Bitcoin Forum

Africa - promised land of Bitcoin?
Barbara Messer spoke to Tristan Winters http://africa.bitcoinwoman.com/index.php/articles/143-bitcoin-in-africa (http://africa.bitcoinwoman.com/index.php/articles/143-bitcoin-in-africa)

Micropayments and microloans have arguably their biggest impact in Africa.  Any countries that deal with outrageous remittance fees can be greatly helped by bitcoin, lots of African countries would fit this profile, especially as internet and smart phones continue to become more available there.

...

Other than the USA, my beat is Peru.  Hardly anyone there accepts BTC, nor even knows what they are...  Yet, all the young ones I saw (albeit in better parts of Lima, in general a big poor city) are running around poking on the smartphones just like here...

I agree that in countries that inefficient and corrupt, BTC has great potential, but IMO it will take a BUNCH of time.  Who in Africa will take your BTC for gold?

No one (among jewelers, etc.) I could find in Peru (in March) would take BTC.

My great uncle passed away in Nigeria.  Before he passed, he deposited $10,000,000.00 in a bank account there.  For a nominal fee of 1%, I will require your assistance in retrieving this balance.  Please send me your bank account information if interested in helping me recover this money.

(Isn't this about right?)

Africa?  No.  Africa doesn't have a good track record at adopting advances in technology or culture.

Peru and other South American countries?  I think that it is quite possible, but I think that a dose of pessimism is warranted.

There are three technologically and socially advanced countries that have high levels of inflation.  They are: The US, the UK, and Japan.  So these are the three countries where I expect Bitcoin to flourish.

...

I know a guy (from whom I bought BTC), who went to a BTC conference in Argentina a few months ago.  He told me that among the people he talked to (granted, likely to be all tekkies) the interest was huge...  Argentina has LOTS of problems, it is governed terribly by an incompetent blowhard Socialist (Cristina Kirchner).  So, BTC would enable many locals to avoid the currency restriction and other roadblocks their .gov lays in to block their citizens from financial protection...

Africa?  Yes.

There are already 3 companies working to replace the service used by 40 million people to send money via SMS.

Instead it will be sent by Bitcion.

Instant adoption by 40 million people.

Africa?  Yes.

-B-

The entire continent of africa only has a 2.5% of the world nominal GDP, less than that of italy.

Whether africa adapts bitcoin or not, is a non-factor.

Except possibly for the people of Africa who are currently paying outrageous transaction fees on MPesa.

I thought my statement was pretty clear, but to clarify - the people of africa benefits if they adapt bitcoin as a currency, but bitcoin benefits very little from adaption in africa, for the simple fact they just dont matter in the big picture of the world economy. Not to be mean, just stating the obvious.

USA, China, and EU is what matters to bitcoins.  So far china is the lowest/worst in term of bitcoin friendly, usa in the lower middle with the recent irs ruling, and EU is what i believe has the best chance to allow widespread adaption/usage to occur.

Times are changing.  Tons of initiatives are bringing the internet to new users everyday, and mobile adoption continues to skyrocket in poor countries.  Countries that have seen huge percentages of their GDP erased every year by predatory banking and money transmitting fees will not stand for this forever.  So Africa?  Yes.  Peru, Central, and South America as well.  The Philippines could be a potentially huge market with about half of their GDP coming from remittances.

You were clear and I agree with your assessment, if it were to come from the perspective of someone trying to make money off of consumerism.

But I thought what I said was pretty clear too. Just because it doesn't promise riches for you doesn't mean it is a non-factor to everyone. Africa could be a very interesting market for bitcoin. Just not a very profitable one for outside interests.

Well this is great to read.

You know this is what Bitcoin was mentioned to do? Help economy over the world!
Africa + Bitcoin = success ?
Perhaps yes, if Bitcoin will be growing stronger, one day it will completely change the world! :)
♥BTC

Interesting, is there further info on this?  My understanding is that in a lot of Africa smart phones are shared.  Is there a secure solution to this?

Oh they are, are they?  So they stopped hacking each others limbs off with machetes¹, raping infants², killing and eating short people³, and commiting genocide against white farmers⁴?

Oh I get it.... April 1st.  Ha ha you got me.

