60 Days Ban Appeal

[efialtis_banned]

This is efialtis,

I just received an email about a post of mine having been deleted - after logging in, I see that I have received a 60 days ban for posting an exclusive offer in my very own BTCGOSU thread.

I have/had no idea that something like I posted was against the rules, even less so in my own thread (I didn`t post it in giveaways section for that very reason, being USDT and no Bitcoin) - so what should have been done?!

Now tell me, how does this deserve a 60 days ban? 60 days??? When this place (the forum) is full of shitposters, everywhere? This is unreal... unbelievable actually how honest members of this forum are f***** - congrats mods! Medal deserved!

https://i.imgur.com/FJTsLkK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/iABbWBY.jpg

Profile link efialtis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=2597426

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[PrimeNumber7]

You cannot offer incentives for users to make insubstantial posts in exchange for altcoins, aka host on-forum altcoin giveaways. Please see Giveaway threads are not allowed:

Most giveaway threads are no longer allowed in the Alternate cryptocurrencies sections. From now on, posting or replying to such threads could result in being banned. Existing threads will be locked.

Specifically, you are not allowed to give people any incentive to post insubstantial posts in your threads. You can't offer to pay people who post their addresses, usernames, etc. You can do giveaways off-site and link to the giveaway page in a thread, but you can't give people any bonus for replying to your thread.

Similar threads are already restricted to Games and Rounds in the non-altcoin sections, but the giveaway-related post volume is so high in the altcoin sections that I've decided to just ban them entirely here.

[efialtis_banned]

You cannot offer incentives for users to make insubstantial posts in exchange for altcoins, aka host on-forum altcoin giveaways.

So if I wrote "send me an email" instead - which I usually do - that would be fine? I am getting the point but seriously, some sort of reviewing the individual case instead of generic action would make sense, no? Oh, there was not a single response to this post btw... lol

A topic where you ask people to guess the price and give their reasoning would not be incentivized posting warranting movement to Games & Rounds. But because there is a prize, it is incentivized posting and should be moved to Games & Rounds according to the rules-as-written.

However: Almost all rules are subject to mod discretion. The reason for the rule against games with incentivized posting outside of "Games & Rounds" is to prevent unfair/excessive bumping and "last-posts"-filling except in "quarantine" sections which people can ignore.  In El duderino_'s games:
 - El duderino has no incentive to cause spammy replies. The prize is a true gift.
 - The game has a pretty high entry requirement which prevents the replies from actually becoming spammy.
 - El duderino_ very much prefers that the games be in Speculation rather than Games & Rounds.

Therefore, it's most appropriate in this case to apply mod discretion and make an exception to the rules as written; El duderino_'s future games of this sort can stay in Speculation.

[PrimeNumber7]

Yes, asking users to send you an email (or more commonly, to send a PM, or fill out a google survey) would be fine. The rule is against having users create low-effort posts in exchange for altcoins.

I do see that you have hosted a number of bitcoin-based giveaways and bounties for your website in the past looking at the history of the threads you have created. Assuming you have not been banned for similar transgressions in the past, one might argue that 60 days is a bit harsh.  

mprep is most likely the mod that banned you. You can send him a PM asking him if he is willing to reduce the duration of your ban, and that you promise to not host an on-forum altcoin giveaway in the future, and he may or may not be willing to do so. If you did legitimately did not know this was against the rules, you can tell him you were unaware of the rule, and that you now know this is not allowed. In my experience, he is both professional and fair.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I have/had no idea that something like I posted was against the rules, even less so in my own thread

That's on you--you've been around long enough that you should have read the rules by now.  Aside from that, what section did you post that in?  It doesn't say in the screenshot you linked to.

Now tell me, how does this deserve a 60 days ban? 60 days? When this place (the forum) is all over shitposters, everywhere? This is unreal... unbelievable actually how honest members of this forum are f***** - congrats mods!

You're right, there are indeed shitposters everywhere, but the offer you posted encouraged them to keep bumping your thread to the top of whatever section you put it in, with zero-value posts.  But that's why I asked what section the thread was in.  It's still against the rules, but if you had it in a garbage section (like altcoin bounties or Games and Rounds, etc.) it probably wouldn't have had much impact on forum quality anyway.

In any case, the 60 day ban is fair.  I've seen other members get the same punishment (or it could have been 30 days) for doing exactly what you did--but again, it's in the rules, so there's really no reason for you to be upset about the consequences.

[Baskin198]

I don't think this is a valid ban because you are not paying users directly to post on your thread. Giving coins to users on your own site or any third-party website doesn't qualify as incentivized posting, as far as I understand.

