Bitcoin Forum

This is efialtis,

I just received an email about a post of mine having been deleted - after logging in, I see that I have received a 60 days ban for posting an exclusive offer in my very own BTCGOSU thread.

I have/had no idea that something like I posted was against the rules, even less so in my own thread (I didn`t post it in giveaways section for that very reason, being USDT and no Bitcoin) - so what should have been done?!

Now tell me, how does this deserve a 60 days ban? 60 days??? When this place (the forum) is full of shitposters, everywhere? This is unreal... unbelievable actually how honest members of this forum are f***** - congrats mods! Medal deserved!

https://i.imgur.com/FJTsLkK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/iABbWBY.jpg

Profile link efialtis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=2597426

You cannot offer incentives for users to make insubstantial posts in exchange for altcoins, aka host on-forum altcoin giveaways. Please see Giveaway threads are not allowed (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=434310.0):

So if I wrote "send me an email" instead - which I usually do - that would be fine? I am getting the point but seriously, some sort of reviewing the individual case instead of generic action would make sense, no? Oh, there was not a single response to this post btw... lol

Yes, asking users to send you an email (or more commonly, to send a PM, or fill out a google survey) would be fine. The rule is against having users create low-effort posts in exchange for altcoins.

I do see that you have hosted a number of bitcoin-based giveaways and bounties for your website in the past looking at the history of the threads you have created. Assuming you have not been banned for similar transgressions in the past, one might argue that 60 days is a bit harsh.  

mprep (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=51173) is most likely the mod that banned you. You can send him a PM asking him if he is willing to reduce the duration of your ban, and that you promise to not host an on-forum altcoin giveaway in the future, and he may or may not be willing to do so. If you did legitimately did not know this was against the rules, you can tell him you were unaware of the rule, and that you now know this is not allowed. In my experience, he is both professional and fair.

That's on you--you've been around long enough that you should have read the rules by now.  Aside from that, what section did you post that in?  It doesn't say in the screenshot you linked to.

You're right, there are indeed shitposters everywhere, but the offer you posted encouraged them to keep bumping your thread to the top of whatever section you put it in, with zero-value posts.  But that's why I asked what section the thread was in.  It's still against the rules, but if you had it in a garbage section (like altcoin bounties or Games and Rounds, etc.) it probably wouldn't have had much impact on forum quality anyway.

In any case, the 60 day ban is fair.  I've seen other members get the same punishment (or it could have been 30 days) for doing exactly what you did--but again, it's in the rules, so there's really no reason for you to be upset about the consequences.

I don't think this is a valid ban because you are not paying users directly to post on your thread. Giving coins to users on your own site or any third-party website doesn't qualify as incentivized posting, as far as I understand.

From my understanding, a ban should be issued if the user is asked to post their altcoin address on the forum and paid within that, if you are paying the user off-forum then it should never qualify as incentivized posting.

I repeat, no user was asked to post their USDT address on the forum, hence according to my limited understanding of the forum, it shouldn't deserve a ban, let alone 2 months.

Most of the threads in the Games & Rounds section have mentioned prizes in USD so do they all deserve a ban? I don't think so :)

Given all the good he has done to the forum and gambling community, I hope he gets unbanned.

I issued the ban. People who incentivize posting in a thread in exchange for altcoins usually get suspended for 30 days. Since this is your 2nd time being banned (3rd time if we were to count the ban that was ended early; I don't but just adding in this info for completion's sake), the duration is doubled (as with most consecutive bans being issued). Posting the giveaway outside the altcoin sections doesn't indemnify you nor should it (IMO) reduce the punishment since you've simply violated yet another rule. From https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0):

---

While in certain cases leniency can be applied, you:

1) Have been on Bitcointalk for over 2 years.
2) Conducted a substantial amount of business deals on Bitcointalk (based on your Trust feedback).
3) Extensively represent a business / commercial entity.
4) Violated several rules while representing said entity.
    4.1) Posted a giveaway that's outside Games and Rounds (Bitcoin giveaways are restricted to Games and Rounds)
    4.2) The giveaway is giving away altcoins in exchange for posting in your thread (violating one of the few zero-tolerance rules on the forum)
    4.3) Posted altcoin content outside the altcoin sections
5) Have already been banned in the past for violating the forum's rules (not counting the ban that was ended early).
6) Have also been banned (though IIRC the ban was ended early) for participating in an on-forum altcoin giveaway (=4.2) that was posted in the main boards (=4.3) (meaning you should be aware of the rule's existence or at least gotten curious as to what the rule is).

