Bitcoin Forum

Hi Guys!

I guess it's an appropriate section to post this. If not, please suggest to me where I can move this.
I was thinking of a unique way to secure the Seed phrase, and I found one. I don't know if anyone has tried this already.
It's called Magic Mug in my country. I don't know what is the name of this on other countries. But, People usually print on mugs to gift their partner. So, I thought, why not try it? I know it's not 100% secure. It can be broken. So, Don't use it only to secure your Seed. It's interesting, Fun, and can be necessary sometimes. One of the best methods is to secure your Seed using washers: You can check this thread by fillippone Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389446.0)

How does it work?: I guess everyone know does it works. Still, I want to describe it shortly. The Mug color is Black when it's Cool or at Normal Temperature. When pouring Hot water into the Mug, Mug's color will change, as shown in the photo below.

Before Pouring Hot Water:

https://i.ibb.co/C7CSvjb/IMG-20220609-211757-378.jpg      

After Pouring Hot Water

https://i.ibb.co/Lgt6rxB/IMG-20220609-211753-634.jpg

Pros:

• Cheap (Under $15)
• Uncommon

Cons:

• Can be broken
• Have to becarefull when print

Warning: Order at least two Mugs from different shops to print your Seed phrase, and never order online. If you can Order more than two Mugs, It will be better. Use it as a secondary seed phrase backup.

Why would anyone want to use this insecure means of storing their seedphrase, when they can get a hardware wallet for a slightly higher amount (if you're considering you would need to get two)?
Contracting someone to create a design for you with random words, would give a hint to a Bitcoin seedphrase, as the words would make zero sense when arranged on symmetrically. Giving the hint that you own bitcoins creates a security risk as you suggested it should not be ordered online.

The cons should also include that it's;
• Difficult to carry around,
• Would need to be imported into a device to be able to transfer,
• Could inadvertently be destroyed, misused, or tampered with if discovered.

A lot of the penetrations into so-called "secure systems, mechanisms, and processes" are done from the inside (inside job).

So if your spouse, brother or friend discovers it accidentially while using it (you're obviously not there of course), they could compromise the seed phrase without your knowledge, and you wouldn't have the smallest clue who did it.

When handling crypto, you can't really trust anyone unless you've done very valuable transactions with them before.

This looks fun for a qr code showing an address.

I think the intention for this is to have a backup "hidden in plain sight"; just left on a cupboard. It's pretty much your backup on a thing that not even a thief would think of taking. Not necessarily something you would bring yourself everywhere lol as it's not a wallet in the first place.

But yea, I think this is nice if you could make one yourself; definitely not something I'd risk asking a manufacturer to make lol.

So Simple. I asked to print two Mugs. You may print more than four mugs. If you make them from four different shops, I don't think anyone can guess you are doing something stupid to secure your Seed ;D. If a single mug contains 3-6 random words, It's not enough to guess it's your seed phrase.

A backup divided into only 2 has a good amount of risk. As for 4+ mugs, with that amount of wasted space the mugs would need, is it even worth it anymore? Taking note that more mugs = the more mugs you need to not break.

Idunno, at that point I'd rather just do something else.

Just imagine scenario when you need to use your only seed words quickly, but you don't have any hot water or fire to warm water  :D
I wouldn't use this magic mug for my seed phrase words, but it could be used for some fun crypto project that doesn't need to be super secure.
I don't know if this color changing gets weaker in time, but that could be one more thing to consider if you want to use them for this purpose.

Imagine if you forget the order of those mugs, now you have to find a programmer to write a script to brute force it :D With 3 words a mug (12 in total) that would be simple since it's just 4 mugs and 24 permutations (40k for 24 words) but still a pain in the bum.

haha
And you always may do it manually, moving mugs on the table. It would be some kind of "Hanoi tower" task ;)

I have heard some microprocessors designers hide texts/images in their projects, I wonder if any of them hide any content related to Bitcoin.
https://www.pcmag.com/news/cool-images-hidden-on-silicon-chips

Hardware wallet only generates seed in a secure environment and gives us better control over transactions, but backup is something else entirely and is a key part of securing our digital assets. Any innovative way to make backups is always welcome, although we can always talk about how reliable and safe it is in some way.

I personally would not use mugs for my seed for the reasons already mentioned, but I believe that some information can be obscured by using invisible ink (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_ink) which is then only visible if UV light is used, or depending on the ink if a heat source is used or certain chemical.

I think it is a cool idea even if it has the same problem as all seeds that you can't print yourself. Still you could secure the seed with a password also for added security.

I can see how it's interesting/fun, but i wonder what kind of scenario where this method is necessary. All i could think is main character on movies hiding their secret.


In that case, it'd be more practical to replace the words with number[1]. For example, number 777 represent word "genre" while number 8 represent word "abstract". When people discover it, it's more likely people would think you're into in "lucky" number[2-3].

