Bitcoin Forum

One of the largest roadblocks I have in defending bitcoin (and cryptocurrency in general) is when people compare it to a Ponzi scheme.

There is plenty of bitcoin FUD that is easy to defend, but when people pull the Ponzi-card, that is when I begin to get agitated. This is because I don't have a sound argument to combat this claim.

For those who are not readily familiar; A Ponzi scheme is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors. The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from legitimate business activity, and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds.

People compare bitcoin to a Ponzi scheme because the price increases when more money flows into the underlying asset.  If I buy for X and sell for X+100 that 100 profit of mine came from another person who bought into the scheme after me. In the eyes of many, this is dangerously close to how Ponzi schemes generate value.

What is the best argument against the Ponzi scheme narrative?

In what ways are Ponzi schemes different from bitcoin?

How do they generate value differently?

Bitcoin is not a ponzi, because it has some value. Let's see some things that makes bitocin valuable :

- It is limited. It is scarce.

- There are many use cases. For long people seek to create an internet money, a money which ia not controlled by a central authority and cannot be controlled by anyone. Now with bitocin you can send your money the way you want: permitionless,borderless..

- Ponzi schemes are centralized.one group of people control the scheme

Nowadays, you cannot even create bitcoin out of think Air. It costs thousands and thousands of dollars to mine one bitcoin.

Bitcoin doesn't have any referral/affiliate to attract people, it doesnt promise  anything, and doesnt promise that your money will just increase after you join in, it doesnt have fixed rate/percentage to get profit at a particular time/day/week/months, lastly, Bitcoin doesnt have a CEO, it's not a company.

They should know how trading works, or say barter, where everything starts in the ancient.

Early investors are not paid profits from recent investors. Any investors can take profits from any other investor by trading at the right time.

Satoshi never told anyone that they were going to make a profit at any time, and indeed, many early investors lost money via electricity and hardware costs mining an asset which was worth nothing at the time.

There is no secrecy at all about what gives Bitcoin value or how the market is pricing it at any given time.

This is a pointless definition. The value of anything increases when more money flows in to the thing in question. Property, stocks, shares, bitcoin, gold, art, oil, wheat, cows, onions, you name it.

Great, great questions.

The first thing you have to tell them is that the definition of “ponzi scheme” or “pyramid scheme” is very strict. In a ponzi scheme, there's a leadership team that promises high returns and misleads the public with wrongful statements regarding an illegitimate business.

• Is there a leadership team that promised high returns? No, Satoshi or the people who worked to create this innovation didn't promise you anything.
• Have the developers ever lied or misled the public? Nope. Their actions reveal the exact opposite:  The software is open source, anyone's allowed to contribute; it promotes free speech.
• Is there an illegitimate business? If we assume that buying and selling bitcoin is a business, then that depends on how you see things. However, I think that the transparency of bitcoin discloses objectively that there's nothing illegitimate behind it, by default. If you start manipulating the crowd, then that's you who's problematic and illegitimate.

The reasons I highlighted.

The conviction that there's something legitimate while there isn't is what deceivingly gives a ponzi scheme, temporarily, market value.

The price increases based on a number of factors and not simply cause new investors buy in. Using that analogy, if you buy at Y price and sell at a loss of $100 what would that situation be?

Bitcoin is not even a scheme at all, it is simply a digital currency with some pretty cool features. No one should get into bitcoin with the sole purpose of profiting, rather they should be interested in the usage.
And all investments grow with more adoption. If you bought facebook stocks in 2012, you were expecting it to get more popular and grow in adoption which will lead to an increase in the asset value. That is how product growth works.

Ponzi schemes are frauds, bitcoin is not,
Ponzi schemes promise returns on investments, bitcoin does not,
Ponzi schemes do not have actual value, bitcoin has real life utility.

Bitcoin does not generate value, it has a real life utility and as more people realize that, its market value grows. Ponzis depend entirely on new investors and has no product value.

Ponzi is a shady business, bitcoin is transparent and not shady in its entirety.

Ponzi will later fail when no more new investors, bitcoin because of this can never fail because new people want to invest, old people want to invest more. If bitcoin price fall, some people are ready to invest again at certain price.

Yes as simple as 'if bitcoin is a ponzi', then stocks, commodities, gold etc, even life itself will be ponzis.

Transparency of bitcoin will make only hypocrites call bitcoin a ponzi scheme.

I don't think we need to compare bitcoin with ponzi projects or ponzi-related platforms. The first difference is that with the ponzi project, there's an individual or group behind the project with ulterior motives to rip off possible customers. In bitcoin, can we say Satoshi, the creator or even the contributors in bitcoin developments are running ponzi scheme? Definitely not. They are not offering any returns or profits, it is your own will if you will get into the bitcoin market. Ponzi projects are created for the sole purpose of screwing their clients by offering too-good-to-be true ROIs, and eventually abandoning their platforms once they pocketed the money.

OP, the biggest "flaw" in their narrative is this ===> Aggressive Marketing.

In any Ponzi Scheme, people joining these schemes are encourage to "market" the scheme to some kind of "network marketing" downline to keep the influx of new capital into the scheme. The people coming in...gets some reward for the people they introduce to the scheme... (Example : Level 1 = 10% / Level 2 = 5% etc...etc..)

Bitcoin has none of this... Anyone can buy bitcoins without ANY kind of reward system linked to it. Nobody are told to market "Bitcoin" to anyone .. you can just buy and hoard or Sell or use it when you want.  ;)

I know Ponzi schemes ..because I have "tested" it multiple times before. Bitcoin is a "Currency" or a "Commodity" ...like Cash is a currency and also a Commodity when you trade with it on Forex.  ;)

Ignorant people think that any scam can be called a "ponzi" because they don't actually know what a ponzi is. So, trying to argue that Bitcoin is not a "ponzi" is mostly useless.

I think the best strategy is to pinpoint the specific reasons for believing that Bitcoin is a scam and then counter those specific reasons.

For example, "Early investors make money from later investors, like in a pyramid scheme." Counter with:

• 1. Early investors can lose money, too.
• 2. Investors in gold and Netflix also make money from later investors and those aren't considered to be scams.

you can make the argument that fiat is a ponzi scheme.  or any stock for that matter.  if everyone sold apple untill it was worthless except you.   was it a ponzi?

What about swapping the example to lets say - Paypal, they dont produce anything physical,
its a digital service . . . ^{Bitcoin being similar as there is nothing physical produced, etc. etc.}

So If I bought paypal stocks 5 years ago and the value rises to todays value when I want to
liquidate my position in a profit, who pays that profit? Bitcoin investing essentially works the
same as traditional stocks and bonds, there is liquidity in the market to fund those who want
to get out. A sound project will have fewer liquidations than buy in.


A ponzi is solely reliant on new investors so there funds can be used to pay liquidations
interest, when there are no new investors there is no liquidity to pay people who want to
liquidate or early investors interest.

