Title: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: albert0bsd on September 06, 2023, 12:38:58 AM I just checked in a few boards and i don’t see a topic like this, so i am going to start it.
I want to create a list of the current problems of the bitcoin community and open a discussion for possible ways to help to solve it or atleast try it. Please feel free to correct me if i am wrong or suggest some solutions if don’t mention it, the list of issues is open to new items List of issues
How to address each of the previous issues The current network congestion caused by the spam/dust transactions of Ordinals. If you are a regular user of bitcoin
If you are a business interested in to accept bitcoin transacctions
If you are developer of some exchange or entity that perform bitcoin transactions
If you are miner
I am going to try to make some videos trying to educate to the final users about this topics, also i want to redact some kind of open letter to the miners. Wha do you think about this, i want to read you. Regards! Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: Darker45 on September 06, 2023, 02:11:25 AM Is there only one issue that the Bitcoin community is facing right now? Is the issue about the Ordinals still the hottest issue in the community today?
Anyway, using a native SegWit address should also be an option for a regular Bitcoin user. I also didn't see Lightning. That's a much cheaper and faster alternative, albeit off-chain. Also, checking the mempool before making a transaction helps. Although there are currently a total of more than 600,000 unconfirmed transactions, you can still pay 16 Sats/vB. Furthermore, it is best to choose a wallet that allows you to personalize your fees. You can save a lot with it. Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: albert0bsd on September 06, 2023, 02:39:53 AM Is there only one issue that the Bitcoin community is facing right now? No it is not the only issue, that is why I add that the list is open to add more. ,t is best to choose a wallet that allows you to personalize your fees. You can save a lot with it. Nice options, I think that it was implicit about a good wallet, but if is not clear I am going to edit the list to include them explicitly Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: Kakmakr on September 06, 2023, 05:39:58 AM I think developers should find side-chain solutions for Ordinals to be used just for that.... it will reduce "dust" on-chain and it can alleviate congestion in the Mempool. :P
They developed the "Lightning Network" for faster and cheaper micro transactions, so why can they not develop something just for Ordinals to run on? They also found better solutions for "On-chain" casinos like SatoshiDice to replace services that congested the Blockchain with "dust" transactions. (find better and more efficient ways to do something) Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: Despairo on September 06, 2023, 07:30:09 AM If you are a business interested in to accept bitcoin transacctions If you ask a business to accept lightning network, you must ask a regular user of Bitcoin to use lightning network too because it's pointless if only the seller is accept it when most of customers aren't.
Quote If you are miner I don't think the miner will consider this because they will see on the different perspective.
High fee is good for them while low fee is bad for them regardless it's BRC-20 transaction or Bitcoin transaction. Network congestion problem isn't about the miner isn't prioritizing the Bitcoin transaction, but the main problem is those people who're transact BRC-20 tokens. If they're educated, they will not care about BRC-20 tokens aka shitcoins. Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: retreat on September 06, 2023, 07:48:34 AM I think developers should find side-chain solutions for Ordinals to be used just for that.... it will reduce "dust" on-chain and it can alleviate congestion in the Mempool. :P They developed the "Lightning Network" for faster and cheaper micro transactions, so why can they not develop something just for Ordinals to run on? -snip- That's right, they have various solutions to problems on the Bitcoin network but they don't seem to really try to solve this congestion problem caused by Ordinal. It's like the Bitcoin devs don't want the Ordinal community to leave the network because their transactions cause fees to go up which will benefit the miners on the network. And maybe this is the reason why until now they haven't solved this Ordinal problem. Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: BlackBoss_ on September 06, 2023, 08:05:42 AM If a wallet has dust attacks and dust UTXOs, you will need to use Freeze an address feature in your wallet.
Dust Attack, what it is, why it is dangerous and how to prevent falling to it (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5175238.0) In Electrum wallet, click on that address, right click and choose Freeze. Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: Yamane_Keto on September 06, 2023, 10:06:03 AM How will these tips help in solving the problem of spam/dust transactions of Ordinals?
