Understanding the Ponzi Narrative

[Ebede]

What is the best argument against the Ponzi scheme narrative?
In what ways are Ponzi schemes different from bitcoin?
How do they generate value differently?

First and foremost, ponzi schemes already existed long before cryptocurrencies were created. The idea is simple- people would offer ridiculous amounts of interest rates in exchange for a minimum investment in a project, to be cashed out in a minimum of days or months depending on the deal/package you offer.

Bitcoin is definitely not a ponzi-scheme. It can be so difficult to imagine it being associated with it since it is entirely a system where people would invest in a certain project for a 'guaranteed' investment. Like what the name suggests, it is a 'scheme' where the risk of losing your money is so great that most people (myself included) got scammed by it.

As someone who consistently reports ponzi-schemes being advertised in the forum, I tell you that most have poorly-designed websites that were created in order to attract newbies into thinking that they can generate this amount of money in a short amount of time.

The way i understand ponzi scheme is not the another person will understand ponzi scheme, but ponzi the way i see it, is something that happens to be illegal that have no trust and is already existing before introduction of bitcoin, that is why some people encroached it to bitcoin area, is investing that does not have bottom root

[South Park]

What is the best argument against the Ponzi scheme narrative?

In what ways are Ponzi schemes different from bitcoin?

How do they generate value differently?

Educating the masses would help clearify the issue of Bitcoin seen as ponzi. Many people have been a victim of ponzi schemes and most of them now generalize any online investment or opportunity as ponzi. But educating the masses can throw some enlightenment and clear the notion off. Ponzi is very different from ponzi in the sense that Bitcoin is completely decentralized and once a fraction is purchased either through a p2p network or throw any other means it remains in your wallet giving the buyer complete possession of the coin. In the area of ponzi the investor is investing in a project that isn't self explanatory. The attractive attributes is the promise to double the investment by an attractive percentage and most investors fall for that

But that assumes that people want to be educated when it comes to their financial future, something that I have found out is not true most of the time, people are so tired from their jobs and the problems they have on their everyday lives that the last thing they want is to have to learn about something else, so they dump that responsibility on money managers, politicians and economists so they think for them, and if they say bitcoin is bad and a Ponzi scheme then they will simply believe them.

[Fortify]

One of the largest roadblocks I have in defending bitcoin (and cryptocurrency in general) is when people compare it to a Ponzi scheme.

There is plenty of bitcoin FUD that is easy to defend, but when people pull the Ponzi-card, that is when I begin to get agitated. This is because I don't have a sound argument to combat this claim.

For those who are not readily familiar; A Ponzi scheme is a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors. The scheme leads victims to believe that profits are coming from legitimate business activity, and they remain unaware that other investors are the source of funds.

People compare bitcoin to a Ponzi scheme because the price increases when more money flows into the underlying asset.  If I buy for X and sell for X+100 that 100 profit of mine came from another person who bought into the scheme after me. In the eyes of many, this is dangerously close to how Ponzi schemes generate value.

What is the best argument against the Ponzi scheme narrative?

In what ways are Ponzi schemes different from bitcoin?

How do they generate value differently?

I can see where the comparisons come in but a Ponzi scheme is an intentional scam, which is not a fair representation of Bitcoin which has a very functional usage as a conveniently trade-able currency. You'll find people who use terminology like this struggle to understand the blockchain technology behind it or intentionally mischaracterize it because they themselves do not assign any value to it. However even if you are not a fan of Bitcoin, you should be able to see that it makes transfers of money without centralized third parties possible across borders, which can save all sorts of people from paying unnecessary fees to middlemen and banks. Even if you are talking about selling to a greater fool theory, that can be equally applied to any speculative asset like cars, wines or art.

[stomachgrowls]

What is the best argument against the Ponzi scheme narrative?

In what ways are Ponzi schemes different from bitcoin?

How do they generate value differently?

