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Other => Meta => Topic started by: Alone055 on September 25, 2024, 12:38:07 PM



Title: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Alone055 on September 25, 2024, 12:38:07 PM
I know that if we report AI-generated texts or content to moderators, they get deleted, and I also know that there is a thread for reporting AI-generated posts (I'm unable to find that thread at the moment, sorry), but, shouldn't there be an official rule in the unofficial list of forum rules (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0) against obvious AI-generated content and posts?

I use the word "obvious" because some people might argue that it's not always possible to find out whether a post has been written by a human or an AI model, but if you have used AI models yourself or you have some experience with them, you would know that the texts they usually generate will have some sort of a pattern that makes them easy to spot. Look at the snap below as an example:

https://talkimg.com/images/2024/09/25/g5lxP.png

There are three posts shown in the picture. Now, there are two things that you need to note. First, all the posts are starting with an almost similar tone, "You've raised some...", "You've hit the nail...", etc. The second thing is that you will not be able to find a single grammatical or punctuation mistake in all the posts. Why? Because AI is too perfect, it won't make mistakes that humans do such as forgetting a dot, maybe a comma, or maybe making a grammatical mistake in one of the sentences, etc.

So, the point is, that I believe we should have an official rule against obvious AI-generated content being posted on the forum. It should say something like:

34. Using AI-generated content and passing it on as your own is not allowed.

Anyone reported to moderators for breaking the rule should get a temporary ban initially, and if they don't stop, the second report should get them permanently banned. Alternatively, maybe there can be some other restriction that can be imposed for breaking this rule.

Looking forward to your opinions on this.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: wiss19 on September 25, 2024, 12:49:01 PM
I do not think any new rule needs to be added just because of AI content creation.

It can be treated under plagiarism or even spam.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: dkbit98 on September 25, 2024, 12:56:30 PM
For me AI generated content in forum fits nicely under rule number 33:
Quote
Posting plagiarized content is not allowed.

You can actually use AI generated text for something and post it in forum, but you should post it with quotes and add note that this text was generated with xyz AI.
Anything else is going to be considered as zero or low value post and cheating.
If detected post gets reported to mods.
Simple.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Alone055 on September 25, 2024, 01:20:07 PM
It can be treated under plagiarism or even spam.

For me AI generated content in forum fits nicely under rule number 33:
Quote
Posting plagiarized content is not allowed.

Yes, but it's not clear plagiarism because the content is not taken from somewhere on the web, or a forum or anywhere, it's just generated through a bot and used as if it's written by the user himself.

You can actually use AI generated text for something and post it in forum, but you should post it with quotes and add note that this text was generated with xyz AI.

That's different and shouldn't be punishable just as how you can provide reference with copied content and don't get punished for plagiarism.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: YOSHIE on September 25, 2024, 01:44:23 PM
Looking forward to your opinions on this.
Maybe idea of ​​the rule of not being allowed to use AI is valid, but AI artificial intelligence chatbot technology is very difficult to eliminate. To overcome the problem of cheating, it is very complicated at the moment, What's more, lately many people have come here as beginners by buying an account and want to quickly get involved in paid campaigns. Al fast alternative for them.

The fixed rules of behavior for cheating using the Al method cannot be removed, these rules will add a little to the mod's work, some Al content is difficult to detect, maybe some is easy, this will add to the list of hours spent staying up late for mods, For me, if you find those who cheat the results from Al, you can report them, that way I think it will reduce those who cheat with Al, From my perspective, 90% of users cheat Al. Most of their accounts are bought, aka newcomers using old newcomers.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Cricktor on September 25, 2024, 01:57:49 PM
~
Do you understand what plagiarism is? You plagiarize when you make someone's or something's content appear as if it were your own. If you deliberately omit the source of presented content when it isn't yours, you plagiarize.

Doesn't matter if its a bot or copied from a website or chatbot prompt output. Doesn't matter if you have a browser extension that talks to ChatGPT or whatever behind the scenes. If it generates text that you wouldn't have come up on your own, it's not your content. Don't make it look like it is your own content, to be safe always provide a source reference.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Alone055 on September 25, 2024, 02:04:05 PM
The fixed rules of behavior for cheating using the Al method cannot be removed, these rules will add a little to the mod's work, some Al content is difficult to detect, maybe some is easy, this will add to the list of hours spent staying up late for mods, For me, if you find those who cheat the results from Al, you can report them, that way I think it will reduce those who cheat with Al, From my perspective, 90% of users cheat Al. Most of their accounts are bought, aka newcomers using old newcomers.

I think this will ease the burden of moderators. A user's 200 posts being reported and deleted by a moderator will increase their burden but if the same user gets banned or restricted for breaking a rule within the first 10 to 20 reported posts, that makes it easier for them.

Do you understand what plagiarism is? You plagiarize when you make someone's or something's content appear as if it were your own. If you deliberately omit the source of presented content when it isn't yours, you plagiarize.

Doesn't matter if its a bot or copied from a website or chatbot prompt output. Doesn't matter if you have a browser extension that talks to ChatGPT or whatever behind the scenes. If it generates text that you wouldn't have come up on your own, it's not your content. Don't make it look like it is your own content, to be safe always provide a source reference.

I know what plagiarism is, and I know it's technically plagiarism, but I said it's not provable or clear plagiarism because you can't find concrete evidence for it since the content generated is only available to that specific user and no one else, so if you report it as plagiarism, you can't prove it, technically.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Just Say on September 25, 2024, 02:40:39 PM
I know that if we report AI-generated texts or content to moderators, they get deleted, and I also know that there is a thread for reporting AI-generated posts (I'm unable to find that thread at the moment, sorry), but, shouldn't there be an official rule in the unofficial list of forum rules (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0) against obvious AI-generated content and posts?

