Bitcoin Forum

https://youtu.be/p37Wg6h2PJ4

The linked video explains the difference between traditional financial instruments and bitcoin. Both traditional financial instruments and bitcoin are essentially numbers stored on some media. Either on plastic, paper, metal or digital. However, there's one huge difference between the two. Traditional financial instruments are redeemable by the issuer. Meaning, the issuer withdraws instrument units from the market, and in the process pays the redemption value to the holders. Once the units are withdrawn they ceased to exist. New units are then created again, and the whole process repeats itself. Also, a fixed or expected redemption value is what we use to determine whether a particular market price of an instrument is cheap or expensive.

On the other hand, bitcoin is not redeemable by their issuers. The issuers of bitcoin never withdraw its units from the market in order to pay something to holders, which is why bitcoin has zero redemption value. What that means is two things. First, any price of bitcoin above zero is infinitely expensive (price of bitcoin devided by zero redemption value gives infinity). Second, bitcoin is similar to a losing lottery ticket, to a stock of a bankrupt company, to a currency of a former county or to a casino token of a bankrupt casino. That's because, all mentioned instruments are numbers on some media, but their units are not redeemable by the issuer. Just like the bitcoin units are not.

Not really for sure. I do think there is a lot of definitions that you are ignoring themselves right by now. Lottery tickets are unexpected, sudden, not even as a further as well. Bankrupt casino?? I don't really think it works like this for sure. You have to do research on it for sure.

Redeemable ?
I do not think that might work out the way you would have expected it to, since nothing is non redeemable you have to work hard for it hands down. It's the same for both traditional currencies and cryptocurrencies as well.

Bitcoins are redeemable. I just redeemed some bitcoins for plane tickets.

The fundamental difference between dollars and bitcoins is that bitcoins are scarce and energy must be consumed in order to create them, while it costs nothing to create an infinite number of dollars.

You gave the opinions about some points not related to this topic. Watch the video. I don't know what you are talking about.

That's trading not redeeming. The later is when the issuer of an instrument withdraws it out of circulation and pay redemption value in the process. Watch the video.

Just from your poor grasp of how Bitcoin works, it is definitely not even worth checking out the video. Bitcoin at it's heart is a currency, it is a currency whereby one unit is currently worth around 50,000 dollars when converted via an exchange or peer to peer transaction. You might not like that fact, there may not be much logic behind why so many people put such a high value on this particular currency, but it is the present reality that we live in. Currency is just a store of value. As we see with El Salvador, who have made it legal tender (AKA redeemable) what you have said is untrue and the pace is going against you every day. It feels like you either sold out too early or are just jealous that you missed out on the huge gains it has made since inception.

Maybe for the users who invested long back and cashed it out at the wrong time it seems like a losing lottery ticket. For the present day investors it isn't the right statement, because now people get into the investment with perfect understanding about the market. Earlier everything is made out of some sort belief and on random choice. So, we can't be judgemental on bitcoin as a losing lottery ticket. As of now it is the winning lottery ticket for everyone.

None of the above i shall say.

Bitcoin isnt something a lottery ticket since we arent doing gambling on here on putting at stake to make lots but rather this is mainly focused on p2p payment system which is totally decentralized.

Earning money or profits is just a bonus and this is a wrong main perception of those people who dont know even with the basics on why Bitcoin exist on the first place.

Centralized and decentralize which they are totally different and to those who do support BTC do knows on whats the reason.

Bitcoin does not make everyone rich, but there are people who made a fortune because of bitcoin, well, personally I'm thankful I was able to invest on bitcoin early as it makes me profitable and was able to cash out. For some people who invested and got easily panic, it's the right definition for them, but they cannot blame it on bitcoin but on their actions, lack of knowledge resulted in weak hands.

That's the problem I've had with a lot of people. Bitcoin was originally made to just serve as a store of value and not even as an asset that would yield returns or profit. Rather, it's supposed to just be like a global currency for citizens of the world to use but the volatility has given people different perceptions about it enough for them to forget the original purpose and it's bad. Bitcoin != Lottery.

