directly buy stuff.

So, it means you don't believe in bitcoin but why you're here in bitcoin forum and crypto space? I guess, you’re also a bitcoin investor and one of those crypto whales acting like anti bitcoin. You just want people with weak hands to dump their bitcoins and you will buy it  ;D

If you said that bitcoin is just a number, what about fiat money? It is also about number, right? Both fiat and money was created base on quantities and the difference is that, bitcoin is intangible while fiat is tangible. We are in a new generation which almost everything is computer generated and that's how bitcoin was created, because of technology.

For someone who likes to write a lot it is amazing how you come to such a bizarre, illogical and detached conclusion. You seem to have conflated the price that people have associated with the item and your clear inability to see how the blockchain fundamentally operates. While the price of Bitcoin/cryptocurrency might be highly overvalued, that in itself does not make the mechanism "illusory" as you suggest. Money is nothing except an agreed form of value exchange and Bitcoin solves exactly the same problem. All the things that you have described can be applied to any fiat currency (since it was detached from the gold standard) yet people use it every day for the purpose intended.

Fiat is not tangible. It is a federal reserve "note". not tangible in the slightest. You can print out a private key on paper too and keep it in your wallent in denominations. hand it to people that accept bitcoin.

This isn't a university where most people are impressed with lots of words strung together. 

The fact remains you are a troll or an idiot. 

Your content is easy to disprove in seconds.  We have already do so in your last made for children at the age of 10 thread, or university students.  => 

Reiteration of idiocy with more words doesn't help your case. If anything it makes you look even more stupid.  Why you might ask?  when someone has been proven wrong the smart ones go back and figure out what they did wrong.   You haven't, therefore stupid/ideologue.   bu bye now o/

and yes that was a troll to the troll

just because you don't understand something that doesn't mean that thing is incorrect. you may want to refuse to accept that the earth is round but that doesn't make it flat.

The quantity of licences (number) and the licenses themselves (asset) are two different things. The first only measures the second. In blockchain, you have quantity of Bitcoins (number), but not Bitcoin (asset) itself. Private keys have access to quantity not to Bitcoins. Bitcoins don't exist. They are fictional. It is explained in details why.

Firstly, I didn't read the entire wall of text and understood what you were trying to convey through some of the posters above. Secondly, if you don't believe that BTC exists, why on earth are you posting about it in this forum?

Feels like you hate BTC for some reason and you basically wrote this wall of crap to try and make yourself feel better. Also, you successfully attracted a ton of hate.

What has costs is not the production of Bitcoin, but storing and maintaining fake quantity data in the blockchain. Those processes don't produce something. They only spend that what is already produced, which is electricity. Adding numbers to blockchain is just adding statements about quantity of fictional Bitcoins - which is a trivial, algorithmically predetermined task.

Well thanks for the heads up, some of us will remember to keep that in mind while continue with our btc investment  ;)
lol, i don't know why some people just chose to continuously waste their time on something they have no control of, if you think btc is just a big lie then do yourself a favor and don't invest, no need to write such a long and boring story. it is really pretty simple.

Quantity written on the medium is always intangible. You cannot for example touch quantity on paper bills or on deposit account. But quantity is not an asset. Quantity is just a number that expresses the amount of an asset. In blockchain you have the amount, but the asset that this amount is supposed to express is nonexistent. So, Bitcoin is NOT a digitally represented asset. Bitcoin is nonexistent asset. And therefore it cannot be distributed as a “debt”. Granted loans are being distributed as debt and the amount of that debt is expressed with the quantity on paper bills or banking accounts.

Regarding your example. A 3D printer printing tangible items called “bitcoins” every 10 minutes means that the items exist and thus, we can use quantity on some medium to express their amount. But in the current bitcoin scheme you only have quantity on the digital medium but not the items themselves. Neither tangible nor intangible. The items are fictional and as such they are called "bitcoins".

So, if instead of tangible items, we had a public ledger showing what address has what quantity, that means that there's nothing in the real world that has quantity expressed in the ledger. Wich makes the whole ledger just a giant storage of fake data.

So, why not expressing the quantity of the granted loans to some block chain units?

I think you're making it more complicated than it should. In the above part of your reply, you're trying to convince me that an asset has to exist and be tangible, but who told you that Bitcoin is an asset? It's a protocol, a set of rules in which computers follow to achieve this censorship resistant and double-spending deterrent electronic payment system.

In a payment system, units are required. Satoshi chose to call them bitcoins. (S)He didn't create value out of thin air. Whoever wanted a payment system that followed this consensus scheme could join and be part of its distributed ledger.

It's nothing, but a ledger of debts.

The existence of bitcoin is still a mystery, everyone still wants to know who is satoshi and what does he look like. Over the years, bitcoin was able to reach lots of achievements that doesn't seem possible for a simple digital currency to make. We should be proud of it and feel privileged considering that not everyone was given the chance to learn about it in their lifetime. All of these might be a lie, it is too good to be true but still bitcoin is one of the best thing that has ever happened in our lives and I will always be thankful for it.

Bitcoin is created digitally and not for any physical form of Bitcoin itself. That is why it is like BTC doesn't exist. But in fact, there is Bitcoin.
For people who really care about BTC, this coin is likely volatile with the data and digitalization in the market. During this digital era, all cryptocurrencies are created and really can follow the development of technology. So far, I don't really mind about the only data and not for the physical

Everything you said is true. But bitcoin still doesn't exist. Because you can pretend it exists, you can imagine there is something behind the quantity and the name. For example. I can sell you a car which evaporated in an explosion and doesn't exist anymore. Because everything is done via paperwork. We simply imagine the car still exist and make the transfer. That car would still have quantity. It would still have properties in our heads, but not in the real world. The same is true with bitcoin. It has quantities and imagined properties but it doesn't exist in the real world.

Or let me explain it another way.

Imagine a friend saying to you: "You own 10 Ferraris and 50 luxury apartments in Hawaii." Of course, you don't own them, so you would probably laugh at such a statement. Now imagine an anonymous guy, let's call him Satoshi Nakamoto, saying to you: "you own a revolutionary digital asset, digital gold, money of the future." You would also probably laugh at such a statement because you know that you own nothing of a such. But, you see, millions and millions of people around the world believe Satoshi. They believe to own some revolutionary digital asset. And the only reason they believe it is because Satoshi told them so. They even spend enormous amounts of electricity to keep Satoshi's statements stored in database. And they even pay an enormous amount of money to transfer these statements from one name to another. Currently, we live in a time of a collective madness. Madness, in which an anonymous author wrote a computer program through which he is saying something to people. And people blindly believe him.