Looking forward to your opinions on this.
Hey @Alone055 you should go to this thread and post the one I'm referring to you can't find it right now. AI Spam Report Reference Thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5456516.0) The member (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=3616492) you refer to here have already discussed those posts on the AI Spam Report Reference Thread. Even that member has been given a neutral tag.

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/09/25/g7Jw5.jpeg


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Rikafip on September 25, 2024, 02:43:03 PM
I know what plagiarism is, and I know it's technically plagiarism, but I said it's not provable or clear plagiarism because you can't find concrete evidence for it since the content generated is only available to that specific user and no one else, so if you report it as plagiarism, you can't prove it, technically.
You can use that argument to say that you can't prove with 100% certainty that someone uses AI bot as well which would then make the rule against AI generated content useless.

As others said, plagiarism rule covers this nicely, but unfortunately mods are less leniant to ban people over that type of plagiarism (some would say for any type of plagiarism as well). At least for now.



Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: tranthidung on September 25, 2024, 03:10:42 PM
If you copy and paste a content for any source, but you don't announce the source link, it's plagiarism.

AI-generated, or human-generated, it's the same because if you are not an original author of the content, you plagiarized.

Since last two years, many discussions and proposals against AI.
This forum will need explicit rules on the use of AI. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5432184.0)
AI-generated post discussion thread: how to identify & report (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5448111.0)
AI generated content by newbies (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5491588.0)
Plagiarism vs AI Posting (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5445074.0)
What's AI Written Post? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5439694.0)

Report any AI-generated post to
AI Spam Report Reference Thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5456516.0)


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Alpha Marine on September 25, 2024, 03:18:29 PM
Yes, but it's not clear plagiarism because the content is not taken from somewhere on the web, or a forum or anywhere, it's just generated through a bot and used as if it's written by the user himself.

According to the Oxford Dictionary, "Plagiarism is the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own"
From this definition, we can say that posting an AI-generated post is plagiarism because they took a work that's not theirs and posted it as theirs. It's no different from taking content on the internet and posting it as mine. Someone or something else wrote that, so if you must use it, you have to reference where it came from.

So I think the forum is right to classify AI-generated posts that are without referring as plagiarism and award the same punishment to all parties.
To me, it's even easier to spot an AI-generated post. I've reported more AI-generated posts than I have reported a plagiarised post from another website or article. Once those kinds of posts as reported and they are confirmed, they're deleted immediately.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Coyster on September 25, 2024, 03:20:33 PM
I agree that people who post AI content should be banned for plagiarism, but i believe mods don't want to start banning people for it because some of the AI detection tools give false positives if you run a post through them.

I'm aware that there are certain tools that give "accurate" results if a post is generated by AI or not, but maybe mods don't want to solely depend on these "external" tools to ban users on the forum, because it will prolly create a lot of drama with users claiming that the tools were wrong about their posts.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: tranthidung on September 25, 2024, 03:43:48 PM
According to the Oxford Dictionary, "Plagiarism is the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own"
Plagiarism definition in the forum is not the same as in academic space. The definition on plagiarism can be universal or local and you can see Bitcoin forum is a strictest forum against plagiarism in comparison with other cryptocurrency forums.

It is case to case basis, and with my experience here, it's time to time basis too. What is time to time basis?

Punishment on plagiarism can be different at different times, sometimes it was nothing (forum did not care about it), sometimes it was strict, sometimes there is second chance but strict reviews, sometimes second of second chances, and sometimes a poster must make dozens of plagiarized posts to be banned.

In general, I'm all for being lenient. There are users who have been temp banned many times but still haven't been permabanned because their contributions outweigh their misbehavior. I actively disbelieve in the idea of a "rule of law" where hard rules exist and are strictly applied across the board as if we're all robots. Every case should be considered individually in the context of the forum's mission.

Plagiarism is what gets people permabanned, not just copying. Plagiarism is copying with the intent of passing the work off as your own. In essentially all cases, plagiarism deserves a permaban because it usually proves definitively that the person is here for the wrong reasons: to fill up space in order to get paid, not to actually discuss or contribute. If someone was able to convince us that they were plagiarizing just to eg. impress people rather than to fill up space, then a lesser ban of a few months might instead be warranted. But this has never happened AFAICR. (Arguments based on plausible deniability aren't going to work; we don't need to prove that you had the motive we see in your actions.)

If you treat posting as a job, a chore, then you must live in fear, since the forum is not made for you. In this case, you need to blend in as someone who actually cares, but plagiarism will immediately out you, and producing a mountain of useless posts will also eventually be noticed, if more slowly. If you do actually care, then this will be obvious in your posts (and probably your merit score), and you will have nothing to fear from moderators; even allegations of plagiarism will be doubted when seen in the context of your other posts.

Quote
in extreme cases could be copyright theft?

Plagiarism is almost always a copyright violation which could conceivably get the poster in a lot of trouble, but it's not a bigger legal issue for the forum than anything else. (Using the forum to violate copyright is never allowed, though.)

Quote
when copying and pasting from the net can it lower google rankings? and internal copy and past could do the same thing?

That's not a particular concern of mine.

Quote
even memes may soon constitute copyright theft

Only in the EUSSR.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Alone055 on September 25, 2024, 04:29:28 PM
Hey @Alone055 you should go to this thread and post the one I'm referring to you can't find it right now. AI Spam Report Reference Thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5456516.0) The member (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=3616492) you refer to here have already discussed those posts on the AI Spam Report Reference Thread. Even that member has been given a neutral tag.

