Bitcoin Forum

Ledger is partnering with Tony Fadell (the creator of the iPod) to build a new hardware wallet 'Ledger Stax'.


Your thoughts?

The wallet is going to be available by Q1 2023 but you can pre-order it now: https://shop.ledger.com/products/ledger-stax

I wish they hired capable devs (or at least assigned enough manpower) to finally sort out their Ledger Live application, instead focusing on the hardware wallet exterior. But I guess this brings more money and that's what matters in the end.

Free shipping to my country, but the hardware wallet is expensive with just little to no additional functional features in relation to bitcoin transaction and storage. The secure element is still close source, just normal connections like bluetooth and USB.

Or maybe I am wrong. With a big screen, is it now airgapped in a way I can just only use QR code to make transactions?

When I was looking for wallet that support opt-in RBF, I was disappointed that Ledger Live was not among, I hope Ledger Live will support full RBF.

For me the old Nano S is still good enough and I agree that Ledger is again pursuing new directions - of course, they are supposed to bring more income - instead of fixing their actual (and old/known) problems that would keep their existing customers happy.

Should I add that it costs the same as a decent 2022 Android phone? I mean, come on...

Rather gimmicky, if you ask me.  I don't get the benefits of the magnetic stacking feature, or the wrap-around screen.

It seems like it's full of marketing gimmicks meant to attract those who are unfamiliar with hardware wallets in the first place.  Do they really expect people to buy multiples of these, when you can use the same hardware wallet with multiple accounts?

I may not be their intended demographic, I don't need my hardware wallet to store shitcoins or NFTs.  But if it's easy to use, and given Ledger's marketing budget I wouldn't be surprised to see many of these get sold.

It's evident that they are targeting the younger generations of crypto holders with this fancy-looking device with a big touchscreen that can stay always on for as long as the battery lasts. I don't see anything there that would attract me to it. It's interesting that there is no mention of the internal storage capacity and how many apps can be installed at the same time.

The positive thing is all-around support for both Windows, macOS, Android, and iOS. I agree that stacking the credit card-like devices seems stupid, especially considering their price. The battery seems phenomenal if the technical specifications are true. It can be charged wirelessly and can stay on stand-by for weeks and months depending on how often it gets used.   

They are stingy with the recovery sheets. Apparently, only one is provided in the box. I wonder if it's that difficult/expensive to include at least 2 if 3 is mission impossible? 

Anyone interested in preordering should read the bottom of https://shop.ledger.com/products/ledger-stax.
Ledger still needs to get their new HW wallet certified. If the required certification isn't obtained, I guess the production won't go ahead or it will be delayed. Those who preordered will in that case receive refunds. 

I’ve gone through a bunch of videos that are now cropping up here and there, until I eventually came across a segment of a video that displays how the new model works (at least a basic glimpse of a TX):
https://youtu.be/XlE0BlXaQ0g?t=605

Other Videos I’ve gone through so far:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct0x31vhORY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlE0BlXaQ0g (encloses the above extract)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srwsw1VMai4

Personally, and this is just a first impression, I’m not that impressed. My mind is going over scenarios where I’d crack or break the screen, besides having to be wary of battery running down or eventually depleting it, storing it in a larger hiding place, making sure I don’t drop it, and so forth. The flashier it gets, the more delicate it becomes, and I’m happier off with a sturdier solution in any case.

The price is steep, and it doesn’t seem to take away the need to interface with Ledger Device or such either on a laptop or on a mobile phone. The name, if derived from the fact that you can stack them together (through embedded magnets), seems unbefitting, as that is not a feature to enhance by far.

All in all, I do like techy toys, but without further hands-on contact, that is what it seems to me at this stage.

My thoughts exactly. And not just harmless gimmicks, but gimmicks which actively compromise your security. Why on Earth would I want my hardware wallet to have my name displayed on it? So if I lose it an attacker knows who to $5 wrench attack to get the PIN? And why would I want it to display NFTs? So I can whip it out in public to show everyone my super expensive and rare NFT and make myself a target for attacks? And I really don't understand the stacking function. They want you to buy a separate device for each wallet? At $280? Lol. Or maybe you and your family members are meant to stack all your devices together in the same place to make it super easy for an attacker to steal them all at once?