From my understanding, a ban should be issued if the user is asked to post their altcoin address on the forum and paid within that, if you are paying the user off-forum then it should never qualify as incentivized posting.

I repeat, no user was asked to post their USDT address on the forum, hence according to my limited understanding of the forum, it shouldn't deserve a ban, let alone 2 months.

Most of the threads in the Games & Rounds section have mentioned prizes in USD so do they all deserve a ban? I don't think so

Given all the good he has done to the forum and gambling community, I hope he gets unbanned.

[mprep]

I issued the ban. People who incentivize posting in a thread in exchange for altcoins usually get suspended for 30 days. Since this is your 2nd time being banned (3rd time if we were to count the ban that was ended early; I don't but just adding in this info for completion's sake), the duration is doubled (as with most consecutive bans being issued). Posting the giveaway outside the altcoin sections doesn't indemnify you nor should it (IMO) reduce the punishment since you've simply violated yet another rule. From https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0:

2. No off-topic posts.

<...>

14. All altcoin related discussion belong in the Alternate cryptocurrencies and its child boards.

15. No on-forum altcoin giveaways.

<...>

I have/had no idea that something like I posted was against the rules, even less so in my own thread (I didn`t post it in giveaways section for that very reason, being USDT and no Bitcoin) - so what should have been done?!

While in certain cases leniency can be applied, you:

1) Have been on Bitcointalk for over 2 years.
2) Conducted a substantial amount of business deals on Bitcointalk (based on your Trust feedback).
3) Extensively represent a business / commercial entity.
4) Violated several rules while representing said entity.
    4.1) Posted a giveaway that's outside Games and Rounds (Bitcoin giveaways are restricted to Games and Rounds)
    4.2) The giveaway is giving away altcoins in exchange for posting in your thread (violating one of the few zero-tolerance rules on the forum)
    4.3) Posted altcoin content outside the altcoin sections
5) Have already been banned in the past for violating the forum's rules (not counting the ban that was ended early).
6) Have also been banned (though IIRC the ban was ended early) for participating in an on-forum altcoin giveaway (=4.2) that was posted in the main boards (=4.3) (meaning you should be aware of the rule's existence or at least gotten curious as to what the rule is).

Which leads me to a simple conclusion - there is no valid excuse for you to not know the forum's rules or where and how certain type of content should be posted before posting it.

So if I wrote "send me an email" instead - which I usually do - that would be fine? I am getting the point but seriously, some sort of reviewing the individual case instead of generic action would make sense, no? Oh, there was not a single response to this post btw... lol

If you accepted entries to your giveaway (that doesn't have a requirement to post in one or more threads) via PM or via off-forum means (Google Forms, email, other external websites), yes, that'd be fine.

[Stalker22]

Oh, man! I'm truly sorry to see this. Considering the value you bring to this community, I am surprised at the severity of your punishment.
In retrospect, it's understandable why theymos introduced the rule. But I also remember him stating somewhere that each case should be reviewed individually, and that a moderator's discretion can be used in certain circumstances. Using sports jargon, I think a yellow card is more appropriate in this case.

EDIT:

Since this is your 2nd time being banned (3rd time if we were to count the ban that was ended early; I don't but just adding in this info for completion's sake), the duration is doubled (as with most consecutive bans being issued).
/cut/

As I was unaware of this, I am retracting my previous statement. It appears the OP already had a few yellow cards, so...

[Rikafip]

I don't think this is a valid ban because you are not paying users directly to post on your thread. Giving coins to users on your own site or any third-party website doesn't qualify as incentivized posting, as far as I understand.

You might wanna check, OP indeed asked users to reply to his post with username, therefore breaking "no incentive for posting" rule.

@efialtis this really sucks man, for reputable member like you to get such a long ban over something like this, and I can understand that you are pissed off but honestly it surprises me that you were not aware of that rule. What else to do than suck it up and come back in 2 months.

[efialtis_banned]

I issued the ban. People who incentivize posting in a thread in exchange for altcoins usually get suspended for 30 days. Since this is your 2nd time being banned (3rd time if we were to count the ban that was ended early; I don't but just adding in this info for completion's sake), the duration is doubled (as with most consecutive bans being issued). Posting the giveaway outside the altcoin sections doesn't indemnify you nor should it (IMO) reduce the punishment since you've simply violated yet another rule. From https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0:

2. No off-topic posts.

<...>

14. All altcoin related discussion belong in the Alternate cryptocurrencies and its child boards.

15. No on-forum altcoin giveaways.

<...>

I have/had no idea that something like I posted was against the rules, even less so in my own thread (I didn`t post it in giveaways section for that very reason, being USDT and no Bitcoin) - so what should have been done?!