Thank you for this. I looked but couldn't find the thread, I guess I was looking in the wrong section for it. If I had found it earlier, I would have been able to report the guy before LoyceV, I guess.  :D

As others said, plagiarism rule covers this nicely, but unfortunately mods are less leniant to ban people over that type of plagiarism (some would say for any type of plagiarism as well). At least for now.

I agree that people who post AI content should be banned for plagiarism, but i believe mods don't want to start banning people for it because some of the AI detection tools give false positives if you run a post through them.

I'm aware that there are certain tools that give "accurate" results if a post is generated by AI or not, but maybe mods don't want to solely depend on these "external" tools to ban users on the forum, because it will prolly create a lot of drama with users claiming that the tools were wrong about their posts.

At least users who are posting obvious AI-generated content should get punished for it. Even if they don't want to, mods will have to depend on external tools in this case because that is the only way it can be proved that these plagiarizers are doing the wrong thing.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Lucius on September 25, 2024, 04:30:43 PM
I know that if we report AI-generated texts or content to moderators, they get deleted, and I also know that there is a thread for reporting AI-generated posts (I'm unable to find that thread at the moment, sorry), but, shouldn't there be an official rule in the unofficial list of forum rules (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0) against obvious AI-generated content and posts?~snip~

No offense, but you are already an old member of the forum and you should know how to find a topic, and especially you should know that such a topic is probably in the Reputation board.

Regarding your question, I think that it should definitely be added to the unofficial rules of the forum the rule about AI, because it is obvious that too many users of this forum think that using the same thing is completely normal, which means that the forum is increasingly under the attack of AI spammers against whom less than 10 members are fighting on the entire forum.

Clear rules and strict penalties if it is proven beyond doubt that someone is using AI for their posts are the only thing that can prevent such behavior.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: tranthidung on September 25, 2024, 04:43:50 PM
No offense, but you are already an old member of the forum and you should know how to find a topic, and especially you should know that such a topic is probably in the Reputation board.
If he does not know, he can learn and now is the time for it.
  • [Guide] Searching effectively (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5276341.0)
  • theymos explained about forum search with some guides, days ago.
I use the forum search a lot, but you really need to know how it works and how to deal with its quirks. Some tips:

  • If you search for candy corn, it will return posts with both "candy" and "corn" in their bodies or subjects. The two words are keywords that can be separated, so it would match the phrase "I like candy, but I don't like corn". If you instead search for "candy corn", with the quotes, then the two words have to appear right next to each other as a single phrase.
  • With the default settings, it will only return the last post in a topic that matches, even if more posts in that topic match. To change this, enable the option "Show results as messages".
  • If more than about 5 pages of topics would be returned, then only an arbitrary subset of all results will be returned. To avoid this, setting a message-age restriction is often a good approach.
  • If you use the search box in the upper right while in a topic or board, then it only searches that topic or board (& sub-boards).
  • If one of the words in your search is incredibly common on the forum, like "the", then search will return bad, weird results, or may time-out after hanging for a long time. This applies even if the common word is in a quoted phrase, like "the president". Some decent-looking results may be returned, but posts which should be returned will not be.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: LoyceV on September 25, 2024, 04:51:14 PM
Not only the obvious ones, all AI verbal diarrhea should be banned. From the forum, but even better if it's banned from the internet.

I use the word "obvious" because some people might argue that it's not always possible to find out whether a post has been written by a human or an AI model
All the more reason to ban it all. If the user doesn't use a chatbot to create some text to pretend he wrote it, he doesn't have to worry about being obvious or not.

For me AI generated content in forum fits nicely under rule number 33:
Quote
Posting plagiarized content is not allowed.
Agreed. But why don't they all get banned instantly?


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: KingsDen on September 25, 2024, 05:23:30 PM
I agree that people who post AI content should be banned for plagiarism, but i believe mods don't want to start banning people for it because some of the AI detection tools give false positives if you run a post through them.
Not only because there's no accurate AI detection tool. I believe that theymos doesn't want to enforce a rule yet, this might be because AI is pretty much new and could develop to something better than spammers using it to generate posts in the forum. Making a rule against it might later contradict the forum in the future or impede the exploration of the technology.

However, even without admin's intervention, forum members have started fighting AI spammers, but it's not going to be an easy war. But in the end, people can't stop using AI to generate posts in the forum. It's better we starting learning how to accommodate it as part of forum happenings just like plagerism.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: wiss19 on September 25, 2024, 06:09:31 PM
For me AI generated content in forum fits nicely under rule number 33:
Quote
Posting plagiarized content is not allowed.
Agreed. But why don't they all get banned instantly?
Not get banned because mods not seeing AI contents as plagiarism? Now, I get why OP started this discussion. You nailed it @LoyceV :D.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: promise444c5 on September 25, 2024, 07:06:22 PM
OP didn't  show the username but showed the id :)
OP's Suspect=> Princeeibn (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=3616492)

Generally I think once a post uses a chat bot to generate a reply  for a post or let's just say Ai generated text as you've  said , there's no how it won't plagiarise because it uses available  resources to answer your question  and that's gonna plagiarise someone's content nmw. Now detecting it sometimes could be tricky.... because you see some similar word  expressions in a post doesn't really means it's AI generated though  the user above could  have  used an Ai for his/her  content.
Thus even if the rule is  been created(apart from the plagiarism), the content still needs to be reported and the  decisions will still have to be carried out by mod.



Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Odohu on September 25, 2024, 07:37:22 PM
I know what plagiarism is, and I know it's technically plagiarism, but I said it's not provable or clear plagiarism because you can't find concrete evidence for it since the content generated is only available to that specific user and no one else, so if you report it as plagiarism, you can't prove it, technically.
You can use that argument to say that you can't prove with 100% certainty that someone uses AI bot as well which would then make the rule against AI generated content useless.

As others said, plagiarism rule covers this nicely, but unfortunately mods are less leniant to ban people over that type of plagiarism (some would say for any type of plagiarism as well). At least for now.
Why I think the mods use the hammer on users who are engage in the use of AI is that allowing AI to thrive in this forum defeats the core purpose of the forum which I guess is a place of organic discussion of Bitcoin, Blockchain technology and every other thing that is connected to the digital economy. Allowing AI kills the originality requirements and will make here to be heavily infested with bots, the consequence of which will be that no one will take the forum seriously. So, I love the approach adopted by the mods regarding the use of AI in a forum like ours.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: nutildah on September 26, 2024, 12:45:17 AM
For me AI generated content in forum fits nicely under rule number 33:
Quote
Posting plagiarized content is not allowed.
Agreed. But why don't they all get banned instantly?

This is a good point. Only some of them are getting banned. It seems we're at the point where most regular forum members have moved away from trying to use AI (except for in the Gambling section) and now the only ones who do it are newbie bots and promoters of projects. If a newbie just writes a bunch of spam posts right off the bat, they usually get banned; same thing should apply to AI spammers.

I'm thinking about how much AI spam there might be right now if I hadn't started my thread  :D


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Vod on September 26, 2024, 03:55:40 AM
I do not think any new rule needs to be added just because of AI content creation.

It can be treated under plagiarism or even spam.

But AI is not plagiarism.  

AI is a tool that many people here use to generate text.    Could be because they are lazy, or aren't native to the language.  

Consider a user who watches a bitcoin story and has a great political cartoon idea.   He/She can't draw worth shit, so he describes the idea to AI.   He then posts the image here and starts a passionate discussion about a novel idea.  Why is that punishable?

Did you know that websites like BPIP, Nintastic, ImgTalk, etc all use plagiarised code?   It's legal in the form of "packages", so why shouldn't AI content be legal as well?

From this definition, we can say that posting an AI-generated post is plagiarism because they took a work that's not theirs and posted it as theirs.

So each of the websites above should list all authors of each open source package they use or be banned? 


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Apocollapse on September 26, 2024, 04:10:27 AM
Agreed. But why don't they all get banned instantly?
Because the forum don't want to lose more traffic, not all reports in plagiarism are taken action by moderators, only the posts are being deleted, while the users didn't get banned. So, this might be the reason why all users that use AI didn't get banned.

So each of the websites above should list all authors of each open source package they use or be banned? 
There are no rules in this forum the developers will be banned for committing code plagiarism.

What I know there's a license to protect digital property, so the authors can sue them for breaching the license.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: nutildah on September 26, 2024, 04:43:33 AM
But AI is not plagiarism.

I disagree. Let's look at the definition (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/plagiarism):

Quote
an act or instance of using or closely imitating the language and thoughts of another author without authorization and the representation of that author's work as one's own, as by not crediting the original author

The original author is not the poster. Its ChatGPT. If you credit ChatGPT for the post, then its not plagiarism. AI posters are misrepresenting their actual abilities, and most of the time the output is perfunctory blather that doesn't add anything to the conversation (which is why there is a lot of overlap between spam and AI text).

Consider a user who watches a bitcoin story and has a great political cartoon idea.   He/She can't draw worth shit, so he describes the idea to AI.   He then posts the image here and starts a passionate discussion about a novel idea.  Why is that punishable?

I don't care if people post AI generated images (unless they are extremely bad to the point of being offensive). I doubt most other people care either. It would be tacky for the person posting the image to say "I made this using my own brain," or imply something similar.

Let's say for instance someone designing a series of Bitcoin collectibles uses AI-generated images to "showcase their work." Its not their work at all -- it doesn't even exist. This would not be a particularly trust-inspiring act. Its all about the context in which AI-generated material is being used. If its being used to meet shitpost quotas, I'm against it.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: hd49728 on September 26, 2024, 04:55:27 AM
The original author is not the poster. Its ChatGPT. If you credit ChatGPT for the post, then its not plagiarism. AI posters are misrepresenting their actual abilities, and most of the time the output is perfunctory blather that doesn't add anything to the conversation (which is why there is a lot of overlap between spam and AI text).
The chatbot AI users never credit their posts to ChatGPT or other AIs because they intend to steal contents created by ChatGPT, AI and make it like their own content.

If they are in a campaign, campaign manager will not pay for posts credited to ChatGPT, AI.
If they are newbies, forum members will not merit these posts if there is credit to ChatGPT, AI.

Intention of ChatGPT, AI users is clear, and they don't forget to add credit but they want to hide source of the content.

So it's plagiarism.

I don't care if people post AI generated images (unless they are extremely bad to the point of being offensive)
They can use AI generated images in their posts for fun, like memes, but if they use these images for their participation in art contests, it's not acceptable.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Vod on September 26, 2024, 04:59:32 AM
But AI is not plagiarism.

I disagree. Let's look at the definition (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/plagiarism):

Quote
an act or instance of using or closely imitating the language and thoughts of another author without authorization and the representation of that author's work as one's own, as by not crediting the original author

Oh, the definition card.   I trump that with the details card:  An AI does not have thoughts.   AI is a tool much like Grammarly or a typewriter.