Educating the masses would help clearify the issue of Bitcoin seen as ponzi. Many people have been a victim of ponzi schemes and most of them now generalize any online investment or opportunity as ponzi. But educating the masses can throw some enlightenment and clear the notion off. Ponzi is very different from ponzi in the sense that Bitcoin is completely decentralized and once a fraction is purchased either through a p2p network or throw any other means it remains in your wallet giving the buyer complete possession of the coin. In the area of ponzi the investor is investing in a project that isn't self explanatory. The attractive attributes is the promise to double the investment by an attractive percentage and most investors fall for that

But that assumes that people want to be educated when it comes to their financial future, something that I have found out is not true most of the time, people are so tired from their jobs and the problems they have on their everyday lives that the last thing they want is to have to learn about something else, so they dump that responsibility on money managers, politicians and economists so they think for them, and if they say bitcoin is bad and a Ponzi scheme then they will simply believe them.

This had been the reality and thats why these people are isolated on things which could potentially freed them on such situation because the world is big and if you do look out on bigger picture you would

really able to realize on how things should be treated up and deal on and as you do gain up more experience you would able to handle things around you.Whether its a new one or

not then you would able to make yourself get along with it.The most common thing is that people do initially rushed up into something but once you do learn then you are
able to handle up things well.

[Wind_FURY]

But it was a natural-occuring Ponzi.

Okay, you made me do some research. A natural occurring Ponzi is a term that was coined by Noble prize-winning economist Robert Shiller. Here is the definition of this kind of scheme that can be found in his book called "Irrational Exuberance":

“Ponzi schemes do arise from time to time without the contrivance of a fraudulent manager. Even if there is no manipulator fabricating false stories and deliberately deceiving investors in the aggregate stock market, tales about the market are everywhere. When prices go up a number of times, investors are rewarded sequentially by price movements in these markets just as they are in Ponzi schemes. There are still many people (indeed, the stock brokerage and mutual fund industries as a whole) who benefit from telling stories that suggest that the markets will go up further. There is no reason for these stories to be fraudulent; they need to only emphasize the positive news and give less emphasis to the negative.”

This term was also mentioned by World Bank that criticized and attacked Bitcoin back in 2014: https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2014/07/17/world-bank-report-bitcoin-is-a-naturally-occurring-ponzi/

As far as I understand, "a natural-occurring Ponzi scheme" is another way of saying "a bubble driven by natural laws of supply and demand", which is basically correct because bitcoin has always been the product of a free market. The problem with the word "Ponzi" is that it implies malicious activities of some kind and sounds very negative. Natural occurring malicious activity sounds no better than a Ponzi scheme. I think that this term is mostly used by those who want to attack bitcoin and make others into incorrect thinking. It is misleading and dangerous, and doesn't help much to explain things.

It's you who subjectively believed that the term implies malicious activities. I was merely talking about the function and the process of why Bitcoin was a naturally-occuring Ponzi scheme. But for the sake of the argument, remove what the term implies, and let's stay with the function and the process.

[famososMuertos]

You have to step aside, you don't have to have arguments, at least today, in reference to that topic, seriously it is an outdated topic and whoever falls for that question(s) has no idea what bitcoin is as an asset of value and what it represents as an economic tool, and the added value in the development of blockchain technology.

[romeareo]

Some of the most smartest people that have ever walked upon Earth consider crypto to be a bubble. None of us here are smarter than these guys.

Buy low and sell high. Sell before the bubble bursts. That is the game we all are playing. This is not an "investment". This is simply a speculative game and we should acknowledge reality.

Bitcoin will go up in value again in the future. There is no doubt in my mind. But, we all need to have an exit plan. You need to have a point at which you will exit.  Can't play this game forever.