1: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2533828/Mutilated-machete-tragic-orphans-Africas-forgotten-war-A-truly-harrowing-dispatch-worlds-new-Heart-Darkness.html
2: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/18/africa-child-rape-crisis_n_3103558.html
3: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2933524.stm
4: http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html

I said more people there are getting internet and mobile, not that it was a fun place to go on vacation you muppet

More than a bit interesting.

I'll be keeping my eye on this thread.

My $.02.

;)

Big adoption in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos wouldn't surprise me.

They use a non-fiat currency already, the $US for most of their transactions. By non-fiat I mean it is not fiat to that country.

So they could move over to any currency, including BTC.

I also noticed travelling through these countries how well connected they are. Wifi is everywhere and it is free. So someone with a cheap smart phone can get free access fast enough to send/receive transactions from their phone.

Africa is coming out of the dark ages in some areas. Let's start them off right. Bitcoin rather than fiat.

:)

"in some areas" That is somewhat more believable.  Could you list some of these places?  I am genuinely curious, and also a bit sceptical.  It seems like a lot of people genuinely think that Africa as a whole is someday (soon!) going to be something other than.... Africa.

Introducing Bitcoins to the people of Central African Republic, and to Mozambique people, would start to take the funding away from the militaries that are trying to enslave the people.

:)

So you have nothing more than wishful thinking?  Yeah, it would be great if these places started using bitcoin.  That doesn't mean that they will.

First you should check whether the people living in those nations can afford a Bitcoin storage device (such as PCs, Smartphones.etc).

Check this:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=553693

Some nice progress made in Africa!!

I find it interesting and very telling that those in the First World countries are so quick to discount those in the Third.

I hope that my brothers and sisters in Africa will keep a close watch on my posts as I suspect we may have a great future together.

Although the wolf is my totem animal I wish to become possessed of the Spirit of The Lion as well.

My $.02.

;)

I was in  Vietnam recently.   Maybe street merchants use USD  bills but not the established shops that accept credit cards

99% of them can't afford a smartphone. But it will not prevent them from using BTC services for sending / receiving remittances.

Exactly and just one of the ways in which Bitcoin can be brought to Africa.

Do not deny the continent.

Africa is The Mother and Father of Humankind.

My $.02.

;)

How successful is the new BTC remittance service?

Right now, it is quite popular among the Kenyans because of the low fees. Soon it'll get more popular across the whole continent.

And those of us smart enough to relaise that Africa is an untapped resource from which both Africans and those with whom Africans affiliate can profit will never know want.

Bitcoin can bring true change to Africa.

My $.02.

;)

I counter that. I live in Africa (Tanzania) and everybody is using M-Pesa here, which is in many regards more close to Bitcoin, in how you use it, than you might think. Check it out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa

It is used widely in Kenia as well and if M-Pesa would be a bank (it isn't though), it would be the biggest in Kenia.

So, in my opinion Africans are quite inventive - e.g. when it comes to recycling waste into new things - and most now also have smart phones in the big cities.
If they will adapt a new technology is not entirely predictable of course, same as in other countries. Who would have anticipated Cyprus for instance.

Why these racist statements? Can you pls change over to the respective Ku Klux Klan reddit!

All those cruelties you mention have been committed by Western (white) people to huge extents the past 200 years. Burning witches, genocides (e.g. read the history of the Kongo, the Maomao rebellion, war against native Americans, Australian Aborignes, etc.).
The links you quote: Would you think the Daily Mail and the BBC might have an interest to portrait Africans as savages during this second wave of (re)colonization that Africa is currently experienceing?

Dude, think first and travel a bit more. This helps to get rid of some serious prejudices.

Wow... I thought that M-Pesa was limited to Kenya. This is really good news!

Well, bitcoin only leaves in internet and Africa and internet connection...

Sraosha, it is nice to hear from someone who actually lives in Africa.  Many Westerners have a very romanticized view of Africa, so hopefully you can give us some good information.



Is the truth racist?  These are things that are happening now or that have happened recently in Africa.  I realize that Africa is a huge continent filled with a wide variety of people in a wide variety of situations.  However, taken as a whole, Africa is undeniably dysfunctional.

There haven't been any Western witch burnings in the last 200 years.  Cannibalism?  While there have been isolated incidents of cannibalism (mostly by criminally insane people) there has never been a time in Western history where one group of people hunted down and ate another group in order to gain magical powers.