(forgive the sarcasm, you know I love you)


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: LoyceV on September 26, 2024, 05:51:55 AM
But AI is not plagiarism.
It's text written by someone (or something) else while the user pretends he wrote it by himself. That's plagiarism by definition.
The "AI" tool itself is highly debatable too: I've seen many accusations of them using unlicensed input data to train it, and they don't credit the real authors.

Quote
Consider a user who watches a bitcoin story and has a great political cartoon idea.   He/She can't draw worth shit, so he describes the idea to AI.   He then posts the image here and starts a passionate discussion about a novel idea.  Why is that punishable?
Now consider the same user who pays someone to draw for him, and pretends he did it by himself.

Quote
Did you know that websites like BPIP, Nintastic, ImgTalk, etc all use plagiarised code?   It's legal in the form of "packages", so why shouldn't AI content be legal as well?
The Open Source licenses allow this use, and (usually) allows you to make changes as long as you credit the original writers. By crediting them it's not plagiarism.

Because the forum don't want to lose more traffic
If by "the forum" you mean theymos, I don't think he cares about the amount of traffic. If anything, low-quality traffic isn't worth much.

The original author is not the poster. Its ChatGPT. If you credit ChatGPT for the post, then its not plagiarism.
It's probably still plagiarism, but from ChatGPT. They take bits and pieces of other people's work without crediting anyone.

If they are newbies, forum members will not merit these posts if there is credit to ChatGPT, AI.
Some even earn Merit, but I'm much more disappointed by the number of people responding to them. Even on the tech board: what's the point of responding to a made-up problem?


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: lovesmayfamilis on September 26, 2024, 08:36:38 AM


Yes, but it's not clear plagiarism because the content is not taken from somewhere on the web, or a forum or anywhere, it's just generated through a bot and used as if it's written by the user himself.


I'll show you an example. OP, you are misinterpreting your guesses about where the AI texts come from. And when we see this kind of behavior, where there are a lot of similar phrases torn out of a million articles on the Internet and collected together in another, next answer, it still does not belong to the person who copied and pasted it.
And yes, such posts can be seen not only by those who use AI, but also by those who often check such posts.
Just answer, can this post not be considered plagiarism when the tool shows other sources from which the sentences were torn out?

DCA is a strategy that invests a fixed amount of assets at regular intervals. The advantage of using this DCA is that it can reduce the risk of large investments, and if you invest small amounts over a period of time, you are less likely to lose significantly if the market shows a sudden downturn.
The advantage of the DCA method over single investments and large sums of money at once is that if the market is bullish, you have the potential for higher returns.

Dollar-Cost Averaging (DCA) A time-tested investment strategy, this strategy allows an investor to periodically spread an aggregate amount of money in an attempt to reduce the effect of volatility on the aggregate purchase of a target asset.

For example let's say you want to invest $200 in Bitcoin, instead of buying all $200 BTC you can buy $20 worth of BTC every week for ten consecutive weeks.

The main advantage of the DCA method is that it takes the emotion out of investing because you buy a fixed dollar amount of assets on a regular schedule and are less likely to make emotional decisions that could damage your investment portfolio.

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/09/26/g8Cpq.png


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Lucius on September 26, 2024, 10:05:43 AM
~snip~
Not get banned because mods not seeing AI contents as plagiarism? Now, I get why OP started this discussion. You nailed it @LoyceV :D.


It is quite easy to determine with 100% certainty that someone has plagiarized because you have the user's post and the source from which the content was copied - noting that there were cases where some users copied their content from blogs or other forums without citing the source, which then it's definitely not plagiarism if they can prove it.

On the other hand, you have a lot of AI detectors, some of which are very bad and give a lot of false detections, which is why I accused one forum user of using AI, which was not the case. Therefore, one should be careful when using such tools and always use at least three reliable tools before making a final conclusion.

I think that the mods are very careful in the case of AI reports, because there is a possibility that someone will be permanently banned due to bad detection, and that's why you need more evidence that someone is really using AI in order to get a permanent ban.

I would personally try to influence all members (personally new ones) with a clear message that the use of AI can lead them into problems and that they should think twice about using it on the forum. Of course, there are users who use AI to create images and that's perfectly OK and can be fun, as is the case in WO sometimes.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Alone055 on September 26, 2024, 11:29:31 AM
Thus even if the rule is  been created(apart from the plagiarism), the content still needs to be reported and the  decisions will still have to be carried out by mod.

I know members will be reporting AI-generated content and the users being reported should get some punishment along with deleting their posts.

Because the forum don't want to lose more traffic, not all reports in plagiarism are taken action by moderators, only the posts are being deleted, while the users didn't get banned. So, this might be the reason why all users that use AI didn't get banned.

About plagiarism, I don't think a user is banned if it's proven that they have been involved in plagiarism, but when it comes to AI-generated content, users aren't getting banned, only the posts are deleted. What you said about traffic doesn't make any sense because you wouldn't let people keep breaking the rules only because you don't want to lose some traffic.

I'll show you an example. OP, you are misinterpreting your guesses about where the AI texts come from. And when we see this kind of behavior, where there are a lot of similar phrases torn out of a million articles on the Internet and collected together in another, next answer, it still does not belong to the person who copied and pasted it.
And yes, such posts can be seen not only by those who use AI, but also by those who often check such posts.
Just answer, can this post not be considered plagiarism when the tool shows other sources from which the sentences were torn out?