To better understand what's going on, let's go back to your friend. Imagine that your friend formally writes his statement into a database as data. First column in this database would contain owner's name, the second quantity of asset, and the third name of asset. So we would have something like this: "John Smith", "10", Ferrari. The second row in the database would be this: "John Smith", "50", Luxury apartment. So this is your friend's statement stored as data in a database. Now, would such transformation of verbal statement into data mean that you became the owner of Ferraris and apartments? That you magically became rich? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. Just because your friend stored his statement into a database as data, that doesn't make the statement true. It is still false. It still contains fake quantity data on the said assets. But in the current bitcoin madness, Satoshi's statements in the form of data, are considered true. And they are believed blindly. Namely, this anonymous guy, Satoshi Nakamoto, wrote a computer program through which he is saying to people, who performed a certain job, that they own a specific quantity of a revolutionary digital asset called Bitcoin. The job performed is the maintenance of a database that contains quantities of Bitcoin and virtual addresses of people who "own" Bitcoin. The database is called blockchain, while the maintainers are called miners. But now comes the fun fact: Bitcoin doesn't exist. The "revolutionary digital asset" is fictional. It is as fictional as the Ferraris and luxury apartments in the statement of your friend. And although we at least know what Ferraris or luxury apartments are, here we have some "revolutionary digital asset" but nobody even knows what this asset is. Nobody knows to what thing in the real world blockchain quantity data belongs. Only name was given to it: "Bitcoin". Generally speaking, quantity is defined as the amount of something, so here, "something" is Bitcoin. But besides the amount and address in the blockchain no asset exists anywhere that is in the ownership of address holders. And if one were to ask them where is the revolutionary digital asset, where is the thing that has quantity written next to their addresses, they wouldn’t be able to show it. That is because Bitcoin is fictional. It doesn’t exist. Their ownership of Bitcoin is imaginary the same as your ownership of Ferraris and apartments.

All that people are doing in the Satoshi's scheme, is sending and receiving quantities of fictional Bitcoins. And every such transfer is recorded in the blockchain. So the whole scheme, is as nonsensical as believing that just because your friend stored his statement into a database as data, that you now own Ferraris and apartments. And because you "own" them, you believe you are rich. How rich? Well if you scam a guy to whose name in a database you would transfer quantity data on two nonexistent luxury apartments, and he would pay you $1,000,000 for the transfer, then you would have (50-2)*$500.000 or 24 million dollars worth of "assets". This is how "rich" you would be. You would be "rich" because your friend made a fantasy statement and stored it into a database. This the essence behind Satoshi's scheme. People believe that they are rich, that they own some revolutionary digital asset, just because Satoshi’s computer program makes fantasy statements in the form of quantity data. That's the collective madness we currently live in. And because people have fall for this madness there is now the explosion of authors who create computer programs through which they make such fantasy statements. Only names given to nonexistent assets are different.

Do you need to write such a big wall of text in order to explain something that simple?
Sometimes I wonder if all those FUD accounts on the forum are just alt accounts to one person.
Why do you even care?If you are thinking that Bitcoin doesn't exist,then OK,just deal with it and move on with your life.This topic has been explained before.There's no reason for us to explain it again.
If you were scammed and you've lost your Bitcoins,just move on.I believe that most of the FUDsters in the BTC community are people,who lost money.That's why they are bitter about Bitcoin.

I didn't read it but I feel like OP was just explaining about how bitcoin isn't real which is pretty stupid and obvious because bitcoin isn't real in a sense that you can touch it physically. Also, if OP is spreading FUD, I don't think that OP has succeeded because, no one in their right mind is going to waste their time reading that Great Wall of Text. And @davis196 is right OP, why worry about it? Let the people bask in the illusion.

It is very obvious that you do not understand the basics about how consensus work and how that is applied to the decision making regarding the coin cap. You also do not understand the "value" of digital goods and services, so you will have a difficulty understanding why people are willing to pay "physical" fiat money for that.

The younger generation grew up with digital items and they know why people will pay thousands of Dollars for a limited edition Counter-Strike weapon or even just a skin for a weapon. This is also why eight "digital" lots sold for a combined $1.5 million on the gaming platform Axie Infinity.

Do you even know how difficult it was to implement "SegWit" and why there was a Bitcoin Cash fork? (Imagine trying to convince full nodes to increase the Bitcoin coincap)  ;D ;D ;D

A lie has been told hundreds of times, and everyone will think it is true. I don’t reject this view. However, there are technical geeks and well-known economists, as well as celebrity-driven Bitcoin, but it is the consensus of the world. You are Unstoppable, when the trend comes, you can only follow it.

I don't "think", but I know Bitcoin doesn't exist. It is a fact it doesn't exist. You want it simple? Ok. In the blockchain you have quantity. Quantity is defined as the amount of something. If quantity in the blockchain is Bitcoin then it follows that Bitcoin is the quantity and quantity is Bitcoin. Which is nonsense because in that case Bitcoin would be defined as reference to itself: "Bitcoin is the amount of Bitcoin". And this is obviously nonsensical. So, if in the blockchain we have quantity then outside the blockchain there must be something called Bitcoin that has this quantity. But except quantities, address holders own nothing. Or simply put: Bitcoin doesn't exist.

Frankly, I think the OP is fake and does not exist. After all, using their own circular reasoning their only 'proof of existence' is the bits & bytes stored here in the Forum. The OP could well be just a sophisticated AI conversation program such as talked about here (https://shanebarker.com/blog/best-conversational-ai-platforms/) being ran by some grad student as part of their thesis...

Also, their opening post is just a rehash of one that was put up a few days ago titled "Fun fact: Bitcoin doesn't exist, only fake quantity data" which was deleted by the mods. You might want to include the link to original article (which the other post had)...

Are you sure you are 1 person Because you are not actually 1 person you are 37 trillion cells  therefore you cannot be one person that can refer to itself and count therefore you don't exist.  (no bitcoin isn't conscious)


See how fast I took your Silly argument apart?   Using your own Childish logic.   

You seem incapable of learning.  Your ability to use logic is poor.  Do you even exist or are you just a bot?  You keep repeating the same argument and still don't understand that Love doesn't exist either Or Time for that matter.  If you Are Human then you must either acknowledge that Love and Time do exist thus rendering all your Idiot posting null and void.

Or you are a bot and bots don't learn much or at all.

If you remove me and leave only quantity, either 1 or 37 trillion what do you have? Well, you have number referred to nothing. That's quantity in the blockchain. Number referred to nothing. When you transfer quantity to your address you own xx pieces of nothingness. And that nothingness is called "bitcoin". Thanks for proving my point.

Do acknowledge the existence of time?   If the answer is yes then your argument is invalid. And if the answer is no that time does not exist then you cannot type anything to reply to this. That would violate the non-existence of time.   

In the article they quoted in the top post (needs link to the original which is on a wordpress site), the OP posted:
Cryptocoins do the exact same thing - they are a record of holdings and debt against said holdings. Coins are transferred into and out of accounts holding them same as fiat is transferred into/out of bank accounts. Considering the global economy no longer pegs currency to any physical 'thing' -- historically a metal such as copper, silver or gold -- Fiat long ago became 'fake'. Fiat is now just numbers being shuffled around between accounts.

By omission (not saying that Fiat no longer based on a physical 'thing') regarding how the Fiat digital debt gets value, the OP says:
Guess what -- that applies equally to cryptocoins. Just to name a few merchants that accept BTC we have:
NewEgg
TigerDirect
FrozenCPU
Overstock.com and many many others. People can get paid for work using BTC if they choose. So, by the OP's own standards crypto is just as valid as Fiat.

You have a ship named Theseus.

At what point is a sand pile not a pile? One grain of sand? Two? Eight?

At what point are you no longer you? I'm sure there's some limit between 1 and 37 trillion, but I couldn't tell you what that limit is.

If we accept that two grains of sand are not a sand pile, then two grains of sand are nothing in sand pile terms. Also, you are nothing in the units of sand piles. But if I write my bitcoin address in sand piles, then it is that number of sand piles used, and therefore greater.

Saying bitcoin is nothing is like saying your passwords don't exist. If your passwords don't exist, then please post all of the passwords to all of your accounts here.

You cannot refute an argument by talking nonsense. You refute it by proving that premises are false or that the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises.

