Bitcoin Forum

Freebitco.in is straight scamming  now. I should have trusted my instincts and had all my people withdraw when they started adding all of the Fun token bs.

But my Mom's account was totally emptied of over $1,000 worth of bitcoin and my total went down tens of thousands at the same time.

I have attempted contacted freebitco.in at least 10x about this and I haven't gotten even once response.

They didn't even curse me out and accuse me of cheating like in every other review I'm seeing online. They just won't answer.

I am beyond furious. I literally guided my Mom to this site and told her it was safe and now all of the money she's deposited was stolen by these scammers.

If anyone can help me I would greatly appreciate it. My email is neraxismechgod@gmail.com

I dont even understand how to use this forum and I'm just trying to reach out and get help if possible or warn other people.

To make the story more believable, I suggest you add more evidence and proof showing that indeed your accounts were drained and also chat logs indicating how negligent the support has been.

You can use this scam reporting format to guide you;

So, you obviously use multiple accounts on there.
But what do you mean when you say "my Mom's account was totally emptied of over $1,000 worth of bitcoin"? you still have access to the account (So, you are not suspended/restricted). look at transaction history, maybe someone hacked that account and regularly withdrew Bitcoins from there.

btw. Here is freebitco.in Official PR Account freebitco.in PR (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=2723381), so ask for assistance from them.

or OP contact TheQuin (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=143168) on their Thread. I've visited their thread from time to time and TheQuin is usually the one I see who handles/responds to issues like this. so he will most likely respond to OP.

@OP, better provide evidence to back up your claim. so the members can know if the accusation is actually true or not.

Usually when someone claims a family member's account was banned it is really a case of the user having multiple accounts to get extra referral commissions and faucet claims.

That account is actually only in charge of marketing, and TheQuin is the forum representative for this kind of issues (as pointed out above).

So you simple had tens of thousands of USD on a place you didn't trust? If what you say ends up being true, and I'm rather skeptical, that's not really the smartest move buddy.


You pointed your mom towards a casino and told her it was safe... what could have gone wrong there? I wonder...

My mother is a total separate household from mine. I'm not using multiple accounts. I just have friends and family I've referred.

My account was only hit for a few thousand sats. But my mother's account was cleaned out.

I don't have multiple accounts and I'm not banned or locked out of mine. My Mom's satoshis are just gone.

No one broke the rules period. I've been faucetting since the beginning of Moonbitcoin. Never had a problem till now.

Thank you to everyone who actually tried to help and wasn't a condescending snide pos in their comments.

There is no back up other than it was there, then it wasn't. SO, I'm sure seeing as how they're the owners and can literally look to see what happened...

I think a developer stole it personally. That's what all the negative reviews say.

you know you are just one post away from your issue being noticed by their representative. I am curious what's stopping you from posting your complaint on their thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=320959.msg58341030#msg58341030) or contacting their forum representative. members have also advised you to provide evidence to support your claim. having evidence along with your scam accusation greatly helps your issue.

It's like you people are brain dead.

I've stated plainly that I'm not very techy. I don't know how to use a forum and I barely made it here.

It took me weeks to find out how to even get in touch with this site. But I'm started to get a really good general sense of my the larger public does not like crypto and says that it's full of scams.

I faucet on can use PayPal to cash out my satoshi and that's that.

The only "proof" I have is that it was there and now it isn't. She didn't withdraw the funds.

I've spoken the moderator who was beyond skeptical of my claims. I think he checked my account though. Not my Mom's.

Either way. I was told this was the #1 bitcoin faucet online. That it was safe. I've seen people roll whole bitcoins here, implying that people trust it enough to deposit whole bitcoins.

In searching for a way to contact the site I managed to find tons of bad reviews and far more damning evidence against them than good reviews and I know better now.

Just by the difficulty of reaching them and the automatically harsh reception with their representative I see why Americans still do and probably always will like legitimate usd and fdic ensured centralized banks.

Cause they offer deposit bonuses and all sorts of things but this is a joke.

Should have known the first time my reward points disappeared by like half that other things could just disappear too.