Which leads me to a simple conclusion - there is no valid excuse for you to not know the forum's rules or where and how certain type of content should be posted before posting it.

---

If you accepted entries to your giveaway (that doesn't have a requirement to post in one or more threads) via PM or via off-forum means (Google Forms, email, other external websites), yes, that'd be fine.

Oh, man! I'm truly sorry to see this. Considering the value you bring to this community, I am surprised at the severity of your punishment.
In retrospect, it's understandable why theymos introduced the rule. But I also remember him stating somewhere that each case should be reviewed individually, and that a moderator's discretion can be used in certain circumstances. Using sports jargon, I think a yellow card is more appropriate in this case.

EDIT:

As I was unaware of this, I am retracting my previous statement. It appears the OP already had a few yellow cards, so...

You might wanna check, OP indeed asked users to reply to his post with username, therefore breaking "no incentive for posting" rule.

@efialtis this really sucks man, for reputable member like you to get such a long ban over something like this, and I can understand that you are pissed off but honestly it surprises me that you were not aware of that rule. What else to do than suck it up and come back in 2 months.

You do realize that some of your arguments contradict? This is a complete joke, go ahead, instead of reducing the spam and fighting scam, you are wasting energy for something like this.

Edit 1: Nobody was being paid in exchange for posting - you decide you d want to put it this way but one may argue here, even objectively.

Edit 2: Bringing up previous bans, yeah - as unjustified really, which is why one of them was reversed and the other one was also discussed highly with various opinions on how to "interprete" the rules.

I will reconsider my approach towards this forum at the same time.


Yeah, as already mentioned, I did not know that I could not have people contact me regarding a GOSU giveaway in my own thread and for some reason, I dont even know why (one may check the dozens previous ones), this time I didnt write PM me or email me but post here. Never mind...

We need a forum moderator, not a lawyer. Lawyers are good at winning arguments. For the god sake, this is a forum, and we are dumb people (/sarcasm) hanging around. Our sin is that we love this space. When we make a post, we just post it. Only keep the commons in mind that we are not spamming and not harming others.

But this place turns out to be a law enforcement agency where someone makes a small mistake (without being aware*) and they get kicked out very easily. All the blood and sweat means nothing at all at the end.

I don't understand why other mods do not notice such things and keep banning users. It's always you who bring yourself to the spotlight for similar cases.

*Do you think if efialtis knew that he will get banned for this, then he would post such thing? It did not strike his mind (in fact, this does not strike my mind too as a bannable post) the way it struck in your mind, or he would not make such a post. This has nothing to do with his experience and getting banned previously - the altcoin giveaway rule is too complicated to understand, and the interpretation is very different for different users.

Anyway, let's make this place a forum, let's fight against the spammers and scammers to protect the community.

Amazing comment! I can only agree with everything you said...

Efi is around for some time, and I know that he would never break any rule intentionally! He is very ethical! So this little mistake, if we can call it like that, depends on how people interpret the rules, shouldn't be the reason for this 60 days ban!

I believe that Efi would edit that comment if he got any warnings that he is in a "gray area"! And all this looks so gray!

What-about-ism isn't an argument. I handle all kinds of rule offenses every day. Just cause I'm not omniscient and omnipotent doesn't mean I shouldn't enforce clear-cut rule violations when I notice them. Also, if you see contradictions, feel free to point them out.


From the deleted giveaway post:


Seems pretty clear cut to me.


The reversed ban (participating in an on-forum altcoin giveaway) didn't increase the duration of your current one though it should've given you enough info that there's rules against on-forum altcoin giveaways. I don't see any opinions on interpretations of the other ban (which happened prior to the one which got reversed) since I couldn't find any threads regarding it. Feel free to link me the thread though if it wasn't reversed, there's no reason as to why that should count as the ban not existing.

