Bitcoin Forum

Hi folks, I was looking around into Mixers/Tumblers the other day and stumbled upon some very good research like the zk-SNARKs and TumbleBit. Two technologies that 'obfuscate' transactions, making blockchain analysis a guess fest.

My interest in the mixer is in Bitcoin forks and nothing fancy like Ethereum (which has zero-trust mixers based on zk-SNARKs like Tornado cash AFAIK) but when looking into existing online mixers they all appear to be 'send me coins and I promise I will send them back' kind of vibe.

Aren't there any zero-trust mixers for Bitcoin or Bitcoin forks? or have I been looking in the wrong direction?

Also, could multi-sig transactions with two or more participants (using a pre-defined amount of assets, ideally inputs are dividable by each other, eg, a multitude of 0.001) be used to obscure transaction histories?

Another way would be to use trustless bridges, bridge to monero and out to another chain.
Mixers will keep getting handicapped by governments and regulations.

Coin mixing services allows you to make transactions anonymously, but bad actors have keep using this services for criminal activities, that's why the government are going after any mixer services in crypto space, I would refer to use Bitcoin lightning network instead, it's a safer option as this ensures privacy for any Bitcoin transactions.

From this, there are many scam mixers, tumblers in history. You send them coins and never receive any coin back.

Another serious issue with third-party mixer/ tumbler is you never know what they do with user data including yours. They can write in their service terms that they will delete all log data after each session like 7 days but in reality, they might not fulfill it for their users.

Recently when Chipmixer was sezied, from report we can see there are 7TB data gotten by authorities.

If zero trust is your standard, I guess you cannot find one exactly. I am not familiar with each and every Bitcoin or Bitcoin fork mixers, but there are only a handful of them. And with the loss of Chipmixer, I guess what's left are a handful of smaller actors. But it can't be zero trust when you are required to send them your coins in the first place. And as mentioned by hd49728, you will also trust that these tumblers would be true to their words that logs will be deleted.

I wouldn't recommend suspicious mixers since it is just so easy to scam people on this kind of website, when you send your funds to them they just don't send it back to you. There are actually tons of scam mixer websites so just avoid them completely :Scams Bitcoin Mixers List and Services closed (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5381839.0).

There are also chances to get involved in some illegal transactions because the mixer was used to not detect its history so it was used in a lot of them so it's always a big risk especially if you're going to send big funds. So I suggest just using mixers that the forum trusts so you would actually get scammed since there are members that already tried using that mixer, But still, be careful recently Chipmixer is one of the most popular mixers here in the forum was shut down and probably related to the illegal transaction so I guess just do a lot of research first before doing it as long as you finished your transaction it doesn't really matter.

There are various zero-trust mixers for Bitcoin and Bitcoin forks available, but they are not as extensively utilized as centralized mixers that rely on third-party trust. JoinMarket, which employs a CoinJoin mechanism to allow several users to mix their transactions together in a way that obscures their history, is one example of a zero-trust mixer for Bitcoin. Wasabi Wallet, for example, employs a Chaumian CoinJoin approach that similarly obscures transaction history.

Multi-signature transactions can give an extra degree of protection to transactions, however they do not always obfuscate transaction histories. Multi-sig transactions require many parties to sign off on a transaction, which can assist to avoid fraud and enhance security. Yet, because the transaction history remains public on the blockchain, it does not obfuscate transaction histories in the same manner as zero-trust mixers do.

I think zero trust mixers aren't anonymous enough because it just increase your privacy, make it harder to track where is the original source of your coins. Unfortunately the best Bitcoin mixer has been seized, now there are still many mixers you can use but each mixer work in a different way 2023 List Bitcoin Mixers Bitcoin Tumblers Websites. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2827109.msg28964833)

I'm not quite understand enough about multi-sig transactions, but my assumption it's still not enough to obscure your original transaction histories.

Seems what you found is a centralized mixer. The recent prominent one goes bust, but there are other options. You can take a look at other services that are advertised here, but just do in mind it is still a centralized option.

If you want to find a solution without centralized intermediaries or any trust, yes, there are a few options. In Bitcoin, there is a thing called Coinjoin, and various implementation of Coinjoin also exists, like Joinmarket, Wasabi, and Whirlpool. Each platform has its own advantages and disadvantages. Specifically about Wasabi, note that it recently implement shady features that you should take a look at before you want to use it.

There are lots of risks involved with using mixers/tumblers. Firstly I just hope that you’re using them for privacy & not for crime or some other kind of illicit activity.

There are many risks as I said, some are that you might end up receiving dirty coins that have been used in crime, then when you deposit them to an exchange to sell they get confiscated/seized.

Another risk is like with the well known mixer Chipmixer, it gets seized just as you are mixing coins. You could lose your money. Basically unless you are very serious about privacy I advise you not to use them.

With the recent news about Chipmixer, there will be some doubts of using them because you'll never know if the next mixer that you'll use is gonna be freezed and seized by the government.