Absolute nonsense. They should be focusing on things like Tor support and bitcoin only firmware, but I guess those things don't make money. So instead we get stupid gimmicks.

New closed source junk coming from ledger, that is way overpriced, and it's clearly oriented towards shitcoins and NFT circus show.
Paying €279 presale price for this device is a waste of money, but one thing I like is they are using E Ink touchscreen, something I suggested before that hardware wallets should use.
Bluetooth and Wireless is no go for me, and I don't see any real improvements and innovation compared to all other hardware wallets.
To be fair, I will have to wait for this device to be released before saying more, but for this price I would get Passport, Keystone, or several BitBox and Trezor wallets.

Tor is not paying them anything, shitcoins are ;)

Just for the looks.  They are clearly looking to just make their products more eye catching, nothing more to it.  Because clearly as Bitcoiners E-Ink displays and magnetic cases is what we were always waiting for.  Not Open Source components and software, not providing Bitcoin the very basic functions such as Message Signing, Replace By Fee and the likes in Ledger Live instead of supporting all sorts of Shit coins.

Who the heck would pay almost $300 for that?  There was an expensive device Ledger made before, it was Blue and whoever bought it is now crying as Ledger abandoned it.  What exactly guarantees me this $300 device will not end up the same way?

In the picture OP posted there is almost $1,150 worth of 'Stax'.  Why would I pay this much just to have a few blocks of External Solid State Drive looking hardware stacked on top of each other with magnets.  For at most a few hundred I can get myself a much better storage option for my Bitcoin and even buy a decent amount of Bitcoin with the change too.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

I think that Stax is another beautiful toy from Ledger. Admittedly, this company knows how to lure buyers with an attractive and bright cover / wrapper.

You can't ignore the price. ~$280 is a bit pricey, but I'm sure there are geeks willing to buy this and brag about it every step of the way.

Also, I admit, the device looks nice, but this should not be the main function of the device. It is more important that the HW is reliable and safe for storing crypto, and not for flaunting the device at parties. It seems that the ledger focuses on the second, forgetting what exactly the hardware wallets is for.

This is such a weird product. They claimed it was designed to travel wherever the user goes, but why would they bring an HW wallet when traveling in the first place? Or is there a new trend where people get a cold wallet when they take a trip? Bringing a hot wallet like a phone is probably the better choice, no need to carry two devices just to manage your crypto. I can see understand if it is like an NFC card or something similar like that. Since it is cheap and doesn't attract unwarranted attention, unlike this one.

Looking at how they promote this wallet, looks like their target is new retail investors who usually hold crypto on exchanges. Maybe one or two of their research department staff look at Reddit and see that this thing can sell since those people like fancy stuff, it is clearly not for me (and probably not for the majority of the user in this forum either). The price is also insane in my region, I can buy 3-4 Nano S for one of these, which is a better deal.

At a time when most people still complain that hardware wallets are too expensive devices, Ledger decided to make one just like that - so all those who think that they should allocate several hundred $ for HW will have another reason to continue living in their illusions. I can say that this device reminds me of their abandoned Ledger Blue (https://www.ledger.com/ledger-blue-an-enterprise-grade-security-device) model, with of course some modifications - but I certainly wouldn't buy it because of the magnet and the fact that it can display NTFs.

Somehow, it doesn't seem to me that this device will be too popular, if for no other reason than for the price, which at least 90% of users are certainly not ready to pay.

When it comes to the battery power, they claim it can stay on for weeks and months after one full charge. If that's true, it's quite impressive because I have never heard any other hardware wallet manufacturer to have such a feature.

Maybe you can upload a picture of yourself and write down your address below it. Completely unnecessary. 

That's just marketing nonsense. However, you can't compare the security offered by a hardware wallet with that of a hot phone wallet. But there is nothing wrong with their other devices that would require me to purchase this $300 credit-card looking thingy as my travel companion. If I wanted a Ledger for travels, I would go for an additional cheaper one, not the most expensive and delicate HW.

