Bitcoin Forum

So I've been playing a little bit of roulette on a couple different gambling sites online.  I've been throwing a few satoshis on playing Poker (Texas Hold'Em) here and there as well.  Mainly focusing on Roulette, how can I be sure that the site is provably fair? I've heard this term used before by gambling buddies on here, but I've near really learned how you can know or find out if a sites games are "provably fair"?

AFAIK it's about checking the Server's seed and the client's seed, the hashes are the ones you only need to scan on the provably fair verifier as there are lots of verifiers which each casinos have one https://www.provablyfair.me/verify-bets/

Looks like they have it ready for those who suspiciously think they are cheating, it's still common that is why some gamblers are randomly verifying.

Here is one example to look at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5227525.0

Contributing to what @cabron has said, I will suggest that you don't gamble randomly on any kinds of casino you come across. Choose a reputable casinos that is popularly used by many gamblers and at least you will have that believe that you are not being cheated.

Card games would be a bit more complicated to get a provably fair algorithm behind them but it's possible at least for the single player ones. I've seen on stake.com video blackjack have a provably fair algorithm for instance. In the website there's explanation on how it works. In theory, you could set up some hashing software on your computer to check the provable fairness more trustlessly.

But actually most people will just stick to third party websites like https://www.btcgosu.com/tools/provably-fair-verifier/ and dicesites.com which have their own verifiers. But I am just not sure if there's a verifier for poker games. Does the casino you play at provide more information on how to verify these bets?

What is provably fair gambling? Provably fair gambling uses cryptography to ensure the fairness and randomness of game outcomes. This means that players can verify that the games haven't been rigged by the casino. Here's the basic process:
1.Seeds: The casino provides a "server seed" and the player generates their own "client seed." Both are used to generate a random outcome.
2.Hashing: Both seeds and other game data are combined and hashed (converted to a unique string) using a cryptographic function. This hash is publicly verifiable.
3.Outcome and verification: The game outcome is determined based on the combined seeds. Players can then verify the fairness by recalculating the hash with their client seed and the server seed provided by the casino. If the hashes match, the game was fair.
P.S. Hope I was able to be of some help to you)

Are you asking how do you know if the casino isn't cheating you? Like giving you salted seeds? Or are you wondering how to check a games results? If it's the latter there are verifiers out there, 1 was provided for you. If you are asking the 1st question, I would like to know that myself.

I think there are site that has been rated by some users here so when choosing site you can look at the overall rated threads to know which one to chose to play your game. I am more conversant with sport betting but that doesn't mean I regularly gamble since I am trying as much as possible to limit myself from becoming a gambling addicts.

You make a fair point.  Simply slapping provably fair on a gambling website does not automatically make their games verified.  Shady sites love throwing around terms like "provably fair" to lure players in, but it's often just marketing fluff.  A truly provably fair site must openly provide the methods and math they use to prove fairness to players.  Users should get access to ways of checking each game is legit. 

Furthermore, nothing wrong with asking questions and getting opinons elsewhere neither before playing or depositing someplace new and  healthy skepticism ain't a bad thing in this industry.

In my opinion, fair doesn't mean just relying on the algorithm of each game, because it is very difficult to determine whether the system is cheating or not.
But what I'm highlighting about fairness here is how well they can pay every win we get, whether we make it difficult for us to withdraw our winnings or deliberately lose our balance without our knowledge.
And also try to play on trusted gambling sites or platforms that have genuine reviews from people who have played there. At least you have an idea of what platform you will decide to play on.

You do have a point, but the thing is, a website or online casino can't show us how they build the game or casino site, or, in short, there are no means of showing us that their games are legitimate and fair. The only assurance we have is that if they are certified to operate in an online casino, then they have complied with the rules and regulations of the laws that are responsible for internet stuff. I mean, there is a process by which they can operate to go online, so I think that's enough assurance for us that they have fair casino games. They build or programme their casino games online, and the result is random. If they do something to make it unfair, then they shouldn't operate, and the laws will notice that and sanction them. So I guess that's enough assurance for us. Of course, we will pick a casino with a good reputation, not just a new and unpopular online casino that might be a scam.