I understand, I know that AI-generated content is plagiarism but it's plagiarism on the part of the bot providing that content, and the reason why I believe it's wrong to use those texts as someone's own is because they are not referencing that they have used an AI model or a bot to generate that. If I use ChatGPT to generate a code or anything, and I mention that I have used ChatGPT to do this, it shouldn't be a problem, but if I don't do that, it means I'm trying to use that thing as my own and that is wrong. I understand it's plagiarism of a sort, but we currently don't have strict rules regarding it, hence this thread.

Those who say AI-generated content falls under the plagiarism rule in the forum rules (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0) list, I want to ask them the same question asked by LoyceV earlier. Why aren't users who are reported with evidence getting banned? If someone is found guilty of plagiarism and there is a rule against it, the person should get punished for that. Having their posts deleted and leaving them to keep doing what they have been doing isn't how it should be dealt with if it falls under a forum rule and they are breaking it again and again.

As an example, you can look at the post history of this guy (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=3616492;sa=showPosts), it's the same user that I referenced in the OP. I reported some posts from this user yesterday, all of them were AI-generated, and both I and LoyceV, reported him in the AI Spam Report Reference Thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5456516.msg64570042#msg64570042) but I upon checking his post history again today, I can see that the posts reported have been deleted but he did a few again after that, without getting any punishment for it. Why?

If this falls under plagiarism, the punishment should be the same for it, and if it doesn't, there should be a separate rule and punishment for it. That is the basic reason why I started this thread.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: lovesmayfamilis on September 26, 2024, 11:43:32 AM

If this falls under plagiarism, the punishment should be the same for it, and if it doesn't, there should be a separate rule and punishment for it. That is the basic reason why I started this thread.

I think it's also worth asking why they don't ban those who have plagiarism found, and it doesn't relate to AI. And only after that can we start talking about a complete ban on those who use AI to create posts.
Probably because the number of users on the forum is not increasing, the moderators are protecting everyone, hoping that people will respect the forum rules.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Vod on September 26, 2024, 08:23:17 PM
Did you know that websites like BPIP, Nintastic, ImgTalk, etc all use plagiarised code?   It's legal in the form of "packages", so why shouldn't AI content be legal as well?
The Open Source licenses allow this use, and (usually) allows you to make changes as long as you credit the original writers. By crediting them it's not plagiarism.

I don't believe that these websites are plagiarizing anything, even if they don't credit the thousands of authors on each project.    They are not changing the code, just using it.

One thing is for sure - the lawyers will make their money on changing terms alone.   Next time my word processor suggests "you are" instead of "your", I don't want to have to credit the software, or the people that wrote it.   :P


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: dkbit98 on September 26, 2024, 09:13:28 PM
Yes, but it's not clear plagiarism because the content is not taken from somewhere on the web, or a forum or anywhere, it's just generated through a bot and used as if it's written by the user himself.
This bots are not inventing that from thin air, they are using copy-pasting and combining what other human being wrote before in different websites.
Basically all AI bots are doing the same thing as a human who is doing plagiarism but than makes little changes and mistakes to make it more human-like and harder to detect for plagiarism.

Agreed. But why don't they all get banned instantly?
Because it's not always easy to detect them with high percentage of accuracy.

But AI is not plagiarism.  
Maybe only for people who are lazy and can't use their brain for thinking and fingers for typing.
If those AI bots open their source code you would found written source of every sentence and word written and copied from human beings.



Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Vod on September 26, 2024, 09:34:00 PM
Maybe only for people who are lazy and can't use their brain for thinking and fingers for typing.

I am humbled that the industry is spending billions to help me.  My left fingers are slow, and I can copy/paste much faster than typing.  :)


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: EarnOnVictor on September 27, 2024, 11:52:14 AM
I know that if we report AI-generated texts or content to moderators, they get deleted, and I also know that there is a thread for reporting AI-generated posts (I'm unable to find that thread at the moment, sorry), but, shouldn't there be an official rule in the unofficial list of forum rules (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0) against obvious AI-generated content and posts?
You mean you want an official rule for AI-generated content when the forum itself does not have an official rule that governs anything but unofficial ones? :) Regardless, I believe there is a reason for that, nevertheless, it's a good call to distinctively define the forum's view on AI-generated content.

For me, I am confused about this and might be the reason why the forum is silent about it after many reports about it. AI is being used in this advanced age where even reputable companies and educational sectors are mastering its work. Are they not? So, to take a side here is so technical. It's good that moderators have been doing a great job about it at their discretion and it's our duty to report more of such content that we suspect and give moderators the benefit of the judgmental doubt to deliver the right verdict.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Alone055 on September 27, 2024, 06:08:48 PM
This bots are not inventing that from thin air, they are using copy-pasting and combining what other human being wrote before in different websites.
Basically all AI bots are doing the same thing as a human who is doing plagiarism but than makes little changes and mistakes to make it more human-like and harder to detect for plagiarism.

Okay, let me ask you a question. If I read some information over the internet, I memorize it, and then I rewrite that information somewhere else with the same meaning but different wording, etc. Will that be plagiarism? I don't think so. The AI models do the same thing. They don't copy and paste exact words or sentences from other sources, they take information from the data that is fed to them, process that information, create a different version of it, and give it to you as a user asking for it.

The point is, that if you, as a user, take that information from ChatGPT and then post it as your own, you are doing a wrong thing because it's not your work.

There is one more thing. Experiment with ChatGPT just for reference. Create a prompt that would generate some text about anything you want, and use the same prompt with two different accounts or on two different devices. You will see that the answer might be the same by meaning but it won't be the exact same by wording.

Because it's not always easy to detect them with high percentage of accuracy.

What about the ones that are reported in threads with proofs and everything? If it's about AI-detecting websites or applications that mods might think aren't accurate, one can be wrong, if multiple detectors are giving the same results, that should prove it.