Ponzi scheme is when someone is taking money of new investors to pay the early investors. In Bitcoin no one is making any investment profit payments, you buy it and later sell it, just like with any other asset. If someone tries to insist that Bitcoin is a Ponzi after this argument, they just want to believe in what they believe, even if it has no basis in reality.

a ponzi is to pay interest to early investors to tempt them to not exit. to tempt them to stay invested.
drip feeding regular interest payments from the new investors funds to keep old investors in.

yet no one is paid interest in bitcoin,

when new person is buying bitcoin. he is buying what an earlier acquirer is selling. this is called trade.
once the trade is done. the seller is out.

its a simple 1 for 1 deal. one investor wants 1btc. another investor is offering 1btc.

people buying a banana buy it from someone who has a banana and wants to sell it. once its sold the first banana holder no longer has a banana.
the person buying the banana is not paying some agent who uses the money to keep early banana holders in and pay them interest to keep holding their banana

people buying a house. buy from a previous house owner. that trade does not earn interest for all of the current house owners before it.

bitcoin is like trading houses. not passing profits to investors that dont sell out.

bitcoins price rise is not due to ponzi interest profits. its due to increase of demand and cost increase of base value in bitcoins production.

People are just likely seeing crypto in general as a scam thing due to many issues about scamming and they are able to compare it to the Ponzi scheme. That was the problem by many and they don't want to change their mindset and that is also because they never see crypto physically and that add's more confusion especially those who have been experiencing scams outside crypto.

I ain't not to curse them like talking bad about crypto but telling them what exactly the story about Bitcoin/crypto might enlighten their understanding.

Someone is bringing us back because a ponzi scheme is totally different from other nature of cryptocurrency and especially bitcoin, from my point of view bitcoin never one come contrary as one of the Ponzi things we always emphasising on, a ponzi scheme is those projects that have no Nice or direction in project, or project that is been controlled by the people, which in this categorical elements bitcoin did not fall in any of them.

One of the very first thing I do when I'm in this situation is asked those people why they think it's a ponzi. Maybe they've encountered some scammers offering double your BTC schemes in the past and that's what they always remember.

This is also why some people I've met claim those returns are too good to be true and associate it with ponzi or pyramid schemes.

They have a point though. There are many ponzi schemes that use crypto as a cover. Bitconnect was one of the biggest. Who could tell me that a coin named CumRocket is a valid project? I could go on and on and on. The space is simply full of ponzi schemes and legit projects are having a bad time because of those shitcoins.

If a person was arguing with me about this, I would pretty much agree with him except for one condition, not all of them are.

The best argument you can point out to the people who keep telling it as ponzi scheme is bitcoin is a currency and the value of it will be base on supply and demand this is basic thing to know by the people and I'm sure they learn the supply and demand thing in their economic class.

Compare it to ponzi scheme where the initiator always promise a profit which sometimes newbie cannot resist.

A simple understanding of mine. With 90% of the ponzi schemes it is a must to make people join under us. This means we need to refer people to join and this will make a chain. One in the top order will receive big. This chain keeps going and going. With bitcoin there is nothing as you need to make people part of the network/market. The growth of the network happened without any promotion.

Everyone who is part of the market acquired knowledge and got into it. People spread the word about bitcoin with others out of enthusiasm and not by compulsion. This itself enough to defend against people mentioning bitcoin as a ponzi scheme.

You only need to understand what a Ponzi scheme is. Ponzi scheme has several salient features: 1. Small returns on investment are large, which does not conform to the law. 2 There are a large number of people, and they are divided into many levels, like a pyramid. 3 This investment can't see the real thing, it's like a dream.

In my place, there are many networking companies. One way to earn from this setup is by recruiting new members. The new members will pay a registration fee and part of that money will be earned by the recruiter. The new member will now be recruiting as well so that he/she will also earn. Do you know why this setup is not considered a Ponzi scheme? It is because they have a product to sell.

In a way, that's how Bitcoin goes. Bitcoin is not shelling out money for nothing at all. It is not an investment on purely nothing that promises a high ROI, which is what Ponzi really is. Buying Bitcoin means buying a currency that is decentralized, scarce, permission-less, seizure-proof, immutable, pseudo-anonymous, and so on.  

What you’re saying here by no means shares any sort direct coordination with Ponzi schemes. What you described here is exactly how the financial markets work and many financial products. This is just basic buy/sell demand which sets pricing.

If bitcoin were a ponzi then Satoshi would have taken off with money long ago. Bitcoin is also established by being open sourced, and designed so that there is no central figure that has any way of stealing or manipulating funds/coins.

Bitcoin's value comes from scarcity. If we suddenly increase the maximum supply from 22 million to 22 billions, the value will go down drastically because of increased supply. Bitcoin is fundamentally and structurally different than ponzi schemes. The major difference is bitcoin is decentralized. Ponzi scheme are centralized to core.

When someone says that bitcoin is ponzi because the other investor's money flow increases its price, you just need to say that as per the methodology, the stocks markets are also ponzi because the same things happens there!

I'm commenting base on my opinion and no bias for Bitcoin. There's really a similarity between Bitcoin and Ponzi but that depend on how people perspective. Bitcoin is cryptocurrency so it's normal that it's value will grow when someone bought since it has a limited supply compared to fiat.

Just like Ponzi, Early investors will benefit more from the late investors that entering in crypto. Let's just admit it since it's true but its applicable to tradable assets even on stock market. The only difference is Bitcoin don't promise an insane return for a certain period of time while Ponzi did. You can use this explanation to enlighten your friends.

Ponzi scheme is centralized, Bitcoin is decentralized.
Bitcoin will not deceive anyone and is transparent. Bitcoin has value because of everyone's consensus, and Bitcoin will not collapse because of the operation of a giant whale. No one can control Bitcoin.

I hate it with passion when someone brings a Ponzi scheme into bitcoin. There is no single comparison between them both. Bitcoin is a digital currency that can not be controlled or predicted upon via the amount of profit you will make in a given time but a Ponzi scheme can be controlled both in several profits if invested a particular amount. The Ponzi scheme always needs a marketer that will introduce you to it before it will be able to excel.
Bitcoin is globally talked about and welcomed but the Ponzi scheme only exists within a country

I can understand the point of view of all the haters,who are calling Bitcoin a ponzi scheme.
The price is being pumped,only when new money enters the BTC market.The early adopters became millionaires/billionaires,while the average Bitcoiner made very little profits(or maybe he lots some money).
However,Bitcoin lacks the referral/affiliate element,in order to be called a ponzi scheme.
Bitcoiners don't refer other people into Bitcoin and they don't get paid a commission for this.
Who knows,maybe cryptocurrencies are better than ponzi schemes,because that illegal referral element is missing.That's why many shitcoin scammers can get away with their scams.
I got sick of all the social media influencers shilling shitcoins and pumping their price in no time.
Those shitcoin scams are more like HYIP schemes,rather than ponzi schemes.
HYIP is kinda similar to ponzi,but there are some really small differences.
The most common thing between those two is the promise for gigantic profits.