I would understand if it was a prototype and an experiment.

We had phones before with E-Ink displays on the back that shows weather, notifications, E-mails and so on at all times.  These had an utility, although nobody asked for it and nobody seems to want it anyway.

But to be honest, the only utility I see with Ledger's new product is someone wasting $2,799 on 10 of these Stax and using them to display some kind of meme made out of character map or an NFT split into 10 different long pieces.

Ledger is becoming the new Apple with these prices.  How will a discount look?  Get the Family Pack containing four Stax at only $1,150 $1,099, because it is definitely worth the deal?

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

Maybe, but at the same time a lot of people who hold their coins on exchanges are very casual/small users, and they leave their coins on exchanges because they don't want to pay the $5 withdrawal fee that exchanges charge. These people certainly aren't going to buy a $280 hardware wallet when you can get a more secure one without all the stupid gimmicks for $50.

This is marketing speak. Their definition of "on" in this sense will be that it will still display your NFT or your name or whatever other risky information you decide to display on the cover, but it won't actually be powered up for months at a time I'm certain. E-ink displays only use a tiny amount of power. As soon as you start doing resource intensive tasks with it like signing transactions then the battery life will reduce accordingly.

If it's one thing I have learned in all my years (decades) interacting not only with crypto but technology in general is never to underestimate the potential of people to waste money on useless and unnecessary gadgets. This is just one of them. They certainly have the marketing budget to shill this one to the sky, and I am sure that's what they are going to do. I don't doubt we will also see a few celebrities advertising this thing as something you just have to own and those techniques will be enough. Don't forget that people are still camping outside of shops when a new model of their favorite item is ready to be officially unveiled. 

Somehow I cannot lose the feeling that this will become Ledger Blue 2.0. Just hope that I'll be proven wrong, as it does look amazing.

It's an overkill ^{[e.g. wireless charging, curved/wrap-around screen and etc...]}!

As much as I hate to say it, that's actually the case with some of their users and I'm not referring to those who have multiple Nano S devices ^{[as someone who visits their subreddit from time to time, I tend to see more than a few users that actually own multiple Nano X devices (here's one (https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/ze8cvb/comment/iz5x5fh/))]}.

Is it normal for such display types to have a ghosting effect when it goes to another page or "this (https://twitter.com/brycent_/status/1600155971912728577)" is another one of Ledger's masterpieces?

It is impressive how can people are really pre ordering this just because it is beautiful, and it is not even certified that it is safe yet. Omg, a hw should be safe first, then beautiful.

They don't even know if it is safe yet!



It is a very beautiful model, but it is more expensive than a smartphone. I see no reason to buy one.

That's normal for E Ink displays, and you can see that on some Kindles as well.

You guessed correctly: the effect is known as "ghosting". The way it's explained, is that E Ink displays are made up of black and white particles. Every time the screen changes, those particles get rearranged to create the next elements on screen. Unfortunately, it also happens that the previous elements don't change completely, so it looks like you can still see what was there before.

https://blog.the-ebook-reader.com/2019/10/28/seeing-faint-background-text-on-ebook-readers-is-normal/

Unfortunately people are very impressionable by marketing and media, and critical thinking skills are becoming extinct.  Being skeptical is no longer taught in schools and those who follow the lemming mob off the cliff are commended and revered as "good citizens."



Lol, good catch.  I missed that when looking it over.  *Check out our awesome new hardware wallet, but it's not really a hardware wallet just yet!  

When are they going to know if it passes certification, who's certifying it, and who certifies the certifiers?

It is a third-party who certificates

Ledger is the only hardware wallet ho has this certification  (I don't know how much good is it  anyway)

That's probably because Ledger is the only hardware wallet vendor that operates out of France. ANSSI is the French National Cybersecurity Agency. Other countries may or may not have their own laws, requirements, and standards that companies in those jurisdictions need to adhere to. When an ANSSI certified laboratory checks a product, they issue it a security visa. It's like a stamp or guarantee that is supposed to give customers and all other parties confidence that a national authority has inspected and verified the product.   