I've got f'ed cointiply when I invested hundreds of dollars into cointiply when they claimed that I only put in $90 in satoshi after canceling the mining game.

I got f'ed by moonbitcoin when they closed.

And now my own Mom is getting f'ed out of money that she deposited into freebitco.in

Trash. I bet all of those sites have something in common too.

instead of arguing with me, go and talk to their forum representative(like I said before), I've already linked their ANN thread and the name of the representative that will most likely respond to you. all you have to do is make contact with TheQuin to see whether your issue can be resolved or not.

also, you've been to this website before, so don't tell me it took you weeks to find this website and you don't have to be "techy" to find this website.

I don't think this is a multi accounting issue too. Otherwise, freebitco.in would have banned your account and you wouldn't be able to access it anymore.
Since the funds disappeared just like that, it's possible that your mom's account got hacked and the hacker stole the funds. Did you verify this possibility by checking the account's transactions history?

You don't need to be a tech savvy person to figure out how to send a personal message on this forum. Just go to "MY MESSAGES - > New Message", fill in the username of the user you want to contact (TheQuin) and send him a link to this thread.

Just because I've been here and know of the site doesn't mean that I really know anything about it or to contact them here.

You people are poisonous. Jesus Christ.

Also, I stated that  I already sent a message and got a pretty crass reply, numb nuts.

Once again, thank you to anyone who actually tried to help. To all you jumping to conclusions and speculating negatively against my claims, fuck yourself.

You are the reason people don't trust this shit.

you know if you PM'd TheQuin or Freebitco.in PR there is a chance that they are not getting it. the forum has a default setting where members won't be able to receive a pm from newbies unless they changed the setting which allows newbies to be able to send them private messages. that's why I am telling you to post your issue on their thread to let their representative know about your issue.

if you got offended by my previous post. my bad.

People are just giving you and advise on what to do so if you done all of things what they say then send them a follow up message then ask for an update regarding on your issues since ranting here cannot give you a proper solution. Also don't  expect that people will believe you since in the first place you didn't provide any proof and the only one you post here is your claims nothing else more.

That's simply because freebitco.in has a great reputation on the forum and you do not. To this day all accusations of scamming freebitco.in have turned out to be false, from cheaters. If you want us to believe you you will have to attach some kind of proof and in the unlikely event that it was a mistake on their part, you would do better to address it to them, as you have been told.

Ok, ok. Several things were unclear for me, please help clarify.

1. You've been around this forum for three years, since 2018, not a tech savvy, and yet didn't know how to use the forum and "barely made it here"? After all these years? And yet again, although you didn't know how to use the forum, a non tech savvy that's barely made it here, you fluently know how to create a thread? Are you sure you didn't mean you just bought this account from someone or you just made this post to bad-mouthing freebitco?

https://i.ibb.co/zrzjTp3/Pass-change.jpg (https://ibb.co/xDNPtWn)

2. Assuming you're truly not a tech savvy, the worst tech savvy ever that needed to read a guide just to turn on his pc, it's still would only need zero tech ability to understand that you'll get a better chance they'll respond to you faster on their thread, which we can be very sure you know its existence as your last activity on this thread was one year ago, on October 2020, posting on freebitco's thread. You'll get a better chance there, because they're there, checking the thread every now and then, compared to this whole board which they'll probably only check once a month or never, and when they --let's assume-- want to have fun and randomly visit this board, an accusation thread addressed to them can be easily drowned by other thread. But you didn't seems to bother posting there first, or at least inform them that you've made an accusation against them so they can come here to defend themselves.

3. Last year, on your last post, you made it clear you hated this faucet site, and yet you encouraged your mom to put her money on that site you swore people were "just burn cash". Ladies and gentlemen, this year's best son ever award fall to... --drum roll-- Neraxis! He won because he pointed his own mother to invest on a site that's --by his own claim and experience-- shady.



Post history archived (https://archive.md/5sUCV)

---

Edit: notifying  (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=319540.msg58362966#msg58362966) TheQuin about this thread and inviting him to give his side of story here.

I replied in one of our threads where someone notified me of this thread.