[1] https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/english.txt (https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/english.txt)
[2] https://11points.com/11-popular-lucky-numbers-world/ (https://11points.com/11-popular-lucky-numbers-world/)
[3] https://www.numerologyreader.com/what-does-the-number-777-mean-in-numerology/ (https://www.numerologyreader.com/what-does-the-number-777-mean-in-numerology/)

Write them on the wall ;-) Something like:
https://i.ibb.co/BBdkRzt/proxy-image.jpg
For sure thief will not take it.

I don't think we have local mug printing shops, and even if they offer it, they'd probably get it from a centralized printing facility. So that's not good.

Imagine dropping your mug and having to glue your seed back together.

That will be more fun  ;D

It's not fun it would be a pain in the neck if the mug is crushed and nearly pulverized.
http://atlas-content-cdn.pixelsquid.com/stock-images/broken-mug-white-coffee-cup-v1041R8-600.jpg


Is there a magic mug that only shows hidden text when pouring cold water? We usually use mugs for drinking coffee with hot water so if someone didn't know that magic mug and used it to drink coffee then he can able to see the text.

So it is safe if it is a magic mug that can only show hidden text with cold water.

It is worth mentioning that one should take extra care when using numbers instead of words since it works differently if you are using GitHub that is showing line numbers starting from 1 and a computer program that uses indexes that start from 0. In other words in an array, genre is 776.

At that point, if you have to deal with off-by-1 errors to decode your seed phrase, you might as well just abandon the process. Most of the world's security vulns and bad bugs have come from good, bad, great programmers falling for the off-by-1 error trap.

I'm sorry, but saying "It's just for fun" doesn't give you carte blanche to give out horrendously dangerous advice which will almost certainly result in the loss of your coins if anyone was to ever follow it.

It doesn't matter if you buy from four different shops, or whatever additional "precautions" you think you are taking. At the end of the day, you are still handing out your seed phrase to complete strangers and transmitting it unencrypted over unsecured channels of communication, all to end up with an incredibly fragile back up which could be irreversibly broken or damaged with a single slip of your hand.

I cannot think of a single advantage this has over just writing down your seed phrase on paper. You should do that instead.

I don't like it for seed backups, sorry. The only slightly safer alternative to traditional porcelain cups is plastic or those unbreakable/break resistant mugs that are out there. But they can't change color like in your examples. Maybe something unbreakable that only glows under UV lights.

But even that doesn't get rid of the problem that someone somewhere has to be trusted with printing the words on the cups.

Yeah, and when someone wants to pay, then you take out a mug with a qr-code (with your bitcoin address) and hold it out for payment. The advantage of this Magic Mug Under $15 in this case will only be that you can immediately mark the deal by drinking champagne (or whatever) from this mug.  ;D

While we're on the subject of insecure seed storage systems anyway, you can prevent someone from knowing it by using a chalkboard mug.
Don't wash it though!

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71+zf47rQ+L._AC_SY300_SX300_.jpg

I tend to agree and it shouldn't be your daily use and a mug is a thing that might you're looking for daily in the morning.  It's frangible and isn't right to keep your seed phrase, it might just be for fun but I think if you've valuable stuff, you shouldn't use it daily, or might be decorative stuff in a safe place that you can assure isn't get easily damage.

I'd rather prefer to put your seed phrase in a book and separately right on a page that you've like, for example, your birth date.

I'm sorry; I commend the effort, but it's a terrible idea. The security issue is not that 'it can be broken'; it's that you're literally giving someone a clear view (maybe even written form) of your seed phrase! No matter how many more backups you have of this seed; you've now literally handed a stranger a copy of your Bitcoin seed words. Dividing it on more mugs just makes it more complicated to restore, seeing as even on this one you made, you haven't numbered the words.

So as Loyce suggested, printing an address QR code or a Lightning BOLT12 QR code (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5383567.0) would be a 'fun, sometimes useful' gimmick, but please not for seed words.

Perhaps not writing a seed phrase is better than that, lol.  :P

Further cons:

• Strangers know your seed phrase. (!!!)
• Can't be easily hidden.

Yeah... You don't want that to happen:  ;D

How can someone save an important keys on a unsecured object? There are two things you must consider:
1. The mug is too open. You can not hide the seed on the mug and also you can not print the seed inside the mug.
2. The mug is breakable which disqualified the mug to be used at all cost. And the changing of the color when used hot water is strange to me. What really causes the change, please tell us more. And also everyone will have access to your secret keys. I must tell you using this your mug approach is much more dangerous or it is at owner risk. Although I discovered that you only made a suggestion not an object that one must use but a suggestion from you that in one who is interested can used to to secure their. I really appreciate your effort for taking time and explain the mug. But I advise you not to use it instead use another metal other users has mentioned.

With the right paint, you can make the mug by yourself! That's much more secure (until someone sees it) and could make a unique giveaway if you want to donate some Bitcoin to a friend.

The magic behind the color-change is explained here (https://www.customhappy.com/blogs/news/the-science-behind-the-magic-of-color-changing-mugs), for example. There are two main elements that affect the change: heat-sensitive paint and the thermochromic ability of the material the mug is made of. When the temperature in the mug changes, thermochromism causes the change in color. Read the whole blog post if you want more detailed information. There are many other sources available online just like the one I linked to.