It can be said that your advice is good for those who want to reduce fees, but it will not solve the problem of Ordinals. To reduce fees, I can add tips such as:
If you are miner
This is definitely something that no mining pool will do. Trying to refuse to accept transactions or allocate block space to transactions and give priority to them apart from fees is not the correct approach. Dust transactions are valid transactions and can be bypassed by preventing nodes from broadcasting transactions with less than 5-7 sat/vByte Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: albert0bsd on September 06, 2023, 11:01:04 AM I think developers should find side-chain solutions for Ordinals to be used just for that.... it will reduce "dust" on-chain and it can alleviate congestion in the Mempool. :P Totally agree with that. Ordinal problems can be solved if they move to anoter chain or simplely shut it down that shit I don't think the miner will consider this because they will see on the different perspective. High fee is good for them while low fee is bad for them regardless it's BRC-20 transaction or Bitcoin transaction. Yes that is why i add "a little" even if they allow 1% of the block for non dust TX, they aren't lose 1% of their profits.. (I want to make a calculation about this) How will these tips help in solving the problem of spam/dust transactions of Ordinals? It can be said that your advice is good for those who want to reduce fees, but it will not solve the problem of Ordinals. From my point of view (that it may be wrong) the main idea of use segwit addresses or Taproot address is that those Transactions need less space on the block, for example so if we can change 100 UXTOs P2PKH by 150 UXTOS P2TR or P2WPKH then i think that "it is something" good. My bet it is on the long run, a faster adoption of those Address may lead in more transactions included in a single block and yes i know that this don't have anything with the fee sat/vB that people opt to pay in their transacctions, but atleast i think that having more educated people can raise more awareness about how to handle this situtation IMHO Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: Doan9269 on September 06, 2023, 11:30:01 AM The current network congestion caused by the spam/dust transactions of Ordinals. I don't know if this still exist as a problem or challenge facing the bitcoin community any longer ever since it was addressed and talked about by many, transaction fee is no more a contention for us to make a bitcoin transaction, you have many alternatives to make you avoid any exorbitant hike on transaction fee, whereas ordinals are no more that affecting the network with high transaction fee, you can also customize your fee, or look at the mempool for when it's less congested before making your transactions with lower fee rate. Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: Blitzboy on September 06, 2023, 12:00:20 PM a gaping hole exists: mass education. How to drill down these dense topics to the average user? They often possess limited technical know-how; a comprehensive, user-friendly knowledge base, universally accessible, solves this.
Secondly, community consensus is invaluable in streamlining transaction priorities. Should developers create a decentralized voting system embedded into the blockchain? Users, miners, and businesses alike could upvote/downvote types of transactions. Decentralized democracy at play. And we'll need incentives to participate in such systems; micro-rewards, perhaps? You touched upon miner ethics. The power dynamics between miners and users are stark. A decentralized “code of conduct” ratified by the community would hold them accountable. This isnt merely theoretical; its a systemic overhaul that would sustain Bitcoin's core philosophy. Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: ABCbits on September 06, 2023, 12:26:16 PM I think developers should find side-chain solutions for Ordinals to be used just for that.... it will reduce "dust" on-chain and it can alleviate congestion in the Mempool. :P Such solution already exist even before Ordinal gaining popularity. For starter, take a look at Liquid and RSK. But sidechain is generally unpopular, even among Bitcoin enthusiast. Quote If you are miner I don't think the miner will consider this because they will see on the different perspective.