Alright, let's stop "beating about the bush".

  PLEASE Neraxis DO THIS

1. Login to your mummy freebitco.in account
2. On the drop-down menu click STATS
3. On that page click PERSONAL STATS
4. Take a screenshot of that page
5. On bitcointalk forum, create a new post
6. Post a screenshot of that page for us to see on this thread or upload the screenshot on https://imgbb.com/ and share the link here in this forum.


If you are not tech savvy, I have given you a good example for you to use.
https://ibb.co/5st8R9n


 $1000 is not peanut! Freebitco.in gave me my first bitcoin ever! Even when moonbit had problems, freebitco still kept their high standards!



Please I'm waiting for your post.

 I'm also interested in this story.

Please, I'm begging you on behalf of other forum users. Don't disappoint us.
 Thank you.

---

b]N.b.[/b]

Furthermore, Don't blame freebitco.in when there is negligence on your part.
1. Are you using 2FA?
2. does your computer have Viruses and trojan horse installed?
3. Was your account compromised? Do you use sandbox software?

 Also tell us what you did on your path that exempt you from being blamed

If I should add up all this pieces of your story for you to reflect upon, you may abuse me like the rest of the people trying to help you in this forum.


[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

They are not.


It's unlikely to be malware. There are no transactions to or from their profile default Bitcoin address so without 2fa any withdrawals must have been authorised from their email account. This looks far more like a case of forgetfulness to me. They thought they left a balance in another account and when they went back to it they found they had already withdrawn it. There's also some forgetfulness on the amount in question here. When it was deposited in July 2019 it was approximately $100 and not $1,000.

They have great marketing on the forum, which isn't the same as having a great reputation.
I don't trust them one bit, and this is why:

And this:

And especially his:

There's no hard evidence because they created their system so that you don't have any evidence:

Yes, we do. Check the stats page and work out what 5% of our daily turnover is. The reason we do it this way should be obvious after 8 years. It's far more interesting as a game than a regular faucet that pays the same every time and that has brought in a huge number of customers. It's also a way of introducing many people to the game of dice which is where the site's income comes from.



I find it interesting that the last time you said that I told you that I have responded many times before but it comes pointless responding over and over again.



We didn't create the provably fair system, we used the same system that was already in place on every other Bitcoin dice site at the time. It was created to allow you to verify your own rolls. It gives you the evidence. What it doesn't do is give me the ability to prove that we didn't cheat. That's what makes responding to these threads so pointless. Most of them are just using stats to prove that variance exists and the few that say we changed the servers seed just become arguments of he said we did cheaT, I say we didn't cheat, repeat until fade.

You assume every top winner will inform the world of his winning roll in that thread, but that can't be given for granted.
Out of all my top winning rolls I never wrote in that thread myself for example for laziness and/or not being interested in doing so - I never rolled out the top-tier $200 tho lol.

Link?

So complaints from users are ignored because you think it's "pointless"? I bet the users disagree! You didn't even respond to Neraxis while you posted in his own scam accusation topic.

The user can't verify the roll when server seed hashes are replaced:

That is exactly what provably fairness is meant to do. If the user can't use it to prove cheating and you can't use it to prove being honest, the "provably fair" system is "provably worthless".

Can you provide stats on how many freerolls have been played since the site was created, and how often each number came up?

No, I assume the odds of a faucet players (who usually gets $0.002) posting for an additional $5 is the same when he wins $20 as when he wins $200.

The site is in JavaScript so the link is the same as the rest of the site: https://freebitco.in/?op=home#
Click MORE and STATS is the last item.

There are several graphs showing information for the last 10 days including amount wagered.


That's not what I said. I said it is pointless repeating the same thing over and over.


That's because I had already responded to their PM on the 4th of November and I was only made aware of this thread on the 7th.^*



This is probably the source of your misunderstanding. This goes for all provably fair systems and is not in any way unique to Freebitco.in. Provably fair allows every user to verify to themselves if they were cheated on any individual roll. That's all it does but that isn't worthless.

You have options.

