Bitcoin Doesn’t Exist, Or How Satoshi Nakamoto Tells Lies To People

[Kong Hey Pakboy]

The "statement" on my software does not indicate you have sent me 10 BTC. Please give me the transaction ID so I may verify it. Thank you.

OP thinks it's that easy to just declare you haave a bitcoin as if you are writing a cheque for yourself. Also, why does OP thinks that it's all lies? Did OP got scammed by someone out of his/her bitcoin, that's why OP is spreading this kind of stupid FUD.

[Antithesis]

The illusory truth effect, refers to a phenomenon in which people, when hear the same false information repeated again and again, often come to believe it is true. Also, repetition of a such information increases its likelihood of being judged true. Even the most educated individuals are still prone to this effect. They may be skeptical of a false information the first time they hear it, but the more they are exposed to it, the more they start to feel like it’s true, and their previous knowledge is not able to prevent this.

As per your logic:
1. Gold bonds issued by Governments are fake - they are not backed by real gold.

2. Stocks that are sold on earlier in a day on intra-day trading are fake - because the seller never possessed the stock to begin with.

3. Fiat currencies are fake - "fiat" in itself stands for "trust" in the government for that currency, but it is known fact that government doesn't back the currency completely with other assets.

4. Entertainers, magicians, live singers, etc, all are fake - since once you see them perform and pay for it, you dont have anything tangible that you can carry.

5. A digital painting or a NFT is a fake - since i can never hang one on my wall at my home.

The list can go on. You're right, everything is illusory and nothing is the truth. Why are you so wise in your ways!  

It's not per my logic. This is per my logic:

1. Gold bonds are statements about debt. Debt exists.
2. Stocks are statements about companies. Companies exist.
3. Fiat currencies are statements about debt. Debt exists.
4. Entertainers, magicians, live singers, etc, all exist.
5. A digital painting or a NFT exists.

So, what we have above are either statements about things, or the things themselves.

In the blockchain you have Satoshi's statements on nonexistent Bitcoins.

So, what's your point exactly?

The "statement" on my software does not indicate you have sent me 10 BTC. Please give me the transaction ID so I may verify it. Thank you.

Of course it doesn't. Nor does the transaction ID. Both have nothing to do with BTC. They are just statements. BTC is nonexistent.

Well, I guess if BTC is nonexistent, then you can't send me any right? I think we're done talking to you. As Satoshi once said, if you don't get it, we don't really have time to explain it to you.

Right. I can just send you Satoshi's words on it. Satoshi said via his software that BTC exists, and you all blindly believe him that it does by exchanging his words in a digital form.

***yaaaawn***

tokens are inherently abstractions of something real, that's what "token" means. welcome to monetary theory 101

[/thread]

You're obviously wrong, OP thought that when he/she gets bitcoin, OP thinks that someone will send him physical coins like quarters and cents but I guess got disappointed and started to rant in this forum.

I came here to teach people the difference between statements about things and things themselves. Regarding tokens. Token is a physical or digital voucher redeemable by the issuer. When you say that bitcoin exists as a token you are actually saying that blockchain address holders can redeam quantity next to their addresses at the issuer of the quantity. And something like that is impossible. So no tokens exist in Bitcoin scheme. Only statements about them. False statements.

So  Can You Touch a Photon?  You cannot touch a photon 100% of what you know about photons is through secondary effects.  can you see photons? No you cannot, everything you think you see about photons is through secondary effects.   Any light entering your eye is only perceived through the electromagnetic force After it interacts with another electric field.

By itself its completely invisible/untouchable it doesn't even exist to you unless it interacts.  

Photons and electrons are the same family of particles called Bosons and Leptons since Bitcoin is stored as electrons in human defined patterns.  It totally exists.  As a Human defined pattern enforced by miners equipment.  You are literally attempting to deny the existence of the Universe and Humanity's effect of Divine ability to Change reality at this point. ( yes I threw in the divine   => )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon  I don't like to use wiki but as far as I can tell its correct in this case.

I can't drop down below quantum force.  Yet it still moves.  

So you are mentioning things detectible to our senses or artificial equipment. But why exactly? What is the point? I am not saying that Bitcoin is untouchable or undetectable. I am saying it is nonexistent. Only statements about it exist. Quantity statements in the blockchain written by the Satoshi's software. Why is it so hard for you to differentiate between statement about a thing and the thing itself?