From OPs explanation, everything investment sounds like Ponzi. Now let’s take farming for instance.

Stage 1. You need investment for the initial machines/land/crops = Bitcoin invest for miners, etc.
Stage 2. You harvest your crops after maturity = Bitcoin mined
Stage 3. You sell your crops @ price x to the first buyer after harvest = Miners sells Bitcoin
Stage 4. First buyer stores crops for after season and price goes up and sells to new buyer @ price x+100 = Bitcoins Bull market
And the stage can repeat itself over and again with little variations in-between.
 
I am also thinking that the Internet is some sought of a Ponzi, we can use it when we pay to access it. I don’t even understand why people keep using the argument about when new money enters BTC that’s when the price pumps, this is the same for most if not all financial assets does that make them a Ponzi scheme?

Great small but very valuable answer , sad that i have no remaining merit to send for you.

Ponzi scheme only succeed because there are still some people that is a willing victim, meaning those people that does now look deeper in any project instead just looking to How much they will earn,
and that is GREED that made them loser .

The comparison you made, while may seem astonishingly convincing at first glance, especially for those who aren't used to giving much thought to misleading narratives and myths randomly thrown at them and thinking critically in general, is very simplistic and superficial because it doesn't take into consideration a very important factor, namely the fact that the risk taken by early investors in Ponzi scheme is much much lower than that in the case of Bitcoin. Early investors in bitcoin couldn't know bitcoin would be valuable in the future. The "early" couldn't have known there would ever be "later" investors.   Still, they invested their time and effort in developing and learning about bitcoin, they invested their money to mine something that had no market value. Still, they took a risk and continued to mine at loss. Maybe they believed in bitcoin, they believed in the idea of decentralized digital money. If bitcoin had failed, these people would have lost their money, and you would probably have been mocking them for the stupid decision they made. They were rewarded justly for being right.

I think those people are just a victim of the Ponzi scheme where they didn't move on with it and think of every investment opportunity the same as it. But people who are far more intelligent than them don't take their senseless advice rather people like us take the consideration to see the truth with ourselves and guess what? The problem is not with bitcoins but with those crooks who used Bitcoin or Ethereum as their props to fool people about their fake investment scheme where they promise high returns or short-term ROI to get some investors. This was the main problem back in the days but right now, it's all different and people already know the truth about it.

To the best of my knowledge, bitcoin has value attached to it which ranges from the point of it generation otherwise known as mining, a lot of hurdles are been overcome to get the bitcoin into live and this doesn't come cheaply, and huge finance has been invested in science of mining and securing bitcoin by thousands of people all over the world.

Bitcoin as a digital currency has been able to solve a lot of financial lapses bedeviling the traditional finance and it seeks to give back power to the people rather than the central authority and it growth and adoption in price and popularity has been phenomenal. These are just few points to prove that it's not a ponzi scheme.

Bitcoin is decentralized which means no one can control or manipulate value, whereas ponzi scheme is centralized where only few people at the top who makes profit out of getting investment for new people promising crazy insane profits quickly.Bitcoin's value comes from its utility, being limited and also demand and supply. Although there are some altcoins which are ponzi scheme so you have to do your own research where to invest.

Actually you're not completely correct.
It's true Bitcoin is decentralized and anyone can own Bitcoin no matter what his country, ages, religions, etc. But there's a whale who own large amount Bitcoin in a single address, we also don't know how many address he have. If the large amount Bitcoin were moved to another address, it will be posted on whale alert and sometimes it's affect the market.

They (whale) may not controlling Bitcoin, but they've a big impact on the market.

I think that is a poor description. A Ponzi scheme is a fake investment scam in which the scammer leads the victims to believe that their investments are earning returns when they are not. The scammer may convince the victims that the investment is real by paying returns from later investments, but it is not necessary.

There are many examples of a Ponzi scheme paying returns on paper, but not actually ever really paying anyone anything. So-called "cloud-mining" is a good example of a Ponzi scheme that may never pay any return (except on paper). Many Ponzi schemes make the victims wait a long time before they can cash out, and then the scammer takes off with the money before that time has passed..

You are getting agitated because you are not able to handle the truth. The truth is that Bitcoin *is* a Ponzi scheme. At-least until now.

People who get in early and HODL will make way more money than those who come in later and HODL and so on and so forth.
Right now Bitcoin is valued at $47k. The only way it will shoot up in price is if more and more people get into crypto and buy more and more of Bitcoin. This includes institutional investors, Billionaires, regular people, people who switch from Alts to BTC etc.

If nobody ever buys another BTC, the price will collapse because most people (99.999%) who "invest" in BTC/Crypto are only doing so to make more money.

This is how BTC started out and how it blew up and grew like a wild fire on a hot summer day.

We have a suicide hotline posted regularly after the bubble crashes after a new batch of retail noobs get slaughtered every cycle. This is almost a meme now to sell when grandma starts talking about crypto.

Let's see the definition of a pyramid scheme as per usa dot gov

"Pyramid schemes need a constant flow of new participants to keep them going. They use new recruits’ "investments" to pay “profits” to those participating longer.

Pyramid schemes collapse when they can't recruit enough new participants to pay earlier investors."

Having said this. I also think that BTC is slowly transitioning away from no longer being a ponzi. BTC was not inherently valuable in the beginning. But now BTC is  *famous* and has a rich history and will simply never ever go away. It is fast becoming a vanity asset and it akin to digital gold. Every Billionaire, Millionaire will eventually want to have some just for sake of vanity. Each BTC will be like a painting of Mona Lisa with it's rich transaction history and being a scarce asset.

A random guy spent 10000 BTC to buy a $10 pizza 10 years back. Now, most of middle class in the world cannot afford to buy even 1 single BTC. Becoming a whole coiner is kind of a big deal now. Even people who do buy 1 BTC get nervous and sell it off if it declines by 10% in a single day.

Eventually, 1 BTC will end up trading around $5 Million per coin or more for a simple reason that big players want to get hold of it and there is simply not enough to go around.

how bitcoin become ponzi? That's nonsense mate because that's the way how bitcoin works even before whrein through demand and supply, so without such thing there's no chance for us to make money in it as well. Many people saying its a scam because they don't have knowledge how they can become successful in it after how many losses. Lol  Without knowing that it requires knowledge especially when it comes demand and supply where a lot people are buying and selling..   and what do you mean if you bought bitcoin it came from fraud?   Shut the front door mate. Unless if you don't use a trusted platform.. And if not your a lucky human to receive bitcoin from frauds. Lmao
Make some research sometimes.!!

It seems you don't understand what a Ponzi scheme is.

Yet plenty of the people who go in early also sold early and made very little profits, and plenty of people who got in later traded well and made lots more profits.