1) You can use a fiat gambling site licensed by an authority that specifies they have to use an approved RNG. You have no way of knowing if they actually used that RNG on any individual bet. If someone says they were cheated by that site you have no way of knowing if they are telling the truth or not.

2) You can use a provably fair crypto site that gives you the tools to prove to yourself if you were cheated on every individual roll if you make the effort to do so. If someone says they were cheated by that site you have no way of knowing if they are telling the truth or not.

3) You can just form an opinion based on what you read on the internet. If a few people start throwing mud at a site you can decide that you think some of it sticks. You can even join in and throw your own mud when you have no idea if what you read is true or not.

Provably Fair wasn't created to be a tool for The Forum Police. It lets customers find out if they are cheated. Even if all they can do with that information is decide not to use that site again it's still vastly superior to options 1 and 3.


It might surprise you to find out that we didn't keep all 130 billion rolls in a database. Even if we did and I was able to get those stats would you believe me? I don't believe the stats that some trolls have posted on this forum because I can see their real stats. That's what all this comes down to in the end. Without actually verifying your own rolls it's just a case of who you choose to believe.


The forum is a collection of individuals and both of you are stating your opinions. That isn't the same thing "our reputation". From my dealings on the forum, I'd hazard a guess that far more people have a positive view of us than have a negative view.  
I'll take the first part of your statement as a compliment. Thanks.


* Edit:

You have stated a couple of times that one of the reasons you don't trust us is because I chose not to get involved in that thread you quoted. That was nearly 3 years ago but this has just reminded me of the reasons. As was the case with this thread I had already discussed it by PM before I knew about the thread. When someone did post about it in one of our threads and ask me to reply I saw that the thread had already been hijacked by a particularly vexatious troll (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=2126895) with an agenda.
He was making money from referral commissions by conning people that his can't lose dice script was 'raping", his words, not mine, the big bad evil freebitco.in. His schtick was to repeatedly tell lies about us and use it as a way of getting more referrals. He would make some bullshit claim like we were stuffing the lottery file with fake users. So I would point out that would just increase the prize pool so it would be net-zero to us and pointless to do. He'd make another false claim, I'd answer that and so on until he just went back to the beginning and repeated the same claims as if I hadn't already answered him. I hadn't been doing this for long then but I had worked out that replying, feeding the troll, was counterproductive. It just gave him an excuse to keep repeating the same lies.
That post you gave him his 5 merit for was my first clue that he might be hacking his referrals. I couldn't be certain because he was just making those numbers up and it was later he said something else that made me put a warning on his trust wall that his bot might be malicious.
It turned out to be true https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5213523.msg53475361#msg53475361


 

Please can we not digress from the topic. From my observation, I think some people in the gambling business are trying to bring down a reputation of a good site. How does this particular comment relate to Neraxis accusations? Some people are even trying to get little flaws from a probably fair algorithm . This is sad!!!
Freebitco.in gives 1 free lucky spin a day to users like me but you don't say it. How many online casino dealing on bitcoin do such???? How many online casino have a good reward system with multiple options to choose like freebitco.in . . . Let me not even chat about the payout proofs or have we all forgotten the way coinpot did???  Please we should at least thank them. Freebitco.in is the best!  

We get attacked all the time. I don't know who are they are. A combination of competitors, bad losers, abusers that have been banned I guess. DDoS attacks, negative SEO attacks etc. Some of them cost money to do but slinging mud on forums is cheap and easy and there's usually a few well meaning people who allow themselves to get duped into being the bad guy's useful idiot by amplifying it.

Thank you for your comments. It's always good to be skeptical. I'm not going to get into the technical debate between you and TheQuin, but a couple of points:


Come on! I understand you live in Europe. Why does Euromillions have a €104M jackpot for the next draw, instead of distributing more money among the smaller jackpots?


The truth is that I find it hard to believe that you wrote this. It's obvious that not everyone has a bitcointalk account and not everyone who gets the prize is going to post in that thread. Also, that difference can perfectly be due to variance.


Really? I don't get into the other more technical stuff you mention but that may be due to simple and pure variance. Are you seriously skeptical based on one person's statistical sample?