---

efialtis is an experienced member promoting his business on Bitcointalk. The level of professionalism expected of such a user is higher than someone who's just "hanging around".


The ban isn't permanent, this isn't a small mistake nor is this the first time the user has shown ignorance of the forum's rules.


Because when someone disagrees with my decision, I feel the need to explain my position and to hear out theirs. That's why I've started the unnoficial rules thread and why I respond to the extremely wide majority of PMs I receive - I don't want my decisions to seem arbitrary and want to make sure the banned user and the community understand my reasoning, even if they disagree with it. In certain cases, the community's or the banned user's arguments manage to convince me in which case I both reduce or remove the punishment as well adjust how I handle future cases. I've seen numerous ban appeal threads where the mod who issued the ban (whoever they may be) never responded and while I don't blame them, I don't feel like that's how I want to respond to users questioning my decisions (unless it's a really clear cut case and community has already said everything I would've said myself).

When it comes to enforcing rules regarding altcoin giveaways (which is what I assume you're alluding to with "similar cases"), the reason I enforce them more often compared to other mods because, well, I used to (and technically still am) the altcoin board moderator and thus have both seen theymos ban users for running on-forum altcoin giveaways as well as issued many bans for such offenses as well. While I moderate the entire forum, my "expertise" (if you could call it that) is dealing with altcoin-related violations, wherever they may be on the forum. And aside from plagiarism, running an on-forum altcoin giveaway is one of the most harshly punished offenses on the forum due to both how much spam they generate and theymos's hardline stance against them.


Were I to ignore all the users who ran altcoin giveaways and "didn't know" it was prohibited, we might as well strike the "no altcoin giveaways" rule out of the rule book since most people who break the rules do so because they didn't do their due diligence before posting on the boards.

Uh....yeah.  OP didn't mention any of that, of course, which would have made me write a much different post than I did.

What does it matter if one of your bans was "discussed highly"?  Ban appeal threads usually draw a lot of commentary, but that doesn't really mean anything and certainly doesn't help your case.  Also, having prior bans is absolutely justified, as it shows you haven't learned the rules yet.

That's because you haven't read the rules, didn't understand them, and/or missed all the other bans that members got for doing exactly what you did.  You can be bitter about this if you want, but if I were you I'd look inward instead of raging against forum rules or how they're enforced.  Good luck.

Damn it man, this must really suck especially after you had just bumped your various services.  :(

PM me your email address and we can continue conversing there if I have anything else I need to ask you, or in particular any posting you might need to do for your business.

Is this some kind of joke?
If someone is banned on the forum but they can continue posting by other people, what's the point of the ban? Isn’t this ban also something contradictory? Is it allowed to post by other people on behalf of the banned user?
Nothing personal, sad to see efialtis is banned here. AFAIK, he is a great guy and should be respecting the forum rules; I know efialtis as someone who wouldn’t be such a dumb to break the forum rules. Hope mdoerator consider the application and lift the ban.

No, quite the opposite. Efialtis and I have been in contact over website affiliate advice recently and this ban has disrupted our communications, hence why I'm asking him to PM me his email.

And in case you're referring to this:


It is completely allowed, if I remember correctly in an old ban appeal thread, Hhampuz had someone post signature campaign payments while he was temp-banned too.

just in any case if RapTarX is wondering about the thread NotATether's talking about. here is a quote on Hhampuz's ban appeal thread mentioning that he has someone posting on his behalf.

This is a very sneaky old rule. Personally I don't understand what's wrong with running giveaways.

Scamming is allowed and not a ban reason but you cannot run/promote giveaways.

Totally makes sense. \s


What's wrong with promoting your own business? People do that all the time...

But rules are rules... So... 60 days of ban is nothing don't be sad.

edit: I see, the problem is the spam it generates. Kind of makes sense...
edit2: It is summer, use this chance to get yourself a 60 days of vacation  ;D Now you can gladly do your favorite hobby instead of shitposting  ;D

Technically that's ban evasion. Ban appeal thread is the only thing a banned user is allowed to do. No posts elsewhere and no PMs. Granted the latter would likely be enforced only if the recipient reported it and you probably wouldn't, but you're basically telling him to break the rules.