ViaBTC actually does that[1] with some limitation. Although it's possible their main goal isn't community service, but rather promote their pool and offer their paid service. [1] https://www.viabtc.com/tools/txaccelerator/ (https://www.viabtc.com/tools/txaccelerator/) Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: Jating on September 06, 2023, 12:48:43 PM The current network congestion caused by the spam/dust transactions of Ordinals. I don't know if this still exist as a problem or challenge facing the bitcoin community any longer ever since it was addressed and talked about by many, transaction fee is no more a contention for us to make a bitcoin transaction, you have many alternatives to make you avoid any exorbitant hike on transaction fee, whereas ordinals are no more that affecting the network with high transaction fee, you can also customize your fee, or look at the mempool for when it's less congested before making your transactions with lower fee rate. Few months back though, it was a huge issues, the network congestion was due to the BRC20 and Ordinals and it really took bitcoin enthusiast by storm. But lately though, at least at this point is has slow down a bit. But there is occasional spikes in the network, and just like now, I see that the fastest is around 20 sat/vB which I think it's too expensive for us average Joe and all we can do is wait for the mempool to at least clear in the next hour and see how the fees will be. Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: Lucius on September 06, 2023, 01:16:12 PM ~snip~ But there is occasional spikes in the network, and just like now, I see that the fastest is around 20 sat/vB which I think it's too expensive for us average Joe and all we can do is wait for the mempool to at least clear in the next hour and see how the fees will be. So you really think $0.65 is too expensive for the average Joe? The one who cannot pay that amount for the transaction has much bigger problems than the current situation with mempool... As for ordinals and their nonsense, there are several threads discussing this so I really don't see the point in making this another one. Besides, none of those who can do something concrete will lift a finger to change something about how someone feels about blockchain being used in this way. Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: albert0bsd on September 06, 2023, 01:20:01 PM https://www.viabtc.com/tools/txaccelerator/ (https://www.viabtc.com/tools/txaccelerator/) Nice to know @ETFbitcoin always good post with you. I just checked the lastest blocks of that minner (https://mempool.space/mining/pool/viabtc) and I see that it is true, there are some block with a few ADDED transaction with low fee like 3 or 5 sat/vB. Regardless that they page advertise some 10000 sat/kB ~10 sat/vB Quote Paste or enter the TXID you want to accelerate. The volume of a single transaction must be ≤0.5 KB, and the transaction fee rate should be ≥ 0.0001 BTC/KB. I am going to test it today So you really think $0.65 is too expensive for the average Joe? The one who cannot pay that amount for the transaction has much bigger problems than the current situation with mempool... Agree with you, that depends of course of the amount that are you going to move, if you are moving 1 BTC you really don't worry about the fee to pay for it, but if you are going to move only 30K sat those fees may worry you, anyway i recomend to anyone that is moving smalls sats amounts just wait for lower fee to consolidate their uxtos. there are several threads discussing this so I really don't see the point in making this another one. The title of the topic said "Summarizing issues..." none of those who can do something concrete will lift a finger to change something about how someone feels about blockchain being used in this way. Thay may be true, but one of my sugestion is to educate people: but atleast i think that having more educated people can raise more awareness about how to handle this situtation IMHO Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: dothebeats on September 06, 2023, 01:39:07 PM This is actually a very helpful post. Most of the time, there are a bunch of us who lose track of the current events and issues surrounding the Bitcoin community, especially those who are only treating Bitcoin as a side investment, hence having this post we will be able to just go here and update ourselves. Knowing the current issues and possible ways to address them are also a good way for beginners to get themselves familiar with and ready as they learn more about Bitcoin, it also shows them the reality of the Bitcoin community, that it is not perfect and there are some risks to deal with. Hence, I will surely save this post and get back to this as more updates are made, especially when I feel like I am losing track of the things happening in the community. And perhaps I'll add some of my own ways in addressing these issues.
Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: franky1 on September 06, 2023, 05:20:35 PM So you really think $0.65 is too expensive for the average Joe? The one who cannot pay that amount for the transaction has much bigger problems than the current situation with mempool... average joe is not part of the the hundreds of millions of "first worlders" but the multi billion populous of "3rd worlders" you might want to check minimum wage amounts of the average joe after all bitcoin was made for the unbanked not the elitists Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: Faisal2202 on September 06, 2023, 07:29:13 PM You have started a good topic here and this is my 3rd or 4th topic related to the issue of ordinals and at current state I am started to bit confused as things are acting normal but the only difference might be one facing is they have to pay more TX fee to increase the priority level so their transaction could not be delayed. Well ordinals are not considered as good for BTC blockchain while they are tagged as spam by stompix and DDmr said miner are trying to manipulate the transaction fee by making small transactions just to fill up the block so that tx makers have to select more higher fee using RBF so that there transaction could get more priority. (Not mentioning the links to there threads but you can find them in my recent replies).
And one more thing, which would help a lot, you can add links to the useful threads which actually are tutorials of how to reduce or pay lesser fee using wallets or any platform. I found this one about the use of electrum to pay lesser fee which is a good one actually I was trying to find another thread but did not found it so instead of that this might work too. i know this is not enough but still as I said it would ve better in my thoughts otherwise it is ignorable. Ps: you said you did not found any topic related ro this issue and now I think i am reading your reply late while I already read 3 topics on this issue before reading yours. Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: ZAINmalik75 on September 06, 2023, 07:49:49 PM This is actually a very helpful post. Most of the time, there are a bunch of us who lose track of the current events and issues surrounding the Bitcoin community, especially those who are only treating Bitcoin as a side investment, hence having this post we will be able to just go here and update ourselves. Knowing the current issues and possible ways to address them are also a good way for beginners to get themselves familiar with and ready as they learn more about Bitcoin, it also shows them the reality of the Bitcoin community, that it is not perfect and there are some risks to deal with. Hence, I will surely save this post and get back to this as more updates are made, especially when I feel like I am losing track of the things happening in the community. And perhaps I'll add some of my own ways in addressing these issues. Actually this is not something new instead it was a issue initiated way before when the Ordinals came into being. This is just starting to cause problems again. To be honest I was now aware of the whole story before but after reading some topics related to this issue I also aware of this know and you are right just like you I also cane to know about such issue due to this forum as members here are really active. And they all are sharing insightful ideas too, to solve the problems. Currently, the only issue to BTC blockchain is due to Ordinals but there are many other issues which BTC needs to solve them. How are we going to beat the reptilians when monkeys are kicking our ass? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5465874.msg62804181#msg62804181) You should read this new thread and also read some replies to get better ideas about which issues BTC is facing and which issues need instant solutions. The solutions which OP had mentioned in his post, are definitely not enough but that's why he has said I want to read you. As he might not bw a BTC developer neither I am but in my opinion these issues can only be solved by the developers while people like us who are after BTC and are miners too then they might try to manipulate the network with dust transactions. This needs to be stopped otherwise it might create problems for the whole network in future. Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: serveria.com on September 06, 2023, 08:01:07 PM Guys, it seems to me you're focusing on ordinals too much. This thread is named "Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them", OP just mentioned ordinals as an example of a Bitcoin issue. Remember that bad publicity is still publicity so you're in fact promoting the damn thing. Just let it die natural death. 8)
Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: albert0bsd on September 06, 2023, 10:01:33 PM Ps: you said you did not found any topic related ro this issue and now I think i am reading your reply late while I already read 3 topics on this issue before reading yours. The thing that i didn't found was a topic about the current problems, issues or things that may affect to the bitcoin ecosystem. Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: The Sceptical Chymist on September 07, 2023, 05:43:17 AM OP, I very much appreciate your post--you didn't explain a lot of things in detail, but that's OK because I came away from reading it with a lot of questions about terms I've seen in various places but never bothered to learn the meaning of. That's me being relatively stupid and incredibly lazy (typical me).