There are some competitors that have existed and you can try them and they're running signature campaigns, I think they're 3 of them.

Apart from that, you can use some anonymous coins like Monero if you're really for the privacy.

The purpose of mixers is to eliminate the existing traces that linked with bitcoins in many different ways, well its not 100% privacy but increased privacy like something is better than nothing. Recently one of the biggest bitcoin mixture were seized and the reputation of altcoin mixing services are that familiar so the best possible way to to mix couns by trading it for other cryptocurrency and convert it back if you want on platforms where KYC is not mandatory.

Mixers or tumblers are services that allow users to mix their Bitcoin transactions with those of other users to obscure the source and destination of funds. While mixers can be useful for maintaining privacy, there are also some potential dangers associated with using them. There are several services that claim to offer this level of security, but it is important to be careful of any claim that the mixer is completely secure or anonymous and at worst is blacklisted by exchanges and other service providers.

Another risk is that by using a mixer for privacy purposes you end up sending your coins to a website that is a trap created by governments, so not only you get no additional privacy at all but now you are on their list as a suspicious person for using those services.

And if at some point your identity is linked to those coins then you could receive a visit by the security agency of your country and you will have to give a lot of explanations about what you are doing online.

The only "zero trust" mixers I know of are those built into the Wasabi and Samourai wallets (in the case of Bitcoin). There was something called "Tumblebit", but it seems development stopped for a while ago (also a Bitcoin mixer). For ETH, there's a "Zero-Knowledge" mixer called Tornado.Cash but it got sanctioned by the US. Some developers forked Tornado.Cash and made a new mixer called "Privacy Pools", but I'm yet to see how long will it last.

I guess the risk of using a mixer is being "flagged" by the government as they believe you're doing something suspicious such as money laundering or tax evasion. With governments hunting down mixers lately, I'd steer clear from them just to avoid bringing unwanted attention. Hopefully, privacy will survive as defenders oppose governments' actions in the long run. Who knows if they'll give up in their efforts to eliminate privacy in crypto for good? Just my thoughts ;D

Any person who have use mixer or tumbler know if centralized exchange, bank, and government are blacklist mixing usage because it can be used to money laundering. This is we have an option to use decentralized exchange and cash out without bank, but it's hard since you need to find someone who's willing to trade with you. Mixing isn't make your transaction secure, but it just to increase your privacy into 100% anonymity.

I do understand the whole concept of mixers and I have always wondered why that. If there is nothing to hide, why will I go through the risk of losing my Bitcoin if I might not get them back? Coming back to your statement, you do understand that has been the problem with Bitcoin transactions or Crypto in general, how many places can we spend crypto for now or how easy can you find someone that you can trade in exchange for goods/services? even after using the DEX, you still need the bank at least for now may be it might change in the future.

The point is, looking at the standards that people set here, I realize that the risk or benefit depends on how we do it.
There are many different use cases here, and it's not made to serve any particular purpose, some really useful and some shady.
I have heard about the ChipMixer crypto mixer crash, but I only see one-sided information that is alleging money laundering, I don't deny it but looking at the way they charged the whole thing made me laugh.

I guess that there isn't really any "danger" if you are a regular person, it doesn't matter to me nor anyone of you.

However, the bad people in the world, cartels, terrorists, mafia, whatever you can think of could start using it, or maybe some of them already uses it and that's a danger to the government because it's their job to stop them. That doesn't change anything in my life, I still live the same exact life as I was living, but it makes the job of government a bit harder because now it's not cash they need to follow, it's bitcoin and other crypto, and if they are using mixers then it is hard to follow that cash. Hence, it's a risky business.

Top mixer are being sued by the government now because of fraud issue so it will be hard to spot a good one if you still concern about your privacy. Dealing to someone is not safe as well, you can’t fully trust their statement alone, it should be based on their trust rating as well. If your purpose is privacy, then try to use other platform who offers this kind of services, just try it for a few bucks and see how it works.

The Chipmixer issue really is a big blow to the crypto mixer business.
They are one of the top and reputable mixers in this community.
So right now, we don't know how safe and secure they are once the government seized their operations.
You can try other mixers, but as you said, use small funds if it will go thru smoothly.
However, if you don't need this service, why not just use the regular trading platforms for your crypto needs?
Ask yourself, how badly you need the 100% anonymity that you will go thru via mixer services?

Using mixers is a gamble these days. You'll never know when governments will shut them down, or if you could get flagged by the authorities after using them. With crypto being heavily-scrutinized by regulators, we should expect mixers to disappear in the future (centralized ones, of course). Unless crypto/privacy advocates fight for privacy/anonymity, mixers won't be going anywhere soon.

I'd "stick" with non-custodial mixers just to be safe. Some BTC wallets already have built-in mixing features (eg: Wasabi and Samourai) so there should be nothing to worry about. Who knows if governments give up in their efforts to try to take down crypto/Blockchain tech for good? Just my opinion :)

I ended up doing some research of my own and simply made my own 'coinjoin' implementation for Litecoin. I started it pretty basic by having the host create the unsigned (final) transaction for all participants. The host negotiates with all participants and the conclusion of that agreement results in an unsigned transaction. From there, the transaction is passed to the first participant who signs it and passes it back to me so I can forward it to the next participant until every signature was added.