Cryptocurrency and more especially bitcoin make human being rich base on individual perception and it's strategies to carry on it's primary function's, so to be rich via anything you adventure into is base your plan A and plan B towards the stuff and more especially your engagement, your determination, your decision, everyone is licensed to secure profit in cryptocurrency industry, which can equally i another means called richness.

I thought I had seen it all from bitcoin critics, but you outdone yourself, how can you buy bitcoin with a lottery ticket?

take $1000 buy bitcoin

take $1000 buy lottery

after 3 months see what will be with you that will allow you to take and buy things, I don't understand why people don't accept bitcoin and are making meaningless comparisons. Fiat has its purpose, lottery has its purpose and bitcoin has its purpose, everyone has their roles, there is no need to compare them

Your just comparing it on other side of it maybe you really didn't understand how bitcoin works and what people supposed to be look at it since if you just take it for invest then hoping to earn huge money in quick instance like betting on lottery then you might get it in wrong way, you will lose your bitcoin if you didn't think smart on how you use it and also you are easily affected on certain situation but if you know how to use it well then you have a chance to collect your profits on daily basis with proper strategy regarding on how to defy the volatile market.

The OPs description alone is so absurd, there is no reason to watch the video. Such a description could only come from someone who doesn't know the first thing about Bitcoin. This is the uphill battle of educating the public. Gradually, over many years, people will stop spouting these outrageous lies and actually start to understand a little bit about what Bitcoin is and how it works. At this point every year we've got tens of millions of people at least getting a basic bitcoin education. Eventually the person who said that Bitcoin is a losing lottery ticket will start to learn as well.

Hundreds of thousands of people that won the bitcoin lottery disagree with you. I agree that bitcoin is a lottery ticket but I am not sure if it is the losing lottery ticket, yet. It is simply because it is still going up. If one day btc becomes near worthless, then I would say you were right, but not now.

If you turned your 100 bucks into 200, that's a win no matter how you look at it. It doesn't matter if it was bitcoin, stocks or pet rocks that did it, it was a winning ticket.

This comparison is not accurate, why is Bitcoin a non-redeemable currency? There are a lot of times that even from wallets that lost the private key, bitcoins have been recovered, also it is not difficult to recover bitcoins in case the transaction is canceled, it is not impossible at all. It is quite possible to recover bitcoins while losing some additional fees, of course.
Also, don't forget that banknotes can be non-refundable in addition to being perishable or lost or even food for mice!!!

Totally wrong, as long as we're not put our money on futures exchange, it's far from gamble but it's just a normal investment but with more volatile market.
We won't lose anything if we bought bitcoin but just losing the value if the price is bearishing, so as long we are not sell our bitcoin, we can't be called losing instead of just have to hold longer. This will happen on all stocks investment. So this is normal, people who play futures and got liquidated is close to gambling.

Man watching the beginning of the video where it compared winning tickets to fiat/dollar, and losing tickets to Bitcoin, I already knew it was a rather stupid argument. In the first place, it was a wrong convention to have the idea of generating profits from Bitcoin as its original purpose, since it is a currency at its core. Its increasing value is simply attributed to the supply and demand since it has a limited supply and growing demand, unlike dollar which has pretty much an infinite supply (albeit controlled).

Didn't click on the link.

Whatever redeemable may mean to you and whether or not Bitcoin is redeemable according to such definition, I don't care much. The point is that Bitcoin is not a failure simply for being different from the traditional. Bitcoin's main point is that it is opposite to the traditional.

If Bitcoin is a losing lottery ticket, I'd be collecting as many as I can. If it's a stock of a bankrupt company, I'd be buying as much as I can.

This topic has nothing to do with how Bitcoin works. Instead, it simply states two facts. First, the number that your wallet application reads from the digital media is non-redeemable. Second, numbers on losing lottery tickets are also non-redeemable. The same as numbers on paper stock or bond certificates of bankrupt companies and corporations. The same as numbers on metal/paper coins/banknotes of former countries. And the same as numbers on plastic tokens of bankrupt casinos. Which makes your bitcoins equivalent to the said things. It also states that paying $50K or even a dime for bitcoin is silly. That's all what this topic is about.