I've heard a hundred different definitions of Bitcoin. This one is new. So Bitcoin is now debt, like fiat. Well, I have a few questions for you then. Who's the debtor and who's the creditor? Fiat is claim of the banks (central or commercial) and they withdraw it from circulation with every loan repayment. Bitcoin is claim on who, and who withdraws it from circulation?

It seems that every person has their own definition of Bitcoin. That's understandable given that Bitcoin doesn't exist and everyone just uses their imagination to describe Bitcoin in whatever way that is convenient for them.

You cannot prove that you have obtained the software license if the software vendor closes the business.

But you can always prove that you are in control of the funds on the Bitcoin ledger, if you do not lose your private key  :)

Even if no one in this world can confirm that he sent you these funds.

You are not in control of funds. You are in control of a number. Number is an abstraction used to express the quantity of funds. So funds and number are two different things. In blockchain you have numbers not funds. Funds are fictional or nonexistent.

You are not the first and you won't be the last person to think Bitcoin does not exist. The last time I checked Paypal ex-CEO even compare Bitcoin to his autograph and if Bitcoin is indeed an illusion then I will be glad to be stuck in it forever cause if the government could not fulfill their promises and also give people the truth worth of democracy while Bitcoin does.

I don't think anyone needs a babysitter Ir your opinion about Bitocoin here cause we are all aware of what Bitcoin.

This is actually Bitcoin. It is immaterial and intangible, but it does exist, and this is what Satoshi said and he did not lie to anyone. You deny the existence of Bitcoin because you cannot see it or touch it, but you believe in the existence of electricity even though you do not see it or touch it either??!!!
The era of money that can be touched by hand and carried from one place to another is over, when you own bitcoin you really don't own a tangible physical thing but only exists as data on the block chain and that's enough for everyone. As long as everyone recognizes it and accepts it as a means of payment, where is the problem then??

Yes, you are right that we are in control of a number. that's why we called it "Digital-Currency" or "e-currency". There are many more Digital-currency or e-currency are exist but the main difference with Bitcoin and Other Digital currency is "Decentralisation", it is not any Govt-issued asset or currency. Bitcoin is ruled by Decentralised authority without having any 3rd-party feature, this decentralization feature makes it a more demandable and valuable asset.

Now look at the world Banking system, when you deposit money into your bank account they just add a number as your balance, the funds are controlled by the bank and you just get a number as balance, in this case, you are not in control over your funds cause bank is not decentralised. But in the case of Bitcoin, it is only you who is in controlling both numbers & funds cause it is fully decentralised.

Well you seem to have finally touched upon the crux of your debate: Where do the coins come from and who controls it?

The coins come the network - not a central authority. That means that (in the case of BTC) there is no central authority.

As for Fiat, I refer you to this article (https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/money/2020/05/12/coronavirushow-u-s-printing-dollars-save-economy-during-crisis-fed/3038117001/)  Specifically this bit:

With just a few keystrokes the Gov says, "We now have xxx more money and want you (banks) to purchase bonds against it". That is no different than an autonomous network saying "here are more coins based on the work you performed". Where there IS a difference is that the BTCnetwork will never produce more than 21 million BTC which of course means that whatever value people assign to BTC can never be diluted by the random production of more BTC out of thin air.

I also doubt it before because I couldn't use it in real life and it is just on the internet and I need to convert it first or sell it to other people before becoming a real money for me.
But that is how it is on this planet everything has it's value depending on the person who see's it,
A piece of rare rock of fossil could be worthless for others but for some it is priceless collection.
If you would say that Bitcoin is an illusion then all the telco company that we are paying to provide internet and mobile loads are also selling lies as well because it is just all a program.

I do respect on each everyones view towards things which does actually have some point but it can be totally be opposed on if you do tend to look
on regarding into its demand. No thing could really progress out if those views are indeed true but instead people do see it as an advantage instead.
Yes, its a piece of code but thinking off on what are the benefits and opportunities that it gives then that what makes it popular or known.
Theres nothing wrong to presume up things but for sure you would really be having change of mind as we progress on.

It's a matter of social agreement what do we use numbers for.

But let's do not confuse machines and software that operate on numbers (computers, applications) with numbers themselves.
Bitcoin as software (an application capable of creating a monetary network, a network protocol) is a tremendous achievement, perhaps the greatest in the history of mankind.

Satoshi invented money harder even than gold (no one can modify the BTC supply cap, even social agreement might not be enough anymore), and infinitely more useful than gold.

There is nothing nonsensical about my argument.  By replying you have acknowledged the existence of time.  If time didn't exist then you would Not have been able to reply. 

Time is a human concept.  Humans free falling in space was just a concept. 

MONEY is just a concept.   Bitcoin....  Just a concept.   its not even money not really its just a method of counting that is very difficult to mess with.   We invest that phantom number with imaginary value  .... Just Like Money.  weird isn't it? 

And since you didn't understand My Basic idea of things that clearly don't actually exist But, also clearly Do exist. I don't think you can wrap your head around bitcoin and you should just let the adults do the thinking.

And we have refuted your argument something like 30 times now.  Which is why I think you are a bot or a Child at this point. 

I don't really know if bitcoin is a big risk for the future if all of them join. But what I feel right now, the point taken from bitcoin is the technology, even if bitcoin is not initially correct, such as for illegal transactions, illegal weapons and others. By making bitcoin a means of investment it becomes better. Bitcoin also has no physical, but in the digital world he is very famous. I just enjoyed it while I could.

You refuted nothing. You haven't even addressed my premises. You just keep talking nonsense.

When I say to you that you own 50 apartments in Hawaii, these apartments are concept in your head. If I put that concept into a database as data: name - 'Nhazwrath," quantity -  "50", asset name - "apartments", your ownership of the apartments still exists only as a concept in your head. You don't own any apartments in reality.

In the same way, when Satoshi Nakamoto said to you via his software that you (your address) own xx Bitcoins, these Bitcoins are just concept in your head. They are imaginary, not real. Just like the above apartments. Puting quantity into a database doesn't make you the owner of something. All you have in blockchain is quantity of imaginary Bitcoins. Bitcoins don't exist in reality, only in fantasy. And in fantasy, you can be and own whatever you want.

Do you now understand why you're talking nonsense?

Satoshi invented no money. He invented how to store lies into a database and make others to believe that these lies are true. And make them even to pay for transferring these lies from one person to another. And this is indeed a tremendous achievement.

Yes, Bitcoin is immaterial and intangible just like any thought. It exists only in human mind, not in reality. In my mind I am the richest person in the world just like you are the owner of Bitcoins. In fantasy, everything is possible.

drop a bitcoin wallet address.

i will send you 10 bucks in bitcoin.  Money where my mouth is.  note.  it tends to move around since markets havnt yet come in to large scale agreement of what bitcoin is worth.  

Once you have that 10 bucks.  go buy a coffee with it and then tell me its not money.  

=>

If a coffee shop give me coffee because I told them via Bitcoin software that quantity is money that doesn't make my statement true. Money is not quantity, but a thing measured with quantity. I could just as well go to a coffee shop, order a coffee and pay it by writing number 1 on a peace of paper. This won't make number "1" money, but coffee shop owner stupid. Number is an abstraction, it holds no value and it is impossible to compare it to the value of the coffee to find out whether the "exchange" is beneficial or not. So exchanging coffee or anything for numbers is stupid. You exchange coffee for things, existing things - other goods, debt (fiat money), services or labor. And you use numbers only to express the quantity of these existent things.