You mean you want an official rule for AI-generated content when the forum itself does not have an official rule that governs anything but unofficial ones? :)

Hey, you are probably confused about this, but let me tell you, the word "unofficial" in the title of Unofficial list of (official) Bitcointalk.org rules, guidelines, FAQ (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0) thread is an adjective used for the word "list". So it's basically saying that the list is unofficial but it's for the official (you can see it written in brackets in the title) forum rules.  :)


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: joker_josue on September 27, 2024, 07:21:22 PM
Did you know that websites like BPIP, Nintastic, ImgTalk, etc all use plagiarised code?   It's legal in the form of "packages", so why shouldn't AI content be legal as well?
The Open Source licenses allow this use, and (usually) allows you to make changes as long as you credit the original writers. By crediting them it's not plagiarism.

In programming things will be a little different.

First, as mentioned, a lot of content can be developed based on Open Source code. Some of this code requires credits to be given, others do not.

Second, the code generated by AI is public code, that is, no one can demand exclusivity. So, in certain cases it will be the same as using public code libraries. It is then up to whoever uses this code to validate, verify and analyze whether everything will be correct and functional. In the end, several details must be evaluated to understand whether or not the script can be considered yours.

One thing is certain, even the code generated by AI does not invalidate not having programming knowledge, otherwise you are exposed to many bugs.

Writing a text, 100% by AI, is something completely different. Because you don't need any specific level of knowledge for everything to "work".


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: CryptoHeadlineNews on September 27, 2024, 08:19:33 PM
Maybe only for people who are lazy and can't use their brain for thinking and fingers for typing.

I am humbled that the industry is spending billions to help me.  My left fingers are slow, and I can copy/paste much faster than typing.  :)
Lolz😃.. You actually sounds funny.


But however, using an A.I generated content is one thing that shouldn't be frown at, as it adds no value to forum discussion, since they are not genuine and coming from a user who has got experience, but simply robot. And as such, just as many people suggested, it's punishment should be treated just like that of "plagiarism" with a temporary or permanent banned, whereas if the account seems to have been of higher rank, you just red-tag the account with (i.e negative Trust), so as not to be able to partake in signature campaign ever again.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: DYING_S0UL on September 28, 2024, 03:05:23 AM
But AI is not plagiarism.

I disagree. Let's look at the definition (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/plagiarism):

Quote
an act or instance of using or closely imitating the language and thoughts of another author without authorization and the representation of that author's work as one's own, as by not crediting the original author

Oh, the definition card.   I trump that with the details card:  An AI does not have thoughts.   AI is a tool much like Grammarly or a typewriter.

(forgive the sarcasm, you know I love you)

I sometimes use similar tools like grammerly, quilbot (mostly) or a typewriter, when I'm writing a long post. (You know, just to make sure that there are no grammatical or punctual errors. :P). Does that makes my post a plagiarism? Umm, I don't think so. The content was originally mine, I just fixed it. 

afaik, if you are not the original author and don't mention the source, it will be plagiarism. AI is basically giving you content that you never wrote, and people are just using it as their own. So it's plagiarism.  :)



Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Vod on September 28, 2024, 05:31:27 AM
umm, I don't think so. The content was originally mine, I just fixed it. 

That's what AI does too.   The content is originally mine, it's just fixing it for me.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: LoyceV on September 28, 2024, 05:46:09 AM
In programming things will be a little different.

First, as mentioned, a lot of content can be developed based on Open Source code. Some of this code requires credits to be given, others do not.
If the code you use, edit and publish doesn't require to credit the original author, that's fine when it comes to copyright laws. But if you pretend you wrote all of it, it's still plagiarism.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: joker_josue on September 28, 2024, 07:50:51 AM
In programming things will be a little different.

First, as mentioned, a lot of content can be developed based on Open Source code. Some of this code requires credits to be given, others do not.
If the code you use, edit and publish doesn't require to credit the original author, that's fine when it comes to copyright laws. But if you pretend you wrote all of it, it's still plagiarism.

That is true.

But for a programmer to say that was simply ruining his career, because saying that he did something that in reality he is not capable of doing, is not very positive. It's better to say that you used a certain tool and receive credit for knowing how to use it very well, than in the end losing all credibility.



Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Vod on September 28, 2024, 08:42:21 AM
If the code you use, edit and publish doesn't require to credit the original author, that's fine when it comes to copyright laws. But if you pretend you wrote all of it, it's still plagiarism.

Open source code, which most of these packages are, give you full rights to edit without credit.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: LoyceV on September 28, 2024, 04:36:15 PM
Open source code, which most of these packages are, give you full rights to edit without credit.
I checked The MIT License (https://opensource.org/license/MIT), which is used by Bitcoin Core, and indeed, it only requires to include the License, not the credits. I didn't expect that.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Alone055 on September 28, 2024, 05:01:48 PM
That's what AI does too.   The content is originally mine, it's just fixing it for me.

Not specifically, only if you ask it for that. When you use a prompt to generate something (textual) from an AI model, the idea is yours, not the content.

What Grammarly or other tools do is correct your mistakes, for example, if I write, "He have a good sense of humor.", now, there is a mistake in my sentence, I'm supposed to use "has" with "He" because it's a third person singular and based on English grammar rules, we are supposed to use "has" with third person singular. Grammarly will show me the mistakes in my sentences and help me correct them. In this case, the written content is my own, but it's just helping me have no mistakes in it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using AI to rectify your mistakes or help you write your sentences in correct grammar. If a user is writing the content and then using an AI to correct the mistakes, there is nothing wrong with it, but if someone is generating the whole content using an AI model, and then passing it on as their own, that is wrong.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: joker_josue on September 28, 2024, 05:08:34 PM
Open source code, which most of these packages are, give you full rights to edit without credit.
I checked The MIT License (https://opensource.org/license/MIT), which is used by Bitcoin Core, and indeed, it only requires to include the License, not the credits. I didn't expect that.