When someone states the fact that a particular car is engineless, it's pretty ridiculous to respond by saying: "you don't know how car works".

This topic is not about people and how much money they made.

Some people are still resisting to accept the reality that bitcoin is a medium of exchange, aka a currency.
I am sitting at home and are purchasing anything online of offline locally or from the other side of the world without needing any middleman, now if you want to call it whatever else including "lottery ticket" that doesn't change what bitcoin really is. I like to call US dollar "toilet paper" and wipe my ass with it but that doesn't change the real purpose of it!

Explanation is too complicated. Basically the borrower has to pay back to the bank (and that can't be interpreted as withdrawing from the market) because that is an obligation in the agreement and has guaranteed other valuables (property assets).

The bank is just a third party for which you say fiat is redeemable. Nowadays there are many third party bitcoin lending services and they can also redeem your bitcoins. Banks are also the first medium to circulate money to the public where miners play this role (through p2p or the central exchange).

I'm not going to waste my time watching a FUD video.
What do you mean by "redeemable"?You can sell BTC for fiat money.This makes BTC redeemable.
What do you mean by "traditional financial instruments"?There are stocks,bonds,mortgages,different kinds of loans,futures,call and put options.They are all traditional financial instruments,but they are different from each other.You can't just put them in one big group.
You are probably butthurt,because you have lost some Bitcoins,that's why you are hating on BTC and trying to spread FUD.Don't waste your time and move on.Losing money and making mistakes is a part of life.

Actually it's quite the opposite. Bitcoin is like a winning lottery ticket for most people nowadays. Back then, bitcoin's strength wasn't really seen by people. Only a few people have predicted it will have a high value and trusted their gut feeling. They are considered as the lucky ones because they managed to invest in its low position way back and hold it until now. Hence, bitcoin is like a winning lottery ticket that they have decided to hold onto until the moment they actually won because they trusted its potential. Although let's face the fact that bitcoin is not a get-rich-quick scheme. It takes time to make a profit. You need to have a lot of patience and determination to hold until you reach your target. It's considered as a store of value by most right now because of its nature which is decentralized. Despite being known to be a store of value, bitcoin is slowly fulfilling its original purpose which is to be a currency or as a medium of exchange. There are countries that are slowly transitioning and being open to bitcoin as their mode of payment which makes the mass adoption of bitcoin come to happen right before our eyes in a steady manner.

Thats a damn good lottery ticket then. If you bought it any time before April 2021, everyone won a decent amount of money. I don’t see such a good odds in any lottery.
But yes, we are listening the same FUD every few years and yet BTC is only climbing up.

Everyone can lend dollars or bitcoins and receive them back. But this is not puting them on the market or issuing them. Nor this is withdrawing them from the market or redeeming them.  Only the issuer can withdraw and redeem a financial instrument. If you lend a bond to your neighbor and then receive the bond back, that doesn't mean the bond is redeemed. Only the bond issuer can do that by paying face value.

If I give you $50K for a losing lottery ticket this won't make it a winning one, but the deal would certainly make me stupid, or lucky if I find a greater fool.

No, money issuers never redeem anything. The money in circulation will not be withdrawn from the market except to renew the ones that have been physically damaged. As I said, bankers (who serve society in general) are only third parties as first dealers. You have to understand why fiat is always devalued. You should also learn how the bank's fractional reserve system works, how that banker with their rights can easily double digits of money just from their teller's computers.

The fact that people rarely know is that the government only publishes the amount of physical money circulating, if you know the amount of money circulating in banks, you will be surprised that physical money is currently unable to cover it (if all customers withdraw all their savings). So, what you believe that fiat can be redeemed is wrong.

I don't know how exactly do they think that bitcoin is analogous to a losing lottery ticket because with what bitcoin's showing, I don't think that it's a losing lottery ticket because there's a lot of testaments to prove you wrong.