My results in freebitco.in are also below average, but as I have been playing poker regularly I am used to the fact that the most normal thing is to have results well above or below average.

See a graph of a winning player in poker tournaments. If he plays every day, he spends most of the year losing and can make a year's worth of profit in less than a month.

I edit to say one thing I forgot: my biggest reason to believe in the honesty of freebitco.in, apart from the time they have been around, is that with the userbase they have they already make enough money by running an honest business without getting in trouble and ruining their reputation by cheating.

If someone shows me proof that they are cheating, I will believe it, but until then, if I have to choose between believing them or a newbie, I will believe them.

It's not really a technical debate. LoyceV thinks provably fair is worthless because it wasn't made to do what he wants to use it for. It's not to help the Great and Good of the forum to decide which casinos are the goodies and the baddies. It's for each individual customer to use to find out for themselves. It circumvents the need to rely on people like LoyceV's judgment.


As I was trying to point out here it's really not about reputation, that's in the eye of the beholder.


If any provably fair site started cheating they wouldn't have any customers left in a very short time.

I guess I'd need an account to view it.

I've seen similar results before. Back in the days, I also rolled a couple thousand freerolls myself, and found similar results. But since I only had maybe 3000 rolls, I assumed it was because of variance. However, with 10467 rolls that's not very likely (far less than 0.1% chance). Add the fact that not all rolls completed, and this statement doesn't seem too far fetched:
Unfortunately, I don't have the dedication to do 30,000 freerolls myself, but if anyone else wants to do it I'd love to see the results.

As a test, I created 100 sets of 10,467 random numbers (0-9999) on my PC. 70 of the sets have the number 9999 at least once, and 66 have 9998 at least once. There's only 1 set in which 9995 is the highest. That means 99% has at least hit 9995. now this is the variance I expected.

Would it be possible to adjust it in such a way the user can prove when server seeds get changed, so that he could still verify "missed" rolls? That would clear cases like pangolier88's.
I like how Bustabit for instance does it: all rolls can be verified completely, but I get that it can't be used in dice.

Especially with selective cheating, it's hard to detect for a user. And many users won't even bother to verify their rolls, especially if they need to check hashes before each roll. That's why for instance 999Dice could cheat users for years.

A thought just occurred to me: if pangolier88 is right, TheQuin would probably not even know it, right? I take it you don't have access to that level on the server that would need to be verified.

Yes. That is the very first step anyone who wants to find out if a provably fair site is cheating needs to take.


We already know you would love that. We also know that you would love to use them as mud to sling at us without even knowing if the person you are quoting just made them up. Would you even care if it was one of our competitors and you were being used?


You have a very good way of completely missing the point I have made. It doesn't matter what I have access to. Provably fair is between a site and every single one of its customers. It is there for them to use and make their own decisions. It makes the likes of you giving your opinions on sites you have never even used irrelevant. I explained to you the three options. You have chosen option 3. Just to believe anything you read and then go around repeating it. In this business people who choose that option aren't taken seriously.

This isn't the first time you have tried to tarnish our reputation by taking an unrelated allegation off-topic by regurgitating other people's smears. You started off by saying that you don't think we have a good reputation here. I'll tell you how confident I am that your opinion is way out of line with the majority of the forum. I sometimes get support emails from new customers asking how they can trust us. I always reply with a link to this forum and tell them to check out our reputation for themselves.

Reputation is important to all casinos. With fiat licensed casinos reputation is the only thing people have to judge if a site is fair so the market tends to be dominated by big household names. With provably fair people understand that fairness is for them to check themselves so they are more interested in whether a site is going to payout or not. Is it stable and safe to leave funds there etc? That's why I don't even need to bother replying again every time someone repeats bogus allegations of cheating. Provably fair supersedes reputation when your customers can see themselves that allegations on the internet are false. That's why all your efforts to paint us as baddies are futile.

Edit.

One thing I'm curious about. How long is going to take you to work out that nobody cares if you trust us or not because you based that opinion solely on information you have no idea about the validity of?