Westerners have committed genocide but it was almost always against non-Western people, which means that Westerners do not have to worry about being subject to it, and thus are not subject to the societal disruption that it brings.  This brings me to another point: how come Africa is always the one being invaded?  How come they don't get into ships and invade South America?  It is because they can't.

Furthermore, this discussion has been going on for a couple of days now.  Only now does an African (you) chime in.  How come this discussion hasn't been dominated by Africans from the beginning?  The answer to my question is that there are very few Africans on this forum.  Are they all on an African bitcoin forum instead?  Or are there just not that many Africans into bitcoin?

I'm just asking people to work with the facts that we have instead of fantasizing.  Hopefully you can bring us more information.

It is interesting that you point out that I do not know much about Africa (which is true, I don't know much about Africa) but you didn't point out the extreme ignorance of the people who think that bitcoin will do well in Africa.  They are living in a fantasy world, and it is their fantasies that are harmful to Africans.

Think about it for a moment.  Who is more likely to attempt to colonize Africa?  Someone like me who doesn't think much of Africa, or someone like LostDutchman who says things like "Do not deny the continent.  Africa is The Mother and Father of Humankind."  To people like him Africa is an opportunity, something to fantasize about, something to reshape (destroy) when it doesn't meet expectations.  As the saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Think of Liberia.  Because of optimism Americans invaded and send freed slaves to colonize the place.  The freed slaves then enslaved the locals.

"Think about it for a moment.  Who is more likely to attempt to colonize Africa?  Someone like me who doesn't think much of Africa, or someone like LostDutchman who says things like "Do not deny the continent.  Africa is The Mother and Father of Humankind."  To people like him Africa is an opportunity, something to fantasize about, something to reshape (destroy) when it doesn't meet expectations.  As the saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"."

Stuff and nonsense!

Stop trying to think FOR me; you don't do a very good job of it. 

In a sense, Africa is being thrust kicking and screaming into the 21st Century, at least some parts of the huge continent.  There is a Helluva lot more to Africa than jungle, desert and the bush.

Over one billion people live in Africa and you are essentially discounting them and that is just fine with me.

Afica does not need people who think like you.

Your attitude reeks of colonialism and imperialism, both of which have been tried in Africa and didn't work out so well.

I suggest and seek cooperation, not the re-imposition of failed policies.

My $.02.

;)

I agree, although I would love to be the one who brings Bitcoin to Africa, I think it is far more likely to take off in Central America. I traveled to Guatemala and noticed that even the mountain coffee farmers knew how to use phones and purcahse reloads - culturally, central america is better than most places in Africa.

In terms of economics, it can help both areas, many central american countries and african countries have horrible inflation rates. If you consider north africa the past few years after the Arab spring, most people lost their valued assets. Even egypt has something along the lines of ~11-15% real inflation.

yes. 

also, the smartphones we throw away now are likely being recycled in developing countries.  Mozilla has s $25usd smartphone in the works.

don't look at smartphones now:  look at what will happen to smartphones in the emerging markets 1-5 years from now. 

There would be benefits in PR. It would make for better media stories than the Silk Road did. Also, it would create a market for Bitcoin-related services and a proving-ground for Bitcoin-related technologies.

Those are the countries that need Bitcoin least, where it is likely to be least important, because they already have a good financial infrastructure.

Excellent point. Bitcoin can benefit common people in the under-developed world much more than those in the developed nations.

I just got back from Kenya a few weeks ago. While I was there I noticed the heavy use of mpesa. My wife uses it several times a week to pay bills or send her parents money. One time while out, she wanted to get something to drink, but we discovered that neither one of us had any money. I was expecting to just home, but she says "no problem", walks into one of many phone card stores with an mpesa sign (several on every block), talks to the gal, does something with her phone, the gal hands her 500 shillings and now we have some money.

There is a problem with mpesa though. Many transactions (not all) are heavily taxed. The government is starting to see mpesa as a gravy train and since it is centralized, there is nothing to stop them from raising taxes more and more. I think this may eventually push the population towards Bitcoin.