It's not wrong. It's your lack of understanding how the banking system works. When a bank issues a loan it literally creates numbers out of thin air. When the loan gets paid, number are literally destroyed - they are zeroed out in the balance sheets of the banks. They no longer exists in circulation. With new loans they are put back in circulation, and the whole process repeats itself. Before zeroing, numbers were redeemed, meaning the banks, via borrowers, paid non-monetary value to their last holders. Bitcoin is never withdrawn from circulation. Rather it is in an infinite circulation chain, were it just serves as a gift verification like in Ponzi schemes, where you give something to someone for free and then you are verified as a member. Bitcoin is simply digital verification of membership in Ponzi-like scheme. It has nothing to do with money or redemption. All legit money in the form of a financial instrument is redeemable.

And a losing one at that, imagine the winning one which doesn't exist to be honest. I give this person a 6 for originality with the FUD that he presented, no China or other generic FUD BS.

How is stating facts FUD?

When you know what is the total supply of Bitcoin. How it will be halved after 4 years. How it will become more valuable with halving, adoption. You will realize that if you buy Bitcoin, you don't buy a lottery ticket. What you buy is a get-rich ticket.

2036: 99.6% of Bitcoin will be mined (reward era 8 ). 15 more years. Do you know Bitcoin already existed 12 years. Only 15 more years, total mined Bitcoin will be 99.6% of its total supply.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Controlled_supply

There's no such thing as mining Bitcoin. There's only software that stores numbers on a digital media via some protocol. Although, I don't know what that has to do with the topic at hand.

Have you heard about companies getting bankrupted and their stocks going to zero, do you think those are redeemable. When you compare something you need to have some facts as if these traditional investments levitate above the rest  :P.

You can simply search on google about how many companies went down in the last ten years where investors lost billions. When it comes to BTCitcoin as long as you are holding the private key you are able to redeem the coins.

Point? In the video it's explicitly stated that bitcoin is like a stock of a bankrupt company.

Regarding the last point. You are not able to redeem Bitcoin, but sell it. Only the issuer of an instrument can redeem it and then the instrument units cease to exist.

Inflation is always been a problem but doesnt mean that Bitcoin would really be like a lottery ticket.We arent talking about chances on getting rich on here since we do talk about its use case

which we cant really deny that it is something revolutionary since we could really have an option for us neither dealing with traditional fiat or something which is decentralize and anonymous.

We could make our own choice but doesnt mean that we could just simply abandon fiat because it is still really be the main thing which been used.

Your comparison is just off, I should say. If bitcoin is like a lottery ticket to which a lot already bet on, the people have already defeated the house and won against the lottery. If bitcoin is a lottery ticket, it is damn hell of a rigged one--in favor of the people at that, and I'd bet my cash there in a heartbeat.

Also, stocks of a bankrupt company? Who would, in their sane mind, even want to acquire stocks of a bankrupt company anyway? If your definition of bankrupt is hundreds of billions of $ in market capitalization, then you have a few screws loose in your head.

Your definition of Bitcoin is peculiar to you alone, Bitcoin to me is not a losing ticket unless jump in and out of Bitcoin at the wrong timing, bitcoin is a store of value, and with the right application of knowledge and good timing, Bitcoin will be a lifesaver and a means to financial independence. I will suggest you work on your perspective, and you will begin to see Bitcoin global economic advantage.

In the world of a Fiat slave..... "Money" or "Wealth" has to have "Intrinsic" value and it has to be backed by some centralized and regulated entity, so they will NEVER see the benefit of Bitcoin, because they are the sheep of the world and they have to have some authority that needs to guide them.

A Lottery ticket is worthless the moment when the draw are done.... (if you won nothing) but a bitcoin can be used to give you a guaranteed profit, if you manage it correctly. (Buy Low & Sell High) ...... the only resemblance between the two..... it is a gamble, like buying shares or Stocks.  ::)

When you buy bitcoin, you support decentralization, you support fairness, and that is why humanity needs to achieve a centralized monetary policy that could easily be manipulated more than crypto. Yes, we do have a government because we elected the people who would run our country, but as to how our wealth should be managed, it should not be guided by any law that would only kill the liberty of using our own money.