You can find more information about it here:
https://www.ssi.gouv.fr/en/actualite/the-anssi-security-visa-by-the-french-national-cybersecurity-agency/

It follows the methodology of what the market wants. In the end, Ledger is a company that focuses on profits. Enhancing privacy is a problem for customers, whenever it is profitable, they will focus on it.

When people come to cryptocurrency community, they remember the banking systems, where you open an account and get a card that you can spend from, this device is an application of AIO, you will get everything in one device.

Is it worth this price?

It's almost the price of an average phone, with no extra features, and they haven't even tried to attract privacy-conscious individuals with a small privacy-related version.

Maybe you can buy an average smartphone for about $300, but that phone is far from those premium devices that cost at least twice as much, but also justify the investment because they are reliable, comfortable to work with, due to powerful processors and at least 6 GB of working memory. For example, I invested more than $600 in a smartphone 3 years ago and it still works perfectly today as it did on the first day - and one of my friends who bought these a little cheaper has already changed 2 devices.

What I want to say is that I find it a little funny that people compare a hardware wallet with the price of something that has nothing to do with each other - I can also say that for that price you can buy an electric romobile that you can use to go to work and to the store every day and thus save a lot of money on fuel that you would spend if you used a car.

Ledger released this new wallet called Stax and I have to say it does look cool physically, but what I was researching is inside components.
Most of the components and secure elements are the same that are used in ledger nano S plus, but they also included battery in Stax and that is the thing that makes me think this device will have similar problems like model nano X.

For people who don't know there is still a lot of problems with quality and control of batteries put in nano X, and I still see a lot of complains on their reddit page.
There are other problems people report with screen for model S, or bricking device when updating new firmware, but that is different story.

Here is one guy saying recently that 3 of his 6 ledger devices are defective!
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/103w9fb/3_of_my_6_ledger_devices_are_defective/

Different guy saying [Nano X] Not working when on battery. Ledger support not answering:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/103g7ez/nano_x_not_working_when_on_battery_ledger_support/

Few days ago, Ledger Nano X : Error Battery Cannot charge:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/zvrmsx/ledger_nano_x_error_battery_cannot_charge/

Stax is using rechargeable lithium-ion 200 mah battery, and model X is using lithium-ion 100mAh battery, so I think it's just difference in number of cells.
We still don't know if they are using same partners from China for batteries in model Stax, but if they are, I would stay far away this new ledger device.

Yep, I agree.  For me there's no need for something really fancy when it comes to hardware wallets, and both the Nano S and X are easy to use and are small.  I don't know about anyone else, but bigger is not better with HW wallets IMO.

I'd never pay $279 for a HW wallet.  Jesus, I think I've owned cars that cost less than that.

I've visited Ledger's website and thought that it was just going to be a not so expensive new release. But yeah, that's a lot for pricing with a tag of $279 for this new release almost doubled with its older versions, it says free shipping.

But wise buyers will wait for those reviews from the early buyers and will ask what they think about it. Does the ledger's website says different shipping timeline? What's the earliest month it says it will be delivered based on your browsers? Mine says shipping will be around by April this year using a TOR browser.

What does the type of browser have to do with the date when the new devices will start shipping? Everyone is shown the same date, because it would be really idiotic to prioritize some regions of the world over others. In addition, considering the price and the fact that this is a completely new device that can have various vulnerabilities, I do not believe that there will be much interest in its purchase.

Even if it costs $100, I personally wouldn't buy it because I don't trust that company after they showed how they handle their clients' data and how they tried to marginalize the whole thing.

It's because some companies prioritizes what's close to them and such releases are being done there first before the customers that are offshore. That's what I'm thinking of but if on this case and they're not like that then that's good. All of the releases from any place on Earth that orders this stax is by April.

That's okay, you really don't have to buy it if you don't like the stuff and the company.

Even ignoring all the negative things that happened in the past, I don't see the point of such a device at such a price. I have their S and X models and personally I prefer that the HW is smaller and doesn't look like something like a smartphone or tablet. Maybe some people will be interested in such a concept because it will be easier for them to handle such a device - but older Ledger models have the possibility to be connected to smartphones anyway for those who want such an experience.