It's hilarious that the long rant uses a digital asset, a software license, to claim that Bitcoin doesn't exist.

I can understand that argument being used for physical gold or silver, but a software license? Those operate more or less the same as Bitcoin minus the public blockchain part.

Rather amazing someone had the energy to type all of that up and doesn't even realize how your Bitcoins are secured, and why they can't be spent by anybody else. It's particularly funny given that Bitcoin uses a UTXO model where you really do own your coins, v/ the Account model used by Ethereum which is more like the "number in a ledger" example she cites. Both, though, are valid so long as the coins can only be spent, or an account debited, by the owner.

Your argument is so funny ...

So it is more valid if a government prints a number on a piece of paper and tells you what the value of that piece of paper is, because they determine that by printing more or less of that toilet paper money? (People like you still believe fiat currencies are linked to Gold)

What happens if a software developer creates a software program or a application for your mobile phone? (Example : Apple Pay / debit/credit cards / Internet Banking / NFC payments / IMPS, NEFT, RTGS, IMPS)  .....all of these use digital "numbers" reflected of a centralized database to transfer value.)

You are such a Fiat sheep....  ;D   ....The world of payment systems and currencies are changing and people like you are clinging to the past.  ;D ;D ;D

You are holding onto a "Titanic" that are sinking... and you are still singing and dancing and ignoring the tragedy that are happening with government controlled currencies.  ;D ;D ;D

The government prints numbers on a peace of paper to measure debt. So I am not exchanging things for numbers but for debt ownership. I explained in the OP how this debt gets paid by the borrowers. In the past there was ownership of gold measured with numbers. Today it is the ownership of debt. Gold and debt exist. Debt is protected via collateral. That's why you need to whole banking system - the middleman, who will ensure the debt that you own gets paid. Bitcoin on the other hand doesn't exist and all you have is numbers. Numbers that express the ownership of nothing. That's why you don't need a middleman. You just transfer numbers and pretend they quantify imaginary thing that you call "bitcoin".

In my mind I have around 1500 BTC, but in reality I won't be accepted by the network if I told them so. So is it really in fantasy? :-\

Money is anything that is accepted by a community of people as a medium of exchange. Whether if it's physically (banknotes, coins) or digitally represented, in this case an immutable ledger, if some of us agree that it's useful, its units will start having value.

It depends on that number. If the number

• Cannot be erased no matter the excuse.
• Can only be transacted by the owner.
• Can be accessed by anyone in the world 24/7/365.

Then, I don't find any reasons why it shouldn't be valuated.

Just because it isn't used for expressing the ownership of governments' debts, doesn't mean that it can't.

So your idea for a "perfect" currency is a currency that are based on debt? ===> https://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

The imaginary "debt" that are being controlled or rather uncontrolled by corrupt governments around the world? You might be one of the lucky people who live in a first world country where the demise of fiat currencies are slowed down and manipulated by a very clever government... but for many people living in third world countries... that reality is already showing it's ugly face. (Hyperinflation -- Venezuela, Hungary, Zimbabwe, and Yugoslavia)

Satoshi Nakamoto created this technology to eliminate the corrupted "middleman" (Governments & Banks) and to stop the manipulation of the currency by replacing that with real "Supply and demand".

Why should people only have one currency? Why should the use of that currency be enforced with guns and violence? Why should a few elites determine the value of that currency? ====> Bitcoin was created to give people an alternative option and a choice if they wanted to use the Fiat currency or if they wanted to take the control of their own wealth and to use it as an alternative.  ;)

Bravo! Money is anything. Any THING. And thing is something that exists in the real world independent of concepts created in the human mind. Numbers are concepts and they exist only in human mind. That's why they are not money. When I count existent things in my room, the concept that my mind creates from the process of counting is number. It's not money, but number. And as such it can be put on paper or digital medium. That what was put is not a thing with value but just an  auxiliary means to express the quantity of things in my room. Without the things, this number is referred to nothing. That's exactly the quantity in the blockchain next to your address - number referred to nothing. And nothing cannot be money.

I don't tend to just quote other people's messages as replies, but:

I have no ideas. I am just stating the fact that quantity on paper bills or banking accounts quantifies debt ownership. Debt is not imaginary. It is created with every granted loan, paid with every loan repayment, and protected with collateral. And yes, in some countries the debt is bad, but that has nothing to do with non-existence of Bitcoin.

Okay so Bitcoin is a data and nothing else according to op. So what? We are holding that data because it is valuable.
What is fiat? Just a piece of paper with some promisory note written on it?

If you go and ask an economist about the definition of currency, He will most likely tell you that the stuff issued by the "National Credit" endorsement is currency.
But that is the national legal tender, and history shows that currency appeared before the concept of "country".
So, what exactly is currency?
It's actually two words: consensus.
It is you, me and him, our common recognition and common understanding.
Bitcoin has global consensus.

Sure, true data has value. Fake data is worthless. Data in the blockchain is fake because it quantities nonexistent Bitcoins.
What exactly is a currency? A thing that exists in the real world independent of the concepts of the human mind. Bitcoin exists only as a concept in the human mind. So it cannot be a currency.

It has a lot to do with Bitcoin, because YOU are using it as a comparison. Answer me this... Can computer code have value? (Let me answer for you, because I know you are cherry picking certain things in people's responses and you are just answering those... Yes, it can have a value, because we are paying for digital software like MS Windows or Office / Applications in Play Store etc.. etc.)

So if a well-known artists creates digital art work and he/she link that to a transferable Blockchain (Smart Contract) ...then people will pay for that art... because there are a demand for it.

So, Satoshi created a "digital" token that are limited and transferable, so people can take ownership of that digital token and it is displayed on a public ledger that are shared.

Soon Governments and Banks will have their own tokens & Blockchains ....and Fiat slaves like you, will once again be forced to use that. (Why is there not a global ban on Crypto currencies?.... because government and Banks want to develop their own)  ;D ;D ;D

Code is a set of program instructions that do something. Hence, code is something that exists. Numbers are human concepts that express the quantity of existent things. So you can say that you own 10 (quantity) MS Office programs. But quantity in itself is just an abstraction, mathematical concept of the human mind. In blockchain, you have numbers, but not the thing these numbers are supposed to quantify. The thing is nonexistent, and as such it is called bitcoin. P.S. nonexistent things have no value, not even zero. Dust particle has zero value, because it exists. Value is the property of existent things. The phrase "value of Bitcoin" or "Bitcoin has zero value" is an oxymoron given it gives the property of value to something that doesn't exist.

Satoshi created software via which he tells lies after POW: "go spend electricity, show the POW and my software will tell you that you own 50 peaces of a digital asset called bitcoin." That's a lie. No address holder owns digital asset. It only holds number next to its address. Number that quantifies nothing. And nothing is called "bitcoin".

Your prophecy on governments and banks I don't want to comment.

What if I told you that there is something backing those BTC numbers?

Just like there is a tangible item backing each MS office program (the license key), the item that backs the quantity of BTC is the transaction output.

Whereas you can get more than one copy of a MS office program in the activated state by possessing more than one key, by possessing more than one "mass" of BTC you get a transaction output in a different size.

Just as not all MS Office keys are created equally (those 10 keys might as well be for Personal, Business, Office 365 and Enterprise), neither are transaction outputs.

MS Office license keys (just a string of alphanumeric "codes") the "numbers" back the virtual tangible MS office "source code", the "program".