While in certain cases leniency can be applied, you:

1) Have been on Bitcointalk for over 2 years.
2) Conducted a substantial amount of business deals on Bitcointalk (based on your Trust feedback).
3) Extensively represent a business / commercial entity.
4) Violated several rules while representing said entity.
    4.1) Posted a giveaway that's outside Games and Rounds (Bitcoin giveaways are restricted to Games and Rounds)
    4.2) The giveaway is giving away altcoins in exchange for posting in your thread (violating one of the few zero-tolerance rules on the forum)
    4.3) Posted altcoin content outside the altcoin sections
5) Have already been banned in the past for violating the forum's rules (not counting the ban that was ended early).
6) Have also been banned (though IIRC the ban was ended early) for participating in an on-forum altcoin giveaway (=4.2) that was posted in the main boards (=4.3) (meaning you should be aware of the rule's existence or at least gotten curious as to what the rule is).

Which leads me to a simple conclusion - there is no valid excuse for you to not know the forum's rules or where and how certain type of content should be posted before posting it.

So if I wrote "send me an email" instead - which I usually do - that would be fine? I am getting the point but seriously, some sort of reviewing the individual case instead of generic action would make sense, no? Oh, there was not a single response to this post btw... lol

If you accepted entries to your giveaway (that doesn't have a requirement to post in one or more threads) via PM or via off-forum means (Google Forms, email, other external websites), yes, that'd be fine.

You do realize that some of your arguments contradict? This is a complete joke, go ahead, instead of reducing the spam and fighting scam, you are wasting energy for something like this.

Edit 1: Nobody was being paid in exchange for posting - you decide you d want to put it this way but one may argue here, even objectively.

Edit 2: Bringing up previous bans, yeah - as unjustified really, which is why one of them was reversed and the other one was also discussed highly with various opinions on how to "interprete" the rules.

I will reconsider my approach towards this forum at the same time.

I don't think this is a valid ban because you are not paying users directly to post on your thread. Giving coins to users on your own site or any third-party website doesn't qualify as incentivized posting, as far as I understand.

You might wanna check, OP indeed asked users to reply to his post with username, therefore breaking "no incentive for posting" rule.

@efialtis this really sucks man, for reputable member like you to get such a long ban over something like this, and I can understand that you are pissed off but honestly it surprises me that you were not aware of that rule. What else to do than suck it up and come back in 2 months.

Yeah, as already mentioned, I did not know that I could not have people contact me regarding a GOSU giveaway in my own thread and for some reason, I dont even know why (one may check the dozens previous ones), this time I didnt write PM me or email me but post here. Never mind...

[AB de Royse777]

I issued the ban.

We need a forum moderator, not a lawyer. Lawyers are good at winning arguments. For the god sake, this is a forum, and we are dumb people (/sarcasm) hanging around. Our sin is that we love this space. When we make a post, we just post it. Only keep the commons in mind that we are not spamming and not harming others.

But this place turns out to be a law enforcement agency where someone makes a small mistake (without being aware*) and they get kicked out very easily. All the blood and sweat means nothing at all at the end.

I don't understand why other mods do not notice such things and keep banning users. It's always you who bring yourself to the spotlight for similar cases.

*Do you think if efialtis knew that he will get banned for this, then he would post such thing? It did not strike his mind (in fact, this does not strike my mind too as a bannable post) the way it struck in your mind, or he would not make such a post. This has nothing to do with his experience and getting banned previously - the altcoin giveaway rule is too complicated to understand, and the interpretation is very different for different users.

Anyway, let's make this place a forum, let's fight against the spammers and scammers to protect the community.

[iv4n]

...

We need a forum moderator, not a lawyer. Lawyers are good at winning arguments. For the god sake, this is a forum, and we are dumb people (/sarcasm) hanging around. Our sin is that we love this space. When we make a post, we just post it. Only keep the commons in mind that we are not spamming and not harming others.

But this place turns out to be a law enforcement agency where someone makes a small mistake (without being aware*) and they get kicked out very easily. All the blood and sweat means nothing at all at the end.

I don't understand why other mods do not notice such things and keep banning users. It's always you who bring yourself to the spotlight for similar cases.

*Do you think if efialtis knew that he will get banned for this, then he would post such thing? It did not strike his mind (in fact, this does not strike my mind too as a bannable post) the way it struck in your mind, or he would not make such a post. This has nothing to do with his experience and getting banned previously - the altcoin giveaway rule is too complicated to understand, and the interpretation is very different for different users.