There is no rule against it and it would be largely unenforceable if there was. Ultimately it's the user posting that stuff who's taking full responsibility. Perhaps some precautions (quoting/attribution) should be taken to avoid getting reported for plagiarism when posting text supplied by someone else. Not sure if there are any other issues with that.


It's very much the opposite of sneaky. It's in the list of rules right here in Meta and all sorts of explanations are pinned all over altcoin boards, not to mention the numerous appeals and comments every time this happens. You have to try really hard to remain ignorant of this rule.

Others may argue, what's wrong with scamming other people? People do that all the time ...
But, sadly, as you said, rules are rules, and this is the forum we currently have, so we have no choice but to accept that if we want to be a part of it.

Dude I think you should be grateful it's not a permanent ban and you still have hope of getting your account back after two month and what ever that lead to it must have been lesson for you.

I couldn't believe this would happen to someone as prestigious and experienced as efialtis. It seems this case will not be approved and this appeal will not be valid? 60 days is a long time for someone who regularly works and is active on this forum. It must have caused a lot of problems at work, it's a pity that this happened.

I don't think efialtis was aware that he would receive this ban for making his post  :-\

It so sad to know about efialtis that was banned and I thought OP was aware of that rule of this forum since efialtis was also an experienced member here for how many years.  As I remember correctly, OP got 60 days ban for this offense, and the participants also got 30 days ban if there is.

This was the same case when I was joining webstrick's thread giveaway using altcoin(without knowing me it was a bannable offense), I got 30 days banned and OP was received 60 days banned.  After that, I promised myself I will never join the altcoin giveaway or avoid participating in any giveaways in the Games and Round section, unless if that is offer Bitcoin giveaway.

Sad to say but mods mprep was right and I think efialtis must move on and this just a lesson to learn.

mprep is the moderator of the altcoin section, and as such, he is most likely to issue these kinds of bans. Unless he is going to be away for several days, I would be willing to bet that most other moderators will differ to him when issuing a ban that breaks this particular rule.

mprep made a compelling case as to why he believes it is fair to assume the OP was aware of the rule in question before he posted the giveaway. Assuming the OP still disagrees with the ban and its duration, he can make additional arguments as to why he believes the ban is unjustified. If the OP is unable to change mprep's mind, he can escalate to theymos to see if he is willing to override mprep.

While I do like to support fellow forum members, assuming what mprep has posted is true, I do not see an error on his part. My advice to the OP is to wait out the duration of his ban, learn his lesson and move on.

Technically it is, but I also understand that some people can't just disappear and be unavailable for 60 days. Especially those who run signature campaigns like Hhampuz who got temp banned. Imagine the drama if signature participants stopped getting paid for 30 or 60 days. You might say, he could still pay the participants even if he is banned and he doesn't need his forum account for that. But technically that could also be ban evasion because he keeps conducting the business he normally runs on the forum.

I understand what you are saying. However, if you and I made a deal where am I expecting a payment from you on Monday and you got temp banned today, I would still expect you to find a way around that and tell me how we should proceed. I would certainly do it if it was the other way around because my personal predicament can't be an excuse for breaking an agreement we had.

Oh you do, do you? How cute. And what do your other alter egos think? Will we hear from them as well?

All of this is a complete joke and I have just sent theymos a PM on the matter.

It is so ridiculous that I am not even going to comment on single responses.

Instead, I will say just this: Banning someone (60 days), who is actually doing good to the forum (unlike 95% of the users who just spam and shitpost), protecting users, being opiniated even when the mainstream does not like it... this is a big farce - especially when being banned because of  so called "incentivizing posting" when this whole forum is basically based on incentivized posting (signature campaigns, bounties etc.). Let`s not forget that not a single post resulted out of my incentive...

The moderator has proven that he does a bad job when it comes to actual moderation - a new hobby might be advisable.

Edit: Truth is that I see various threads these days about businesses (supposedly) acting shady/unethically with lots of bullshit commenting and instead of me jumping in and helping, I am just not allowed to. Yeah, that`s a win for this forum and its users, I guess?