And similarly, the BTC "numbers" back the virtual tangible transaction outputs which are stored on the ledger.

Get it?

Hey, this could be a good guest post for Bitcoin Magazine, "Bitcoin exists; beyond the numbers on the balance".

I have personally called your bluff and put money on the line that Bitcoin is Nothing, by offering you that Nothing to Buy coffee with. 

Since you are currently refusing the bitcoin for coffee you are unserious in your arguments.  Any serious truth seeker would have taken the offer and opportunity to prove me wrong.

I know that I like proving people wrong.  =>

Ok, let me make this easier for you by asking you a question. If bitcoin is a thing that exists, then you don't need a new investor to voluntarily accept quantity next to your address in the exchange for his funds. Rather, you can benefit from the thing behind the quantity, which you claim exists. However, if Bitcoin doesn't exist then you are left only with quantity next to your address. Since quantity by itself is just a mathematical concept you are left with nothing. Now the question: can you benefit from the quantity next to your address without a new investor voluntarily accepting this quantity?

Let's suppose I say to you: "give me your bike and I will say to you that you own 10 eggs". You accept the offer. You give me your bike and after that I say: "you now own 10 eggs." Was that market exchange or gift from your side? Well, the latter because I gave you nothing. I just said something. I made a statement. Now, what's the difference if I put my statement into a database as data, instead of name "eggs" I use name "bitcoin", I use software for making the statement and my name is Satoshi Nakamoto?

I don't see a wallet address where I can send Bitcoin.

Still not serious I see.

You could've saved us the stress and time by going straight to the point, writing a thousand words without concrete information is the same thing as spamming. It pains my eyes to come to the forum and start reading negative research about bitcoin and Satoshi. Bitcoin teaches us that scarcity gives value, the lesser people with bitcoin the better.

So there's an application called wallet, through which you wanna tell me that I own a specific quantity of Bitcoin. You wanna repeat Satoshi's lies. Ok. I want to tell you something as well. But, not by using fancy application. Instead, I am going to tell you directly: "Nhazwrath you now own 10 Ferraris". There you go. Via declaration I just made you the owner of a specific quantity of luxury sport cars. You see, I didn't even ask you to show me the POW like that guy Satoshi. That guy asks the POW from people and only then he is willing to declare them the owners of revolutionary digital asset via his software. I declared you the owner of luxury sport cars without the POW, without fancy application and without a software.

Now, how is the declaration that you read in your wallet different from declaration that you read here on forum? Both declarations have quantity and name and both are referred to you. And in both cases you are unable to show things which the declarations talk about. All you can show are declarations themselves. Nothing else. How naive you have to be to think that you own a thing just because someone said so by using fancy applications? And how naive you have to be to give up an actual ownership in the exchange for a declared one?

You seem to get stuck on "quantity" for some reason and your definition of quantity and what other people's definition of quantity must be, is open for interpretation.  ::)  You are saying that "other code" like MS Office is different than Bitcoin, but the Bitcoin protocol are a combination of ideas and inputs from several Open source developers from all over the world ==> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/graphs/contributors

Bitcoin exist and you can physically see the lines of code and the output that it generates and the energy that it use and the nodes it is runs on... so your whole theory falls flat...when you actually know what you are talking about. It is as real as the numbers that are entered into a Bank account and/or Reserve Bank.... only difference is... one is backed by debt and the other by Supply and demand for a virtual token.  ;)

Well I always like a constructive debate.


Going back to your analogy about bitcoin and MS Office licenses, you are right that there is something behind the quantity of MS office licenses - the MS office programs.

In bitcoin you can't benefit from the transaction outputs behind the quantity of bitcoin. That's because MS office licenses are goods, and not financial assets.

Gold, cash, Tesla stock, futures, these are all financial assets because they are backed by something that doesn't have a tangible benefit to people (ownership of debt). Same reason why sneakers, phones etc. are not financial assets because there's no ownership of debt backing them, it's some physical benefit backing them.

Now let's prove that bitcoin does have an ownership of debt:

When some country mints new banknotes (the US did that in 2013 if my memory's correct), they must find something to back this quantity of banknotes. So they take a ton of foreign exchange reserves (such as cash or precious metals) and use that as the basis of the debt - ownership debt relative to these foreign assets.

In Bitcoin, the "foreign exchange reserves" are investors' fiat currency. So you can view the quantity of bitcoin backed by ownership of investors fiat reserves and this is precicesly why the price is able to go up and why it was originally zero: The more fiat that investors bring, the more reserves that can be repurposed as debt.

Combine that with the bitcoin supply being fixed, and you have a constant total quantity versus an ever increasing asset reserve.


You can't. That's precisely what my last two paragraphs were about.

When we say "financial assets" what we actually mean is claims and liabilities. When you own goods, no subjects existe with the liability to provide you something nor you have claim towards the subject, because goods in themselves have tangible benefit. But when you own a financial asset, which have no tangible benefit, such subjects exist. And you own a claim towards them. In my OP I gave the examples of liabilities in the case of fiat, stocks or bonds and subjects (borrowers, company, bond issuer) that have these liabilities. In case of newly issued banknotes by the central banks, subjects are commercial banks or governments. That's because new banknotes are issued as loans to said subjects. So, the bases for financial assets are liabilities of actual subjects. And every holder of the financial assets has clam towards these subjects.

On the other hand, holders of blockchain quantities have no claims to actual subjects, given that no subjects with liabilities are created when new quantity is put into the blockchain. So no financial asset exists behind blockchain quantities. That's why without new investors voluntarily accepting the quantity, holders have nothing.

What you are actually saying is that my investment in blockchain quantity is backed by my own investment(my fiat reserves), which is obviously nonsensical. All that I and prior investors did, was paying off the existing members of blockchain. Our funds didn't end up as reserves for our blockchain quantities, but as spending of old investors.

That's pretty much what I was talking about when I mentioned "ownership of debt".


In fact there are claims and liabilities. The owner of the private key for an address who sends bitcoin to another owner owns a "claim" of the BTC over the other person, who holds the "liability".


Yes.


Even though the only thing happening was the nodes writing the transaction on the public ledger, that does not mean that funds are not moving around as reserves. Bitcoin completely abstracts this concept because its own protocol has no concept of financial reserves, which also happens to be the reason why random new cryptocurrencies have almost $0 market value when they are listed. It is the process of listing the cryptocurrency on an exchange that enables the exchanges themselves to attach their financial reserves (their own users' cash) onto bitcoin, hence why every exchange has a slightly different price.

This widget on Google that we call the "BTC price" is not an aggregation of all these prices, it is nothing more than Coinbase's BTC-to-USD ticker.

Spending of old investors' money, by itself, does not imply that those investors are not getting claims to their spent bitcoins (or liabilities for their bought bitcoins).

It seems you didn't get what the liabilities actually mean in financial assets. The absence of new investors is the best way to explain this. So, you have a stock and no new investor is willing to buy it from you. Does that mean you are left with nothing? No, because the company has the liability towards you and that liability is called equity. Equity is paid to you either as dividend or buyback and liquidation value. In bonds, it is the bond issuer who has the liability towards you and that liability is called principal. In fiat, borrowers and banks have the liability. Borrowers must use quantities that you hold to pay off the debt, which is why, they are forced to exchange their goods, services and labor with you. The banks must liquidate the loans with issued quantities, which is why in the case of borrowers default, banks have the liability to exchange foreclosed property of borrowers for your quantity. After all, deposits are explicitly stated in the balance sheets of the banks as liabilities.