Not at all. If everyone decided to stop selling at the current prices, then the price would immediately shoot way up, regardless of whether or not any new people or new money got involved.

While true, this has nothing to do with whether or not Bitcoin is a Ponzi. If nobody ever bought another ounce of gold, then the price of gold would collapse. If nobody ever bought another barrel of oil, then the price of oil would collapse. Doesn't make those things Ponzis.

Ponzi scheme often is used when the project or the company is a centralized one.
For example, there are some investment company that turns out to be a ponzi scheme. In crypto world, ponzi schemes are often used when a project is promising high return rates to its investors. When you see the word "guarantee" and a high of return rate then its 101% scam.

In this case, Bitcoin isn't owned by a company because its a decentralized coin but if whales who own huge amounts of Bitcoin and Satoshi's address which is holding a million Bitcoin sold all of their holdings at the same time then it will have a huge effect into the market as a whole.

I think that you've got the answers that you want here :). I just hope that if somebody tells you again that Bitcoin is a ponzi then you can get other people's answers here. Good Luck.

If this were to happen, it would be a huge shock to bitcoin and all altcoins. Whales may not fully control bitcoin, but they can manipulate the market very well and will have a huge impact on the price of bitcoin and all altcoins.

Ponzi husks are indeed centralized, and bitcoin is only used as a tool to make the ponzi scheme look attractive because it uses bitcoin which is of course decentralized and cannot be controlled by anyone.
Many ponzi projects do bullshit by using bitcoin or cryptocurrencies as a means to attract members.

things like this were heard a lot during 2018, where after bitcoin experienced a significant increase, then it experienced a significant decline as well. from there many say bitcoin is a ponzi scheme or pyramid, which will be detrimental to new investors. but in reality it is not so, bitcoin is able to show in 4 years later, because this is purely from the law of supply and demand

the demand for get rich quick never goes away.

after every crash the whales/veterans start accumulating.

2 years later it starts picking up pace.

Retailers FOMO in. Everyone dumps it on the noobs and get rich.

Bubble crashes.

Suicide Hotline gets posted. Whoa.. did not see this coming!

Whales/veterans start accumulating.

The whole thing is one time loop.

People still think that bitcoin is akin to a Ponzi scheme? I don't exactly know how they go on about their lives being such a dumbass, it's like they're trying to make things wrong for bitcoin and discourage people from getting into it, plus who is at the top of bitcoin that's getting all the money then?

Your are one of the ignorant people I mentioned before. You say that Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, but you don't know what a Ponzi scheme is.

You go on and talk about pyramid schemes, as if you believe that a pyramid scheme is a type of Ponzi scheme. That demonstrates that you don't know what a Ponzi scheme is.

From wikipedia:
A pyramid scheme is a form of fraud similar in some ways to a Ponzi scheme, relying as it does on a mistaken belief in a nonexistent financial reality, including the hope of an extremely high rate of return.


Sure there are differences between pyramid and ponzi schemes but the larger point is that there is no legitimate business utility for crypto at this point that is driving the prices up. If you invest in Apple stock they are going to manufacture more iPhones expand more across the world/country and thus you get rewarded for it.

For Crypto, there is no product yet that is driving the prices up. It is 100% speculation at this point.

Ofcourse if you are invested in BTC/Crypto then you will not see the larger picture.

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

― Upton Sinclair

Here is one more way to look at it. There are 15000+ cryptos in the space. Is each and every one of them legit? No. 99% of them will go out this cycle. They are all pump and dumps. Now, they are all similar to BTC except for 1 thing. They are not as popular. That's all there is to it.

i think almost everyone knows what ponzi scam is and when some influential or famous guy comes to compare bitcoin with ponzi scam that person knows that's not true so they're just talking to piss off bitcoin users, if bicoin is ponzi then They could also call gold a ponzi scheme, diamond and oil a ponzi scheme. I think we have to start ignoring anyone who calls bitcoin a ponzi scheme.

Obviously late investors won't be benefited by bitcoin price fluctuations like early ones were, but it doesn't mean once this day comes bitcoin will become useless and disappear, like any ponzi schemes around.

Bitcoin will keep being used as virtual currency and as a method to protect our patrimony against inflation and abusive regulations from local governments over our money and properties.

However mutual trust from adopters is a must, otherwise what I said above won't work...

Except there is nothing forcing newbies to sell and lose out. The ones who hold through the dips and crashes and emerge through the other end have exactly the same percentage gains from that cycle as any "whale or veteran", as you put it. In a Ponzi scheme the new investor always loses to the older investor. In bitcoin any user can win or lose over any other user, if timing the market is what you are interested in.

Except all the merchants accepting bitcoin for goods and services, all the users spending bitcoin to buy those goods and services, all the employees receiving some or all of their paycheck in bitcoin, etc. You know, like any other currency.

The rational price for an asset is its risk-adjusted Present Value (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/presentvalue.asp), which in this case is based on aggregate expectations of a future price. So while the current price may not be justified by the current utility, it could be justified by the future utility.

ponzi, get paid after you invite people to join that project. and when people you invite, invite the other people, you will get bonus. salary made by people's line under your recruit.
i ever ask by my family about this, she ask me to join with bonus and the other extra cash. what we do just pay some cash and follow the rule, but i reject it because i know the end.

Simple

Who are the rich lords who sacrificed others in Bitcoin? no, in fact, everyone who invests in bitcoin experiences the benefits without anyone being harmed.
Ponzi schemes do not apply to Bitcoin, for me it is too conventional if there are still people who generalize Bitcoin with Ponzi schemes. even those people don't really understand what Ponzi really is.

Okay, who do we put the money in Bitcoin to? while the Ponzi pattern or scheme from A to B to C to D and so on. In Bitcoin who is the intermediary to continue our money? other than ourselves. In fact, Bitcoin is present as one of the first systems that dared to destroy the Ponzi system.

Why? because this is what I often say to people who think Bitcoin is Ponzi
"NO SYSTEM OFFERING FINANCIAL FREEDOM EXCEPT BITCOIN" think !!!!

That is not a Ponzi scheme. That is a pyramid scheme.

Bitcoin IS a “Ponzi”, but a natural-occuring Ponzi, like Gold. It’s not a Madoff-style Ponzi. Bitcoin doesn’t have a centralized issuer who can run away with your money. Plus Bitcoin is transferrable, it is used for payments. IT IS MONEY.


Both Ponzis and Bitcoin rely on the free market, but Ponzis are scams, Bitcoin is not.

The Ponzi claim shows a basic misunderstanding of bitcoin and investments. Yes, there is always a triangular structure with all investments, whereby newer investors are needed to keep the value of the investments going up. However, with Ponzi schemes there is fraud and misrepresentation, often with false claims of cash flows. Bitcoin is simply a network of people who generally value its decentralization. That early investors get rich is a feature of all investment types, including major stocks.