It's true, using open source really allows you to do whatever you want with it, even if it means taking it as it is being sold.

I went to ask ChatGPT if it was considered plagiarism, using AI code in projects, and after a "conversation" he highlighted:
"1. AI-Generated Code is Original - AI-generated code is not a direct copy of other existing code unless it is explicitly asked to replicate something specific.
2. AI Acts as a Tool - Using AI to create code is similar to using other software development tools, such as frameworks, libraries, and code generators.
3. User Control and Supervision - The user has control over the generated code, guiding the process and refining solutions as needed. You are responsible for the logic, structure and final implementation, which means the end result is a co-creation under your direction. The final code is the result of your decisions and adjustments, with the AI ​​serving as a technical assistant."


I think point 3 is the key point in this issue. If the idea, supervision, guidance, analysis, adjustments are made by the person, then the final result belongs to that person.


But this logic can no longer be applied to the written text, without modifications. In the same "conversation", I asked what it would be like in the case of texts and the answer was:
"If you use an AI like ChatGPT to create text and submit it without modifications or without indicating that it was generated by an AI, the concept of plagiarism may apply depending on the context."


In short, using source code via AI is very different from using text.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: GeorgeJohn on September 28, 2024, 07:08:35 PM
For me AI generated content in forum fits nicely under rule number 33:
Quote
Posting plagiarized content is not allowed.

You can actually use AI generated text for something and post it in forum, but you should post it with quotes and add note that this text was generated with xyz AI.
Anything else is going to be considered as zero or low value post and cheating.
If detected post gets reported to mods.
Simple.
You have said it all, that AI rules should be under or considered as plagiarism, And many persons I have come across their cases concerning AI has been treating same way as plagiarised post is been treated..I have not seen any value why someone will put in quote of what it extracted with AI and post in the forum, since the post will look as low value post, i don't think it's needful, the only thing is that anyone that's been caught with AI post should face the consequences by the mods [ban he/her acct] and i think that will limit the rate of using artificial intelligent for forum, if many accts is been brought down, people will desist  using AI.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: The Sceptical Chymist on September 28, 2024, 08:19:00 PM
Yes, yes, a thousand times YES.

Members using AI to make posts should be permabanned just like they would if they plagiarized something.  And I know there are tools to detect AI usage, but I don't know how to use them and frankly I don't have the patience to scrutinize every post I think was generated or assisted by AI.  OP's example is pretty convincing, but every time I see a Newbie or Jr. Member either creating threads or just making posts in impeccable English, all the alarm bells go off in my head because I know such a phenomenon was almost unheard of prior to idiots gaining access to AI tools.  In other words, most new members' first language isn't English (and it's probably not even in the top five) and hasn't been for years.

The reason I think the punishment should be so harsh is that if this shit isn't nipped in the bud, bitcointalk is going to turn into a forum consisting of bots talking nonsense to each other and will have a flood of threads with moronic topics in which the OP doesn't really say much of anything.

Actually, has anyone checked out the Economics section lately?  Armageddon might have already arrived.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: Alone055 on September 28, 2024, 09:43:48 PM
OP's example is pretty convincing, but every time I see a Newbie or Jr. Member either creating threads or just making posts in impeccable English, all the alarm bells go off in my head because I know such a phenomenon was almost unheard of prior to idiots gaining access to AI tools.  In other words, most new members' first language isn't English (and it's probably not even in the top five) and hasn't been for years.

That's the basic way to detect that a post has been generated through an AI model. You can't expect someone having broken English in their previous posts which they possibly wrote themselves to become a completely perfect English writer in their latter posts which makes you realize that there is something wrong. The AI uses perfect punctuation, sentence starters as I mentioned in the OP, and most importantly, perfect grammar. Even a native speaker might make mistakes sometimes but AI doesn't, and that makes it easy to detect unless someone edits the text after generating it but those who can't write a few sentences themselves would barely have enough brain to do this.

The reason I think the punishment should be so harsh is that if this shit isn't nipped in the bud, bitcointalk is going to turn into a forum consisting of bots talking nonsense to each other and will have a flood of threads with moronic topics in which the OP doesn't really say much of anything.

That's why I suggested there should be an official rule about it, and if there isn't and AI content falls under plagiarism, the culprits should get the same punishment as plagiarizers.

Actually, has anyone checked out the Economics section lately?  Armageddon might have already arrived.

I do, every day, but you know what? Discussion boards are worse than that. Bitcoin Discussion is still better, but Altcoin Discussion is so full of spam and spammers that if you report one post, two more are posted.


Title: Re: Shouldn't there be a forum rule against obvious AI-generated content?
Post by: nakamura12 on September 28, 2024, 10:13:44 PM

That's different and shouldn't be punishable just as how you can provide reference with copied content and don't get punished for plagiarism.

It is the same as plagiarism since the one who posted it isn't the one who write it or who made it so it is possible to consider it as plagiarism although the data isn't taken from somewhere else so i'd say it is a partial plagiarism and not plagiarism at the same time. Since it is like that then it should just be considered as spam. Also, people would have to check it to see if it is AI generated or not at all. For punishment, I think restricting an account to post for a certain amount of time like unable to post for 1 day as an example.