Hmmm when it comes to verifying if those rolls are fair then we do have those verifiers on which we could check out for ourselves.
I did make out some search and i would see these links would really be that relevant.

https://dicesites.com/provably-fair
https://wp.nyu.edu/dispatch/how-to-check-if-a-game-has-been-played-fair-with-blockchain-technology/

When it comes to the thing about thinking if they arent cheating on us then we can assume that they are 100% fair. They would really be having
that kind of tweak that they would really be the winner in the end of the day.  ;D

What do you mean "provably fair games"? C'mon man, you're gambling and atleast you've got an insurance on any casino's algorithm on whether or not them odd/games are fair enough. The latter covers a wholesome part of your interest and would probably be one of the reasons why you got registered on the site already.
Roulette - especially on mobile-plays ain't reliable... Sometimes, it looks to me like it's been pre-programmed and anything you win is maximized over the casinos already-made profit.... It's part of virtual gamings though

Sandra 🧑‍🦰

I don't think we can neither have I been able to see anyone who have proved this, it also depends on the reason on why we are gambling that will make us to be more concerned about this or not, if we really care about the fun we have in gambling then we have to take it as it is with the risk involved in gambling for either win or loss, people gamble because they just want to have fun and not like making business whereby they need to be sure of every steps taken as being appropriate accordingly.

Others have already given methods to prove if provably fair was done, but if you want to know the behind-the-scenes of it, there's a bunch of links out there that dictate it. To dumb it down though, The server has some data before the bet was intiialized. After the bet, you can grab that data and do your own verification using algorithms based on how the casino did theirs (which should be available in public afaik to check?) and if the results match, then you're good to go.

Now idk how they do the string generation part though whether it truly is random or not.

that's a difficult question to answer. Some casinos dare to share their coding and does that guarantee that they always use the coding or sometimes change it for their own benefit? we don't know.

So far I haven't found a satisfactory table game, most house edge table games are hard to win and the dealer wins more often. Especially in blackjack games. For table games I prefer playing in a live casino. For poker games, sometimes I suspect there is a casino team also sitting at the table, usually someone thinks like that but I don't know how it really is.

Try playing very small amounts and look at the graph at how it behaves. If it's going back to zero or near it after a loss or a win then that's what provably fair is. I also don't know how to check this but I believe the server seed has something to do about it.

Every time I play, I make sure I test the seed first before I start gambling on the amount that I prefer. My test will not be like a "play for fun" with 0 amount bet, I put something in it like the minimum amount and let it run for a long period.
But I don't really lean on this anymore. It's always the RTP that I want to see because it's too obvious when it's happening especially on original games like Keno, Plinko, Dice, and the one you mentioned. When it comes, you will feel that there are changes in the multiplier like it wants to give back after a loss, and in Plinko, the ball is trying to bounce out so that it could equal the losses that happened.
Now, how to take advantage of this is impossible. The only way that I could see is to get out and withdraw or rest for a long time until it resets which is hard to do after a lucky streak.

I don't know how casino algorithms work, I just go by gut feeling. When I feel the dealer is constantly dealing bad cards, I prefer to leave the game and choose another game. If it still doesn't work and my luck is still bad then I will change gambling sites. I think all the coding will make the casino more likely to win than the players, but I prefer to play at a casino that has a lot of users.

The site will probably mention that it is offering provably fair games. Its provably fair system might even be mentioned in the terms of service. If not, you can directly inquire it from them.

As far as the games are concerned, you can test the results yourself. The casino might have its in-house verifier which you can use to check if the results are reached fairly. If you don't fully trust them, you can use a third party verifier instead. There are a number of them offering such service for free. You can for example use BTCGOSU's: https://www.btcgosu.com/tools/provably-fair-verifier/#.