I have the S version and I'm good with its design as its handy. We've got the same thoughts and likes about an HW that's too big, I don't like that as well.

They're designing and probably still on the phase of monitoring if the sales will surge with the new design, yeah for sure there will be buyers and even those that have got the older versions are likely to purchase it because it's "new".

There is one nice review video released for Ledger Stax and I think it will clear things up for many people who are thinking of buying on of this devices.
I won't say any spoilers but I have to give credits to Adam Venture for spotting something I missed, how misleading ledger website can be sometimes.
Ledger Stax is using magnets, that can be used for connecting multiple devices, but they are saying that this somehow magically creates the sound of security, while it has no connection with security whatsoever.
Customers can get the wrong impression that Stax is somehow safer than other hardware wallets, when in reality it has the same tech like older models.

https://i.imgur.com/6J8BSyL.jpg
https://shop.ledger.com/products/ledger-stax
Review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUmNHHBHEP8

And speaking of magnets, I was wondering if they could damage some of the internal components in the long run ^{[I'm getting mixed results/answers from Google/Youtube and AFAIK, they (Ledger) haven't mentioned what kind of magnets are being used or how strong they are]}?

It's not the sound of security. It's the sound of bullshit and a marketing campaign. Not that I am interested in the device, but I will check out the video review just to see what he thinks of it.

It has to be a really strong magnet for it to cause any damage to the electronics inside the device. That's surely not the case here. I have a shaker that I sometimes take to the gym. It's equipped with two magnets so you can stick it to metal objects like the machines you train on. The other side of the shaker has a magnet that can hold your phone if you want. I have used it a few times and there were no problems at all.

I don't think this magnets are strong enough to damage anything, except maybe the brains of people who blindly trust this ledger propaganda.
Oh it must be great device that was designer by iOS designer and he added that special secure click sound feature ::)
Another stupid suggestion is that Stax is somehow family friendly device, so you would use this magnets to connect all family wallet, that one of the more stupid things I heard in a while.

Adam Venture also mentioned something that I thought about the first time I read about the features of the Ledger Stax. I am talking about the screen that can always stay on to display your NFT collection and the likes. Who keeps their hardware wallets out in the open to enjoy their NFTs? Is this HW supposed to be by your side when you are working so you can occasionally glance at your NFTs and be happy about having them? When you go out for dinner, are you going to put it on the table next to your plate to enjoy your digital monkey and banana collections? I also don't see a future where people go out clubbing with their Stax's in one hand and a drink in the other. Maybe Ledger thinks that will happen.

God damn I hate like 99% of YouTube. 2:20 in to the video before he actually said anything useful.

But he does (eventually) touch on what I've said already in this thread - the stack feature makes absolutely no sense. Including it as a second thought would be strange enough, but naming the device after it as a flagship feature is just completely bizarre. 99% of user will not own more than one device, especially not at $280. For the tiny minority of users who do own more than one device, encouraging them to stack them together and therefore store them in the exact same place is the opposite of security. Why would you want all your wallets in the same location, all subject to the same risk of loss or theft?

The fact that apparently an entire team of people at Ledger thought this was a good idea really makes me question what other stuff goes on behind the scenes there that we are unaware of.

Nobody is doing that, and ledger just pay their marketing team to invent bunch of fantasy features that sound cool but in reality they don't have any usability.
My joke suggestion is that shitconers can use separate Stax wallets for each of their shitcoin and nft junk they own.
And if people want to waste money on this thing, go ahead and stack them together with magic magnets  :D

Most of the ledger devs are clowns like their co-owner aka reddit mod btchip, and I am patiently waiting to hear first complains about battery and other hidden issues this device have.