Views of economists

In 2014, Nobel laureate Robert J. Shiller stated that bitcoin "exhibited many of the characteristics of a speculative bubble";[61] in 2017, Shiller wrote that bitcoin was the best current example of a speculative bubble.[62]

Economist John Quiggin in 2013 said "bitcoins are the most demonstrably valueless financial asset ever created".[63]

Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz in 2017 said "It’s a bubble that’s going to give a lot of people a lot of exciting times as it rides up and then goes down." He emphasized its use by criminals, its lack of a socially useful purpose, and said that it should be outlawed.[65]

Nobel laureate Paul Krugman wrote in 2018 that bitcoin is "a bubble wrapped in techno-mysticism inside a cocoon of libertarian ideology". He criticized it as a very slow and expensive means of payment, used mostly to buy blackmarket goods, without a "tether to reality".[66]

Nobel laureate Richard Thaler emphasizes the irrationality in the bitcoin market that has led to the bubble, demonstrating the irrationality with the example of firms that have added the word blockchain to their names which have then had large increases in their stock price. The extremely high volatility in bitcoin's price also is due to irrationality according to Thaler.[67]

Four Nobel laureates, James Heckman, Thomas Sargent, Angus Deaton, and Oliver Hart, characterized bitcoin as a bubble at a joint press conference in 2018. Hart cited Christopher Sims's work showing no intrinsic value to bitcoin. Heckman compared bitcoin to the tulip bubble. Deaton pointed to bitcoin's use by criminals.[68]

Professor Nouriel Roubini of New York University has called bitcoin the "mother of all bubbles",[69][70] writing that the underlying blockchain technology has "massive obstacles standing in its way", including a lack of "common and universal protocols" of the kind that enabled the early Internet.[70] According to Roubini, bitcoin has failed as a unit of account, a means of payment, and as a store of value; he calls the claim that bitcoin cannot be debased "fraudulent".[70] "Scammers, swindlers, charlatans, and carnival barkers (all conflicted insiders) have tapped into clueless retail investors' FOMO ('fear of missing out'), and taken them for a ride," he writes.[70]

[odolvlobo]

... bubble. ...

... bubble ...

... bubble ... bubble ...

... bubble ...

... bubble ...

... bubble ...

... bubble ... bubble...

... bubbles ...

A bubble perhaps, but definitely not a Ponzi.

[South Park]

I  have seen lot of then in the past who think bitcoin is a form of ponzi scheme and today they feel sad how ignorant covered their eyes because of lack of knowledge. People who take bitcoin as ponzi lack knowledge,  when I meet people like that I have nothing to tell them because I know  after sometime the ignorant tied over the eyes will be taking away.

And that is the best case scenario, there are people that despite being shown evidence that bitcoin is not a Ponzi still believe it is, when you face a person like that it is better to forget about them and not argue with them, they care way more about being right than about the truth, and when that is the case the best thing for you to do is to not engage with them, let them think that bitcoin is a Ponzi and keep their fiat while you keep the best performing asset of the last decade and see who gets tired of it first.

[Zilon]

The only idealogy ponzi schemes shares with Bitcoin is that both operate on a peer-2-peer network although in a totally different format. Different format in the sense that while ponzi would require a member of the network to make a deposit which is used to pay a another member of the network and once there are no more investors to make payments the system folds up. In Bitcoin the p2p is solely done a decentralized network and it doesn't need an official deposit for other members to earn. Everyone is solely entitled to their coin making every investor a bank of their own self

[Mahanton]

I  have seen lot of then in the past who think bitcoin is a form of ponzi scheme and today they feel sad how ignorant covered their eyes because of lack of knowledge. People who take bitcoin as ponzi lack knowledge,  when I meet people like that I have nothing to tell them because I know  after sometime the ignorant tied over the eyes will be taking away.

And that is the best case scenario, there are people that despite being shown evidence that bitcoin is not a Ponzi still believe it is, when you face a person like that it is better to forget about them and not argue with them, they care way more about being right than about the truth, and when that is the case the best thing for you to do is to not engage with them, let them think that bitcoin is a Ponzi and keep their fiat while you keep the best performing asset of the last decade and see who gets tired of it first.