Anyway, let's make this place a forum, let's fight against the spammers and scammers to protect the community.

Amazing comment! I can only agree with everything you said...

Efi is around for some time, and I know that he would never break any rule intentionally! He is very ethical! So this little mistake, if we can call it like that, depends on how people interpret the rules, shouldn't be the reason for this 60 days ban!

I believe that Efi would edit that comment if he got any warnings that he is in a "gray area"! And all this looks so gray!

[mprep]

You do realize that some of your arguments contradict? This is a complete joke, go ahead, instead of reducing the spam and fighting scam, you are wasting energy for something like this.

What-about-ism isn't an argument. I handle all kinds of rule offenses every day. Just cause I'm not omniscient and omnipotent doesn't mean I shouldn't enforce clear-cut rule violations when I notice them. Also, if you see contradictions, feel free to point them out.

Edit 1: Nobody was being paid in exchange for posting - you decide you d want to put it this way but one may argue here, even objectively.

From the deleted giveaway post:

Get 10 USDT - no deposit needed!
<...>
2. Reply to this post with your BC.GAME username in this thread
3. You will receive a 10 USDT shitlink once verified you are tracked correctly

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

Edit 2: Bringing up previous bans, yeah - as unjustified really, which is why one of them was reversed and the other one was also discussed highly with various opinions on how to "interprete" the rules.

The reversed ban (participating in an on-forum altcoin giveaway) didn't increase the duration of your current one though it should've given you enough info that there's rules against on-forum altcoin giveaways. I don't see any opinions on interpretations of the other ban (which happened prior to the one which got reversed) since I couldn't find any threads regarding it. Feel free to link me the thread though if it wasn't reversed, there's no reason as to why that should count as the ban not existing.

We need a forum moderator, not a lawyer. Lawyers are good at winning arguments. For the god sake, this is a forum, and we are dumb people (/sarcasm) hanging around. Our sin is that we love this space. When we make a post, we just post it. Only keep the commons in mind that we are not spamming and not harming others.

efialtis is an experienced member promoting his business on Bitcointalk. The level of professionalism expected of such a user is higher than someone who's just "hanging around".

But this place turns out to be a law enforcement agency where someone makes a small mistake (without being aware*) and they get kicked out very easily. All the blood and sweat means nothing at all at the end.

The ban isn't permanent, this isn't a small mistake nor is this the first time the user has shown ignorance of the forum's rules.

I don't understand why other mods do not notice such things and keep banning users. It's always you who bring yourself to the spotlight for similar cases.

Because when someone disagrees with my decision, I feel the need to explain my position and to hear out theirs. That's why I've started the unnoficial rules thread and why I respond to the extremely wide majority of PMs I receive - I don't want my decisions to seem arbitrary and want to make sure the banned user and the community understand my reasoning, even if they disagree with it. In certain cases, the community's or the banned user's arguments manage to convince me in which case I both reduce or remove the punishment as well adjust how I handle future cases. I've seen numerous ban appeal threads where the mod who issued the ban (whoever they may be) never responded and while I don't blame them, I don't feel like that's how I want to respond to users questioning my decisions (unless it's a really clear cut case and community has already said everything I would've said myself).

When it comes to enforcing rules regarding altcoin giveaways (which is what I assume you're alluding to with "similar cases"), the reason I enforce them more often compared to other mods because, well, I used to (and technically still am) the altcoin board moderator and thus have both seen theymos ban users for running on-forum altcoin giveaways as well as issued many bans for such offenses as well. While I moderate the entire forum, my "expertise" (if you could call it that) is dealing with altcoin-related violations, wherever they may be on the forum. And aside from plagiarism, running an on-forum altcoin giveaway is one of the most harshly punished offenses on the forum due to both how much spam they generate and theymos's hardline stance against them.

*Do you think if efialtis knew that he will get banned for this, then he would post such thing? It did not strike his mind (in fact, this does not strike my mind too as a bannable post) the way it struck in your mind, or he would not make such a post. This has nothing to do with his experience and getting banned previously - the altcoin giveaway rule is too complicated to understand, and the interpretation is very different for different users.

Were I to ignore all the users who ran altcoin giveaways and "didn't know" it was prohibited, we might as well strike the "no altcoin giveaways" rule out of the rule book since most people who break the rules do so because they didn't do their due diligence before posting on the boards.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

As I was unaware of this, I am retracting my previous statement. It appears the OP already had a few yellow cards, so...

Uh....yeah.  OP didn't mention any of that, of course, which would have made me write a much different post than I did.