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A Ponzi is something very specific that implies illicit activity. Bitcoin is not and should thus not be referred to as a type of Ponzi. As I pointed out elsewhere, there may be similarities, but there are also major differences.

There's no such thing as a natural-occuring ponzi. Something is a ponzi or it isn't. Neither gold and bitcoin are ponzis as there are no promised returns from (the) creators.

And same goes for dog coins. However, it is obvious enough that the creators do it for the profit. Even if they find alibis (that it has a usage), I can't unsee those as frauds. Still, they aren't ponzis. Ponzi has a really strict definition.

The word "unaware" is a strong one for the argument, I think most of the investors of Bitcoin are aware of where does their profits came from, if they have manage to gain they should also know that some random person at the moment lost if they sell it on a lower price. If the haters tell you that Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme, then it won't survive for this long, as most ponzi schemes have been already eliminated and bitcoin still manage to survive.

I remember reading the article a few years ago where the term "natural" ponzi scheme was invented. The author wanted to say that is Bitcoin a Ponzi scheme, but they couldn't because it is not. So, they invented the term "natural" ponzi scheme. Of course, the bitcoin-is-a-scam crowd loved this term and has adopted it because now they can call Bitcoin a "natural" ponzi scheme, which seems to describe some kind of scam.

A "natural" ponzi scheme is not a ponzi scheme. It more closely resembles a pyramid scheme because both rely on early adopters making money from later adopters. Regardless, keep in mind that a "natural" ponzi scheme is an artificial term that doesn't describe any kind of real scam.

A Ponzi scheme is an investment scam in which the operator only pretends to invest the victim's money. They might pay returns using invested money, but they don't necessarily have to. Instead, they may just create account statements that show fake returns. Many restrict withdrawals so that they don't have to pay returns.

Of course there is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophic_level

There's a (mathematical) reason we cannot have infinite trophic levels. It's a pyramid system, made by nature herself. That doesn't mean we should stop eating meat, let alone food altogether. It is what it is.

So it's not necessarily a bad thing... it's just the law of nature. Nature knows better than Homo Sapiens, there's no question about that.

There are legalized ponzi schemes, such as the social insurance/pension system.

Some pensioners (especially early ones 100 years ago) got pensions for paying literally nothing (when the pension system started in the West) and current workers pay exorbitant taxes to fund the pension system, with no promise of getting a decent pension. Seems familiar?

Pension systems require new members/workers, which requires births and there's a birth deficit in the West these days. It will collapse sooner or later, just like Madoff's ponzi scheme.

I would call it a scam, but it's legalized by the state. Just like there's legalized violence (police) and legalized money monopoly (fiat currencies issued by private central banks like FED/ECB).

So it doesn't matter if it's a scam, what matters is if it's legal (having state backing) or not. Madoff didn't have any state backing (he was a small fish compared to big fraudsters), so there you go.

Thank god we have BTC, that's my "pension insurance". :) I don't give a shit about state pensions, regardless of the countless taxes I've paid over the years.

Hmm, interesting. However, is it proper to compare what nature does to human with what human does to human? Ponzi is a form of fraud made by humans effecting solely humans.

I think it's advisable to say that laws exist to protect the society. Legalization happens from the state to supposedly protect/take care of you. Yeah, pension looks like a pyramid, and many other things in life too. That's why the ponzi, as a term, is strict.

Besides, ponzi is by far a big fraud. What fraudulent does the pension system have?

Do you consider this a strong proof to consider the entire pension system fraudulent?

I agree about the latter, but for the former, I'm not yet convinced.

Do ethics matter?

Yes, because humans are part of nature and follow nature's laws, even if they don't realize it.

So, BTC is also a product of nature in a sense... just like fractals (sacred geometry).

In theory, yes, they enforce certain things to "protect" you. The reality is little bit more different.

Uhm, I don't know, maybe paying taxes for 40+ years to get a shitty pension in the end?

Just imagine doing DCA for 40 years: https://dcabtc.com/

Even 5 years only can pay huge dividends.

The choice is clear for me. I don't trust the state, I trust myself more (BTC as a pension).

Of course not everyone is a responsible person. Most people would rather have instant gratification and spend their whole capital prematurely.

I prefer to treat adults like adults, not babies (infantilization) that need "protection" from a "dad" (nanny state).

Yeah, especially since abortions are legal too. You cannot have both abortions (so lack of workers) and a strong social security/pension system. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You have to pick only one.

Monopolies hurt competition and increase corruption. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

For the state? They clearly don't! ;D

How ethical can it be to pay 40% taxes and get shitty rewards from the state...

Come on, we crypto people look for the lowest fees all the time, even 5% seems crazy high. 40% fees would be insane and yet, sheeple eat it up.

By that reasoning, isn't everything a part of nature?

Yes, there's power abusage. However, at least there's a theoretical protection. I can't see it same like I do with classic ponzis.

So, what to do since these people live among you and me? The overwhelming majority doesn't trust themselves more than the state.

Of that I'm agreed. I spoke about the pension system.

The thing is need to dissociate the media from the scheme. As madoff used $ to make ponzi doesnt mean $ is a ponzi. You can do ponzi with paperclips or socks. Its all in how you sell the asset with a promise of return when there is no return to expect at all.

Satoshi said clearly there is no dividend to expect from bitcoin its not like stock its like commodity.

I found this thread last day it was intersting to read on many levels.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=57.msg4772#msg4772

But still nowday cant deny most people buy bitcoin because they are sold a future benefit by selling it again latter. And this still gravitate around fraudulent schemes.

Can say its same in theory with some other kind of commodity but in reality rarely the case and even more rare twice and beyond that you can call a pyramid scheme.

Like ok you can resell a car but rarely more expansive used after 10 years than what you bought it new.

You can resell a computer but rarely more expansive used 10 years after than what you bought it new.

You can find some case like either some retro thing that is not in production anymore, or production is made more expansive for some reason. None of this really apply to bitcoin at all.

Only stocks or productive assets can be sold multiple times over years with a profit without being really a crude pyramid scheme because some value is created along the way and what you sell is a share of the owernship of this productive asset.

Bitcoin is not a stock or a productive asset, not by the huge margin of profit people expect from it ( x10, x100 etc ).

So in many case its still sold in a way that is close to fraudulent pyramid scheme by selling it as something that will rise in value for someone else latter.

And ponzi != pyramid scheme != greater fool game != mlm.

But many of those tricks or some form of market cornering are used to sell cryptos for a profits. You could even argue most of the demand is fueled by that. Hence why some people assimilate the crypto economy with fradulent scheme.

You can very rarely find legitimate case where you are going to buy a commodity and resell it at higher price without someone being ripped in the way.

Merchants are doing profits but they have a shop, some inventory, tax to pay and the staff that are essential part of making the commodity available. And that where the profit is going and its a one time profit.

You are not going to buy a commodity in a shop and just sell it back twice the price to someone else. Or its already in the gray area of morality/scam and in the realm of pyramid scheme. Because maybe you abuse someone vulnerability or weakness in a way or another.