So whatever your interpretation of claims and liabilities is, it is completely wrong. Because, in the absence of new investors no subjects exist that have the liability to provide something to the holders of blockchain quantities.

I will not accept that you gave me 10 eggs if you didn't actually give me 10 eggs, nor will I accept that you gave me 10 Ferrarris if those cars are not in my garage and I have possession of the key that turns them on.

If you say you give me 10 BTC or 10 bitcoins though, I will also not accept that you actually gave me 10 bitcoins until I see the quantity in my wallet, verified by miners. If it's nothing to you, I could care less, because to me, it is something.

But until I can verify in my address that I control, that I have the private keys to, that the transaction was confirmed in a block, then you did not send me any bitcoins.

At this point, it is irrelevant what the US dollar (or fiat) price is of those bitcoins. If a block explorer does not say I have it, you did not send it, then I don't have the bitcoins. If my wallet software (that does not look too fancy as I just use either Bitcoin Core or Electrum) does not indicate the addresses contain bitcoin, then you didn't send me any bitcoins.

Beyond all this discussion, it becomes either academic or moot or pointless as most of us don't have time to explain anything else to you. If it's being talked about, that's something, not nothing.

Again, exchanges have the liability for you when you buy bitcoins from it. Exchanges are required to hold at least enough bitcoins in their systems to stay solvent, for their users to be able to withdraw (It's common sense, although there is yet to be legislation anywhere that enforces this). The ability to withdraw the bitcoins is how the liability is paid back to you.

It is worth noting that there is no concept of claims, liabilities, or reserves outside exchanges, at software and hardware wallets. This is what makes it a successful decentralized currency in the first place, because outside the exchanges there is no company or bond issuer or bank that can become insolvent and alter the value of a bitcoin.

Outside exchanges, bitcoin is not connected to any other currency's exchange rate.

Inside exchanges, it's connected to whatever exchange's currency rates it has.

Also inside the exchanges, the bitcoins inside exchange cold storage/hot wallets aren't connected to any exchange rate, because it only in the exchange software that connects to the bitcoins (however it represents them in its software) these rates. The exchange software is the one that enforces these rates, by sending or receiving the appropriate amount of cash from its bank & payment processor when a bitcoin withdrawal or deposit happens, respectively.

It also happens to be the way stock, bond and forex exchange software works as well. Even these assets can have different prices on different exchanges and it happens all the time.

So you want a real comparison to company equity and bond principal and not exchanges, OK. But it will be an apples to oranges comparison because bitcoin is a currency, not a stock, bond or loan.

You probably know that in bitcoin we have miners who extract a block reward that becomes increasingly smaller every 4 years. So the total supply of bitcoin that has currently been mined can be used as a statistic by which to calculate the bitcoin price. It cannot determine the price by itself. Just like equity, principal and how much your bank loaned you can't determine those prices as well (in the last case it would be the price of the debt should you want to sell it to a third party).

---

Finally, I got enough talking points to write my opinion piece. Now I can spend my time doing more productive things :)

Interesting. So, you will not accept my statement that you have 10 eggs if I didn't actually give you 10 eggs. You will not accept my statement that you have 10 Ferrarris if those cars are not in your garage and you have possession of the key that turns them on. Nor will you accept my statement that you have 10 BTC if the quantity is not in your wallet. Ok. Then I have only one question for you: why then are you accepting Satoshi's statements that you have xx BTC if Satoshi never actually gave you BTC, but only quantity statement - "xx", and name "BTC"? Because quantity statement and name is something that you recieved from me as well: "10", "eggs", "10", "Ferraris", "10", "BTC". And I have no problem arranging for you to have them verified on the blockchain and to get you private keys and address that you control. If I arrange all that will you give me xx USD for the quantity statement on nonexistent Ferraris? If not, why are you giving xx USD for Satoshi's quantity statements on nonexistent BTC?


The fact that exchanges have the liability towards you to transfer quantities to your wallet, has nothing to do with the fact that in the absence of new investors no subjects exist that have the liability to provide you something for these quantities.

Also, you keep talking about Bitcoin. Bitcoin doesn't exist. Only fake quantities on Bitcoin exist. If Bitcoin would exist you would be able to show either tangible or intangible good that provides direct benefit, or financial instrument that have subject with the liability to provide you something for the quantity in your wallet.

Why the wall of text OP? You tryin' to be different from other people who spread FUD in this forum? Because this isn't the way that you should've worked because not everyone will have the patience to read your rhetoric or essay whatever you want to call it because it is a wall of text, try again next time. By the way, why do you believe in God when you can't see him/her but don't believe in bitcoin when there is a code that proves it's existence?

I believe in God because I have evidences for God's existence. On the other hand, there aren't evidences for Bitcoin's existence. Only statements about its quantity that Satoshi's software puts in the blockchain. Statements aren't evidences, but products of human mind. Evidences exist outside of human mind.

Regarding the rest. I don't answer personal or non sequitur questions.

If you can give me 10 BTC or provide the private keys to the address that have them, and allow me to transfer it to my own address, then I will accept that you have given me 10 BTC, provided at least 1 confirmation or block of the transaction.

If you have no problem arranging for all that, then I accept you have given me the BTC. But you have not made any arrangements at all. There is an address in my profile, you can try sending there if you want to prove something. So far, there is not.

I have no interest in your Ferraris and I'm certainly not paying for them. If you give them to me, that's different.

You have not given me 10 BTC yet, so ... this is all pointless.

If you are merely talking semantics, it makes no difference to me whether it's a quantity statement of a supposedly non-existent Bitcoins. We all know it's control or access to the same quantities but everyone accepts it as just "you sent me bitcoin, or I paid you bitcoin" which can be easily confirmed, if you actually sent it.

So send or do not send, I don't care if you think it exists or it doesn't, if it shows up in my wallet and I can confirm it independently from you, together with all the thousand of other full nodes out there, then I will accept you sent me BTC. If it's on the blockchain, it exists on the blockchain.

Satoshi has been out of the picture for several years, you can leave him out of it.



You said you believe in God but you also sound like an atheist. That seems contradictory.

Ive offered to buy the guy coffee with BTC but hes refused to put up an address.  So unserious in his arguments.

"Proof of gods existence" is another clue of what we are arguing with.   You cannot prove the existence of god. You also cannot disprove it.   Which is why most scientists ignore the question.  Its not a question which science is capable of answering.

So I've come to the conclusion what we are dealing with here is a philosopher.  Of which most are thinkers but never really get anywhere.  A few definitely do but most do not.  Our philosopher has already decided his answer and is attempting to apply science in the wrong direction.

Although Bitcoin doesn't have a y physical existence like cards or fiat but it is some database in the system which add on the balance on your UTXO set and vice versa for blockchain to keep record of total Bitcoins and all the transactions.But if you say there is no existence then you are totally wrong and only person who will agree with you is Donald Trump or night be you have just turned his words to long article without any technical base presented here.So my some questions from you are regarding this:

1) If Bitcoin is made out from thin air or does not exist why are miners all around the world spending millions on building mining farms using ASIC machines and huge electricity consumption just to solve cryptographic puzzle in order to earn rewards or say 6.25 Bitcoins?

2) What exactly major companies like Tesla, MicroStrategy are holding in their reserve assest if they have made billion dollar worth investment?

3) Daily thousand of transaction are made and that not only trust because if you buy stuff from the market they will not give you free until they receive funds.So how do these transactions are settled without any funds or coins?