Although HODL is very difficult but those who do so earns good profit. So crypto theory is to hold your token and earn profit  ;)

Bitcoin is a losing lottery ticket? There is no way that someone can say this unless Bitcoin really makes all people lose their money. There are so many people who have made a lot of profit in it or even got rich thanks to it. How can Bitcoin be a losing lottery ticket for everyone in this case? So I must say that I disagree with the opinion but respect it.

It is also possible for people who think Bitcoin is like a losing lottery ticket because they made the wrong decisions when entering and leaving the market.
Because I consider Bitcoin as the savior of the economy, especially in a pandemic situation like now. Bitcoin can also be a retirement plan if hold
in the long term, because the price of Bitcoin continues to rise and can generate large profits. Sometimes people don't study Bitcoin properly, and only
hear other people's opinions, so a lot of people get the wrong information about Bitcoin.

Decentralized money is a new concept and everyone in the government is finding ways to come up with laws so that they can have more control over the cryptocurrency market because they fear that their control over their people will be gone if everyone starts using decentralized money which will enable them to trade easily without any barriers.

Not sure about the analogy the video is making and i do not want to watch that stupidity either. @OP if you could summarize the thing it would be great.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything but very few people are going to watch a video when the review that we are getting out from you is very short and you don't really have any kind of compelling argument about why you think that bitcoin is like a losing lottery ticket, maybe if you actually gave a detailed review about the video people will be willing to watch it, but I really doubt that we are going to find any new argument about why bitcoin is bad and fiat currencies are good, we have heard everything already and we are still here.

I think that Bitcoin is not a losing lottery ticket as long as you are not a panic seller. If you are a panic seller, then most likely you are going to lose a lot of money in the period. Because you don't have a roadmap in bad situations in the market. So you will think that the selling is the best thing you can do to prevent a bigger loss. However, you will be in a greater loss technically in the long run.

It is not actually difficult to hold. Well, I guess it is if you're totally relying your money on it.

A holding investment should be kept for long and the money you pour into it is already expected not to be used for a long time.

Looks like another bitcoin hate video, so not going to watch it. Very highly likely made by someone who didn't invest when he had the chance to (or sold it for very cheap) and now regrets a lot that he started to make videos against bitcoin so that it might make him feel better. What do you mean by redeemable? By redeem if you mean exchange it for something else, then yes we can do that. By redeem if you mean it is not backed by something, then fiat currency also isn't redeemable. Anyway, stop spreading those shitty videos.

Bitcoin is a sure-fire lottery.The longer it takes, the bigger the jackpot.Bitcoin is not controlled by a government, which can print as much money as it wants.

I can convert btc to fiat so I think bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are redeemable. I usually use TRX to buy game items and there is no problem with it. Even El Salvador start to adopt bitcoin. I get a lot of profit from holding bitcoin and then I bought a car using that profit. I can convert my BTC to Gold if I want. But of course for me it will not be a profitable investment anymore. I bought bitcoin and I am not pretend it as a gambling, I did observation, calculation and etc before investing.

Read the OP. It's like a losing lottery ticket because both are numbers on a media, but not redeemable by the issuer. A stock of a bankrupt company is also not redeemable by the issuer.

Exactly. Even if you view Bitcoin as a ponzi scheme of some sort, or pure gambling - you're taking a damn good gamble because Bitcoin does not have a built in inflationary mechanism put in place. All the centralized banks control inflation rates, and target it at 2 percent.

Does Bitcoin guarantee you'll lose 2 percent of its value year over year? Nope. I'd rather take my chances with BTC over fiat.

I haven't defined bitcoin, just compared it. The same as a losing lottery ticket bitcoins are numbers on a media, that are not redeemable by the issuer. So it's not about how much money someone made by trading it. It's about how silly is to even consider trading it.

Personally, I think whoever created that video is confused. Fiat is redeemable and Same thing applies to Bitcoin. If Bitcoin is not redeemable then there wouldn’t be a way for you to withdraw it or convert it to cash. There are lots of exchange is such as binance.com or paxful.com that will allow you to redeem any crypto currency online eitherfor gift cards, cash,or another cryptocurrency.