I've done a few test free rolls today , and I've noticed  that :    client seed , aswell as server seed gets randomized after each roll.      Even though I don't have the option to randomize   the client seed before each roll active.  
https://s3.amazonaws.com/roll-verifier/verify.html?server_seed=c2dc5c8828fcc15e85c60ffc7c28e009b3a4a725b3132e20382d35d1d9b67390&client_seed=MyMmHiu8FAMqsZoH&server_seed_hash=8d1ce1f831110aabbc7d8b2662b6affca05548621dd8a57de5580aaa5c23dc8a&nonce=513506

https://s3.amazonaws.com/roll-verifier/verify.html?server_seed=32138790bb5fb38efe5fd283fb7a4308f91bac06c72650ed44173439ee6236c4&client_seed=keTstARu9UylFaXk&server_seed_hash=045719aa2db13c180218b71efa2c64d0dd0e5bcef543984bd70165e3c4715ff8&nonce=513509
https://s3.amazonaws.com/roll-verifier/verify.html?server_seed=ccf6db3096bc11eedeffe6b26640120e5e1b6d7b2423ef5b53dbb1bee3192251&client_seed=7utw3tpyg2pkk7riory1f&server_seed_hash=972b8a131465700974602bda7400b8bb2a0625d980e70babfc9abe94acc71f67&nonce=513508



How exactly is this provably fair ? When theoretically the system can spit out any client seed + server seed combo so that the higher payouts don't pop-up as often as they should.


Quinn do you even know the concept of provably fair ?

This is no longer provably fair ,  you're simply asking users to "trust" you that you're not scamming them ,  "cause you have a lot of clients" ,     I find it funny that one of the most trusted dice sites here on bitcointalk ,    isn't actually provably fair verifiable. 

I have noticed that you are wrong. The option to randomise the client seed is here:
https://sirv.freebitco.in/1636674070_2Ez0cXdH.png

When you reaload the page the JavaScript calls the RAND function in your OS to create a new one. If you really want to use the same one you can just save it and change it back.


So this theoretical situation is impossible because our system doesn't spit out client seeds your OS does and because it is in JavaScript you can see the source code to verify that's true.


Yes. I have to correct customers misunderstandings on the issue regularly.


I do hope you now understand that you were mistaken because I would hate you to have to rely on trust. People relying on that can be easily fooled into believing trusted members of the forum who have been hoodwinked into doing the bad guys' work for them. You should never blindly believe what other people say when you can verify it yourself. You might end up believing someone who formed an opinion by making a judgement on how believable they think other people are.

I'm sorry I'm late to the party, but I'm just reading this now. There is one thing that Freebitco.in could do to actually get this: reset the nonce.

I've never understood why the nonce remains unchanged even when client and server seeds get changed, but it's the way they've been doing things since the very beginning. It's actually the only questinable thing I would point out so far in the few years I've been using the site, and believe me when I say I've seen many changes happen over time.

I don't understand what you are saying because the nonce can't remain unchanged. The nonce is a sequential roll number that starts as zero for an account's first roll and increases by one for every roll.

Edit. This reminded me of a conversation explaining nonces in our thread:

Most PF games I've checked/analized/call it however you want, on different casinos, change the server seed and nonce after the client seed is changed.

All rolls/bets are made using the same client and server seed, with just changing the nonce. The moment the client seed is changed, a new server seed is generated and the nonce reset.

If the casino is skipping rolls, this is easily verifiable because the nonce will also skip numbers. If the casino decides to change the server seed, it will be easy to catch; since the nonce would have reset and the hashed server seed (and seed, ofc) won't match the previous ones.

Not sure I made myself more clear with this now. And although I understand what Darkstar explained on the quoted post, I don't see how it relates to the point I was trying to make

That you are wrong about how other sites work affects your ability to verify is why I couldn't understand the point you were making. Please take a moment to read the description on that link (https://dicesites.com/provably-fair) _DarkStar gave.

He says "Although there are several implementations of the provably fair method, we will describe the most common one."

If you then read NLNico's description you'll find it describes exactly how ours works. We haven't done anything different that could make it possible to think that our system was somehow suspicious.  