4) You just made investment in the Bitcoin from your wallets that automatically add intangible coins or say add the balance on your Bitcoin address in the form of database so all this is a false play According to you?

The Bitcoin network is running from the past 12 years successfully and many will come like you making false claim but it won't matter in the end.

***yaaaawn***

tokens are inherently abstractions of something real, that's what "token" means. welcome to monetary theory 101

[/thread]

No, I can give you the same thing Satoshi's software does - statement on BTC existence. There you go: "Dabs -  10 BTC". So, this statement is informing you that you now own 10 bitcoins. There's no difference between this statement, and that of Satoshi's software, which you can read in your wallet. Both talk about quantity and name of a thing that doesn't exist in reality. The fact that Satoshi's statement is written after POW, shown via fancy application, and transfered between names ( blockchain addresses), doesn't change the fact that it's just a statement. Statements don't make things coming into existence. It is really mind blowing how you people cannot tell the difference between statements about things and things themselves.

You have offered me to buy coffee with statement about BTC's existence. Not with a thing/asset/commodity which name is BTC. No such thing exists in the real world. That's why in the absence of people who would accept this statement you are left with nothing, no asset, no commodity.

You're obviously wrong, OP thought that when he/she gets bitcoin, OP thinks that someone will send him physical coins like quarters and cents but I guess got disappointed and started to rant in this forum.

I came here to teach people the difference between statements about things and things themselves. Regarding tokens. Token is a physical or digital voucher redeemable by the issuer. When you say that bitcoin exists as a token you are actually saying that blockchain address holders can redeam quantity next to their addresses at the issuer of the quantity. And something like that is impossible. So no tokens exist in Bitcoin scheme. Only statements about them. False statements.

So  Can You Touch a Photon?  You cannot touch a photon 100% of what you know about photons is through secondary effects.  can you see photons? No you cannot, everything you think you see about photons is through secondary effects.   Any light entering your eye is only perceived through the electromagnetic force After it interacts with another electric field.

By itself its completely invisible/untouchable it doesn't even exist to you unless it interacts. 

Photons and electrons are the same family of particles called Bosons and Leptons since Bitcoin is stored as electrons in human defined patterns.  It totally exists.  As a Human defined pattern enforced by miners equipment.  You are literally attempting to deny the existence of the Universe and Humanity's effect of Divine ability to Change reality at this point. ( yes I threw in the divine   => )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon  I don't like to use wiki but as far as I can tell its correct in this case.

I can't drop down below quantum force.  Yet it still moves. 

The "statement" on my software does not indicate you have sent me 10 BTC. Please give me the transaction ID so I may verify it. Thank you.

Of course it doesn't. Nor does the transaction ID. Both have nothing to do with BTC. They are just statements. BTC is nonexistent.

So you are mentioning things detectible to our senses or artificial equipment. But why exactly? What is the point? I am not saying that Bitcoin is untouchable or undetectable. I am saying it is nonexistent. Only statements about it exist. Quantity statements in the blockchain written by the Satoshi's software. Why is it so hard for you to differentiate between statement about a thing and the thing itself?

As per your logic:
1. Gold bonds issued by Governments are fake - they are not backed by real gold.

2. Stocks that are sold on earlier in a day on intra-day trading are fake - because the seller never possessed the stock to begin with.

3. Fiat currencies are fake - "fiat" in itself stands for "trust" in the government for that currency, but it is known fact that government doesn't back the currency completely with other assets.

4. Entertainers, magicians, live singers, etc, all are fake - since once you see them perform and pay for it, you dont have anything tangible that you can carry.

5. A digital painting or a NFT is a fake - since i can never hang one on my wall at my home.

The list can go on. You're right, everything is illusory and nothing is the truth. Why are you so wise in your ways!  :P

Well, I guess if BTC is nonexistent, then you can't send me any right? I think we're done talking to you. As Satoshi once said, if you don't get it, we don't really have time to explain it to you.

So by your OWN logic.  why exactly?  Whats the point?  Why are you denying reality?  Because at this point you are.    Your clothes might as well not exist by your own non logic.   as I said previously  Philosopher with a bad idea trying to work backwards.   Never works.   Good for a useless document on the wall I am sure though.   

OP thinks it's that easy to just declare you haave a bitcoin as if you are writing a cheque for yourself. Also, why does OP thinks that it's all lies? Did OP got scammed by someone out of his/her bitcoin, that's why OP is spreading this kind of stupid FUD.

It's not per my logic. This is per my logic:

1. Gold bonds are statements about debt. Debt exists.
2. Stocks are statements about companies. Companies exist.
3. Fiat currencies are statements about debt. Debt exists.
4. Entertainers, magicians, live singers, etc, all exist.
5. A digital painting or a NFT exists.

So, what we have above are either statements about things, or the things themselves.

In the blockchain you have Satoshi's statements on nonexistent Bitcoins.

So, what's your point exactly?

Right. I can just send you Satoshi's words on it. Satoshi said via his software that BTC exists, and you all blindly believe him that it does by exchanging his words in a digital form.

Not my logic. My logic simply differentiate between someone's words about a thing and the thing itself. So, your response makes no sense.

You declare it after POW. But that what is declared to exist is still nonexistent. Things don't come into existence via declarations.

im not going to requote its getting long.


Does zero exist?      ( 0 )..   ?  Does it exist when I write it?  Does it exist if I only think about it?  Does it exist if I don't think or write about it?

As a representation of nothing or lack of something. How does this work, if I write 10? 

I mean I wrote 0  but I can't have written 0 if it means nothing at all?

2 things that cant exist but clearly we can think about them  0 and Infinities.  and my favorite bit of silliness  Infinity plus 1  how can you have an infinity if I can simply add to the statement +1 ? is it wrong? maybe ,But real, it is.   How can it be not real if I can say it? or write it?  It might be WRONG

Bitcoin is a Human imposition on the non existence of something.  therefore it becomes real because we said so.  having you say it say the opposite does not negate the fact that it IS because you thought about it.  By thinking about it, it becomes real    have fun !

Zero exists as a concept in the human mind for no quantity that you can represent with a symbol, "0", for example.

Bitcoin exists as a concept in the human mind that is represented with symbols "BTC", and whose quantity is written in the blockchain. In the same way, in my mind I can create the concept of a thousand Donald Trumps and represent it with symbols "DTR", and "1,000" in some database. Then, we can buy and sell Donald Trump.

Right, I'll believe you when you can show me the transaction ID on the software, not here on this forum. That kind of "declaration" would be enough for me if I can view in a block explorer or the wallet software that it has declared some blocks or confirmation.

Otherwise, I don't believe you, you have not sent me any BTC.

If you'd like, send me a PM and I can give you an address not in my profile and I will confirm if you send any BTC to that address.

As I said already, it is impossible for me to sent you BTC. It is impossible also for Satoshi. That's why he, that is, his software, only sends statements about BTC. Like I did above for Donald Trump. Stop beating a dead horse and simply accept the fact that there is no such thing as Bitcoin.

Ok. I'll accept the fact you can't send me BTC. It does not exist for you. That's fine with me. Have a nice day.

But you won't risk somebody buying you coffee with it?  And by the way admitting that zero is a human concept you have to admit that Bitcoin is a human concept.  And we find zero quite useful don't we? Pretty good for something that's a representative of nothing!

We can make 0 and Bitcoin equals.  Since they are both representations of nothing.  According to you.