So, saying that Bitcoin is not redeemable is completely wrong, people who don’t like it are ready to say anything just to bring it down. It is up to you to stop listening to them and do your own research and understand the fundamentals of cryptocurrency. Because if you keep listening to people, you will be misled and you continue to miss opportunities.Another thing you have to know is that no one is forcing you to make use of it, it is up to you and it’s a choice you have to make for yourself.

You are one of many people here that fail to differentiate between trading and redeeming. Trading is when a market participant converts instrument units to cash. Redeeming is when an instrument issuer converts instrument units to cash and in that way withdraws these units from market circulation. If you exchange cash for a bond you didn't redeem the bond, but buy it. Only the issuer can redeem an instrument.

You have yet to explain why it is important for an issuer to issue something and then redeem it.

Because that's the reason financial instruments exist in the first place.

That means that the ability to issue and redeem is not important because financial instruments can be based on Bitcoin.

So, if you decide to redeem casino tokens, and the casino that issued them, says: "redeeming is not important because financial instruments can be based on numbers on plastic", you would be ok with that? Because, you see, bitcoin is a number on digital media. Just like all financial instruments are numbers on some media. So, given your thinking, redeeming is not important because financial instruments are numbers on media. Are you aware how nonsensical your thinking is?

I have news for you. Dollars or your <X> fiat currency are not taken out of circulation either when you spent them (although they can be manually destroyed, just as amounts of cryptocurrency can be "burned" including Bitcoins if devs wanted to do that).

You stated that redemption is necessary for financial instruments. I showed that your statement is false. Can you provide a different reason for the importance of redemption?

The video explains in detail how dollars are redeemable, taken out of circulation and destroyed (if digital) with every loan repayment.

I stated the fact that all traditional financial instruments are redeemable numbers and that bitcoins are just numbers. You showed nothing. You just said that redemption is not important. Which is your personal opinion that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This topic is about facts, not people's opinions.

Ah, the old shill poster are back again, with his bullshit arguments to discredit Bitcoin.

The question is this... Do you want a "token" or worthless piece of paper that are being printed by mostly corrupt governments, that can be redeemed and ultimately destroyed and replaced with the same toilet paper currency? (The Supply are being manipulated to control the value of the fiat currency, that are backed by debt)

or

Do you want a "token" that cannot be controlled by corrupt governments and a currency with a fixed supply that cannot be manipulated? Also a currency that can change hands, without being damaged by excessive use or tainted by fecal matter and viruses and bacteria or Stripper sweat and/or traces of drugs (Cocaine sniffing)   ;D

Fiat currencies are losing it's value gradually over time, due to the uncontrolled printing of money by corrupt governments. Examples : Zimbabwe / Yemen / Haiti / Angola / Libya / Yugoslavia / Hungary.............. some even suffered hyperinflation.  ;)

You are right. The only time any kind of fiat is ever taken out of circulation is when the banks decide to replace them,,, to my understanding this is usually when they print new notes with new security, when they redominate or when they destroy bank notes that are too old/damaged. And this is always replaced, so circulation never goes down.

In fact, saving dollars in fiat in bank account causes new money to be printed as they always want money to be circulating in the economy. Hence when you save $100 in a bank, and the bank has $100 in credit, it loans out $100 to someone else. That borrower withdraws $100, your $100 still sits in the bank, but the bank orders $100 more new notes to be printed to give to the borrower.

This is fiat in a nutshell. $100 becomes $200 like magic.

You are unable to show that redemption is important. Therefore, your video is invalid because it depends entirely on the non-existent importance of redemption.

Watch the video. All your statements are refuted with it.

I am not here to debate what is important to people. That's individual thing. I'm here to state facts. Then, it is up to people to decide whether it is important for them to keep redeemable numbers or to replace them with just numbers. Video can't be invalid, as all it does is stating the fact that traditional financial instruments are redeemable, while bitcoin is not

The token is trump's private token. Not to have a broad community, maybe just its casino community. Bitcoin is all over the world. Yes, I know bitcoin could go bankrupt in the future. But it's a very difficult one because bitcoin already has a very large community now and continues to grow every year. We all know that this investment is very profitable.