So by your OWN logic.  why exactly?  Whats the point?  Why are you denying reality?  Because at this point you are.    Your clothes might as well not exist by your own non logic.   as I said previously  Philosopher with a bad idea trying to work backwards.   Never works.   Good for a useless document on the wall I am sure though.  

Not my logic. My logic simply differentiate between someone's words about a thing and the thing itself. So, your response makes no sense.

The "statement" on my software does not indicate you have sent me 10 BTC. Please give me the transaction ID so I may verify it. Thank you.

OP thinks it's that easy to just declare you haave a bitcoin as if you are writing a cheque for yourself. Also, why does OP thinks that it's all lies? Did OP got scammed by someone out of his/her bitcoin, that's why OP is spreading this kind of stupid FUD.

You declare it after POW. But that what is declared to exist is still nonexistent. Things don't come into existence via declarations.

[Nhazwrath]

im not going to requote its getting long.


Does zero exist?      ( 0 )..   ?  Does it exist when I write it?  Does it exist if I only think about it?  Does it exist if I don't think or write about it?

As a representation of nothing or lack of something. How does this work, if I write 10? 

I mean I wrote 0  but I can't have written 0 if it means nothing at all?

2 things that cant exist but clearly we can think about them  0 and Infinities.  and my favorite bit of silliness  Infinity plus 1  how can you have an infinity if I can simply add to the statement +1 ? is it wrong? maybe ,But real, it is.   How can it be not real if I can say it? or write it?  It might be WRONG

Bitcoin is a Human imposition on the non existence of something.  therefore it becomes real because we said so.  having you say it say the opposite does not negate the fact that it IS because you thought about it.  By thinking about it, it becomes real    have fun !

[Antithesis]

im not going to requote its getting long.


Does zero exist?      ( 0 )..   ?  Does it exist when I write it?  Does it exist if I only think about it?  Does it exist if I don't think or write about it?

As a representation of nothing or lack of something. How does this work, if I write 10?  

I mean I wrote 0  but I can't have written 0 if it means nothing at all?

2 things that cant exist but clearly we can think about them  0 and Infinities.  and my favorite bit of silliness  Infinity plus 1  how can you have an infinity if I can simply add to the statement +1 ? is it wrong? maybe ,But real, it is.   How can it be not real if I can say it? or write it?  It might be WRONG

Bitcoin is a Human imposition on the non existence of something.  therefore it becomes real because we said so.  having you say it say the opposite does not negate the fact that it IS because you thought about it.  By thinking about it, it becomes real    have fun !

Zero exists as a concept in the human mind for no quantity that you can represent with a symbol, "0", for example.

Bitcoin exists as a concept in the human mind that is represented with symbols "BTC", and whose quantity is written in the blockchain. In the same way, in my mind I can create the concept of a thousand Donald Trumps and represent it with symbols "DTR", and "1,000" in some database. Then, we can buy and sell Donald Trump.

[Dabs]

Right. I can just send you Satoshi's words on it. Satoshi said via his software that BTC exists, and you all blindly believe him that it does by exchanging his words in a digital form.

Right, I'll believe you when you can show me the transaction ID on the software, not here on this forum. That kind of "declaration" would be enough for me if I can view in a block explorer or the wallet software that it has declared some blocks or confirmation.

Otherwise, I don't believe you, you have not sent me any BTC.

If you'd like, send me a PM and I can give you an address not in my profile and I will confirm if you send any BTC to that address.

[Antithesis]

Right. I can just send you Satoshi's words on it. Satoshi said via his software that BTC exists, and you all blindly believe him that it does by exchanging his words in a digital form.

Right, I'll believe you when you can show me the transaction ID on the software, not here on this forum. That kind of "declaration" would be enough for me if I can view in a block explorer or the wallet software that it has declared some blocks or confirmation.

Otherwise, I don't believe you, you have not sent me any BTC.

If you'd like, send me a PM and I can give you an address not in my profile and I will confirm if you send any BTC to that address.

As I said already, it is impossible for me to sent you BTC. It is impossible also for Satoshi. That's why he, that is, his software, only sends statements about BTC. Like I did above for Donald Trump. Stop beating a dead horse and simply accept the fact that there is no such thing as Bitcoin.

[Dabs]

Ok. I'll accept the fact you can't send me BTC. It does not exist for you. That's fine with me. Have a nice day.