Educating the masses would help clearify the issue of Bitcoin seen as ponzi. Many people have been a victim of ponzi schemes and most of them now generalize any online investment or opportunity as ponzi. But educating the masses can throw some enlightenment and clear the notion off. Ponzi is very different from ponzi in the sense that Bitcoin is completely decentralized and once a fraction is purchased either through a p2p network or throw any other means it remains in your wallet giving the buyer complete possession of the coin. In the area of ponzi the investor is investing in a project that isn't self explanatory. The attractive attributes is the promise to double the investment by an attractive percentage and most investors fall for that

There are so many educational videos scattering everywhere towards this ponzi schemes but unfortunately many still fall from it due to their own greed and laziness because many still believe that they can earn passive income without doing nothing. We see it keep existing and I believe this kind of investment schemes will never stops as many are hungry to earn without doing anything.

Yes, education is the key for these people to change their perspectives towards bitcoin.
Because most people who are identifying btc as comparable to ponzi scheme don't know what they are talking about.
If they try to learn more about btc and these alt projects, they can easily check the difference.
Understanding on what's really happening in crypto market starts from educating yourself.

Therefore, when I introduce Bitcoin to other people, I will always recommend that person learn Bitcoin from a trusted source. Then before investing
in Bitcoin, we really have to learn everything about Bitcoin first, that way will understand how Bitcoin works, this will finally be able to make
people understand that Bitcoin cannot be equated with a ponzi scheme. Most people I find around me who say that Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme,
usually he reads about Bitcoin from the wrong sources or he got a story about Bitcoin from a Bitcoin hater. Actually people who say Bitcoin is
a ponzi scheme, they don't understand what they are saying. So my advice try to learn Bitcoin properly and from various sources, so being able
to compare how Bitcoin works with a ponzi scheme is very much different. This is why I always want Bitcoin to be included in school subjects,
so that people understand Bitcoin from an early age.

That’s why it’s called a “natural-occuring” Ponzi, not an overt Ponzi. That’s how Bitcoin started to have surging value, as a “Ponzi”. For it to pay profit to a holder for higher value, newer investors must enter the system and buy them from those holders. BUT, like Gold, it stopped being a “Ponzi” when it was started to be used as currency in the dark markets, creating a circular economy.

Before bitcoin was started to be used as a currency of dark markets, it had no market value, and couldn't give any profit to early holders because newer investors had no reason to invest in something with no market value. Moreover, even if they wanted to invest in bitcoin, they couldn't do it anyway because early adopters saw no reason to "sell" their bitcoin. Those who wished to obtain bitcoin didn't buy it but rather invested their money to buy hardware with which to acquire useless (priceless) bitcoin. It was but an indirect purchase that didn't involve other people except for the miner himself. No one could have predicted that bitcoin would transform into something that has a non-zero value, but the fact that did happen doesn't make early adopters somehow look like nefarious creators of Ponzi schemes. This is an example of the natural-occurring evolution of money when it starts its journey as being collectible/commodity and ends up being used as a universal unit of measurement.

Is that a fact? It had market value if it had a market.

Plus what did the market look like for Bitcoin before its acceptance in the Silk Road? I believe the chart would be like some pumps, some crashes, like illiquid shitcoins.


There wasn’t a market to buy, or sell Bitcoin?


But how did Bitcoin start to have value before the Silk Road? It didn’t start with investors coming into the system to bid, and holders to sell, and as new investors came in, the market and the value of the coin didn’t become larger?

i gotta laugh here.

im agreeing with blackhatcoiner and disagreeing with windfury.
(expect social drama from them later)

bitcoin is not a ponzi.
bitcoin does not earn people dividends or interest for holding on..
bitcoins profit is from letting go of the asset.

no one earns anything until they sell it. and when they sell it only that seller gets the profit of his sale.
and once sold, the seller gets nothing after the sale. and got nothing before the sale. he just gets the value of the sale

there is no treasury pot of cash that is saved up, which takes buyers money in and spreads it out to existing investors to keep them in.

its simply trade. if i have 1 banana. i make no money unless i sell my banana. and selling my banana i get the full amount of the sale. no one else. and then i no longer have a banana. there is no 'continual income' for holding. there is no income from other investors for holding. you just buy and sell. thats it

its that simple

bitcoin is a tradable asset, not a ponzi investment.

I never said that Bitcoin is a Ponzi like the OVERT Ponzi schemes made by central entities, or a cabal to intentionally scam investors. I said that it started as a natural-occuring Ponzi, like Gold.

You said that Bitcoin stopped being "a natural occurring Ponzi scheme" once it was recognized as a currency in the dark markets. Why did they recognize bitcoin if it never hadn't been used as a currency or a medium of exchange before? The thing is that it has constantly been used as a medium of exchange since its very first exchange, which was a situation where a guy bought two pizzas (real goods) for bitcoin. According to the definition you provided, that was the turning point when bitcoin stopped being a Ponzi scheme and started its development as a currency. But before this happened, no one was trading bitcoin for real goods or other currencies, everyone was just mining and casually sending useless transactions. No one was expecting to become rich from hodling bitcoin or selling it to others, so there was nothing there that indicated any signs of a scheme.

Most of the ponzi schemes are just promising one of the most common things.

• Your money is safe.
• Can double your earning
• Can get back your capital immediately.
• 100% safe THIS IS NOT A SCAM

This is better to make yourself keep aware on the possible things might happen if you are trying to make an investment to different projects always make a full potential research.

I’m asking about Bitcoin before it was used as amedium if exchange, before the Silk Road. How did it have the value against fiat, if not from a group of people buying and selling it from each other, which grew, and therefore the value grew. I believe you, and I cannot answer that because we were not there.

This is how I look at it. There is a difference between a speculative demand for bitcoin and a "transactional" demand for bitcoin. The speculative demand is when buyers and sellers meet and exchange bitcoin for fiat back and forth for the sake of temporary profit. The transactional demand is when people use bitcoin as a medium of exchange not because it has some value in fiat terms but because bitcoin should be used and seen as a medium of exchange. It is a sort of demand that is driven primarily by ideological reasons rather than economic ones. People would send bitcoin to each other and exchange it for different services and goods so that they could prove that bitcoin actually works as unstoppable electronic cash without authorities behind it. It is natural that they wanted other people to recognize the significance of Satoshi's invention, and that is why they spread awareness that bitcoin exists and works. It was not a Ponzi scheme because the motivation to spread the word was different from that driven by greed and profit-seeking. It was to convince other people to use bitcoin as a medium of exchange. Obviuosly, they didn't succeed and only attracted speculators who don't care about the transactional value of bitcoin.

But it was a natural-occuring Ponzi. Bitcoin accrued value through buying and selling, and which it should have a willing participant to buy it higher from a participant before the willing participant. But it’s not a scam. There was no central entity scamming the users, the “Ponzi-process” was simply a necessary function to bootstrap the system.