Usually gambling sites provide a seed hash that you can check and verify. Just like the @cabron said. If I am not wrong there is also a foundation that talks about provably fair gambling and the site is : https://cryptogambling.org/ and If you would like to learn more about the technical workings of provably fair algorithms, you can download the whitepaper. on their site and they have a lot of member including Stake Bitvest and etc.

your gut feeling didn't tell you the casino might just be cheating on you?  the more i feel like the casino is cheating on me when i got the 5 successive losses.
checking the provably fair of the casino to know whether they are really fair would be good to know.

probably to satisfy curiosity, i was also trying to check the game results after learning some accusations to the casinos where users proved the hash didn't match. i didn't try looking or that thread but i know it's there. they wouldn't be creating those verifiers, it must be to clear things up.

Sometimes to be really confident (on a simple Seeds pair (server/client) system) that all is fair player should be in control over the client seed at every bet placed! otherwise the casino could just control the results as he like !

I usually look for the site's provably fair information, randomness, and transparency to provide me assurance before placing any bets. By doing some research, it helps me to make sure that I'm playing on a site where games are fair and transparent.

Assuming it's provably fair, you will still lose your money, I don't bother looking into this anymore because it's like chasing a shadow, even if you caught up with it you can't catch it, why worry myself? Instead, I will keep taking risks to see how long it will take me to win on the casino.

I only need to make sure that I am using a reputable online casino, the doubt of provably fair occurs only if the casino is brand new or you keep losing for way too long, maybe weeks after weeks and no a single luck even if the amount is small, it might be time to look into another online casino or take a break.

Some gamblers prefer third party game provider for this reason, if a casino only have games built by them, there might be some unfairness happening behind the scene, some relies on seed harsh that casinos provide too, I don't rely bother to doubt, because I use good casinos to try my luck.

I do not know much about casino seed, all that I prefer to do is to register on a casino that I have make my researches on and seen to be reputable. Let us say the gambling sites on this forum, it is also about the casino reputation. If I see the casino is having good reputation, I go further and make use of it to gamble.

Casino game algorithms can actually never be guessed and truly known by gamblers because they have random way of working which can never be known using any method or any knowledge, this happens because they are doing business, not doing charity.
If casino game algorithms were easy to guess and understand then I sure they would go bankrupt and in the end they would never be able to develop in any way, casino secrets would always be protected no matter what.

But as you said using hunch, this is pretty good alternative to avoid the risk of bigger losses.
When you get bad cards or several rounds, leave the game or gambling site, this will suppress the curiosity that causes consecutive losses to occur.
But some gamblers don't seem to really understand this and they might not think to try doing what you said by using gut feeling to determine whether game is worth it or not.

Just as most other users here, I do not check whether an online casino is provably fair or  not. My criteria for registering on a casino is their reputation and there terms of conditions. Once they are highly reputable and their ToC makes sense, I sign up, fund my account and gamble away. If I win. Great. If I lose, I try another day. I don't stop to verify if it is actually provably fair. Even though this is one of the best things to happen to online casinos, I still do not get how it works. This is a task that these casinos have to move one step further in helping their customers to be able to understand and verify their probably claims.

Makes sense. Positive reviews and a responsive customer support team usually indicate a reputable casino. Also, make sure the casino has a valid gaming license to ensure it's legit

I don't know how to prove the casino site is provably fair and haven't thought about it either. As long as the casino can provide good service, is trustworthy, and comes from this forum, I think that's enough for me to trust the casino and just gamble. After all, I don't use gambling to make money and just for fun so I don't think I need to find out whether the site is provably fair or whether the site will cheat its members. If the casino cheats its members, someone will be suspicious, investigate it, and report it on this forum to get clarification about everything. There are members here who can verify that the sites are provably fair.

I'm not totally sure what part is confusing here.  Are you wondering how to know if some casino games are really fair? That info should be easy to find on the casino's website for each game and in their terms of service.  Or maybe you understand what provably fair means, but aren't sure how to actually check if the games live up to that promise? Yeah, verifying it yourself can get technical.  You need to understand the specific systems each casino uses to generate randomness and show proof. 

The best casinos explain everything clearly on their sites though.  Look for a page about provably fair specifically that lays out how each game works and  some even have tools to let you verify outcomes are legit, but you may need some crypto knowledge to use those.  The main thing is that reputable places want you to trust the games are fair so they should make info on how they work easy to access.  Its a bit of work to understand it fully, but you can get the gist.