Edit. Just to add some more.

The only other implementation I have seen is static server seeds. I have had a couple of requests to change our system to that. Some people prefer it because they think it is easier to use. Other people don't like it because they can't verify each roll as they go along but instead have to wait until they reveal the server seed and then go back and verify them all together.
Whether or not the nonce is reset to zero after revealing the server seed or is continued in sequence has no consequence because both sides know what the next nonce is going to be. All systems make spotting if a casino is skipping a roll verifiable because all nonce based systems allow you to see if they don't follow the sequence. Resetting the nonce makes absolutely no difference to that.

Example
Site A uses static server seeds. A user makes 20 rolls nonce 0 to 19 and then decides to verify those rolls and reveals the server seed. The site doesn't reset nonces so both parties know in advance that the next roll is nonce 20 so the site can't skip the next roll.
Site B uses static server seeds. A user makes 20 rolls nonce 0 to 19 and then decides to verify those rolls and reveals the server seed. The site resets nonces so both parties know in advance that the next roll is nonce 0 so the site can't skip the next roll.
Site C uses the plain vanilla implementation with a fresh server seed for each roll. A user makes 20 rolls nonce 0 to 19 and is able to verify each roll after they make it. Both parties know in advance that the next roll is nonce 20 so the site can't skip the next roll.

Tell me how any of those systems are more or less provably fair than the others?

Ah! But I was not trying to explain how yours worked, just how adding the static server seed you described could render all those "you've changed my server seed before the roll" claims invalid.

I agree that reseting the nonce is just a choice and that it would "not" really have an influence, since in both cases it must be sequential.

Both systems are PF, following the principle that the result can be verified. It may just be a perception bias, but I'd be more inclined to trust a static server seed that resets after getting changed, because it won't only prevent results from being skipped (both systems do that), but if there's a change on the seeds, I'd know when it happened.

That wasn't what you originally said. You said


That's why I couldn't understand what you were getting at.


I think it's just a personal preference thing. Some people prefer one system over the other. In the 4 years I've been doing this I've only had 3 people from memory requesting we change it. I would guess if we did I might get 3 people over the next 4 years asking us to change it back. It's also a very big change. It would mean rewriting the whole thing from the ground up.

Edit to fix accidentally duplicating the last paragraph.
 

Yeah, I see where the confusion came from; Loyce was talking about pangolier88's complaint; which consisted on the server seed changing rather than skipping rolls:


I quoted the whole sentence and well, it did look like I was talking about something else.



I guess we could never know; unless someone comes with some clear data/evidence that a system is better than the other one. I also suppose it'd be too much work to allow both systems to work at users' choice, so there's that too

What I was getting at is how unimportant it is. Out of all the tens of thousands of emails I have dealt with and thousands of posts about us on the forum only 3 people care about this enough to request it.

The conversation above yours got me to think about a lot of things. When I was trying to make the comparison with fiat licenced casinos that can't use provably fair I thought about what would happen in a parallel universe where provably fair had never been invented. Gaming would still have been one of the first things Bitcoin was used for. The casinos would have to rely on the same things the fiat casinos do to establish reputations. But actually, that isn't any different to what happens now. The principles of reputation and trust in business are universal and apply to all sectors.

When people on the forum talk about reputation it is in a very narrow forum centric sense. It bears no resemblance to what reputation means in a broader business sense of the word. This is all background noise that most people will never hear. Freebitco.in wouldn't be so successful if it didn't have a very good reputation in the sense that actually matters.

Evidence

 ::).  ::).   ::)

Freebitco.in is legit. If you really want to get evidence, you should be ready to "put your money where your mouth is"

. Just google probably fair algorithms. there are many sites that vet online casino. Select one and pay to check if freebitco.in is legit in their probably fair games.


A good website has already explained how to verify a probably fair game


Please visit. https://dicesites.com/provably-fair


 also on bitcointalk.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=877078.msg58472967#msg58472967



Don't use evidence as excuse anymore. Post your finding here with proof and we'll listen. As for me, freebitco.in is fair in all their games.