Is it a Ponzi today? No, because a circular economy has been building, and developing behind it. But it started as one, a natural-occuring Ponzi, not a scam-Ponzi.

Okay, you made me do some research. A natural occurring Ponzi is a term that was coined by Noble prize-winning economist Robert Shiller. Here is the definition of this kind of scheme that can be found in his book called "Irrational Exuberance":

“Ponzi schemes do arise from time to time without the contrivance of a fraudulent manager. Even if there is no manipulator fabricating false stories and deliberately deceiving investors in the aggregate stock market, tales about the market are everywhere. When prices go up a number of times, investors are rewarded sequentially by price movements in these markets just as they are in Ponzi schemes. There are still many people (indeed, the stock brokerage and mutual fund industries as a whole) who benefit from telling stories that suggest that the markets will go up further. There is no reason for these stories to be fraudulent; they need to only emphasize the positive news and give less emphasis to the negative.”

This term was also mentioned by World Bank that criticized and attacked Bitcoin back in 2014: https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2014/07/17/world-bank-report-bitcoin-is-a-naturally-occurring-ponzi/

As far as I understand, "a natural-occurring Ponzi scheme" is another way of saying "a bubble driven by natural laws of supply and demand", which is basically correct because bitcoin has always been the product of a free market. The problem with the word "Ponzi" is that it implies malicious activities of some kind and sounds very negative. Natural occurring malicious activity sounds no better than a Ponzi scheme. I think that this term is mostly used by those who want to attack bitcoin and make others into incorrect thinking. It is misleading and dangerous, and doesn't help much to explain things.

Honestly it's a herculean task trying to convince unknowledgeable people that bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme, most of the basis of their assumptions is the fact that a hodler earns some reasonable amount of profits
 whenever there is pump in the price of the coin during a bullish run equally losing during the a bearish run, a concept that they think is synonymous with Ponzi scheme, which is absolutely untrue, infact an illerate will never get convinced about the whole idea about bitcoin thus will always discourage any newbie.

First and foremost, ponzi schemes already existed long before cryptocurrencies were created. The idea is simple- people would offer ridiculous amounts of interest rates in exchange for a minimum investment in a project, to be cashed out in a minimum of days or months depending on the deal/package you offer.

Bitcoin is definitely not a ponzi-scheme. It can be so difficult to imagine it being associated with it since it is entirely a system where people would invest in a certain project for a 'guaranteed' investment. Like what the name suggests, it is a 'scheme' where the risk of losing your money is so great that most people (myself included) got scammed by it.

As someone who consistently reports ponzi-schemes being advertised in the forum, I tell you that most have poorly-designed websites that were created in order to attract newbies into thinking that they can generate this amount of money in a short amount of time.

The way i understand ponzi scheme is not the another person will understand ponzi scheme, but ponzi the way i see it, is something that happens to be illegal that have no trust and is already existing before introduction of bitcoin, that is why some people encroached it to bitcoin area, is investing that does not have bottom root

But that assumes that people want to be educated when it comes to their financial future, something that I have found out is not true most of the time, people are so tired from their jobs and the problems they have on their everyday lives that the last thing they want is to have to learn about something else, so they dump that responsibility on money managers, politicians and economists so they think for them, and if they say bitcoin is bad and a Ponzi scheme then they will simply believe them.

I can see where the comparisons come in but a Ponzi scheme is an intentional scam, which is not a fair representation of Bitcoin which has a very functional usage as a conveniently trade-able currency. You'll find people who use terminology like this struggle to understand the blockchain technology behind it or intentionally mischaracterize it because they themselves do not assign any value to it. However even if you are not a fan of Bitcoin, you should be able to see that it makes transfers of money without centralized third parties possible across borders, which can save all sorts of people from paying unnecessary fees to middlemen and banks. Even if you are talking about selling to a greater fool theory, that can be equally applied to any speculative asset like cars, wines or art.

This had been the reality and thats why these people are isolated on things which could potentially freed them on such situation because the world is big and if you do look out on bigger picture you would

really able to realize on how things should be treated up and deal on and as you do gain up more experience you would able to handle things around you.Whether its a new one or

not then you would able to make yourself get along with it.The most common thing is that people do initially rushed up into something but once you do learn then you are
able to handle up things well.

It's you who subjectively believed that the term implies malicious activities. I was merely talking about the function and the process of why Bitcoin was a naturally-occuring Ponzi scheme. But for the sake of the argument, remove what the term implies, and let's stay with the function and the process.

You have to step aside, you don't have to have arguments, at least today, in reference to that topic, seriously it is an outdated topic and whoever falls for that question(s) has no idea what bitcoin is as an asset of value and what it represents as an economic tool, and the added value in the development of blockchain technology.

Some of the most smartest people that have ever walked upon Earth consider crypto to be a bubble. None of us here are smarter than these guys.

Buy low and sell high. Sell before the bubble bursts. That is the game we all are playing. This is not an "investment". This is simply a speculative game and we should acknowledge reality.

Bitcoin will go up in value again in the future. There is no doubt in my mind. But, we all need to have an exit plan. You need to have a point at which you will exit.  Can't play this game forever.

Views of economists

In 2014, Nobel laureate Robert J. Shiller stated that bitcoin "exhibited many of the characteristics of a speculative bubble";[61] in 2017, Shiller wrote that bitcoin was the best current example of a speculative bubble.[62]

Economist John Quiggin in 2013 said "bitcoins are the most demonstrably valueless financial asset ever created".[63]

Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz in 2017 said "It’s a bubble that’s going to give a lot of people a lot of exciting times as it rides up and then goes down." He emphasized its use by criminals, its lack of a socially useful purpose, and said that it should be outlawed.[65]

Nobel laureate Paul Krugman wrote in 2018 that bitcoin is "a bubble wrapped in techno-mysticism inside a cocoon of libertarian ideology". He criticized it as a very slow and expensive means of payment, used mostly to buy blackmarket goods, without a "tether to reality".[66]

Nobel laureate Richard Thaler emphasizes the irrationality in the bitcoin market that has led to the bubble, demonstrating the irrationality with the example of firms that have added the word blockchain to their names which have then had large increases in their stock price. The extremely high volatility in bitcoin's price also is due to irrationality according to Thaler.[67]

Four Nobel laureates, James Heckman, Thomas Sargent, Angus Deaton, and Oliver Hart, characterized bitcoin as a bubble at a joint press conference in 2018. Hart cited Christopher Sims's work showing no intrinsic value to bitcoin. Heckman compared bitcoin to the tulip bubble. Deaton pointed to bitcoin's use by criminals.[68]

Professor Nouriel Roubini of New York University has called bitcoin the "mother of all bubbles",[69][70] writing that the underlying blockchain technology has "massive obstacles standing in its way", including a lack of "common and universal protocols" of the kind that enabled the early Internet.[70] According to Roubini, bitcoin has failed as a unit of account, a means of payment, and as a store of value; he calls the claim that bitcoin cannot be debased "fraudulent".[70] "Scammers, swindlers, charlatans, and carnival barkers (all conflicted insiders) have tapped into clueless retail investors' FOMO ('fear of missing out'), and taken them for a ride," he writes.[70]

A bubble perhaps, but definitely not a Ponzi.