[Nhazwrath]

But you won't risk somebody buying you coffee with it?  And by the way admitting that zero is a human concept you have to admit that Bitcoin is a human concept.  And we find zero quite useful don't we? Pretty good for something that's a representative of nothing!

We can make 0 and Bitcoin equals.  Since they are both representations of nothing.  According to you.

[MrPB3N]

I can't believe people actually think about bitcoin like this  as if they are so smart that they realize that a bitcoin can't be physically held. I don't think this person would think this way about gravity or physics or love or brand value or other "intangible" things. Whether something is "real" or not is just all perspective. By this logic the US dollar is certainly not real either. Probably even less real than bitcoin.

[Antithesis]

Ok. I'll accept the fact you can't send me BTC. It does not exist for you. That's fine with me. Have a nice day.

Nobody is able to send you BTC. Only symbols for it. BTC exists only in imagination, only in the human mind. Everything else traded in the market exists outside of the human mind (equity, debt, labor, services, cars, buildings, land, etc.). Given that Bitcoin exists only in imagination everyone defines it differently. Some even view it as a shiny coin which is why they create pictures of it.

But you won't risk somebody buying you coffee with it?  And by the way admitting that zero is a human concept you have to admit that Bitcoin is a human concept.  And we find zero quite useful don't we? Pretty good for something that's a representative of nothing!

We can make 0 and Bitcoin equals.  Since they are both representations of nothing.  According to you.

No, they are both concepts. They don't actually exist in reality outside of the human mind. And both concepts can be represented with symbols: "zero", "0", "bitcoin",  "btc".

I can't believe people actually think about bitcoin like this   as if they are so smart that they realize that a bitcoin can't be physically held. I don't think this person would think this way about gravity or physics or love or brand value or other "intangible" things. Whether something is "real" or not is just all perspective. By this logic the US dollar is certainly not real either. Probably even less real than bitcoin.

Debt also can't be physically held. But it exists outside of human mind. US dollar is debt. This debt is represented with symbols "USD", and numbers. Debt is real. It is explained in the OP how it is created and how it is paid.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Debt also can't be physically held. But it exists outside of human mind. US dollar is debt. This debt is represented with symbols "USD", and numbers. Debt is real. It is explained in the OP how it is created and how it is paid.

What you don't want to understand is that debt can be represented to anything people agree upon and not just to what the government forces them to.

[Dabs]

I still don't see a transaction id or hash. So, yes, no "symbols" have been sent. I know I should stop feeding the troll, but ... oh well.

BTC exists only in imagination, only in the human mind.

Make up your mind. It does not exist. Now it exists.

[iTradeChips]

Your post is too long it makes people not interested what you're saying in it. And because it is also something against Bitcoin and its revered inventor, the more reason people won't bother going through all those long lines.

But to respond to your title, your point is subjective. It does not exist as in you cannot touch it, but it does exist in my wallet because I can see the numbers there. And I own it. It is there. I could convert them to fiat anytime and buy something tangible out of it or I could just use it to directly buy stuff.

It is actually impressive that the OP gave an intelligent discussion about Bitcoin but also against Bitcoin. At least he is not others who just throw shit at something and worse, make unintelligible statements about cryptocurrency in general, not just Bitcoin. Not well researched or read also does not give time to read the arguments of others and just simply talk shit about it. He made some points and that is good. If that is his belief then let him be, we are all entitled to our own opinions.

[pinggoki]

How it becomes intelligent? I've read the context of this post and I found it not interesting anymore and just like what others say, this thread is quite too long to read especially for that person who is too lazy to read that kind of long explanation. Just get it to the point on what you are pointing about and make it more clear next time. Bitcoin is not created just for nothing, Satoshi Nakamoto is a great person and a smart person because just imagine that he creates bitcoin and look what is the value of bitcoin today, he is clearly making a successful outcome out of it.

[ropyu1978]

you say bitcoin doesn't exist, bitcoin is just a theory and satoshi tricked us with his theory, if you say so, i think you are the same as elon musk, maybe you are a crypto whale, who wants to scare weak hands, so you can take a lot of profit and can buy a lot of bitcoins. Enough is enough, don't post negative things about bitcoin anymore..

[Nhazwrath]

Ok. I'll accept the fact you can't send me BTC. It does not exist for you. That's fine with me. Have a nice day.

Nobody is able to send you BTC. Only symbols for it. BTC exists only in imagination, only in the human mind. Everything else traded in the market exists outside of the human mind (equity, debt, labor, services, cars, buildings, land, etc.). Given that Bitcoin exists only in imagination everyone defines it differently. Some even view it as a shiny coin which is why they create pictures of it.