Decrypt just released first in-depth review of new Ledger Stax hardware wallet that is showing most we saw so far, but I am not sure if this is paid or sponsored review.
Funny enough they didn't like ledger's E-ink display ^{(I like it btw)} because it can't be fully used to display NFT's in full color, and with right they say that some users don't like wireless protocol for communicating with other devices.
I expected to see more from this review, maybe comparison with older ledger wallets or showing other improvements or weak points, but whatever.
https://decrypt.co/122367/ledger-stax-hands-on-review-hardware-wallet-ipod-design-flourishes

Update on Stax from Ledger, looks like they are delayed due to the curved e-ink display. There is no new delivery date specified.

https://app.news.ledger.com/e/es?s=1909208&e=658949&elqTrackId=efd74c1a1b7a40299e524d6e5aa03bea&elq=dac020f6a554448cb87c74246b90cb5a&elqaid=674&elqat=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1hyxbZibaY

I had predicted this is what was causing issues. https://twitter.com/zachherbert/status/1682015265326874630

Ironically the curved e-ink is only there to show a wallet label on the side so you can "stack" multiple devices together. I don't understand why anyone would need more than one device?

Maybe they are also affected by ledger recover release news that resulted in decline in popularity and lower sales.
Stax maybe looks nice but I would never waste my money on this device, from inside they don't have anything special or new compared with their older models.
I don't know anyone who owns Stax wallet, and I never tested it so I can't say more about it.

You mean other than making more profit for ledger?  :D

Instead of releasing a practical thing with a regular screen without curves and also install a removable battery, they want to release this "misunderstanding". So they will not see profits, but rather will receive losses due to small sales and the need to spend their resources on supporting Ledger Stax on an equal footing with other models.

I don't understand why anyone would need this device, at all:


Have Ledger forgotten that passphrases exist? Or derivation paths? Or even just resetting the device and entering a different seed phrase? Why would anyone need multiple devices?

And the latest gimmick is a protective case? I thought the whole point of this stupid wallet was to stack them together and show a picture on the front and text up the side? Now they are telling you to slap these cheap cases on them to stop them stacking together and to hide the picture and text?

Remember this is a Tony Fadell design, so it has a lot of features that resemble Apple but do not make much sense for cryptocurrency at large. Minimalist interfaces do not really work in this industry.

However:


If you mean multiple wallets in the same HW, I fail to see how that's going to be useful since not only will it have the same effect of generating more addresses inside a single wallet, but there will also be more mnemonics to write down.

There's the beauty of it! You don't need to write down any mnemonics! For the low price of only $10 per month per mnemonic, Ledger will store them all for you! Such secure! Many value! Wow! ::)

There is an argument to be made to have a second hardware device which you can use for the emergency recovery of your funds should your primary device be lost, stolen, or damaged, so you don't need to risk importing your seed phrase in to a hot wallet. But if you can always just buy a new device should this happen and you are willing to wait a few days. And if you do need an emergency back up device on hand, then you can pick up something cheap like a SeedSigner and not splash out $300 for this NFT picture frame.

If the given wallet is BIP85 compliant then there is no need to write down  all bunch of the child mnemonics. All of them are derived from a single master SEED  which  makes mnemonic management to be very easy matter. For instance in the case of HW backup one has to write down solely the master mnemonic and be safe forever. BTW, Passport 2  has such functionality as generate multiple  child SEEDs  from master mnemonic while Ledger Stax has not.

I don't like BIP85 personally, because it overloads the "coin" part of the deviation number. Coin is supposed to be used (per BIP44) to identify the coin network. As someone who's making a wallet library, this means that I won't be able to use BIP85 and multi-coins at the same time.

Why didn't they just use "account", which is also hardened? Is that not it's intended purpose?

They don't but somehow, they've managed to master the art of convincing their customer of the need to purchase more than a single device of the same kind ^{[refer to some of the comments in their subreddit]}.
^{- They seem to enjoy taking advantage of their ignorant users (SMH)!}

• Quote
  We planned to ship Ledger Stax earlier this year, but it has taken our display provider months more than they originally expected to ensure every screen matches our quality standards.
  Wait, what?! I didn't know they had any :D
  
  
• Quote
  Often when v1.0 products come to market, they're really v0.9. This delay with the screen has allowed us to deliver a product in Ledger Stax that is truly beyond v1.0 at launch.
  IIRC, there was also a delay with Nano S Plus, but there were still a lot of issues at its launch!