I looked into the Wasabi wallet but none of them are supporting hardware wallets. That kinda makes sense as going back and forth with signing (especially with big transactions) can be an annoying task if done manually.

Lastly, how come all online 'mixers' and other bogus is straight-up a scam? Do people really trust these time-based 'mixers'? To me, they seem to either be a honeypot,  a scam, or a scan that hasn't happened yet (exit scam).

While there are risks associated with a mixer/tumbler service there is another side that we should look at as well e.g. in terms of Enhanced Privacy and Security, a mixer/tumbler can provide increased privacy and security for authorized users. Cryptocurrency transactions are often recorded on public blockchains, making them potentially traceable to anyone. Mixer/tumbler services allow users to obfuscate their transaction history, protect their privacy and prevent targeted surveillance or tracking. This can be especially beneficial for individuals in countries with oppressive regimes or those who are concerned about their financial privacy.

Second is Utilization for Legitimate Purposes, The mixer/tumbler may also be used for lawful purposes. For example, individuals may wish to separate their personal transactions from business-related transactions for accounting purposes. meaning a mixer/tumbler service can help achieve this separation, ensuring accurate financial records without compromising privacy. In addition, they can be used to improve fungibility, where all units of a cryptocurrency become indistinguishable, making the currency more exchangeable and facilitating wider adoption.

Interesting. If you decide to publish the source code or even launch the privacy solution for public use, please let me know. I'd suggest you don't reveal your true identity, or governments will be on your tail. You can see how one of Tornado.Cash's developers was arrested because of his involvement in the project. If he had used a pseudonym, it would've been harder (or almost impossible) to find him. These days mixers are getting scrutinized by mainstream governments, so we should not let our guard down.

I believe all centralized mixers will fail because it's easy enough to shut them down by the authorities. But I cannot say the same about non-custodial or decentralized mixers and/or privacy techniques. Let's see how everything will unfold as crypto/Blockchain tech becomes more popular worldwide. :)

No thanks, could have asked ChatGPT myself


Obviously, I wrote mine for the sake of educational purposes only as I was researching the possibility of the Bitcoin/Litecoin blockchain, and how I can take advantage to secure my spending. I wrote my journey at https://ferib.dev/blog.php?l=post/Bringing_Obfuscation_to_the_Bitcoin_Blockchain, it's not perfect and I'm looking to improve.

For bitcoin mixing services, the biggest capital is their reputation on the network, which is earned over the years. Therefore, popular mixers are unlikely to steal small amounts of bitcoins. However, we must not forget that all mixers are completely anonymous - this is the basis of their existence. After all, any owner of the mixer, if he is deanonymized, will be instantly arrested and charged with money laundering, terrorist financing, etc., which will provide him with more than a comfortable term in any country. And this means that by sending bitcoins to the mixer, you completely trust it - the only guarantee to get your bitcoins back is the obligations of the owner of the service. That is, you act solely at your own peril and risk, and this must be remembered.

Zero-trust mixers for Bitcoin or its forks are not as prevalent as they are for Ethereum. While there may be online mixers available, they often involve trusting a third party. However, exploring alternative methods such as multi-signature transactions with divisible inputs could potentially contribute to obfuscating transaction histories. It's essential to research and assess the security and trustworthiness of any mixer or method before utilizing it for privacy purposes.

There's always a thing someone need to hide, will you feel safe if you share your total assets, where the assets you have, how to access it and your home location to stranger like me?

Yeah there's a chance you can get scammed trading via P2P either in site or directly trade, this is why you need to trust the person you wanted to trade if you trade big amount money. Well there are many ways to receive your money, not only through bank account.

Bitcoin does have zero trust mixers. The Samourai wallet has the "Whirlpool" privacy technique to obfuscate BTC transactions. There's also the Wasabi wallet which uses some sort of "CoinJoin" privacy technique. It's just there are not many options available for Bitcoin than it's the case with Ethereum these days. I wonder why developers aren't that interested in making other non-custodial mixers for BTC? It's likely they're afraid of getting caught and penalized by the government. The same can be said about ETH, although the smart contracts platform isn't as popular as Bitcoin is.

One needs to be aware of the dangers of using a mixer, especially when there's a huge crackdown against anything privacy-oriented in the crypto/Blockchain space. You could easily get flagged by the government, even when you're not doing anything wrong. Not even converting your BTC to XMR would do any help. The only way to avoid suspicion is to cash out your BTC to Fiat through a P2P exchange (no KYC), and then use the cash to buy Monero (XMR). I think all centralized mixers will ultimately die, leaving us with non-custodial (decentralized) mixers as our only option. I'm fine with that as long decentralization wins in the long run. Just my thoughts ;D