Thats why i dont really have much interest when trying out to make out some explanation into those people who do have that kind of mindset and something which you couldnt really able to convince out on the things you've been telling them and it would be better if you do just ignore since its not your loss since the opportunity that they could possible to attain when dealing with bitcoin is something which is important and might
able to changed up their lives when it comes to finances or in actual usage which would really make accessibility and transactions way more faster which the current system couldnt
really give on.

[andriarto]

I  have seen lot of then in the past who think bitcoin is a form of ponzi scheme and today they feel sad how ignorant covered their eyes because of lack of knowledge. People who take bitcoin as ponzi lack knowledge,  when I meet people like that I have nothing to tell them because I know  after sometime the ignorant tied over the eyes will be taking away.

And that is the best case scenario, there are people that despite being shown evidence that bitcoin is not a Ponzi still believe it is, when you face a person like that it is better to forget about them and not argue with them, they care way more about being right than about the truth, and when that is the case the best thing for you to do is to not engage with them, let them think that bitcoin is a Ponzi and keep their fiat while you keep the best performing asset of the last decade and see who gets tired of it first.

Thats why i dont really have much interest when trying out to make out some explanation into those people who do have that kind of mindset and something which you couldnt really able to convince out on the things you've been telling them and it would be better if you do just ignore since its not your loss since the opportunity that they could possible to attain when dealing with bitcoin is something which is important and might
able to changed up their lives when it comes to finances or in actual usage which would really make accessibility and transactions way more faster which the current system couldnt
really give on.

we can't force what someone thinks even though we've explained it, and in the end it will become a pointless debate. therefore let them with their assumptions, and of course time will answer it, until they finally regret the thought. Ponzi schemes usually only win once and once they fail they can't come back to work. It is indeed difficult to convey understanding to those who are anti-developmental in this era, especially when it is not visible

[maju69]

You have to step aside, you don't have to have arguments, at least today, in reference to that topic, seriously it is an outdated topic and whoever falls for that question(s) has no idea what bitcoin is as an asset of value and what it represents as an economic tool, and the added value in the development of blockchain technology.

True, it is better to avoid such debates, because they are simply a waste of time. How can we explain to people who are ingrained in his thinking that bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. it is still possible to change the logic of people who already have such thoughts, but the chances are slim.

[Sir Legend]

When I was new to cryptocurrencies, I followed a lot of ponzi programs such as cloud mining, initially they paid because they hoped that investors would add more deposits, and the easiest way to find out about ponzi is to think logically and of course read a lot of expert advice on this forum.

[SirLancelot]

You have to step aside, you don't have to have arguments, at least today, in reference to that topic, seriously it is an outdated topic and whoever falls for that question(s) has no idea what bitcoin is as an asset of value and what it represents as an economic tool, and the added value in the development of blockchain technology.

True, it is better to avoid such debates, because they are simply a waste of time. How can we explain to people who are ingrained in his thinking that bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. it is still possible to change the logic of people who already have such thoughts, but the chances are slim.

Just do it mate. Start encouraging them and stop over thinking that they wont change their views about btc because if we think about it, the adoption still grows up until now and I believe that a part of this people are anti bitcoin before or the people that think that bitcoin is scam.

They are convinced now because there maybe people that carefully explained to them if what is bitcoin or they saw that bitcoin is now popular on their place so they comeback to learn it again. We are not just a normal btc user here but we are part of a big community and we as a member we need to do our best to help btc or our community grow.

[oHnK]

They are convinced now because there maybe people that carefully explained to them if what is bitcoin or they saw that bitcoin is now popular on their place so they comeback to learn it again. We are not just a normal btc user here but we are part of a big community and we as a member we need to do our best to help btc or our community grow.

The pattern that is applied not only in Bitcoin but also in almost all assets such as stocks and others can be called a ponzi scheme if you take their perspective.  Indeed, most crypto cases are scams, for example in new coins, but it also happens in other assets.  When people invest heavily in new things that do not know the basis for assessing it, they will be trapped in a chain of fraud.  Bitcoin also has the opportunity to end up being a scam too if big holders withdraw all their assets and make the market down.  only clever clever us I how can continue to take advantage in every opportunity.