I also actually didn't think too much about it because there has been a lot of discussion about server seeds and client seeds which you can check yourself. I also know that it is important to play on trusted and big sites, so why don't you ever gamble on sites that It's still relatively new or still small because it's not convincing to be proven fair, although maybe the big sites don't fully do that either, I don't want to say much about whether this is fair or not. You can see for yourself which dealers and users win more.

We all know that the bookie will always win against us, in fact that doesn't mean they are not proven to be fair, it's just that we are not fighting against a real bookie but against our greedy behavior and also not controlling our emotions so that is what makes us lose too carelessly in betting. in the end it makes us lose a lot and lose a lot of money in gambling, I don't know the direction of your question and I don't think it leads to what I said above. The point is whether it is proven to be fair or not, the most important thing is that self-control in gambling is the most important thing.  ;)

I appreciate everyone's responses here.  I haven't had time to go through all of them yet, but the few that I have, have helped me to be able to understand things a little better.



Yeah exactly, I'm wondering how it can ( or can't ) be proven if the Casino is cheating you or not.  It feels like they have been lately, hence why I've asked this question lol

I don't know which casino you are specifically talking about, but let's take Duelbits as an example, since you promote them with your signature.

Everything is here: https://duelbits.com/fairness

If I'm reading correctly, they make portions of their source code publicly available and  i suppose the salient question is whether users can leverage that code to independently audit and verify the site's claimed fairness.   In theory, an engaged community could band together, reviewing shared source elements to call fouls or confirm fairness.  It presents an opportunity for crowd-sourced regulation.

Would be very hard to find out if a casino is giving you salted seeds. I think someone on the inside would have to leak that information. The result is going to look fine if you go to verify a bet from a salted seed, nothing would look fishy.

I think you would only have to worry on a smaller casino, but I could be wrong. I just don't feel like a big name is going to risk their name.

If you want to make sure an online gambling site is truly fair, there are several things you can do. First, it is important to verify that the site holds an official license from a reputable gambling authority. This license serves as proof that the site has undergone strict regulation and inspection by authoritative figures to ensure the fairness of their games. Second, pay attention to whether the site uses an RNG (Random Number Generator) that has been independently tested or not. Random Number Generation (RNG) plays an important role in guaranteeing the authenticity of game results, such as the spin of a roulette wheel or a poker hand. The goal is to ensure that these outcomes are truly random and unpredictable. Additionally, it is important to pay attention to the privacy and security policies of the websites you use, to protect your personal and financial information from potential risks.

Lastly, you have the opportunity to use reviews and opinions of fellow users about the site. Delving into the thoughts shared by other players can give you valuable insight into the immersive experience offered by playing on the site, as well as an evaluation of whether they consider the games to be fair. Hope this helps~

several threads have been dedicated here regarding provable fairness. so the user can check on those threads and see for himself if the casino is indeed employing their provable fairness at all times. because it should always respect the fairness at any given time without fail.


that is very true! i don't think a known reputable casino or has a name to take care of will try to cheat on their players. because let us put it this way, there will always be one player who will test the provable fairness of the site. just look at the users here who created threads on how to verify the provable fairness is in place. because one exposure of what they are doing can crumble their years of hard work and can wipe out their existence in this industry.

Honestly, I'm not the type of gambler who will go deep into confirming if anything is provably fair. Yes, there are lots of ways and methods around to verify the fair probability of every bet but how can I even know if everything is accurate if, in the first place, I'm not technical about it?

What I'm relying on is, how reputable the gambling site is. I will bet that a reputable gambling site won't shit their users and will cheat the provably fair system of their gambling site. It's hard to establish a good reputation. After all, there are lots of gamblers who are knowledgeable about the fair system, and if they find out that the site is trying to cheat their users, that will risk the reputation built by the site.

I'm not huge into these kind of places to bet (I don't do much dice which is huge) but the code behind everything should be able to be read and proved put that what is being sold in terms of stake should be provable.  There are smarter people out there that have done this time and time again to either verify or debunk sites constantly.