But god I love legacy addresses. Am I the only one? I can't be, even though I do understand some of the drawbacks. after all bitcoin was made for the unbanked not the elitists I never read bitcoin's whitepaper or even what was written way back when about its "true purpose" but I'd agree that the unbanked population is who it should be for. Unfortunately, here we are in 2023 and it hasn't really turned out that way.Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: SamReomo on September 07, 2023, 06:26:49 AM average joe is not part of the the hundreds of millions of "first worlders" but the multi billion populous of "3rd worlders" you might want to check minimum wage amounts of the average joe after all bitcoin was made for the unbanked not the elitists Well, I agree with you the ones in third world countries can be considered as average joe because they hardly earn enough to fulfill their basic needs. However, I still think that Bitcoin wasn't made for the unbanked ones only but it was made for everyone. The banked users and the unbanked users both can benefit from Bitcoin, and I must say that elitists are also into Bitcoin and we can't ignore that thing. The Bitcoin was mostly created to solve the issue that users faced with regulatory authorities, but now most people consider it as an asset. @OP I believe that the highest priority issue with Bitcoin blockchain is network congestion and whether it happens due to Ordinals or due to something else but it's really the highest priority problem for the whole community. The network congestion increases the transaction fees to very high levels and many people get scared due to high transaction fees. The most important issue to address should be the network congestion issue and we must have to find a better solution in order to avoid that issue. We are mostly trapped because of the limited size of Bitcoin blockchain block size of just 1 MB and that's why we can't really do anything to solve the issue right now, but who knows that there may be a better solution for the issue in future. Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: serveria.com on September 07, 2023, 07:16:29 AM OP, I very much appreciate your post--you didn't explain a lot of things in detail, but that's OK because I came away from reading it with a lot of questions about terms I've seen in various places but never bothered to learn the meaning of. That's me being relatively stupid and incredibly lazy (typical me). But god I love legacy addresses. Am I the only one? I can't be, even though I do understand some of the drawbacks. after all bitcoin was made for the unbanked not the elitists I never read bitcoin's whitepaper or even what was written way back when about its "true purpose" but I'd agree that the unbanked population is who it should be for. Unfortunately, here we are in 2023 and it hasn't really turned out that way.The real issue that they are themselves to blame for this situation in a way. But perhaps many of them don't need a bank account? If you are facing issues like hunger, thirst, homelessness, poverty, war, abuse, extreme weather etc lack of bank account is not your #1 priority in life. :o Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: Lucius on September 07, 2023, 10:24:43 AM So you really think $0.65 is too expensive for the average Joe? The one who cannot pay that amount for the transaction has much bigger problems than the current situation with mempool... average joe is not part of the the hundreds of millions of "first worlders" but the multi billion populous of "3rd worlders" you might want to check minimum wage amounts of the average joe after all bitcoin was made for the unbanked not the elitists I thought that Bitcoin was made for everyone who wants an alternative to the existing system, but it is not Satoshi's fault that those who are unbanked are still mostly the same ones who do not have access to the Internet, and therefore neither to Bitcoin. Regarding the minimum wages, I know people work for only a few $ in Venezuela, or a few tens of $ in some African countries, but they can't even afford BTC, so I wonder if it makes a difference if the fee is $0.10 or $0.60? Title: Re: Summarizing issues in the bitcoin community and how to address them. Post by: albert0bsd on September 10, 2023, 08:46:20 PM More of 80% of the pending transacction on mempool are dust.
Well that is actually anoying i did a small sampling from the mempool pending TXs and I count only those with one input, one ouput and output value less than 600 satoshis, and more of the 80% of those match with this criteria. Here is the code that i used was: Code: import sys Output: Code: albertobsd:~$ python3 count_dust_tx_mempool.py According to the Mempool.space API documentation: Quote GET Mempool Transaction IDs Get the full list of txids in the mempool as an array. The order of the txids is arbitrary and does not match bitcoind. I use random choice in python Quote The choice() method returns a randomly selected element from the specified sequence. So in general this problem may get worse in the future if the ordinals don't stop their SPAM |