And that is the best case scenario, there are people that despite being shown evidence that bitcoin is not a Ponzi still believe it is, when you face a person like that it is better to forget about them and not argue with them, they care way more about being right than about the truth, and when that is the case the best thing for you to do is to not engage with them, let them think that bitcoin is a Ponzi and keep their fiat while you keep the best performing asset of the last decade and see who gets tired of it first.

The only idealogy ponzi schemes shares with Bitcoin is that both operate on a peer-2-peer network although in a totally different format. Different format in the sense that while ponzi would require a member of the network to make a deposit which is used to pay a another member of the network and once there are no more investors to make payments the system folds up. In Bitcoin the p2p is solely done a decentralized network and it doesn't need an official deposit for other members to earn. Everyone is solely entitled to their coin making every investor a bank of their own self

Thats why i dont really have much interest when trying out to make out some explanation into those people who do have that kind of mindset and something which you couldnt really able to convince out on the things you've been telling them and it would be better if you do just ignore since its not your loss since the opportunity that they could possible to attain when dealing with bitcoin is something which is important and might
able to changed up their lives when it comes to finances or in actual usage which would really make accessibility and transactions way more faster which the current system couldnt
really give on.

we can't force what someone thinks even though we've explained it, and in the end it will become a pointless debate. therefore let them with their assumptions, and of course time will answer it, until they finally regret the thought. Ponzi schemes usually only win once and once they fail they can't come back to work. It is indeed difficult to convey understanding to those who are anti-developmental in this era, especially when it is not visible

True, it is better to avoid such debates, because they are simply a waste of time. How can we explain to people who are ingrained in his thinking that bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. it is still possible to change the logic of people who already have such thoughts, but the chances are slim.

When I was new to cryptocurrencies, I followed a lot of ponzi programs such as cloud mining, initially they paid because they hoped that investors would add more deposits, and the easiest way to find out about ponzi is to think logically and of course read a lot of expert advice on this forum.

Just do it mate. Start encouraging them and stop over thinking that they wont change their views about btc because if we think about it, the adoption still grows up until now and I believe that a part of this people are anti bitcoin before or the people that think that bitcoin is scam.

They are convinced now because there maybe people that carefully explained to them if what is bitcoin or they saw that bitcoin is now popular on their place so they comeback to learn it again. We are not just a normal btc user here but we are part of a big community and we as a member we need to do our best to help btc or our community grow.

The pattern that is applied not only in Bitcoin but also in almost all assets such as stocks and others can be called a ponzi scheme if you take their perspective.  Indeed, most crypto cases are scams, for example in new coins, but it also happens in other assets.  When people invest heavily in new things that do not know the basis for assessing it, they will be trapped in a chain of fraud.  Bitcoin also has the opportunity to end up being a scam too if big holders withdraw all their assets and make the market down.  only clever clever us I how can continue to take advantage in every opportunity.

I also think that is the best option, after all there is no point in trying to force someone else to agree with it, if they think that bitcoin is a scam, fraud or a Ponzi people are free to think whatever they want, that is not going to change at all what we know about bitcoin and all the incredible benefits that we have been able to acquire thanks to it that it would have been impossible to get otherwise, so as long as we know the truth that should bee more than enough for us.

Ponzi had been long time existence, it is really just been applied whenever they do see that they could really make benefits from it into those people who are just dumb on believing that easy money do exist.

If people could easily identify it on the first place then they would able to save their asses on potential scam that would be seen on the way.

This is really just too rampant into this market and since there are people who do keep feeding these fellas then they would still exist no matter what.

I don't know why people say bitcoin is Ponzi. If it's ponzi, it's impossible for bitcoin to last long because usually ponzi doesn't last long, because other investors' money is deposited with other investors and so on, until they can no longer cover other investors.
and in Ponzi, most of those who profit are on top, while those who are profitable in btc are people who are good at seeing market prices and of course those who have a lot of btc.
I think the ponzi system and the btc work system are very much different. if explained here can be very long.

Ponzi scheme is clearly a fraud intentions to dupe investors. Ponzi schemes are now becoming famous via cryptocurrencies. Many crypto miners are duping investors money. Recent was safemoon.Critics of the SafeMoon project seem to be wary of it as it is believed that this cryptocurrency was started to generate hype. The SafeMoon crypto reportedly does not have any real-use case and it is criticized for rewarding hodlers and punishing sellers. It is alleged that SafeMoon's policy of punishing sellers discourages people from selling and that is a way to avoid day-trading and fix price volatility. SafeMoon charges a 10 per cent fee on each sale and says that it will reward long-term hodlers by distributing half of the fees charged from sellers among existing coin holders.
In addition, SafeMoon has a very high token supply of 1,000,000,000,000 tokens. Before the launch, the developers had reportedly burnt 223 trillion tokens and they can indulge in manual burns. This means that developers can regularly burn tokens and reduce the supply, which could cause the price of the token to go up.

True, but there are still those who say that the bitcoin working system is more or less the same as ponzi, even though we as users feel the difference is very, very far. It's true what you said, it would take longer to put it here, and I think a lot of people have been talking about the difference between bitcoin and ponzi.
It does take more time to explain bitcoin to people who think of it as a ponzi scheme.

So what is it that you're trying to say then because you didn't leave anything about bitcoin being a Ponzi? That bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme and that it's only attracting more people because it wants to make a lot of money and swindle a lot of people? Bitcoin should have been wrecked when the prices pumped in ATH, there's a lot of opportunities that it could have pulled that off but it seems that bitcoin didn't do it so...

No he did not say anything about that but he was only explaining if what a real ponzi look like. According to his explanations a ponzi can also be similar to gambling because when we gamble we can win at first. That can be one of their tactics for us to comeback and if we notice when we comeback we are now a loser. The logic is simple. If they offer something that is very promising like 100 percent return in 24 hrs, that is highly possible that it was a scam or a ponzi.

Bitcoin cant attract people because of its amazing features and not only because you can earn with it. It does not promise a guaranteed return and there is no one controlling bitcoin so its very far from a ponzi.

Yes, it is basically that of the programs that tell you that you invest very little money and get a lot, that is the entrance to a business with a blatant ponzi scheme, or what many call a pyramid, and the worst thing is that people fall incredibly into those blackmails or in those offers that do not make sense, they do not think that nobody gives away the money, and much less if you give little money and you will receive more, that is not logical, that is why many people who believe that BTC is a ponzi scheme or bubble, they are usually people who have no idea what they are talking about.