[South Park]

I  have seen lot of then in the past who think bitcoin is a form of ponzi scheme and today they feel sad how ignorant covered their eyes because of lack of knowledge. People who take bitcoin as ponzi lack knowledge,  when I meet people like that I have nothing to tell them because I know  after sometime the ignorant tied over the eyes will be taking away.

And that is the best case scenario, there are people that despite being shown evidence that bitcoin is not a Ponzi still believe it is, when you face a person like that it is better to forget about them and not argue with them, they care way more about being right than about the truth, and when that is the case the best thing for you to do is to not engage with them, let them think that bitcoin is a Ponzi and keep their fiat while you keep the best performing asset of the last decade and see who gets tired of it first.

Thats why i dont really have much interest when trying out to make out some explanation into those people who do have that kind of mindset and something which you couldnt really able to convince out on the things you've been telling them and it would be better if you do just ignore since its not your loss since the opportunity that they could possible to attain when dealing with bitcoin is something which is important and might
able to changed up their lives when it comes to finances or in actual usage which would really make accessibility and transactions way more faster which the current system couldnt
really give on.

I also think that is the best option, after all there is no point in trying to force someone else to agree with it, if they think that bitcoin is a scam, fraud or a Ponzi people are free to think whatever they want, that is not going to change at all what we know about bitcoin and all the incredible benefits that we have been able to acquire thanks to it that it would have been impossible to get otherwise, so as long as we know the truth that should bee more than enough for us.

[Hamphser]

They are convinced now because there maybe people that carefully explained to them if what is bitcoin or they saw that bitcoin is now popular on their place so they comeback to learn it again. We are not just a normal btc user here but we are part of a big community and we as a member we need to do our best to help btc or our community grow.

The pattern that is applied not only in Bitcoin but also in almost all assets such as stocks and others can be called a ponzi scheme if you take their perspective.  Indeed, most crypto cases are scams, for example in new coins, but it also happens in other assets.  When people invest heavily in new things that do not know the basis for assessing it, they will be trapped in a chain of fraud.  Bitcoin also has the opportunity to end up being a scam too if big holders withdraw all their assets and make the market down.  only clever clever us I how can continue to take advantage in every opportunity.

Ponzi had been long time existence, it is really just been applied whenever they do see that they could really make benefits from it into those people who are just dumb on believing that easy money do exist.

If people could easily identify it on the first place then they would able to save their asses on potential scam that would be seen on the way.

This is really just too rampant into this market and since there are people who do keep feeding these fellas then they would still exist no matter what.

[Bloodseekers]

I don't know why people say bitcoin is Ponzi. If it's ponzi, it's impossible for bitcoin to last long because usually ponzi doesn't last long, because other investors' money is deposited with other investors and so on, until they can no longer cover other investors.
and in Ponzi, most of those who profit are on top, while those who are profitable in btc are people who are good at seeing market prices and of course those who have a lot of btc.
I think the ponzi system and the btc work system are very much different. if explained here can be very long.

[JohnSmithK]

Ponzi scheme is clearly a fraud intentions to dupe investors. Ponzi schemes are now becoming famous via cryptocurrencies. Many crypto miners are duping investors money. Recent was safemoon.Critics of the SafeMoon project seem to be wary of it as it is believed that this cryptocurrency was started to generate hype. The SafeMoon crypto reportedly does not have any real-use case and it is criticized for rewarding hodlers and punishing sellers. It is alleged that SafeMoon's policy of punishing sellers discourages people from selling and that is a way to avoid day-trading and fix price volatility. SafeMoon charges a 10 per cent fee on each sale and says that it will reward long-term hodlers by distributing half of the fees charged from sellers among existing coin holders.
In addition, SafeMoon has a very high token supply of 1,000,000,000,000 tokens. Before the launch, the developers had reportedly burnt 223 trillion tokens and they can indulge in manual burns. This means that developers can regularly burn tokens and reduce the supply, which could cause the price of the token to go up.