I can't believe people actually think about bitcoin like this  ::) as if they are so smart that they realize that a bitcoin can't be physically held. I don't think this person would think this way about gravity or physics or love or brand value or other "intangible" things. Whether something is "real" or not is just all perspective. By this logic the US dollar is certainly not real either. Probably even less real than bitcoin.

Nobody is able to send you BTC. Only symbols for it. BTC exists only in imagination, only in the human mind. Everything else traded in the market exists outside of the human mind (equity, debt, labor, services, cars, buildings, land, etc.). Given that Bitcoin exists only in imagination everyone defines it differently. Some even view it as a shiny coin which is why they create pictures of it.

No, they are both concepts. They don't actually exist in reality outside of the human mind. And both concepts can be represented with symbols: "zero", "0", "bitcoin",  "btc".

Debt also can't be physically held. But it exists outside of human mind. US dollar is debt. This debt is represented with symbols "USD", and numbers. Debt is real. It is explained in the OP how it is created and how it is paid.

What you don't want to understand is that debt can be represented to anything people agree upon and not just to what the government forces them to.

I still don't see a transaction id or hash. So, yes, no "symbols" have been sent. I know I should stop feeding the troll, but ... oh well. :)



Make up your mind. It does not exist. Now it exists.

It is actually impressive that the OP gave an intelligent discussion about Bitcoin but also against Bitcoin. At least he is not others who just throw shit at something and worse, make unintelligible statements about cryptocurrency in general, not just Bitcoin. Not well researched or read also does not give time to read the arguments of others and just simply talk shit about it. He made some points and that is good. If that is his belief then let him be, we are all entitled to our own opinions.

How it becomes intelligent? I've read the context of this post and I found it not interesting anymore and just like what others say, this thread is quite too long to read especially for that person who is too lazy to read that kind of long explanation. Just get it to the point on what you are pointing about and make it more clear next time. Bitcoin is not created just for nothing, Satoshi Nakamoto is a great person and a smart person because just imagine that he creates bitcoin and look what is the value of bitcoin today, he is clearly making a successful outcome out of it.

you say bitcoin doesn't exist, bitcoin is just a theory and satoshi tricked us with his theory, if you say so, i think you are the same as elon musk, maybe you are a crypto whale, who wants to scare weak hands, so you can take a lot of profit and can buy a lot of bitcoins. Enough is enough, don't post negative things about bitcoin anymore..

You claim BTC does not exist.   But you also acknowledge that Zero Doesn't exist. 

Since Zero and BTC are Both non existent how can we even think about such things if they do not exist?  You/We clearly do think that Zero not only exists but has great value.  You can apply the exact same logic to BTC.  You cannot get around this argument since you have already said zero doesn't exist either.

These statement have equal value.  since neither exists. 

Are we having fun yet?

By your argument all the transistors in any microchip turning on and off to produce computer logic also doesn't 'produce' anything and only consumes electricity... does this make all the software in the world, including Facebook, Google, etc. non existent?

Furthermore, Bitcoin doesn't need to produce anything in order to be valuable... it just needs to represent value, and the agreement on how valuable that representation is has grown exponentially since its inception.

This post does not exist, on a website that isn't here, across hardline networks transmitting into thin air.

My point is that you're missing out the fact that a person has to mine to earn a Bitcoin - a number that signifies the efforts that are put in by the miner to mine the cryptocurrency. The more the one mines bitcoin, the more the one is bound to receive Bitcoin - which acts as a Proof of work. You could consider a Bitcoin as credit to a person for certifying a set of transactions within the blockchain. Once the person earns that credit, the person can then transfer such credit to any other person for a monetary value. So Bitcoin becomes a transferrable credit for having worked on the blockchain.

Just like the "services" of an entertainer are intangible, this "credit for working" is also intangible. Just because something is intangible and you do not perceive value, does not actually make it non-existent and worthless. There are others who will pay for "credit for working".

Further, given that Bitcoin facilitates P2P transfers, it is considered as a currency of the future. Should everyone accept it, your argument of it is just a number wont hold good. Also, you need to consider that Bitcoin is not a fiat, it has value only because of people accepting it because of its features such as immutability. Just because you find Bitcoins to be non-existent, you wont be able to delete someone's bitcoins.

My statement was specific to sellers who engage in intraday trading and sell a stock that they don't even possess. Even if the company exists and the stock exists, the seller would not have the stock at the moment of selling the stock. But still it is considered as valid? Why? Because it is an acceptable practice.

Similarly, Bitcoin is creating a new practice that tends to give value to "credits for verifying transactions".

Really great topic and it matches my thoughts at some point.

We all really live in an illusory truth effect. What is money? Why does paper with $ symbols have value? Why do we exchange valuable things for some $$? When you check your bank's account online, you just see the numbers. When you pay, you give away nothing but the numbers. <-- From one point it looks like that but there is whole magic behind the scene. I suggest OP and anyone to check investopedia.com <-- A lot of interesting articles.

Btw, we were told that money can buy things. A lot of people don't know economics, finances, etc, that's where we get the illusory truth effect and just know that money can buy things :) What if your world is just a manipulation? What if we are a part of computer software? Someone created a new world with characters and put an algorithm in it to make it capable of thinking itself like AI, to create its own world in a dream. What if according to algorithm, dopamine is the key of motivation and each character has different levels of dopamine and is capable of manually boosting/decreasing this? There are a lot of "What if"...

I enjoyed reading this and think it is a good and well thought out argument, but nonetheless flawed.  First off image during the first 'pizza' transaction.  I'm sure the guy making the pizza was thinking why am I selling this pizza for something that doesn't even really exist?  Oh, well, just a pizza.  Now a decade + later none of us are really thinking the same way.  Back in the silk road days I was like, yeah, it doesn't really exist but I need to buy some stuff so how can I do it and then not be left holding any of the residual BTC.  Then in the FOMO era I became a believer and HODLer.  I just think it is hard now to argue that it doesn't exist.  My basic assumption is that it may not be worth what the market is saying, but yes it does exist.  Proof:  you can sell it on ward.  Some other tokens that are basically bogus company produced ponzi type pump and dump, in my mind I put them in a different category as not being real, even though you can sell them onward.  With BTC it seems like it is real and exists, and I don't buy the argument about fiat currency USD being more real.  It is just created on a computer terminal somewhere.  It used to be that governments were more concerned about the backing of currency with something real (eg. silver certificates), but that is a thing of the past.  . 

It doesn't exist in reality, it exists in Satoshi's fantasy. And Satoshi uses numbers in the blockchain to represent his fantasy.

I wasn't precise enough. Bitcon exists, but only as the product of Satoshi's imagination and as such it resides only in fantasy. In the blockchain you have representation of that fantasy.

Zero is word for the concept of non-existence of quantity.  BTC is word for the concept of money. Words exist. Concepts exist. But concepts exist in fantasy, not in reality. Bitcoin is money that exist in fantasy. It is represented with the word that exist in reality.

If I say that you own 10 Ferraris, and I write that statement down on paper, we have words on the medium that represent Ferraris that exist in fantasy. Likewise, if, via his software, Satoshi writes into the blockchain that some miner owns 10 Bitcoins, we have words on the medium that represent bitcoins that exist in Satoshi's fantasy. Things don't come into existence via words. Only if you are God. Satoshi is not God.

Oh, You came back.  You continue to deny this thing we call reality.  TV only exists due to electrons and ideas.  Bitcoin= electrons and ideas.   Just stop, you have hit embarrassment territory now.