But you won't risk somebody buying you coffee with it?  And by the way admitting that zero is a human concept you have to admit that Bitcoin is a human concept.  And we find zero quite useful don't we? Pretty good for something that's a representative of nothing!

We can make 0 and Bitcoin equals.  Since they are both representations of nothing.  According to you.

No, they are both concepts. They don't actually exist in reality outside of the human mind. And both concepts can be represented with symbols: "zero", "0", "bitcoin",  "btc".

I can't believe people actually think about bitcoin like this   as if they are so smart that they realize that a bitcoin can't be physically held. I don't think this person would think this way about gravity or physics or love or brand value or other "intangible" things. Whether something is "real" or not is just all perspective. By this logic the US dollar is certainly not real either. Probably even less real than bitcoin.

Debt also can't be physically held. But it exists outside of human mind. US dollar is debt. This debt is represented with symbols "USD", and numbers. Debt is real. It is explained in the OP how it is created and how it is paid.

You claim BTC does not exist.   But you also acknowledge that Zero Doesn't exist. 

Since Zero and BTC are Both non existent how can we even think about such things if they do not exist?  You/We clearly do think that Zero not only exists but has great value.  You can apply the exact same logic to BTC.  You cannot get around this argument since you have already said zero doesn't exist either.

These statement have equal value.  since neither exists. 

Are we having fun yet?

[CryptoStar19]

As mentioned above by my fellow forum member, Bitcoin has a production cost. We can't simply add random numbers to our wallets. So how come it is created out of thin air. If it is created out of thin air, shouldn't we all become a billionaire by now?

Bitcoin's production cost is pretty significant and an average Joe can't mine bitcoin just with one laptop. It requires ASICs and electricity. Moreover it has a fixed supply unlike fiat. Fiats can be printed if a government wishes to print. Check facts before bashing bitcoin.

What has costs is not the production of Bitcoin, but storing and maintaining fake quantity data in the blockchain. Those processes don't produce something. They only spend that what is already produced, which is electricity. Adding numbers to blockchain is just adding statements about quantity of fictional Bitcoins - which is a trivial, algorithmically predetermined task.

By your argument all the transistors in any microchip turning on and off to produce computer logic also doesn't 'produce' anything and only consumes electricity... does this make all the software in the world, including Facebook, Google, etc. non existent?

Furthermore, Bitcoin doesn't need to produce anything in order to be valuable... it just needs to represent value, and the agreement on how valuable that representation is has grown exponentially since its inception.

[_Miracle]

This post does not exist, on a website that isn't here, across hardline networks transmitting into thin air.

[UKprod]

In the blockchain you have Satoshi's statements on nonexistent Bitcoins.

So, what's your point exactly?

My point is that you're missing out the fact that a person has to mine to earn a Bitcoin - a number that signifies the efforts that are put in by the miner to mine the cryptocurrency. The more the one mines bitcoin, the more the one is bound to receive Bitcoin - which acts as a Proof of work. You could consider a Bitcoin as credit to a person for certifying a set of transactions within the blockchain. Once the person earns that credit, the person can then transfer such credit to any other person for a monetary value. So Bitcoin becomes a transferrable credit for having worked on the blockchain.

Just like the "services" of an entertainer are intangible, this "credit for working" is also intangible. Just because something is intangible and you do not perceive value, does not actually make it non-existent and worthless. There are others who will pay for "credit for working".

Further, given that Bitcoin facilitates P2P transfers, it is considered as a currency of the future. Should everyone accept it, your argument of it is just a number wont hold good. Also, you need to consider that Bitcoin is not a fiat, it has value only because of people accepting it because of its features such as immutability. Just because you find Bitcoins to be non-existent, you wont be able to delete someone's bitcoins.

[UKprod]

2. Stocks that are sold on earlier in a day on intra-day trading are fake - because the seller never possessed the stock to begin with.

It's not per my logic. This is per my logic:

2. Stocks are statements about companies. Companies exist.

My statement was specific to sellers who engage in intraday trading and sell a stock that they don't even possess. Even if the company exists and the stock exists, the seller would not have the stock at the moment of selling the stock. But still it is considered as valid? Why? Because it is an acceptable practice.

Similarly, Bitcoin is creating a new practice that tends to give value to "credits for verifying transactions".