I rode with her one day to her job in Nairobi early in the morning. The bus was mainly young professionals going to work and I noticed that almost every one of them was using an android type smart phone. My wife has both a regular phone and an android phone. The productivity increase of having a cell phone more than pays for itself.

There is a money exchange place in downtown Nairobi where you can exchange bitcoins for fiat.

I have a buddy who has been to Africa several times. He wants to move there, and he will make it, I believe. His wife is loving the idea.

I didn't realize that Africa was this extremely into Bitcoin, "There is a money exchange place in downtown Nairobi where you can exchange bitcoins for fiat." Now that I know, I might go with him, and he might go sooner.

:)

Here is one of the companies.   

http://www.mobilepaymentstoday.com/article/216119/M-PESA-meets-Bitcoin-with-new-service-in-Kenya

Lets Talk Bitcoin podcast played an interview with the creator of this service, and he went into a lot of the details they're working out with the government.

There is another company doing the exact same thing that I ran across on Facebook awhile back.  They hadn't heard of Kipochi, but now they know.

Google for more info.

-B-

Maybe bitcoins will  recieve mass adoption in s.africa and other newly developed countries

There already is a South African fiat to Bitcoin online exchange.

It will be great if Bitcoin gets really popular in rich African countries such as Gabon and RSA. However, at the moment the strongholds seems to be East Africa (esp. Kenya and Tanzania, due to Kipochi).

Africa might be a good place for bitcoins since they are already have an advanced money-transmitting industry in at least one or two countries, But I doubt the public demand for it there would be high enough.

Africa is and will continue to be a great place for crytp to develop.

Although computer use may be lower than in other areas, those who have internet service will gravitate to Bitcoin and certain alts.

Be prepared to profit.

My $.02.

;)

Yep, this will do good for the silk road  ;D

This I have not heard of, any chance you have more details? Or can you visit it one day? Is it just a few random people who have bitcoin or is it like a business/kiosk?

It makes sense to me.  Consider this, that there are many African countries that have highly mismanaged centralized banks and unstable and corrupt political leadership.   Assuming that bitcoin grows to become a significant world currency, then bitcoin would make a lot of sense in developing economies on the continent.

Good points and valid ones at that!

My $.02.

;)

Why? Do you think that Africans are potential SR 2.0 customers?

I guess it makes intuitive sense that africa would adopt bitcoin because the existing financial system is more problematic than in rich countries so bitcoin is immediately more competitive.

After the events of 2008, where private institutional banking extorted the elected government of the United States to socialize their losses (while retaining private profits, not going to jail, giving themselves bonuses, and running scams with T-bills) incurred by selling toxic, bullshit financial instruments to the rest of the world,  I think the most problematic banking system in the world is obvious.  It's not in Africa.

I'm working on a short documentary, filmed over two weeks in Kenya. The question is 'Whether Bitcoin Can Help The Unbanked'. Here's the trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mafU305mVXY

So let's start another hype about africa and bitcoin....

But first , let's remember this...
http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/one-third-of-kenyans-now-have-a-bitcoin-wallet

And the hype about Kipochi

And the ...0.

Let's stop with this india , africa , venezueala , south america , peru  non-sense.
Bitcoin will grow in the countries where there is the infrastructure already in place and where average citizens have enough money to spend it daily , not for safekeeping them from lions.

What's wrong in that? Millions of Kenyans do use Kipochi.

LOL, do you have some proof to back that up?

Pelle's (Kipochi founder), comment on the article:
http://youtu.be/mafU305mVXY?t=1m21s

A comment on a video from the owner or a 1,2 million alexa rank for the website?

I have seen posts by dozens of bitcoin users from Kenya and Tanzania here in Bitcointalk. They seems to be very impressed by Kipochi / M-Pesa.

I have seen far more by chinese people , that would lead to billions of chinese using bitcoin , right?
You claimed millions are users of kipochi...why? From millions to dozens ... it's quite a difference.

Read my post again. I said that I have seen posts by dozens of people here.

I think the crypto situation in China is going to be a mess, so for those seeking to do business offshore (Away from the USA, that is!) Africa is will be a better bet.

My $.02.

;)

Yup , and why do you claim millions are using kipochi?  Where did you get those numbers?

My source is Bitcoin users from Kenya & Tanz. I have seen their posts.

Then please quote them here , with the bold "millions" :)))