Edit 2: Bringing up previous bans, yeah - as unjustified really, which is why one of them was reversed and the other one was also discussed highly with various opinions on how to "interprete" the rules.

What does it matter if one of your bans was "discussed highly"?  Ban appeal threads usually draw a lot of commentary, but that doesn't really mean anything and certainly doesn't help your case.  Also, having prior bans is absolutely justified, as it shows you haven't learned the rules yet.

Yeah, as already mentioned, I did not know that I could not have people contact me regarding a GOSU giveaway in my own thread

That's because you haven't read the rules, didn't understand them, and/or missed all the other bans that members got for doing exactly what you did.  You can be bitter about this if you want, but if I were you I'd look inward instead of raging against forum rules or how they're enforced.  Good luck.

[NotATether]

Damn it man, this must really suck especially after you had just bumped your various services.  

PM me your email address and we can continue conversing there if I have anything else I need to ask you, or in particular any posting you might need to do for your business.

[RapTarX]

PM me your email address and we can continue conversing there if I have anything else I need to ask you, or in particular any posting you might need to do for your business.

Is this some kind of joke?
If someone is banned on the forum but they can continue posting by other people, what's the point of the ban? Isn’t this ban also something contradictory? Is it allowed to post by other people on behalf of the banned user?
Nothing personal, sad to see efialtis is banned here. AFAIK, he is a great guy and should be respecting the forum rules; I know efialtis as someone who wouldn’t be such a dumb to break the forum rules. Hope mdoerator consider the application and lift the ban.

[NotATether]

Is this some kind of joke?
If someone is banned on the forum but they can continue posting by other people, what's the point of the ban? Isn’t this ban also something contradictory? Is it allowed to post by other people on behalf of the banned user?

No, quite the opposite. Efialtis and I have been in contact over website affiliate advice recently and this ban has disrupted our communications, hence why I'm asking him to PM me his email.

And in case you're referring to this:

or in particular any posting you might need to do for your business.

It is completely allowed, if I remember correctly in an old ban appeal thread, Hhampuz had someone post signature campaign payments while he was temp-banned too.

[acroman08]

It is completely allowed, if I remember correctly in an old ban appeal thread, Hhampuz had someone post signature campaign payments while he was temp-banned too.

just in any case if RapTarX is wondering about the thread NotATether's talking about. here is a quote on Hhampuz's ban appeal thread mentioning that he has someone posting on his behalf.

No worries on any of my campaigns. Post counts/Payments will be sent out as per usual and I'll just have someone post the txID in the threads for me over the next 7 days.

[mindrust]

This is a very sneaky old rule. Personally I don't understand what's wrong with running giveaways.

Scamming is allowed and not a ban reason but you cannot run/promote giveaways.

Totally makes sense. \s

We need a forum moderator, not a lawyer. Lawyers are good at winning arguments. For the god sake, this is a forum, and we are dumb people (/sarcasm) hanging around. Our sin is that we love this space. When we make a post, we just post it. Only keep the commons in mind that we are not spamming and not harming others.

efialtis is an experienced member promoting his business on Bitcointalk. The level of professionalism expected of such a user is higher than someone who's just "hanging around".

What's wrong with promoting your own business? People do that all the time...

But rules are rules... So... 60 days of ban is nothing don't be sad.

edit: I see, the problem is the spam it generates. Kind of makes sense...
edit2: It is summer, use this chance to get yourself a 60 days of vacation  Now you can gladly do your favorite hobby instead of shitposting 

[suchmoon]

Damn it man, this must really suck especially after you had just bumped your various services.  

PM me your email address and we can continue conversing there if I have anything else I need to ask you, or in particular any posting you might need to do for your business.

Technically that's ban evasion. Ban appeal thread is the only thing a banned user is allowed to do. No posts elsewhere and no PMs. Granted the latter would likely be enforced only if the recipient reported it and you probably wouldn't, but you're basically telling him to break the rules.

If someone is banned on the forum but they can continue posting by other people, what's the point of the ban? Isn’t this ban also something contradictory? Is it allowed to post by other people on behalf of the banned user?

There is no rule against it and it would be largely unenforceable if there was. Ultimately it's the user posting that stuff who's taking full responsibility. Perhaps some precautions (quoting/attribution) should be taken to avoid getting reported for plagiarism when posting text supplied by someone else. Not sure if there are any other issues with that.

This is a very sneaky old rule.

It's very much the opposite of sneaky. It's in the list of rules right here in Meta and all sorts of explanations are pinned all over altcoin boards, not to mention the numerous appeals and comments every time this happens. You have to try really hard to remain ignorant of this rule.